The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gun Cleaning Forum No brush cleaning?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I have bought a Sako A7 and to my surprise they recommend not to use brushes for cleaning. How can a bore be cleaned without scrubing? My routine is to use two wet patches followed by dry ones. Next I use a tight fitting bronze brush saturated in solvent and work it back and forth, 1/4 turn at the end of every pass(5-6 total). It brings out a decent amount of crud what the patches couldn't do on their own. Is it something new, or I am just being too old fashioned? What damage a slow moving brush can do what a piece of copper/led barreling down under tremendous pressure at 2700fps can't? | ||
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I tend to not use a brush in some of my long range match rifles, Krieger,Douglas, etc., for find it not necessary to clean. I think the thought behind not using the brush is some of the bronze brushes can tend to scratch the bore or at least that is what I have been told. Many will definitely not use a brush in stainless steel barrels. Basic two ways to clean the bore and one is mechanical(brush) and other chemical(solvent.) If you permit the solvent to remain in the barrel for some minutes, give it time to do it's chemical magic, wouldn't think you would need a brush to get it suffeciently clean. If it is building copper, you can use Sweet's, but I don't use that unless absolutely necessary and in chrome moly barrels don't let it sit more than a few minutes-for me 10 minutes is about all I let it sit in there. Some say stainless is not a problem with Sweet's, but I am not so sure about that. You have a quality rilfe/barrel and would not think it would foul or copper that much to need a brush applied?? One thing whether brush or patch w/solvent, I have been taught to not pull either back and forth through the bore for by doing so you are dragging some of the fouling back into the bore. Push all the way through and remove patch or brush. Just a suggestion. PS I am guessing but I would venture the bullet jacket/copper is quite a bit softer than the material used in the brush?? | |||
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If no brushing worked I would be the first in line to do it. The bore scope does not support the no brush method with what it reveals unfortunately. Have never had a brush “scratch” the bore ever. | |||
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I've always found that no matter which wonder solvent I patch the bore out with a quick pass of the bronze brush moves 2 or 3 times the amount of dirt than the patching ever got out. I think brush free cleaning might work for some people and with some rifles but I'm pretty sure that they aren't getting anything more than a surface layer of dirt out of their rifle. Recently I took to my rifle with the bronze brush, it had only been patched out for some time, and a selection of solvents and was amazed at the amount of dirt that came out. Unfortnuately I was also amazed at the change in my POI and it took me 50 rounds to get back where I started. So, I'm not saying that brushing, or patching, are a good or bad thing but I do believe that you need to get into a cleaning method that works for you and to stick to it. | |||
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I have always used bronze brushes in all my rifles (and shotguns). Have not noticed any disadvantages. Have both SS and blue steel barrels to clean. But don´t use anymore those strong ammonia solvents. Instead use today and in future M-Pro 7 and KG-12. No smell and thinking/hoping they are less harmful to barrels. Anyhow they clean as well if not better and/or easier. | |||
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I used to use bronze brush and Sweets and the Barnes stuff - heavy on amonia, and always just hated the stuff. I do believe that I ruined one of my best barrels, a Lilja, with Sweets when I forgot it was soaking and let it stay there overnight. About two years ago I discovered the new copper removing stuff that has almost no smell, and no amonia. The one that I have used the most is the foaming type. It removes copper fouling much better than Sweets ever did and it doesn't hurt the barrel if left in overnight. There are several brands, some foam and others not. So, I swab with hoppies and squirt some of the foaming stuff in the barrel, wait a while, then flush with muzzel down using some of the Birchwood scrubber/degreaser, followed by a dry patch. I may have to repeat once more, but so far, the copper in the rifleing is gone with two apps, as far as I can see down the barrel with a flashlight. On my CM barrels, I usually follow up with an oily patch, and sometimes on the SS barrels, I just leave it dry. I haven't used a brush for two years, and unless I learn something new, or figure I'm doing it wrong, I have no intentions of ever using a brush again. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I just do not think you can get a barrel totally clean with out some kind of "scrubbing". After a fairly extensive test, with a bore scope, the easiest and quickest way to get a barrel totally clean is with J&B Bore Paste, mixed with Prolix, then flushed out with Prolix. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Wipe Out!! and patches for me. **************** NRA Life Benefactor Member | |||
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I also use Wipeout for copper removal only . I don't think it removes anything else effectively. After 1st Wipeout I do a Shooter's Choice brush cleaning. The second Wipeout brings nearly as much copper out as the first one. | |||
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I don't know about this totally clean business. For one thing I'm not sure it's totally necessary. There's a lot about this that I don't know - so there - go ahead and say I don't know what I'm talking about. It's ok if you think so. The only tools I have for inspecting a bore is a flashlight and my eyeballs. Obviously I can see only so far down the barrel from the muzzel end. So, if I see copper in the groves near the muzzel, I have to presume that is representative of the whole bore. So, when I don't see copper near the muzzel, likewise. Cleaning by the method I described above readily removes all traces of copper as far as I can see down the bore. The carbon and stuff comes out pretty good with hoppes. The solvent stuff I spray down the bore also removes crud. I figure as long as what's left doesn't corrode the bore, then why worry about it. If I go back to using a brush, it will be a nylon or similar material brush, for removing carbon and stuff other than copper. It seems to me the biggest affect on accuracy will be copper buildup, and whatever little other residue is in there won't matter - as far as accuracy is concerned. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Since a couple of years I only use nylon brushes and KG1; seldom Wipeout and JB paste twice a year. It's fine for me, since I don't feel the need to get a 101% clean bore each time. Nevertheless, I believe that some sort of brushing/mechanical cleaning is needful | |||
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Bronze brush is gonna scratch a steel barrel???? That ain't a turnip truck outside.  I buy bronze brushes by the dozens. The nylon ones are nice too 'cause you can use them with your copper cleaner. +1 on the JB paste. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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I think it's a bit ridiculous to think a bronze or nylon brush is going to scratch a barrel considering that tightly fitting hunks of copper and/or lead are blasted down it at many hundreds of feet per second. Stainless steel brushes are a different matter; since they're harder I wouldn't use them. That said, I now rarely use brushes and I do periodically get my barrels meticulously clean without the help of any brushing. Wipe Out is my usual cleaning agent though KG-12 works and I'll sometimes use ammonia type solvents on stainless steel barrels. | |||
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Grum makes a very good point. Anyone who relies on the brushless wonder cleaners 100% of the time is living in a fool's paradise and without a bore scope. Wipe out will not remove stubborn fouling in my rifles says my bore scope. If you go hunting and fire 3 or 4 shots a trip and then go home and have the time to let the stuff sit in the barrel for 24 hours it MAY get the barrel clean enough for you. I don't have that kind of time between relays in a match and I fire a lot more rounds than that per relay. Granted that custom match barrels have very few if any tool marks or hiccups in the rifling, you may still accumulate serious fouling when shooting ten rounds of score plus however many sighters in a relay. So, I pay a lot of attention to what match winners say they use to clean their rifles. If any cleaning method can be said to be truly brushless AND effective it is JB bore cleaner and its partner JB bore bright. If you use a nylon brush during the pre JBing part of the cleaning it works better and faster. If you think JB wears your bore--you need to be involved in some other hobby like painting or paper doll cutting. If you are not sure how to use it Brownell's has a very good article on the proper use of JB in their tech help section. My only quibble with Brownell's version is that I don't like Parker Hale jags and have used spear jags for years with JB and have squeaky clean barrels to show for it. You may have to experiment with patches to get the fit just right in various bores, but I don't think you can go wrong using Butch's triple twill patches that are one size up from your caliber when using JB. Also, gun freaks smarter than me have said that probably 75% of shooters use patches ineffectively in rifles because they think they are too tight. I would have said 90% but I'm a pessimist. There is another good article on Brownell's tech help site that will help people select and use patches correctly. I mention this because I was told by more than one person who knows how to clean a gun that Butch makes the best patch and I've also been told by more than one tyro that he did not like using my Butch's patches because they never got the gun clean--they just kept pulling out more snot from the barrel and they were hard to push through and --more whining about their never before close to clean barrels................ If the enemy is in range, so are you. - Infantry manual | |||
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I will add that when I did a bore cleaning test on 14 different rifles at the same time, using a Hawkeye bore scope, shooting each rifle at least 40 rounds a day, some of them over a hundred rounds a day, and ersonally cleaning them each night using 3 different methods that J&B mixed with Prolix was the fastest way to get the barrel 100% clean. Chemicals will work, given enough applications, time and brushing. It takes less strokes with the J&B to get the barrres totally clean. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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You have spoken the truth here-----I use Iosso Paste and the Iosso Oil vs the J&B. Just a personal preference for me as that is what my builder uses who is also a HOF Shooter prefers. Do not know if you have tried Iosso but if you have how do they compare on carbon ring removal----that always takes the longest time to remove when I show one of my hunting buddies what condition their “supposedly clean” barrel is in lol? | |||
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The gunsmith (Steve Kostanich) who built my long range varmint rifles and HBR rifle told me to never put a brush in an accurate barrel. After each relay he ran a patch soaked in Quicksilver Top End Cleaner, had me deprime and reprime my cases, and ran a second one thru while I charged those cases and seated a bullet. He told me to then run two dry patches thru and get back to the line. After a days shooting was over, he said to run some Sweets thru and then a patch with Hoppes Old #9 and leave it. Quicksilver before the next match and go happy. I fired over 2000 150gr Sierra Matchkings in competition that year, at nineteen HBR matches all across the Pacific Northwest in TCL competition. The TCL is a postal match nationwide, you go to a registered match and shoot. The Top Five scores are entered for the club. I had a Top Five at every match but one. I finished in a three-way tie for seventh place, and won on X-count. I also won the Oregon State HBR Championship Matches, 100 hundred yard (0n X-count), 200 yard (on X-count again) and the Grand Aggregate (three way tie, but won on X-count). It was probably my best day ever shooting in HBR competition. At the end of the year I had the barrel taken off and Bore Scoped. Aside from a teensy bit of scouring at the throat, it looked new. That convinced me. The EPA got rid of Quicksilver, but GM Top End Cleaner works as well. It lifts the copper fouling along with the carbon, great stuff. Rich DRSS | |||
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"never put a brush in an accurate barrel" I will agree that custom barrels are much "slicker" than factory barrels. (If they're not, you need to change provider) And they collect much less copper and their hold on it is much less tenuous but my simple question is: What is wrong with using a brush? What damage does it do? What is the reasoning? Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Just drag a new brush across your forearm and let me know how that works. After you get the bleeding stopped and put a bandage on it. Option B: go buff a piece of any sort of steel as shiny as you can with a buffer. Then drag the brush across it, as close to the amount of pressure as it takes to push that brush down a barrel and back. Those fine scratches are what you are doing to your barrel. Say ten to twelve laps each time. Rich been there, done that... | |||
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My forearm isn't made of chrom moly steel. Nor is a bronze brush. I have my doubts about the brush causing scratches on a piece of burnished steel. If by some wild possibility the bronze brush could scratch the steel, I daresay the scratches would be so minute that the barrel would be long shot out before they would be significant. Don't get me wrong, clean your rifle anyway you want. I just don't see any reasoning for not useing a brush. but then, I don't break in barrels either. BTW, good shooting. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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did you try Option B, or are you just talking? You exert over 30ft/lbs of torque to push a proper size brush thru a barrel. Rich | |||
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Did I TRY option B??? Oh hell yes, I've nothing to do except hang around the shop shining on a piece of steel. Sorry, requesting reverse proof don't work. As I said, IF the bronze brush were to leave scratches, they would be insignificant compared to a bronze bullet traveling down the bore at warp speed followed by a blast of super heated gas. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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My cleaning technique followes Kenny Jarret's recommendation in his news letter ( early/mid 90's). I t was a rather detailed set of practical information. I wonder what was his take on cleaning nowadays. | |||
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Gunsmiths are people too and so can be wrong--that one probably forgot that there are some very effective nylon brushes made by folks like Dewey and Hoppe's. I use the Dewey brush every time I shoot any of my BR rifles. I don't think a bronze brush is going to harm my expensive custom barrels, in fact, I have seen that they do not through the use of the borescope--but I don't want false copper traces on the patches which you can get after using a bronze brush. I don't have time between relays to go back in the middle of my cleaning routine and explore for copper, especially if there is none. Shootaway might like to try some JB bore brite bore polish--it works quite well. Lots of BR shooters use it, especially between relays, to keep the bore slickly polished. If the enemy is in range, so are you. - Infantry manual | |||
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Actually, it doesn't scratch the steel. I just tried it on a super polished knive blade. This is consistent with what I predicted would happen based on the relative hardness of steel and bronze. If your brush doesn't have abrasive debris imbeded in it, it won't scratch steel. Wes | |||
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As to whether to brush or not to brush is up to the individual, but might mention that the knife blade is most likely more than twice as "hard" as barrel steel and not likely to show scratches. Folks more in the know than I can verify, but believe most barrels are something on the order of 20plus on the rC scale and your knife blade may well be above 50??. I think the primary thought behind not using a brush on a regular basis stems from those w/ high quality barrels, as in match shooters, and in an effort to retain as much perfection in the bore as possible won't use a brush for fear of damage over time. Avid bench shooter friend of mine always cautions me not to use a "bore snake" for he believes the brush part is of much harder nature than a standard bore brush?? Truth of the matter more barrels are often damaged more by over cleaning than shooting. Unless the bore is really rough, and some are, it is not necessary to scrub the bore down to the bare metal and in fact a bit of fouling acutally is a plus. Few long range match shooters begin a match with an absolutely clean bore. Sighters serve not only to get the gun on target, but also fouls a bit which is desireable. | |||
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I always begin a 1K match with a pristine bore and I win more than I lose. It is always about knowing your tubes and your program. When I load for a new tube for my 6.5x284 for example there is never more than .2 or .3 gr difference in the load but I use the same tubes prepared the same way. It would take several pages to type out the other processes utilized BUT it always involves starting from a pristine bore. This is the only condition that one can replicate consistently. I use Iosso with the plastic Iosso brush when the final cleaning is being performed. Sweets and Butches with phosphor bronze brushes with Lucas Bore Guides are required for cleaning during the days match. Depending on the shoot offs and other games going on I have been known to Iosso again depending on what I am seeing on paper. Never would I even consider cleaning a bore without a Bore Guide! | |||
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Just curious, what type of matches are you referring to at 1000yds?? | |||
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In the FWIW dept: I think the old saw about more barrels ruined by cleaning than by shooting was started back before bore guides and most cleaning was done from the muzzle. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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IBS Benchrest | |||
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I totally disagree. I've seen far more "Pitted" Bores due to inadequate or no cleaning than I have ever seen harmed by a cleaning rod or a brush. For those of you who believe it is a great concept to keep your Bores "Fouled", it is just a matter of time and humidity before the Pits begin forming. And you do not have to believe me, you will find out for yourself "if" you ever clean them properly. Even if you can not see the Pits, you will know they are there if it takes a bunch of shots for the Groups to settle down. So, best of luck to you folks. Completely agree! I'm primarily concerned about the very first shot to leave the barrel from a Pristine Clean and Lightly Lubed condition. By Lightly Lubed, I mean wiping the Bore with a Moly Lube and them following with a couple of dry Paper Patches to remove any excess. When that is done, there will be no Pits and I can count on the Bullet going exactly where I want it to go. In honor of this thread, I just ordered and received a couple of new MTM Bore Brush Boxes and a whole bunch of Montana Extreme Bore Brushes.  Good Bore Scrubbing to you all! | |||
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Boss Hoss, Do you have opportunity to shoot sighters in such matches or is it done "first shot, cold barrel?" | |||
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Glass and stainless steel are two different surfaces--but if you wish to compare apples and oranges I will tell you in no uncertain terms that there are compounds like the "new" rainex glass polish that WILL fix pitted and/or scratched glass. We use then in the NW a lot. I use them; come and see. There are also others that work well. JB bore shine does restore the shine to barrels--if you ever really had it-- and if you are talking about factory barrels you never did--and you can prove it by the use of a borescope. Let's get a few things straight. If someone tells you what does and does not clean a barrel and he has no borescope for you to look and actually SEE for your self that it is so--or not---that person is not to be believed-- if you do-- you are a fool--there is no two ways about it. If someone tells you that a soft metal will scratch and ruin a hard metal --flying in the face of hundreds of years of proof otherwise by repeatable science--that person is a fool--and if you believe him--you are an idiot and should not be allowed to own and handle firearms. Borescopes are now inexpensive enough that anyone truly interested in precision shooting and accuracy with the brains of a small appliance lightbulb can and will buy one. Unfortunately, things that go bang and make smoke are highly attractive to idiots and fools. This is one reason the anti-gun nuts continue to flourish............. If the enemy is in range, so are you. - Infantry manual | |||
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We get all sorts of rifles through our shooting range. Some are stainless, and some are with blued barrels. I have been trying to see if I can get an idea which barrel is susceptable to Sweet causing the patches to come out rusty. I am afraid we have not arrived at an answer. Last week, we shot several rifles, all had stainless barrels. And we cleaned them using Sweet's. Only one, a Winchester Model 70, in 300 Weatherby Magnum, is the one which seems not to like Sweets. The patch would come out brown after a few minutes. Right next to it, we had two rifles. A Weatherby Mk V in 257 Weatherby with a stainless fluted barrel, and a Winchester HB blued barrel in 300 Winchester Magnum. Neither of these seem to mind Sweet's at all. So we are still scratching our heads why some barrels seem to be affected while others are not. | |||
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Since you obviously have all the answers -- I have no bore scope, but I have a small flashlight, which I use to observe the amount of copper fouling in the bore generally along the lands, as far as I can see from the muzzel. The bigger the bore, the further I can see down the bore. Now obviously this stuff shines pretty good and is readily visable without the use of a bore scope. Likewise, the absence of copper fouling is readily visable too, since its color is obvious. Now granted I can't see the whole bore, and I'm making the presumption that the portion I can see closely represents the rest of the barrel. So, you think I can't be relied upon when I say that no scrub cleaning works, when I can see the copper and carbon vanish, in the sample area that I can see by just using a flashlight? Are you saying that because I can't see the rest of the barrel, my opinion re the part of the barrel that I can see is invalid? I've been relying on my old eyes for a long time, so it will be a shock to learn that I can't trust what I see anymore. Are you a bore scope salesman? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I think you're both kinda right although I must say I found Amamnn's presentation rather insulting to those of us with light bulb sized brains that like stuff that goes bang. As a rule, if someone has to prove his point by name calling and general abuse, the bang sound he hears is people's minds closing against what he has to offer. Whether it's correct or not. Rifles were being cleaned (and bench records being set) long before bore scopes came along. I'm not doubting the value of one however I too use a light to look at my bore. I have one of the little thingies that has the flex tip. And I look at the bore from both ends as I think that copper fouling gets progressively less toward the muzzle. On my target rifles, I try to avoid any traces of copper but I find it hard to believe that a trace amount affects the rifle's accuracy. Let's face it, after the first shot, the bore has a sheen of copper in it. As I clean my rifles, I can "feel" the rifle getting clean. When I reach a point where the patch glides thru the barrel, if I use my primative light method of inspection, I usually find the barrel is clean. Or very close to it. One would think that a bore scope would be an effective tool to establish a cleaning regimen but once the regimen is set, I can't see any further "got to have" use for it. I would certainly never use what I could see thru a bore scope to decide to change a barrel. I would determine that on the firing line. I understand that many bench shooters begin each season with a new barrel or change barrels on a time or total shots schedule but that is another unique thing about them that doesn't apply to the real world. Assuming that one has the intellect of a small light bulb. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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If this makes you feel better then so be it---was in your position years ago then I watched Speedy check too many tubes that were "clean" according to the owner. The bore scope is a very valuable tool for those of us who are serious about accuracy. I have many tubes and sometimes will change calibers while at a match 6.5x284 to 338 Lapua AI for example (Python with 2 bolts). Always have my scope with me to see what is going on inside if needed. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by wasbeeman: I found Amamnn's presentation rather insulting to those of us with light bulb sized brains that like stuff that goes bang. As a rule, if someone has to prove his point by name calling and general abuse, the bang sound he hears is people's minds closing against what he has to offer. Whether it's correct or not./QUOTE] I have been shooting and cleaning rifles over the last nearly fifty years and dont need a bore scope (or arrogance and insults) to tell me when my barrels are clean. Von Gruff. | |||
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Mercy!! There are some very strong opinions, beliefs, etc. regarding the practice of using or not using wire brush to clean a bore. If one beieves using a brush is absolutely necessary, then have at it and same goes for using a bore scope(Hawkeye, have ready access to one) but I hardly think that saying one is a "fool" for not doing what someone else does is definitely on the harsh side and a poor choice of words in this situation. My whole point for mentioning that some do not advocate use of the brush in their rifles is that their rifles clean up readily and with little or no copper fouling. The matches I participate in are Long Range NRA classification type and round count can be near 100 including sighters in a relatively short period of time. Can say that the bores of my Krieger barrels or Douglas show little copper after such steady firing in a match. As for the bore being pristine clean at a match, unless you have no sighters, the sighters will foul the barrel somewhat and there went the so called pristine bore concept. Some of the matches allow two sighters, some 5, and some give you twenty minutes to fire 20 rounds plus sighters in 30 minutes. My fouled bore is not the reason I do not shoot a "clean" target at matches, but the "trigger puller" and my natural point of aim, sling tension, head position,light conditions(receiver sights,) and so on. If a "super clean" bore works for others, God Bless and go for it!! | |||
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