quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I have.

Wipe Out = no copper

R,

BTW...my bottle of Paul Co. Patch-Out arrived today from Brownell's...see I am open minded.

Gonna give it a try.

500N on the DR forum just told me I had ruined my Double Rifle by cleaning it one time with Sweets (as per bottle instructions that is). I still don't buy that one.

I guess I've got to get some of the damn stuff. What's the difference between wipeout and patchout???
(I still ain't tossing my arsenal of Shooter's and Butche's and Shooter's Choice and Remington and Hoppe's Bench Rest, etc)

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I have.

Wipe Out = no copper

R,

BTW...my bottle of Paul Co. Patch-Out arrived today from Brownell's...see I am open minded.

Gonna give it a try.

500N on the DR forum just told me I had ruined my Double Rifle by cleaning it one time with Sweets (as per bottle instructions that is). I still don't buy that one.

You'll like the Patch Out. I use it in conjuction with the Accelerator. I actually use the foaming Wipe Out with the Accelerator as well.

My cleaning process is as follows. I have verified it by scoping my bores when done to get a good handle on "how much cleaning is enough".

1. Get back from the range after shooting anywhere from 60 to 80 rounds. Use Shooter's Choice and patches till all powder fouling is gone and the solvent begins to work on the copper (some blue or green on the patch)

2. Use Accelerator and Wipe Out after plugging the chamber with a shotgun bore mop on a segment of cleaning rod. Leave in for 2 hours while I do something else or overnight if it's at night.

3. Patch out bore.

4. Repeat till copper is gone (no color appears on patched out Bore treated with Wipe Out for 2 hours. How many time depends on how good your barrel is. My Brux on my 6.5 Creedmoor actually showed NO copper when scoped even after 30 rounds down the tube before cleaning. Factory barrels may take a few treatments.

5. Every 200 rounds, JB the bore to remove carbon.


You can get all the copper out and the powder fouling but carbon really effects accuracy if it is not removed periodically. The only way to see it is with a bore scope. The bore will appear grey. A carbonless bore will be bright and shiny. You can also see carbon taking up the 90 degree "corner" where the grooves meet the lands with a scope. JB to get it out!

wasbeeman,

Patch out is a liquid you use on a patch and work back and forth in the bore, Wipe Out is a foaming spray type.

The Gunslick foaming stuff seems to be just as good as the Wipe Out IMO

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
500N on the DR forum just told me I had ruined my Double Rifle by cleaning it one time with Sweets (as per bottle instructions that is). I still don't buy that one.

Aaaahh yes, 500n - stopping CHARGES(with an "S") without aiming!!!!! Such a great source of wisdom!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
500N on the DR forum just told me I had ruined my Double Rifle by cleaning it one time with Sweets (as per bottle instructions that is). I still don't buy that one.

Aaaahh yes, 500n - stopping CHARGES(with an "S") without aiming!!!!! Such a great source of wisdom!

Hey Doc----let me know next time you are going to be near the Airport. We will do some bore scoping!!!!!! Put this garbage to rest---will also show you tubes that have lots of Sweets used in them...

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
500N on the DR forum just told me I had ruined my Double Rifle by cleaning it one time with Sweets (as per bottle instructions that is). I still don't buy that one.

Aaaahh yes, 500n - stopping CHARGES(with an "S") without aiming!!!!! Such a great source of wisdom!

Hey Doc----let me know next time you are going to be near the Airport. We will do some bore scoping!!!!!! Put this garbage to rest---will also show you tubes that have lots of Sweets used in them...

If you mean DFW...I am near there as I type right now.

P.S. I have always been happy with Sweets. But I am just an average shooter that mostly hunts. And...I don't have a bore scope.

Just trying to learn.

well, I tried the Patch-out on a Merkel that had about 12 Hornady DGXs per barrel through it. I started by cleaning all fouling out with shooters choice and used the Patch-out just on the copper. I followed the directions and used a nylon brush to scrub a bit (label says that will foam it up, but it doesn't). While it is clearly attacking the copper, after three days the bores are still not clean...

quote:

Originally posted by Richard I:
well, I tried the Patch-out on a Merkel that had about 12 Hornady DGXs per barrel through it. I started by cleaning all fouling out with shooters choice and used the Patch-out just on the copper. I followed the directions and used a nylon brush to scrub a bit (label says that will foam it up, but it doesn't). While it is clearly attacking the copper, after three days the bores are still not clean...

What about the "Accelerator Stuff"???

quote:

Originally posted by Richard I:
well, I tried the Patch-out on a Merkel that had about 12 Hornady DGXs per barrel through it. I started by cleaning all fouling out with shooters choice and used the Patch-out just on the copper. I followed the directions and used a nylon brush to scrub a bit (label says that will foam it up, but it doesn't). While it is clearly attacking the copper, after three days the bores are still not clean...

You must have an incredibly fouled bore by neglected cleaning or a rediculously rough bore.

I just cleaned two .300 Win Mags from my range session on Sunday. One had 50 rounds down the bore from clean state. SC till no powder fouling, dry patch, SC on patch and bronze brush, dry patch, apply Wipe out and leave 2 hours, dry patch out, Wipe out again, dry patch out with no evidence of copper.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by Richard I:
well, I tried the Patch-out on a Merkel that had about 12 Hornady DGXs per barrel through it. I started by cleaning all fouling out with shooters choice and used the Patch-out just on the copper. I followed the directions and used a nylon brush to scrub a bit (label says that will foam it up, but it doesn't). While it is clearly attacking the copper, after three days the bores are still not clean...

You must have an incredibly fouled bore by neglected cleaning or a rediculously rough bore.

I just cleaned two .300 Win Mags from my range session on Sunday. One had 50 rounds down the bore from clean state. SC till no powder fouling, dry patch, SC on patch and bronze brush, dry patch, apply Wipe out and leave 2 hours, dry patch out, Wipe out again, dry patch out with no evidence of copper.

Accelerator???

Rusty.
Nice link to KG12. How long have you been using this product for. How much of this do you go through, for instance cleaning one of your big bore doubles. Then just dry and oil, sounds easy enough.
Thanks for info- kidd

Hey ledvm,

I have the accelerator but havn't noticed that it helps that much. The foaming Wipe Out and the Patch Out seem to work fine without it.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Hey ledvm,

I have the accelerator but havn't noticed that it helps that much. The foaming Wipe Out and the Patch Out seem to work fine without it.

thank you sir!!!

ledvm

You won't need accelerator unless you really need to clean it fast - like in BR comps.

I talk people out of buying the Accelerator.

Wipe Out, and now Patch out works fine without it.

I left Sweets 7.62 because of the Ammonia and the fact that it can cause problems and I have to clean guns with Soft steel.

Kidd,
Sorry I did't check back to this thread sooner.

I just use several patches soaked with KG. If there is a real build up in the 404 Jeffery I just let it saok a bit.

Just a light oil an ddry patch and I'm good to go.

Already a KG 12 user, I recently decided to try some of their other products (KG 1 and KG 2). So far, I've been just as impressed as when I first used KG 12.

KG 1 is a carbon remover with a citrus like smell. It does a good job with carbon using a nylon brush but I was really surprised when tight patches started coming out with a large amount of copper flakes on them. I reread the text on the bottle and it said something to the effect of "lifts copper fowling".

KG 2 is an abrasive based copper remover. The text said it is designed to be used after KG 1 to remove surface copper fouling without removing embedded copper. This is important when you need the first shot to go exactly where you aim (long distance or precision shooting). It seems to do just that on my first try.

They recommend following KG 2, with KG 3 degreaser. I did not try KG 3 but degreased with brake cleaner after. I think the main idea is to get the KG 2 oil based abrasive out of the barrel.

I'm continuing to learn about these products but so far they remove copper quicker than any product I've used. Remember, oil when your done...

I've never tried wipe out, or patch out. I've thought about it. I have played with quite a few products. I like easy. Not sure there is any such thing in gun cleaning. I always go back to sweets. I am anal about getting it out of everywere. Posts like this always get me worried, and I want to empty my safe and clean all my guns. Then I remember I already did that. My go to cleaning process is Sweets for copper. Butch's, or Hoppe's for powder fouling, and rem oil, or whatever oil I have around to finish up.

I'm always on the lookout for the easiest quickest way to clean my guns. I'm not so concerned when I am home. Its the vermin trips. I don't want to waste time cleaning, but if ya want to keep hitting things. Sooner, or later...when ya run out of clean guns. You just have too. I find most my stock rifles like a little fouling in there. The custom ones. Not so much. If sweets is going to ruin my barrels. I'm in big trouble. The couple I have now that don't shoot is not from bad cleaning habits. At least I'm not going to admit it. I'll blame the kid. I keep telling him to stop shootin and clean. He sais..."THEIR GETTIN AWAAAY DAD!!!!

Cleaning guns is kind of like painting. Just get paint on what you want painted.

I get good info every time I get on here. Its been a while. Thank You all!

I just tried some patch out. Sure smells like hair dye. Googled "copper reaction blue" and found some info on silver nitrate giving this reaction. Checked on some hair dyes and see that silver nitrate is/may be in some hair dyes. Maybe one of the ingredients in patch out?? I don't know but my rifle is starting to turn blonde!!!

Well, as long as the collars match the cuffs.

this KG12.... can it be airmailed? bush ak. leaves some to be desired in this respect. I have this pre-64 that is terrible at pulling copper....I've too used a variety of copper cleaners and thus far after much repeats of use am finding that Sweets does it better. It still leaves copper but you can see it is removing it...it actually looks like it is ready to be scrubbed out but quit using the bronze brush and just use the jag.

quote:

Originally posted by grizz007:
this KG12.... can it be airmailed? bush ak. leaves some to be desired in this respect. I have this pre-64 that is terrible at pulling copper....I've too used a variety of copper cleaners and thus far after much repeats of use am finding that Sweets does it better. It still leaves copper but you can see it is removing it...it actually looks like it is ready to be scrubbed out but quit using the bronze brush and just use the jag.

I would think it would be OK. Check with Midway. If you are going to go to the trouble to bring some in, get a larger bottle and think about getting the KG1 also.

I will tell you that in my experience, KG12 is head and shoulders above sweets....

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Over in the DR forum...there is a thread saying to never use Sweets on DR barrels. I have used Sweets for years in BA to remove copper.

Is Sweets harmful to barrels if used as labeled?

They recommend using Wipeout/Patchout.

What is in this stuff that chemically removes copper so safely???

I became a wipe-out convert several years back. Don't know what's in it, but I know there's no amonia in it.

The inside of a double rifle barrel is exactly the same as the inside of a bolt rifle barrel.

The difference is in the cost. If you (in theory) ruin a match-grade bolt gun barrel, it's going to cost you about $350 for a new barrel.

Depending on the make and model, the cost on a set of double rifle barrels is somewhere between 5 and $10,000 (or more).

So, I am very careful about what I put in the bores.

Wipe-out is slower, but it's much, much, easier.

If you want your bore clean RIGHT NOW... then Sweets or another amonia-based cleaner will deliver those results much faster than WO.

However, If you want a clean barrel with the least amount of work, wipe out is the way to go.

I just let it sit overnight and use a couple of patches the next morning.

FYI - I do usually spray in some carb cleaner and brush it once or twice to get the carbon out. That does seem to speed up the wipe out cleaning, and it makes the first wipe out application more thorough.

Just about every rifle and/or barrel maker uses diffrent products and diffrent methods, comparing one vs another only gets confusing. I will say that Kenny Jarrett who not only builds rifles but barrels as well does include Sweets in his recomended cleaning procudre. I don't have the article any more but I think a copy can still be found by google searching for Kenny Jarrett Rifle Cleaning Tips. I don't own one of his rifles, although I would like to, but do submit he knows such more about there care than I do.

Ammoloader is spot on with the kg line of products. I've been using them for 2 years now and have given ALLLLLLLLLL the other junk away. If you say sweets or wipeout, which I have used both works better than the kg products then you have never tried them. Give them a try and you will never go back to the other stuff. You just can't imagine how well they work.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ledvm:
500N on the DR forum just told me I had ruined my Double Rifle by cleaning it one time with Sweets (as per bottle instructions that is). I still don't buy that one.

Hotcore

500N is not the only one who warns against Sweets for old DRs with softer steel. Din Collings the veteran gunsmith here is very knowledgeable and he warns against sweets in most barrels including SS. he has been involved with the NZ bigbore target team for decades & his wife Viv still coaches the women's team. Din says that the strong ammonia content in Sweets will dissolve the vanadium and other micro elements in the steel and leaves the surface with minute pores that actually make the bore more rough and prone to more fouling. I used sweets in my modern rifle and left it for bit longer in my Tikka LSA55 222. The end result is a bore that looks grey and scaly. It still shoots tiny groups with its pet loads but it gets fouled very quickly.

If I had a 1920s Rigby 470 or any similar vintage and pedigree double rifle, I certainly would not bring Sweets or any other ammonia based solvent near the rifle!

BTW, 500N owns many such vintage DRs and has bought and sold far more in the past. The Australian DR experts know a thing or two about old double rifles & Graeme Wright has used some of 500N's rifles. I have never met 500N but have had the opportunity to speak to him & correspond with him. What I am saying is that I would trust his advice on suitable solvents for double rifles.

quote:

I used sweets in my modern rifle and left it for bit longer in my Tikka LSA55 222. The end result is a bore that looks grey and scaly. It still shoots tiny groups with its pet loads but it gets fouled very quickly.

I did the same thing to an extraordinary accurate .300 WM, Rem. 700 chrome moly barrel. I was having trouble getting the copper out as this rifle had probably about 1,000 rounds through it over the years. I knew this barrel had seen it's better days, but for big game hunting, probably shooting less than 20 rounds per year, it still had many years left. After letting the Sweets soak for 30 minutes it was totally ruined. I don't use Sweets anymore even in stainless bbls. I'm not so sure that we absolutely have to get every last little bit of copper out anyway, especially in a varmint or big game rifle, and most benchrest barrels don't copper foul to begin with.

Just an update.

I think the Gunslick Foaming Bore Cleaner may work better and faster than any form of Wipe Out.

I was in a hurry after returning from the range with two rifles. I usually patch out with Shooter's choice, Brush, then foam with WO. It seems to take two or three applications depending on the quality of the bore to get clean. This time I simply took the bolts out and foamed with the Gunslick. I left it in while at dinner and patched it out 4 hours later.

The amount of fouling that came out on the first patch was rediculous! I didn't borescope, but patched out till the patch was clean. I bet it's great!

Ok... Been lurking this thread for a while out of simple desperation. I have several rifles that copper foul after just a few shot's, anywhere from 3-6 shots, then the groups turn more into a pattern than a group. In order to get by for awhile, every three rounds I do the Sweets, BBS, Shooter's choice, but slowly fall behind the copper build-up.. At home will spend about four frustrating hours removing copper fowling. I just got some Patch-out and am trying it as I type this. But brings me to the point.. What do you guy's do to remove fowling during your range session??

Just my opinion and I didn't read every post. Wipe out foam works better on copper fouling, powder, and carbon than anything else period. That being said, Lilja recomends butch's which is not very effective. Also its probly been years since those guys have tried to clean a barrel that actually copper fouls to any extent. The patch out also works well but not as effective as the foam. Just don't get the stuff on wood as it will remove the finish.

+1 on the KG-12, the best I've used to get rid of copper. 15 minutes of cleaning after shooting say 20 rounds of ammo and you're done!

My favourite smith in NZ is Din Collings who has over 60 years of solid experience. According to him Sweets will react with Venadium, Cadmium, etc in the CM or SS bore and leave microscopic pores which will fowl the barrel even more. The theory of "nitriding" when firing ammo in a bore which has ammonia is an interesting one.

I have messed up my Tikka LSA 55 222 bore by leaving sweets for too long along with some patch lint. Now the bore is like crocodile skin. But it still shoots half inch groups!

At last I got hold of some Patch Out & accelerator from 500N. I'll try it our on my rifles as soon as I get back to NZ.

OK...been using the Patch-Out with out Accelerator and I am convinced...it works better than Sweets. It is the best solvent I have ever used. The best part is that it seems to get everything not just the copper.

Hey ledvm!

Try the Gunslick Foam next time. I think it's faster.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
OK...been using the Patch-Out with out Accelerator and I am convinced...it works better than Sweets. It is the best solvent I have ever used. The best part is that it seems to get everything not just the copper.

"it seems to get everything not just the copper."

Try putting a powder solvent in afterwards - like Hoppe's No 9
and see if any powder comes out.

Even though I like Wipe Out Patch out, i am not convinced yet that it
gets all the powder residue out. Wipe Out (Foam version) "lifts"
a lot of crap out of pores etc but I don't think it dissolves the powder.

.

Has anyone tried Birchwood/Casey Foaming Bore Cleaner?

Someone refered to "the various repacks" in an earlier thread, does this mean that all of the foaming products are made by the same people and sold for repacking, to the gun cleaning brands?

I have been using Outers with much success.

I have an old 96 Swede that hadn't been properly cleaned in a while. I ran several patches soaked with the new Hoppe's Elite, which is supposed to attack copper fouling, through the bore, letting it soak for 20 minutes or so between patches, until they started comming out fairly clean. Then I filled the bore with Outers, let it soak for 20-30 minutes. The first patch I pushed through pushed so much blue gunk out that I was amazed. I only thought I was cleaning with the Hoppes!

I am about out of Outers, so I placed an order today. I went ahead and ordered B/C to try as well.

I am sold on the foaming bore cleaners!