Over in the DR forum...there is a thread saying to never use Sweets on DR barrels. I have used Sweets for years in BA to remove copper.

Is Sweets harmful to barrels if used as labeled?

They recommend using Wipeout/Patchout.

What is in this stuff that chemically removes copper so safely???

I've never used wipeout or patchout so I can't speak about that but I've been using Sweets for a lot of years without a problem. And that includes match rifles. Although the label sez don't leave it beyond 20 minutes, I've read post by folks that accidentally left it overnight w/o harmfull effects. Ammonia is the active ingrediant in most of the copper cleaners. (I think)

My gunsmith looks at a lot of barrels with his borescope.

He has looked at many ruined by Sweet's.

What does Sweets do that say Butches doesn't?? What does he call "ruined"?

Any ammonia based cleaner will ruin a barrel.

I've had a couple of conversations with Woody at Lothar Walther. He says the reason is that if all of the ammonia is not removed, when a bullet is fired down the barrel at high temp and pressure, it causes some kind of crystallization or "frosting". A chemical reaction that ruins the metal.

My gunsmith did not go into detail about the process that occurs, he just says it's a fact. I've been in his shop when folks come in with a problem rifle, he scopes it then asks what was used for cleaning (he already knew the answer).

I don't know about the chemical process --I leave that sort of stuff to HC and Jeff O-- but that is why you make your final pass, before oiling, with brake cleaner. To remove any left over cleaners of any sort.
Sounds like as far as "Woody's" position, what he said was that people weren't doing it right, not that they shouldn't do it. I wonder if Walther started including instructions on how to properly clean a barrel so's their's would last longer?
Not haveing a bore scope I can't really say but if I made my living changing barrels, one of my first purchases would be a bore scope.

quote:

Any ammonia based cleaner will ruin a barrel.

Just about EVERYTHING besides Hoppe #9 has some ammonia.

OK...Here is my dilemma.

There are only 2 ways to remove copper: 1) chemically 2) abrasively

I assume Wipe-Out/Patch-Out does it chemically.

Nitorgen based compounds esp ammonia are one of the only substances that will readily "react" with copper to put it into solution so that it may be removed.

Maybe Sweets is not the best I am definitely not the expert here. Actually...trying to learn.

That is why I ask: What the h3!! is in Wipe-Out that chemically removes copper BUT is SAFE to steel & solder alloys???

Do y'all just take it at face value that it is fine???

RC, not piling on but I am really curious about the answers to this.

No problem wasbeeman! Just checked back here.

I called my smith. He says that Sweet's and other ammonia cleaners "nitrides" the surface of the steel and under heat and pressure becomes brittle....therfore firecracking.

He says when he scopes bores and sees the "surface of a dry lake bed" he knows the customer has been using Sweet's....

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
No problem wasbeeman! Just checked back here.

I called my smith. He says that Sweet's and other ammonia cleaners "nitrides" the surface of the steel and under heat and pressure becomes brittle....therfore firecracking.

He says when he scopes bores and sees the "surface of a dry lake bed" he knows the customer has been using Sweet's....

Even if you just scrub the bore for a few min and get rid of it all and then oil???

What does Wipe-Out/Patch-out have in it get copper out???

Somebody!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
What does Wipe-Out/Patch-out have in it get copper out???

Somebody!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not Ammonia!

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
What does Wipe-Out/Patch-out have in it get copper out???

Somebody!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not Ammonia!

Sir...with all due respect...if you Don't know what IS in it...how do you know what isn't???

Been using it for many years in CM 10k + customs and 20 different Speedy built SS rifles with NEVER a problem. I bore scope anything that will stay still long enough for me to take a look.

Bottom line if you are too stupid to follow directions of a product then you should find another hobby besides shooting.

I buy brake cleaner by the case!!!!!!!

The fact of the matter is that Wipe out along with many other cleaners that do not contain ammonia remove copper from the bore probably better than Sweet's without any possibility of harming the bore.


And you don't have to buy anything else by the case to remove the ammonia.


And you will have less in your life to worry about

quote:

Sir...with all due respect...if you Don't know what IS in it...how do you know what isn't???

It says it doesn't contain ammonia.

Do you know what isn't in Bologna or a hot dog?

http://www.sharpshootr.com/wipeout.htm

quote:

WIPE-OUT™ is not safe for varnish , shellac or old oil type finishes. It will remove them.It will dissolve brass, bronze, and copper. Most aluminums (AR-15/M-16 receivers and all aluminum pistol frames) are safe with Wipe-Out ™ , but some will discolor to a dull grey. IF you have any doubt try a test area where it will not be visible. Wipe-Out ™ will NOT DISSOLVE LEAD but it will degrade lead so that it can be pushed out with a patch.WIPE-OUT™ contains no acid and no ammonia.WIPE-OUT™ CANNOT CAUSE RUST.It will not gum, or form solids in either the action or the barrel .WIPE-OUT™ is safe for all barrel steels, both stainless and carbon steel. NOTE: WIPE-OUT will remove Molybdenum.

Milfoam, aka: Forrest Bore Foam, Outers, Gunslick, Hoppe's and a host of other repacks, also has no ammonia.

http://www.milfoam.fi/barrel_cleaning_products.html

http://www.milfoam.fi/Forrest%20foam%20statements.pdf

Well????? What is the active ingrediant?
By any road, a good swabbing with brake fluid after you're finished cleaning and before you oil makes sure there's NOTHING left in the bore. Kinda a insurance policy.

I dunno, neither of them have an MSDS on their site.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
Been using it for many years in CM 10k + customs and 20 different Speedy built SS rifles with NEVER a problem. I bore scope anything that will stay still long enough for me to take a look.

Bottom line if you are too stupid to follow directions of a product then you should find another hobby besides shooting.

I buy brake cleaner by the case!!!!!!!

Boss Hoss,

What is the "it" you are referring to?

"it" is Sweets 7.62

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
"it" is Sweets 7.62

So the man with the bore scope that is critical of a lot of different solvents...uses Sweets.

BossHoss,
Have you ever seen any bore damage from Sweets 7.62 when used as the label states???

Also...BossHoss...what do you think of Patch-Out/Wipe-Out for removing copper???

Rifle Barrel Cleaning
By
Jim Borden


I do not recommend use of bore solvents that are basically 28% ammonia hydroxide. Most custom barrels are made of 416 R stainless steel and in the right circumstances exposure of that steel to 28% ammonia can result in light corrosion of the steel that will appear as minor pitting or hazing. Also, the 28% ammonia tends to “dry” the steel and increases surface tension. This normally results in worse fouling occurring after the first shot of the next string of shots.

quote:

PRECISION RIFLE SERVICES

PRS Ltd - Strathavon Lodge - Tomintoul - Ballindalloch - Banffshire - AB37 9AR

Tel - 44 (0) 1807 580422 - Fax - 44 (0) 1807 580424



Both Sweets and Shooters Choice Copper Remover have strong ammonia bases and if not used with care can etch the surface of stainless steel barrels. I do not recommend the use of strong ammonia based products in any stainless barrels

quote:

Lilja Barrels suggested equipment and solvents

Our preferred cleaning solvent is Butch's Bore Shine made by BBS Industries (406-652-2495). This solvent is excellent at attacking both powder and copper fouling. We recommend it for both break-in and regular cleaning



Do not apply a strong copper remover, like Sweets, on a bronze brush

On the other hand, I just spoke to a gentleman at Brux. He says they use the abrasive Remington bore cleaner for the life of their barrels. He says he doesn't believe ammonia can damage a bore.


I will never use an ammonia based cleaner in any of my rifles.

You all can do what you want and may learn the hard way. If you never have scoped multiple bores like my smith and you plan to never scope yours, then what's the difference. Ignorance is bliss.

"ignorance is bliss" ohhhh that's rude.

Having read all of the post so I can hopefully avoid a blissful state, I find the most common remark seems to be "if not used correctly, may harm the bore". And it seems that some of the possible results are based on what seems to me to be blatant abuses of the cleaners. I mean, why would anyone shoot a rifle with the bore wet with bore cleaner?? As Hoss so quaintly put it: read the label. If someone were to pour a batch of wipeout on their stock, I don't think they'd get a lot of sympathy from folks.
It also seems strange that Butches would be endorsed but not Sweet's. If the cleaner has ammonia in it, it has ammonia in it. The percentage just dictates how long it takes to screw up your barrel if you leave it in there.

It would be interesting for someone to make a comparison between how long it takes to clean a barrel using Butches and/or Sweet's and Patch out. Say someone with a bore scope.......hint hint.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Rifle Barrel Cleaning
By
Jim Borden


I do not recommend use of bore solvents that are basically 28% ammonia hydroxide. Most custom barrels are made of 416 R stainless steel and in the right circumstances exposure of that steel to 28% ammonia can result in light corrosion of the steel that will appear as minor pitting or hazing. Also, the 28% ammonia tends to “dry” the steel and increases surface tension. This normally results in worse fouling occurring after the first shot of the next string of shots.

quote:

PRECISION RIFLE SERVICES

PRS Ltd - Strathavon Lodge - Tomintoul - Ballindalloch - Banffshire - AB37 9AR

Tel - 44 (0) 1807 580422 - Fax - 44 (0) 1807 580424



Both Sweets and Shooters Choice Copper Remover have strong ammonia bases and if not used with care can etch the surface of stainless steel barrels. I do not recommend the use of strong ammonia based products in any stainless barrels

quote:

Lilja Barrels suggested equipment and solvents

Our preferred cleaning solvent is Butch's Bore Shine made by BBS Industries (406-652-2495). This solvent is excellent at attacking both powder and copper fouling. We recommend it for both break-in and regular cleaning



Do not apply a strong copper remover, like Sweets, on a bronze brush

On the other hand, I just spoke to a gentleman at Brux. He says they use the abrasive Remington bore cleaner for the life of their barrels. He says he doesn't believe ammonia can damage a bore.


I will never use an ammonia based cleaner in any of my rifles.

You all can do what you want and may learn the hard way. If you never have scoped multiple bores like my smith and you plan to never scope yours, then what's the difference. Ignorance is bliss.

Bliss My Big Fat White Ass ----I have scoped too many rifles to count that used this product. If your Smith is as good as a Smith as Speedy is then Good for him but is he also a shooter who understands with finite granularity the nuances of building, shooting, maintaining a rifles enough to be in the HOF and run one of the most advanced Gunsmith Programs on the planet?

Not to belittle you or your Smith but just because neither of you understand how to use this product only means that you are not cognizant of one of the most effective components of a proactive rifle maintenance program you can use.

It really is funny to see the level of misinformation that is prevalent here but then most people get theirs second, third, fourth etc. etc. HAND!!

It's just an expression!

But true. If you never scope your bore when it's new and then periodically during its life, you'll never know the difference except for shortened accuracy life.

That "someone with a borescope" has barreled thousands of actions and scoped thousands of bores. I've known him for 25 years, shoot regularly with him, and he does all my barrel work. He uses Wipe Out and JB's.

I think it's impossible to remove all of the ammonia from the microfissures in the bore. Then when you fire a bullet down the bore with high heat and pressure....Wha la, fire cracking.

I have no issues with Wipe Out taking too long to remove copper.

What's the logic of using ammonia to clean your bore, then frantically using some other solvent to clean out the ammonia?

Non-ammonia bore cleaners work just as well, just as fast, without the necessity to run some other solvent down the bore to remove them. And like I said, you can use them without the fear of harming your bore.

quote:

Bliss My Big Fat White Ass ----I have scoped too many rifles to count that used this product. If your Smith is as good as a Smith as Speedy is then Good for him but is he also a shooter who understands with finite granularity the nuances of building, shooting, maintaining a rifles enough to be in the HOF and run one of the most advanced Gunsmith Programs on the planet?

Not to belittle you or your Smith but just because neither of you understand how to use this product only means that you are not cognizant of one of the most effective components of a proactive rifle maintenance program you can use.

It really is funny to see the level of misinformation that is prevalent here but then most people get theirs second, third, fourth etc. etc. HAND!!

\


Do as you please.

I'm not gonna have a pissing contest

quote:

It also seems strange that Butches would be endorsed but not Sweet's. If the cleaner has ammonia in it, it has ammonia in it. The percentage just dictates how long it takes to screw up your barrel if you leave it in there.

Exactly!!!

BossHoss,

Have you scoped bores de-coppered with Wipe-out to see if it actually gets the copper out???

I forgot.

Sorry to hear about your ass

I am NOT opposed to using Wip-Out/Patch-Out at all.

But...I would be quitting Sweets because we KNOW what is in it and GOING TO Patch-Out and we DON'T KNOW what is in that.

Just seems kinda ironic.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I forgot.

Sorry to hear about your ass

Yeah----at least the sunburn has gone away LOL!!!

Oh---Have not used the Wipeout. Did use one that had another product one time at a match that someone else was using a few years ago that had an accelerator with it.

Below is a procedure put together by Speedy a few years ago when he had his shop. The only part I do not follow is the Mixing of the Hoppes products as Speedy does not do that any longer now that Butches is available.

THE Hydrogen Peroxide procedure does work and I don't mean maybe!!

PAY ATTENTION HERE GRASSHOPPERS:

For what it is worth read below and make up your own mind. Not everyone is a BR Shooter but my rifles are all built (by Speedy) to the same specs my competition one are. I also use a bore scope to verify everything so guessing is not part of the process:

S.G. & Y. PRECISION RIFLES, LLC
- BARREL BREAK-IN & CLEANING PROCEDURES -

Many of our customers upon taking delivery of their new gun or barrel are in a quandary as how to go about breaking-in that new barrel for maximum life and accuracy. With so much written in magazines these days stating use this, don’t use that, brush, don’t brush...what’s a person to do??
At S.G. &Y. Precision, we have a unique opportunity to inspect many barrels on a daily basis with our video borescope. Consequently, we see the results of a variety of break-in as well as cleaning procedures, and most of them leave the rifle owners with their mouth agape when they see the fruits of their misinformed labor on our bore scopes color monitor. We have seen practically new barrels ruined with less than a hundred rounds shot through them by some of the crazy and sometimes humorous break-in methods employed. Anyway here goes for what it’s worth.


SPEEDY’S RULES FOR PROPER RIFLE HYGENE & BREAK-IN

A. Bore guides:

1st Rule of Thumb:
If the brush will go through it, it’s to damn big!

2nd Rule of Thumb:
If you don’t have one, get one! Without a good bore guide, you are just wasting your time trying to break-in a barrel or cleaning it for that matter. More barrels are destroyed or severely damaged and life shortened by cleaning without a proper bore guide than by shooting. There are many types and brands of bore guides available on the market and range in price from $5.00 to $50.00. The only one we recommend is the Lucas two-piece bore guide (see picture below). They are the best insurance you can buy for that new barrel. All other bore guides in my opinion are only good for one thing, keeping the solvents out of the trigger and action (refer to rule #1].
A LUCAS bore guide id made up of two sections. One is a guide similar to most available on the market. What sets the Lucas apart from the rest is its smaller second guide which has a hole reamed just large enough to for the rod to pass through it. This section then slips into the main and keeps the cleaning rod centered in the bore no matter how you bend the rod up and down or side to side.

B. Solvents:
There are three solvents we recommend they are as follows:

1) SWEETS 7.62
Sweets is used in our in our cleaning procedures only as a bore lubricant prior to pushing the brush through the barrel. Sweets is composed of mostly large soap molecules similar to household dishwashing detergents. Because of the lubricity provided by the soap in the sweets it allows the brush to easily slide through the bore on its first pass. Not to mention removing all of the loose powder and carbon residue left in the barrel prior to cleaning.

NOTE: Sweets can also be used in extreme cases of copper fouling. The procedure in this worst case scenario is as follows.
A) Brush the barrel with Sweets (Kiss brush good-bye).
B) Let bore soak 5 to 10 minutes (No Longer on Chrome Molly Barrels. Sweets and CM don’t get along very well together for very long).
C) Now soak a patch with HYDROGEN PEROXCIDE and very, very slowly push it through the bore. A chemical reaction will take place between the Ammonia in the Sweets and the Hydrogen Peroxide causing all copper to go into suspension as the reaction takes place. The muzzle of your rifle will look as if it has rabies as the patch slowly nears the crown and you see all of the foaming reaction that is taking place. The blue green colors you see as the patch exits the barrel will amaze you.
D) Inspect the bore after you patch it out with Butches, by placing a Q-Tip just inside the crown. This will light up the bore and allow you to check for any remaining copper. If there are still traces of copper a second application will usually finish the job.
E) At this point you should clean the barrel a described below. If the barrels is chrome molly, we recommend that it be put up using SPEEDY’S FORMULA also described below. The black powder solvent portion of the formula will protect the bore from any rusting or pitting as it does black powder flintlocks or cap & ball long rifles.


2) BUTCHES BORE SHINE
Through out the years we have tried every type of solvent there is known to man and then some you don’t even want to hear about. But none have ever done as good a job as Butches Bore Shine. Used on a regular basis Butches will keep even the largest overbore barrel as clean as the day it was chambered.

3) SPEEDY’S FORMULA
The Speedy Formula is used for the protection of the bore when putting a firearm up for the season or prolonged storage. For those of you poor souls that do not have Butches Bore Shine available to them this solvent is a very good second choice. This was the best we had found up to the advent of Butches.

SPEEDY’S FORMULA is made up as follows:
Mix 2/3 rd.s . Hoppes No. 9 Plus Black Powder Solvent with 1/3rd. Regular Hoppes No. 9 Nitro Solvent. Let this mixture set overnight and it will form a sort of gel that adheres very well to the brush and cuts powder fouling to a minimum.


C. Procedure for “Break-inâ€:
Although we at S.G. & Y. Precision Rifles feel an extensive break-in procedure is not necessary for the custom barreled rifles we build, since that all have a lapped finish in them. The procedure probably has some merit when applied to a factory barreled rifle that has an as machined finish from the factory and no lapped bore surface at all.
Custom barrels are lapped to impart a finish to the bore that will produce as little copper fouling as possible through out the length of the barrel.

Before firing that first round through the barrel, we will clean the barrel as if it had been shot by following these simple steps.

Step 1)
Insert Lucas bore guide into receiver and chamber. If you don’t have one, STOP here and get one! If not, just shoot your gun and forget trying to take any care of your barrel at all. If you do have one, proceed, and give yourself one “At-A-Boy†for being astute enough to have purchased the proper tools for the job.

NOTE: One “Aw-Shit†wipes out all “At-A-Boysâ€.

Step 2)
Run one wet patch of Sweets through the bore and let soak for approximately 30 seconds. Do not patch this out. Remember this is going to serve as our lubricant for the brush as we push it down the bore for the first time. Try this dry and you will see why we apply the Sweets. The sound coming from your barrel as you run a dry brush through it resembles that on stepping on a cat’s tail while wearing your wife’s high heel shoes. Not a pretty picture (unless you’ve shaved your legs recently).

Step 3)
Next, run the brush through the lubricated barrel only enough to expose the entire brush as it exits the muzzle. Yes, I know that you still have 12 more inches of cleaning rod you could push out the end of your barrel but we want to protect that new crown. Also, if that rod hangs out that far, you will eventually start wearing down the rifling at the crown from about 4 to 7 o’clock. This is very bad “JU-JU†for accuracy. Plus we get to make an extra $40 when you need to re-crown the puppy. OK, back to our Step 3. Once the brush is exposed, saturate it well with our Butches Bore Shine or Speedy’s Formula and SLOWLY run the brush through the bore 10 complete back and forth passes while keeping the rod as straight as possible. This is where the Lucas bore guide really pays for itself! Remember, the key word is slowly. We are not trying to break any land speed records today. Let this sit a minute or two and proceed to the next step.

Step 4)
After you have let the barrel soak for a few moments, saturate a patch with the Butches Bore Shine or Speedy’s Formula and pass it through the bore. Follow this with 2 dry patches and then with a chamber mop or patch wrapped around a brush on a short cleaning rod, dry the “CHAMBER†of the barrel with Brake Kleen or lighter fluid.

NOTE: We wrote “DRY THE CHAMBER†not the bore of the barrel.

Next, gently wipe the crown off with a soft cloth or patch and lube your bolt (let’s not gall the lugs just yet). Now, you’re ready to shoot your first shot.

Then follow the schedule below to complete your barrel break-in.

1. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 1 shot.

2. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 5 shots.

3. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 10 shots.

4. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 10 to 15 shots and clean again.


D) Additional Cleaning Tips:

1. Each time you clean your rifle, you may wish follow the last dry patch through the bore with a patch soaked with LOCK-EEZ if the bore felt a bit too dry as you passed that last patch through it prior to drying the chamber. This is a graphite powder suspended in a quick evaporating carrier that coats the bore slightly before passing that first round through a completely dry bore. LOCK-EZZ is available at S.G. & Y. Precision Products and most NAPA stores around the country.

2. We are always asked about POWDER FOULING and how to remove it. The only product that we have seen that really does a good job on powder fouling, especially on the carbon ring that forms just ahead of where the neck ends in the chamber, is IOSSO Bore Paste. This is used with an IOSSO BLUE NYLON bristle brush and worked slowly in the neck and throat areas, then slowly down the entire bore. Follow this up with a few wet patches of IOSSO Gun Oil or Butches Bore Shine. Then patch out the bore as if you had brushed as usual, and you’re again ready to shoot.

E. Follow the outline above and make it your regular cleaning program and I promise that your barrels will deliver their greatest potential accuracy and extend their life without a lot of grief and hours of wondering if they are clean.


Good Shooting,

Speedy Gonzalez

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

It also seems strange that Butches would be endorsed but not Sweet's. If the cleaner has ammonia in it, it has ammonia in it. The percentage just dictates how long it takes to screw up your barrel if you leave it in there.

Exactly!!!

BossHoss,

Have you scoped bores de-coppered with Wipe-out to see if it actually gets the copper out???

BH,
Are you gonna comment on my above question?

Sorry it was in the above post---No I have not.

I have.

Wipe Out = no copper

Hey, I gotta try that Sweet's and peroxide thing. That sounds like a hoot. Anybody got a Savage they want to loan me?

Makes the bore foam like a radid dog!!!!!

While we are pawing the ground and marking our territory, let us take a look at KG-12

This link will take you to a test page to show you the results.
I have been a Sweets fan for years, used it my custom and double rifles. I've tried WIPE OUT works, but REAL slow. I now use KG-12. It's water based so you need to oil after you use it.

Sorry, I don't like using metal brushes on my bores. I use a bore guide.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Hey, I gotta try that Sweet's and peroxide thing. That sounds like a hoot. Anybody got a Savage they want to loan me?

BTW, every barrel manufacturer I spoke to warned about mixing solvents....sorry Speedy!

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Hey, I gotta try that Sweet's and peroxide thing. That sounds like a hoot. Anybody got a Savage they want to loan me?

BTW, every barrel manufacturer I spoke to warned about mixing solvents....sorry Speedy!

Technically...they are not mixing Sweets with H2O2...they are removing the Sweets with a patch soaked in H2O2. Just like the bottle says...patch out with a solvent.

quote:

Sorry, I don't like using metal brushes on my bores. I use a bore guide.

After shooting bullets that fit incredibly tightly down your bore at 62,000 PSI accompanied by high heat, how on earth do you think you can do any damage to your bore with a bronze brush?