I have been cleaning my CZ 416 Rigby & Simson Mauser 98 9.3X62 rifles.

Both had fired about 40 rounds after last cleaning.

I have had the CZ for a year and fired about 250 round through it from New. The Simson is over 100 years old & I have had it for about 15 years & in that period I might have shot 300 rounds max.

I do use a few Barnes TSX bullets but mostly lead core SN like Lapua Mega or Hornady & Woodleigh.

Here is the issue - This time around I have cleaned the rifles twice without shooting them. First time - used Wipeout & accelerator 3 times alternated with cleaning the bore with WD40, Butches boreshite etc. to remove carbon fouling. The patches were coming our VERY blue when using Wipeout AFTER cleaning the carbon. Clearly a case of layers of copper & carbon fouling. I finally applied Eezox and left the rifles in the cabinet for about 2 weeks.

Today I cleaned them again - removed the Eezox, applied W/o with accelerator and got plenty of blue. Not as much as before but still plenty. More cleaning to remove carbon - brown colour on patch and then W/o. More blue but not a lot.

Really strange that I can still see a 5mm to 8mm copper streak at the tip (1 inch inside) the 9.3 bore!

20 years ago I used to clean my rifles each time I shot them. Over the last 5+ years I have limited it to every 40 or 50 shots.

Is this fouling & continuous blue patches normal? How many patches of W/o do you use? Any comments? Any suggestions?

This is my bore cleaning procedure:

1. I run a few patches of Prolix through the bore; another nonspecific solvelt will also work.

2. Once there is a significant decrease in carbon staining (probably 3 to 5 passes), I put in Wipe Out Accelerator.

3. After the Accelerator, in goes Wipe Out or Patch Out and I let the barrel sit for at least 15 or 20 minutes. I've also let them sit in this condition for 2 or 3 days and there has been no evidence of any damage to the bore in doing so.

4. Step 3 is repeated until patches come out perfectly white.

Your question was, how many passes. In some barrels, it only takes 3 or 4 Wipe Out passes to get the bore perfectly clean. In other barrels it takes a lot more. The worst was a defective barrel I had that had proximal bore pitting. It took days of work and numerous applications of Wipe Out Accelerator and Wipe Out to get it clean and it fouled heavily again after just a few shots. I rarely use brushes, by the way, and NEVER steel brushes; only bronze or Nylon.

All I can say is to be persistent and the barrel will eventually come clean. Once you get the barrel perfectly clean, as long as it isn't pitted, it will probably clean easier the next time.

Another thing I do to new barrels and to older barrels I've cleaned and haven't been previously treated, is to apply Microlon Gun Juice. I believe it makes subsequent cleanings easier and is supposed to improve accuracy and velocity (which I believe it does).

By the way, I also have a large bore CZ in which I shoot Hornadays and Woodleighs. It does take more cleaning than some of my other barrels but I can't complain about the accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I have been cleaning my CZ 416 Rigby & Simson Mauser 98 9.3X62 rifles.

Both had fired about 40 rounds after last cleaning.

I have had the CZ for a year and fired about 250 round through it from New. The Simson is over 100 years old & I have had it for about 15 years & in that period I might have shot 300 rounds max.

I do use a few Barnes TSX bullets but mostly lead core SN like Lapua Mega or Hornady & Woodleigh.

Here is the issue - This time around I have cleaned the rifles twice without shooting them. First time - used Wipeout & accelerator 3 times alternated with cleaning the bore with WD40, Butches boreshite etc. to remove carbon fouling. The patches were coming our VERY blue when using Wipeout AFTER cleaning the carbon. Clearly a case of layers of copper & carbon fouling. I finally applied Eezox and left the rifles in the cabinet for about 2 weeks.

Today I cleaned them again - removed the Eezox, applied W/o with accelerator and got plenty of blue. Not as much as before but still plenty. More cleaning to remove carbon - brown colour on patch and then W/o. More blue but not a lot.

Really strange that I can still see a 5mm to 8mm copper streak at the tip (1 inch inside) the 9.3 bore!

20 years ago I used to clean my rifles each time I shot them. Over the last 5+ years I have limited it to every 40 or 50 shots.

Is this fouling & continuous blue patches normal? How many patches of W/o do you use? Any comments? Any suggestions?

Naki,what have I been telling you about cleaning? When the barrel has serious copper no solvent or foam will remove it.If you have just observed this you have done very little if any rifle shooting in your life.
Your post however tells me that you are a keen observer.

I have cleaned rifle bores that had horrible copper fouling (not from my shooting) and have always been able to clean down to bare steel. Some were a real challenge but they will come clean. I mostly use Gunslick foaming bore cleaner to remove copper fouling, and have left it in the bore for extended periods for heavily fouled bores.

I bought a Ruger M77 MkII chambered in 30/06 off a used rack that looked new but was copper fouled beyond belief that cleaned up. It would copper foul heavily after a dozen rounds went through it, so I hand lapped the bore to smooth any roughness and afterward it was an easy cleanup even after forty rounds through it.

What they explained to me when I first bought this product was to use the wipeout and about 1/2 the drops of the accellerator on the same patch. Use a loose fitting patch and briskly scrub the bore so as to create a foam inside the bore. Let it sit for 10 minutes the first time and then repeat the process every 5 - 10 minutes until you get no color on the patches aat all. Then just use dry patches to clean the bore. Works for me.

Shootaway

Your track record here on AR is well known.

If I have not done any shooting in my life, how did my rifles get fouled?

I know you want everyone to use JB because you think that is the ONLY way to clean a fouled barrel to remove fouling.

There are many who have proved you wrong on many occasions. You just don't get it.

Thanks for your compliment that I am a good observer. On the other hand I cannot return that complement to you.

You are a poor observer, a poor listener and a poor communicator. You are also rude and offensive.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

Naki,what have I been telling you about cleaning? When the barrel has serious copper no solvent or foam will remove it.If you have just observed this you have done very little if any rifle shooting in your life.
Your post however tells me that you are a keen observer.

I use MPro7 carbon remover and let it sit for 15 minutes. Patch it dry then, run two patches with Patchout followed immediately by Wipeout.

I let my rifle sit til just before bedtime. Patch it dry and look to see if I have any copper streaks visible at the muzzle. If I do see copper, then I apply two more patches of Patchout followed immediately by Wipeout and let it sit overnight. Run some dry patches through the next day and look for copper at the muzzle again.

I don't recall having to do any more than this to clean the barrel free of copper at the muzzle.

I have no idea how clean the throat looks but it's been workin fine for me. I do this after every range session regardless of rounds fired.

I would say just keep applying the Patchout/Wipeout til you don't see any more copper at the muzzle. I think most barrels clean easier once they have had several hundred rounds through them with frequent cleaning sessions.

Big bores are harder to clean than small bores, maybe because you have more surface to clean??

To get'er done pronto..Mix a quart jar of 25% commercial Amonia with a cup of Hydrogen Peroxide, you can drop of copper bullet or whateve in it to color it blue and supposedly activate it...

swab the barrel and let stand for 15 minutes then dry with clean patches..continue until patches come out white or gray...

this is stong stuff, so don't leave it in the bore longer than 15 minutes, when the patches are clean and the bore is dry, clean the bore with bore cleaner, then oil profusely..pay attention to the directions, this is potent stuff....

Ray,

Sounds like Sweets. Works good.

I have tried Sweets and found it dangerous. I left it overnight in one rifle & that made the bore a bit rough! Fortunately it did not affect accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
What they explained to me when I first bought this product was to use the wipeout and about 1/2 the drops of the accellerator on the same patch. Use a loose fitting patch and briskly scrub the bore so as to create a foam inside the bore. Let it sit for 10 minutes the first time and then repeat the process every 5 - 10 minutes until you get no color on the patches aat all. Then just use dry patches to clean the bore. Works for me.

The Boys at Wipeout recommended that I use a Nylon Bore brush to initially apply wipeout and the accellerator instead of loose fitting patch the brush helps arreate the mixture

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Shootaway

Your track record here on AR is well known.

If I have not done any shooting in my life, how did my rifles get fouled?

I know you want everyone to use JB because you think that is the ONLY way to clean a fouled barrel to remove fouling.

There are many who have proved you wrong on many occasions. You just don't get it.

Thanks for your compliment that I am a good observer. On the other hand I cannot return that complement to you.

You are a poor observer, a poor listener and a poor communicator. You are also rude and offensive.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

Naki,what have I been telling you about cleaning? When the barrel has serious copper no solvent or foam will remove it.If you have just observed this you have done very little if any rifle shooting in your life.
Your post however tells me that you are a keen observer.

Nakihunter,

Have you tried Boretech Copper Remover ? I have used it with great success on some pretty stubborn Weatherby bores. I have also heard that KG12 works very well for copper removal but have not personally used it .

A very very good gunsmith once told me never to use JB in a barrel I stopped using it as a result as well as the harsh ammonia based solutions. I used wipeout for a while but prefer having my rifles clean the very first day instead of a few days later.
http://www.laniganperformance....kg12testresults.html

Good Luck and oh yeah ignore Shootaway if you have not already.

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
What they explained to me when I first bought this product was to use the wipeout and about 1/2 the drops of the accellerator on the same patch. Use a loose fitting patch and briskly scrub the bore so as to create a foam inside the bore. Let it sit for 10 minutes the first time and then repeat the process every 5 - 10 minutes until you get no color on the patches aat all. Then just use dry patches to clean the bore. Works for me.

The Boys at Wipeout recommended that I use a Nylon Bore brush to initially apply wipeout and the accellerator instead of loose fitting patch the brush helps arreate the mixture

Yes a nylon brush that is made of a non reactive metal(not brass) is the only brush that should be used with the modern cleaners as well .

WipeOut is too messy for me. However, here's what I've done in the past to get to bare /clean bore(s).

1. Suck it up and do the J-B thing.
2. Leave WipeOut in the bore overnight with a finger cot "mini-condom" over the crown, upside down in a holder, cleaning out with KROIL/whatever each morning. Repeat until convinced you have it all.
3. Clean in between shooting session until fouled enough to repeat 1. to 3. I use BoreTech or full K-G products and Kroil, and maybe some Shooter's Choice to scrub any copper that remains on rough bores every so on.

As you've already read, we all find our own individual way, as will yourself.

Cheers!

Barry

I;ve had great luck with Wipe Out. I don't know how many patches I use, but I fill the bore with foam and let it sit until the foam is completely gone. Usually it'll be dripping purple out of the muzzle into the trash can. I patch it, then fill the bore again and let it sit again. I have been known to use a nylon brush to the second foaming, and then let it sit even longer. Usually two aplications does it for me. If not, I do a third. Souds time consuming but it's not. Takes 20 seconds for each squirt, then I'm off doing something else instead of scrub scrub scrub... After the Wipe Out, I run a very tight patch with oil on it through the barrel, then a dry patch for SS barrels, and leave the oil for blued barrels. Store upside down, good to go.

I find no reason to push a metal bristled brush through my bores! Nylon works just fine! A couple of years ago I went back to Wipe Out. Just simpler and it gets the job done without me having to shove so many rod and patches up and down the bores of my rifles!

I work in an electroplating shop and we use a mixture of chromic and nitric acid to strip copper from helicopter parts. It works in mere seconds! I'll try to get the exact recipe, but sometimes the Govt is none too forthcoming with info like this.

Yes that kind of acid will also remove the vanadium, cadmium etc from the barrel steel and leave the bore pitted and rough.

This is why I love my Outer's Foul-Out. I don't think they make them anymore because they aren't idiot proof, but the chemicals are readily available or can be made at home. So can the electronics if you search the web.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
I find no reason to push a metal bristled brush through my bores! Nylon works just fine! A couple of years ago I went back to Wipe Out. Just simpler and it gets the job done without me having to shove so many rod and patches up and down the bores of my rifles!

+1

I use foaming whipeout almost exclusively now. I usually will leave it in the bores for 4 to 8 hours or so then push out with a patch and reapply. Takes typically 3-4 times to get the bores clean down to the bare metal. I verify with a borescope. 95% of the time I am shooting TSX, CEB, or Woodleigh bullets. I have not ran a brush through a bore now in years.

One thing to note from some who think that their bore may still be copper fouled. If you are using a brass jag when pushing out the whipeout the blue maybe coming from the brass jag.

I also use nylon brushes and Wipe Out...A bore need not be squeaky clean, more bores are ruined from over and improper cleaning than by shooting and that's for sure. You apparently have a rough barrel as most CZs do these days, but if it shoots who cares!

I have a Ruger that shoots 1/2 inch every time for 3 shots unless I clean it then it shoots 2 inches plus for the next 100 to 150 rounds..I have not cleaned it now for about 2 years other than an ocassional pass with a bore snake.

On problem bores you can use a nylon brush wrapped in 0000 steel wool using JBs and Wipeout alternately. polish the bore up to 25 or even 50 strokes, especially if you have a problem area..Then clean it well.

I normally fill the bore with WipeOUt foam, let it sit for 15 to 30 minutes and scrub it with a Nylon brush, wipe it dry with clean patches, wipe it with a patch of Lighter fluid,carbon tech or whatever, then clean it with a good corbon cleaner like Butches, Hoppes or ?, dry it real good and oil it profusely. I do that about once or twice a year, in between these cleanings I only use a bore snake with a little oil on the brushes.

On a real bad bore I use my homemade "Blue Goop" mixture mentioned in my previous post above. It is strong and you can ruin a bore with it if you leave it in more than 30 minutes and fail to clean it when done. Old time bench resters swore by this stuff and still do in some areas.

It a hell of a lot stronger than Sweets.

Damn few big game animals have been killed with a rifle with a clean bore btw.

Careful with steel wool. I have a old 6.5X54 Mannlicher Schoenauer with a dark bore. It used to shoot 3 inch groups with open sights at 100 meters. I tried various methods to clean & polish the bore. Finally I tried a few passes with 0000 steel wool. Now it shoots 12 inch groups with a scope! Some of the bullets seem to key hole on the paper at 100 meters!

Steel wool takes metal off the barrel bore - even the finest grade.

I have now got some carburetor cleaner & I am amazed at how effective it is. I used it on what I thought was clean bore and it came out brown. More wipe out got thick Blue stuff out again!

The bore has several layers of carbon & copper fouling!

When you guys apply Wipeout, do you use the long applicator hose or just place the nozzle on the crown and spray towards the chamber?

I use Wipeout Patch out - this is a liquid in a plastic bottle with dropper nozzle. The Accellerator also comes in a similar bottle.

I just apply the liquid drops on a patch and stroke the bore a few times to get it foaming & let it sit anything from 5 minutes to 24 hours.

I make sure to push a rag into the breach so that the blue gunk does not get into the magazine, stock etc.

Here is a nice test of copper removers:
http://www.coretacsolutions.co...cts_KG_KG12_TEST.htm

I use KG SF-112, which will cut through copper and carbon at once. (If you have "multilayer" carbon and copper fouling, it is sometimes hard to remove and it needs alternating of carbon solvent and copper remover, but not with this product). It is many times faster than M-pro 7 copper remover (I have both).

When copper fouling disappear, I use Eezox.

Jiri

After doing a test of over a doxen different barrels, some factory some custom, rifled by most every way, including hammer forged, button and cut rifling, the quickest and easiest way to COMPLETELY clean a heavily copper and or powder fouled barrel, was with J&B Bore Paste or Remclean.

The worst fouling barrel would take 3 or 4 applications of Wipeout. usually we wouold do one hour for the first, two to 4 hours for the second a then over night for the third application. Three 10 stroke applications of J&B or Rem Clean would totally clean this same barrel.

All results were confirmed with a bore scope.

Another thing I discovered that no matter what "liquid" you used to clean the barrel, if the last liquid you put in the barel was a couple of wet patches of Prolix, then two or three dry patches, the first round would hit with the rest of the rounds fired. ie no wild shots from the fresh cleaned barrel.

Lately I have been using Ballsitol to clean my barrels and leave them wet with it while in the safe. Every once in a while I clean them with J&B or Remclean...

I always use Prolix before I shoot them, and I use Prolix to punch out the barrels when on a hunt after firing the rifle.

Even in pretty wet weather I have not had any rust form in a barrel after using Prolix.

And on some hunts my barrels have gotten pretty wet inside from rain, snow and once when I broke through the ice on a snowmobile. My rifle was totally under water for over 7 minutes

Lucklly the snow mobile engine and I were not under water with the rifle.

PS in some rifle barrels powder foulding can be as big of a problem as copper fouling. J&B or Remclean get both of them completely out.

You do not have to use it every time you clean, but it does work 100%.

I have seen no evidence that it shortens barrel life in barrels shot a lot and rapidly,in short periods of time, ie Competition barrels.

"...no wild shots from the fresh cleaned barrel.."
I don't agree.It is not for nothing that the first shot from a clean barrel is called a fouling shot.There is nothing that you can do to make it always hit with the others.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
After doing a test of over a doxen different barrels, some factory some custom, rifled by most every way, including hammer forged, button and cut rifling, the quickest and easiest way to COMPLETELY clean a heavily copper and or powder fouled barrel, was with J&B Bore Paste or Remclean.

The worst fouling barrel would take 3 or 4 applications of Wipeout. usually we wouold do one hour for the first, two to 4 hours for the second a then over night for the third application. Three 10 stroke applications of J&B or Rem Clean would totally clean this same barrel.

All results were confirmed with a bore scope.

Hmmm...you've peaked my interest on the Rem Clean stuff. What kind of product is it, a paste or a liquid? When you mention "10 strokes" to get the barrel clean, are you using a brush or a patch?

Just cleaned my Mk V .378 today with BTE and it was a breeze. Tried Wipeout, and found it very frustrating. Tried from the muzzle and breech and foam went everywhere.

Ran 4 patches of BTE through the bore, then 15 strokes of nylon brush, then 4 more patches of BTE. Finished off with 2 dry patches and all done. 10-15mins

If you are going to use the foam. Get the $3 nozzle. Makes for very little mess.

When I travel I can't take the pressurized can, so I take the accelerator and the liquid. I think the liquid works almost as well.

On my Dyna Bore Coated varmint rifle, it takes six patches to clean completely after 200+ rounds.

Well, the nozzle I got didn't fit the can -- messed all over the top when I used it. Still hate the stuff...

quote:

Originally posted by BNagel:
Well, the nozzle I got didn't fit the can -- messed all over the top when I used it. Still hate the stuff...

Yes, very messy. I will see if I can get the applicator hose and give it another try.

Still find BTE much faster though.

RemClean is a thick liquid. I also mix Prolix with J&B bore paste to thin it out a little making it easier to use.

I put it on a patch that is wrapped around a used bore brush.

shootaway

I have been shooting rifles since the mid 1960's.

Some barrels have more problems with the first round out than others...

I freely admit, that I stumbled upon this Prolix "treatment" by accident.

I have tried it on several barrels, now they have been quality barrels, but still it has been 100% effective in causing the first round out of a clean barrel to hit with the following rounds.

I have also used it alone to "punch out" a barrel I am shooting quite a bit at the range. Again there is no shift in zero of the first round.

Give it a try.

What I do is, after whatever I use to clean a barrel, I use a very wet patch or two of Prolix, for several strokes in the barrel then I make sure to dry out the chamber and barrel before I shoot again.

Result, no wild first shot...

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
shootaway

I have been shooting rifles since the mid 1960's.

Some barrels have more problems with the first round out than others...

I freely admit, that I stumbled upon this Prolix "treatment" by accident.

I have tried it on several barrels, now they have been quality barrels, but still it has been 100% effective in causing the first round out of a clean barrel to hit with the following rounds.

I have also used it alone to "punch out" a barrel I am shooting quite a bit at the range. Again there is no shift in zero of the first round.

Give it a try.

What I do is, after whatever I use to clean a barrel, I use a very wet patch or two of Prolix, for several strokes in the barrel then I make sure to dry out the chamber and barrel before I shoot again.

Result, no wild first shot...

Some of the comments you made with regard to cleaning tell me that you lack some shooting experience.

Well I guess then further conversations between us are unnecessary.

I now alternate back & forth with Wipe-out & Carb-out.

Usually a few Carb-out patches. Then sit in Wipe-out over night. Patch it out with Carb-out. Check for more copper with Patch-out. If still present...another round of Wipe-out.

The Carb-out really is good stuff.

NAKIHUNTER,
0000 Steel wool will not damage metal, or at least hasn't damaged my guns over the last 70 years of cleaning..

I don't know what you did to your gun, but based on your posts I got a hunch you ruined the bore with a brass or aluminum cleaning rod, happens all the time. Just my two bits..to each his own.

Sorry Ray, but my experience is different!

Yes I am aware of cleaning rod issue and I use a bore guide so the rod does not rub the bore. It is SS rod. Brass & aluminium are softer than steel!.

Steel wool does scratch barrel steel. You can use SW to remove rust, polish the metal etc. Mildly pitted surfaces can be buffed with SW to minimise the pits, if not completely remove them. All the sharp edges will round off with SW.

I wrapped a bit of SW on a small bristle brush and tried to scrub the bor, hoping it will polish it. What happened was that the grooves were still dark as the SW did not get into the grooves far enough to give them a good scrub. But I believe that the lands got scrubbed & probably the muzzle / crown got scrubbed.

If you look carefully at the muzzle end when using a bristle brush, you will note that the brush come out at an angle on most passes! I think this might have screwed up my crown.

Anyway. I now plan to counter sink the bore by 10mm so that barrel profile does not change in the full length stock that I made a few years ago.