I am looking to do a plains game hunt for October 2011 in South Africa. Who are the outfitters that should be avoided?

OH BOY! This ought to be interesting!!!!!!!!!!!

Na, don't do it this way. Hang around a few weeks. PM some people who have gone(real good advise). Go to a show or two.

Do the Dallas Safari Club Convention with us!!!


Just don't ask that question first!!!!!


Dulcinea

I agree..with previous posts, this is certainly a post of a newbie on AR...PLEASE take no offense, people on here can get pretty vocal...enjoy the site, you will learn a lot, but you better get some thick skin.

There are multiple agents, who book hunts on this website, call them all, Mark Young, David Keith, Wade Derby...all of them very knowledgable and friendly.

Oryxhunter,

I'm touched! You consider me friendly? Now that is a compliment. Let's snuggle up for some hot choclate.

I do have some ideas about plains game hunts that I've actually been on.

Mark

Statistically speaking your question is very difficult and very easy.

The easy part - all those you will not end up hunting with or talking to more than once.

The hard part - why the negative approach? I have never hunted Africa but keep planning for that dream hunt. I am just doing my research to see what I want to hunt & what I can afford.

Once I settle on my budget of say $20k including flights and taxidermy, I now know that I can only afford a plains game hunt & not buffalo or leopard that I really want to hunt. Now I have to decide what kind of hunting I want to do - bush, grassland, low hills, near water, traditional camp or lodge etc. I know that I want to walk & stalk. I am not chasing big trophies but am keen on indigenous local species and not imports. My list is Kudu, Eland, Nyala, Bushbuck, Gemsbuck, Duiker, Impala, Wart hog, Zebra and the samll antelopes. A caracl would be a real bonus. I also want to hunt birds for 2 days.

Now I have to look at who offers these species at the affordable rates. Do I have to hunt in two different areas or can I get my list of animals in one area? Now I have a narrow list of regions.

I then decide whom among the AR members I have been corresponding with that I trust for advise and recommendations. This is a very critical decision for me. I then send my list to those trusted few who have a good reputation & get their input. Based on the replies - That is the shortlist of outfitters that I contact for my hunt. I will then select the ones I am most comfortable with based on email & phone discussions. I doubt that any bad outfitter will get on to the list at all.

I am actually going to get a map and understand the regions, species available, outfitters etc. That will be an interesting exercise in its own right.

I am going to then make my own safari dream map! Hey....that was great to just develop my own plan....

Good luck with yours!

Constructoman, I feel a better way to start is:

1. look at what your interested in hunting.
2. management, mature or trophy animals?
3. indigenous only or an area that offers as many different species as possible (RSA has both)
4. Budget. This outfit will be lower here, higher there. The next outfit will be higher here, lower there....it will average out to about the same if your hunting with a good outfit that offers quality game and hunting. If for example you have $10K (US) to spend on hunting alone, work from that angle instead of being pushed into a $15K "deal" that's not really what you wanted.
5. Game desired: prioritize your wanted list.
Putting together a plan will help you get started on what YOU want to do, not what 10 other people throw at you. It's your hunt and most all PH's/Agents will work for you; as it should be. There are several excellent agents and consultants on AR. It all comes down to who you feel comfortable with.
Good hunting,
David

I'll give you a piece of advice that will save you thousands of dollars. Resist the urge to book now or even at the shows in January. Wait until Sept 2011. Then check for "late season specials" on this forum. For each one that you fancy (and 90% of them will be legit and worthwhile), do some research (references etc.) Pick the one that strikes your fancy.

There is NO shortage of plains game destinations, and there will be deals next year.

If you can't sit on your hands, then spend some time learning about the different areas/countries, species, and styles of hunting. There are basically 3 choices: Kalahari species in Namibia/Botswana; Lowveld species in limpopo drainage (both sides of the border); or Eastern Cape smorgasbord. Well I would add a fourth, KZN, where you will find many of the lowveld species plus some special ones (Nyala, Red Duiker, Blue Duiker ..)

You will probably end up doing all of these hunts, so it doesn't matter much which one you pick first.

What Russ said.

Rich

Agreed with others.....but while we're at it avoid Nyaka Safaris AT ALL COSTS!!!!!!!!!!! The owner is Theunis DeBruin and he is to be avoided.

Brett

I'll reply to the question as you asked it: First: Avoid those hunting outfitters that run down or belittle other hunting outfitters!
Second: Avoid those that want to advise you to go elsewhere - South Africa was your choice and this country has more than enough to offer. Please choose a South African hunting outfitter!

Best of luck with your further research and hunt.

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Agreed with others.....but while we're at it avoid Nyaka Safaris AT ALL COSTS!!!!!!!!!!! The owner is Theunis DeBruin and he is to be avoided.

Brett

When did you hunt with him?

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Oryxhunter,

I'm touched! You consider me friendly? Now that is a compliment. Let's snuggle up for some hot choclate.
Mark

How did you know that I loved hot-chocolate? I'm sure we could enjoy it, as long as we didn't have to talk to each other!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:
I'll reply to the question as you asked it: First: Avoid those hunting outfitters that run down or belittle other hunting outfitters!
Second: Avoid those that want to advise you to go elsewhere - South Africa was your choice and this country has more than enough to offer. Please choose a South African hunting outfitter!

Best of luck with your further research and hunt.

Andrew McLaren

"Avoid those that want to advise you to go elsewhere - South Africa was your choice and this country has more than enough to offer. Please choose a South African hunting outfitter!"

ask the guys who live in RSA who they would hunt with if they had to pay for a hunt a few name to start with would be STEVE,The other STEVE, AUBREY,LUAN, and any number of other regulars on AR good luck

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Agreed with others.....but while we're at it avoid Nyaka Safaris AT ALL COSTS!!!!!!!!!!! The owner is Theunis DeBruin and he is to be avoided.

Brett

When did you hunt with him?

Jeff

Bwana Bunduki,

My first safari was in Mahenge South OA on the west central border of the Selous propper in 2006. Nyaka Safaris/TJ DeBruin had subleased the concession for that year and was offering reasonably priced 7 day buffalo hunts through an incompitent/ignorant/both booking agent from Pennsilvania named Bob Fiss. My uncle and cousin were planning to go and I wanted to go with them. My cousin found the hunt and was excited about the deal after speaking to Bob. I didn't know much about.....well anything at the time, but wanted to look around some more before committing. By nothing but luck (because I didn't know a damn thing) I stumbled on Wendell Riech's website and found a 10 day Luke Samaras Selous buffalo hunt and tried to talk them in to it. It was more money, but not a lot more (and in hind sight REALLY not a lot more to avoid what I got). At any rate they decided they didn't want the extra 3 days and the price of the first hunt was better (big mistake). So we went at the end of August 2006.

There were buffalo, but the rains were late/grass was high that year and hunting was hard...very hard. We weren't all successful on buffalo and plains game was hard to secure due to poaching and the grass. That I'm not upset about. That's bad luck/poor timing of the hunt on our part and I realise that. Anyway what I did have a problem with was for starters my PH JS (John Smit???)was a South African. I'm questioning at this point if he ever did hold a Tanz PH license. He didn't know ANYTHING! The animals, the area, trophy evaluation, and even sexing certain animals.......actually most animals. The trackers and camp staff HATED him as he wasn't the friendliest to them and I found out through my cousin's PH (David Masambi a native black Tanzanian)he was stealing tips from them. He would take the staff's tip money at the end of the hunt from the client to "distribute" to them himself. Needless to say we handed them their money in person at the end of our hunt. The head tracker actually pretended he didn't speak English (I found out at the end of the hunt) so he wouldn't have to deal with him. They would comunicate through the assistant tracker at all times. Looking back it was rather comical. I found this out of course at the end of the hunt when the PH was up front driving and I was in the back speaking to him in my broken Swahili while he spoke to me in his broken English. Nice guy. The PHs relationship really affected things. I don't think the crew was really interested in hunting as a result and the PH was pretty well content with driving the roads all day if possible. He had clients of his own coming in after us and repeatedly stopped the truck in an area with cell reception to speak to them about their upcoming hunt. The last day of our hunt was clearly spent scouting for a hippo for bait and potential places to hang it for lion. The few times we did get out and track buffalo he was only nominally committed to do so. We would go for a way and then he would have some excuse as to why we needed to give it up. It got frustrating, but hey what do I know. First safari trust your PH.

Anyway when we got back to Dar we spoke to TJ DeBruin on the phone who appologized for the hunt and offered to either take us back on another hunt the following year at a discount or to refer us to a friend and refund some of our money to help pay for the hunt. Although we weren't impressed with the hunt we were impressed with how he handled the situation and his offer was at least entertained.

At any rate the big problems with TJ DeBruin really began after the hunt. When we returned we were in sporatic contact with TJ. Bob Fiss the booking agent had no idea what was going on most of the time, so I spent a considerable amount of time on the phone to RSA trying to one work out the details of the future hunt and two get what trophies we did get home. As far as his offer it ended up I couldn't go the next year anyway. My uncle and cousin were still interested. TJ wasn't going back to Tanz, so he referred my uncle and cousin to Said Kawawa Safaris. My cousin was to have a refund of part of his money to put towards this hunt as per TJs mouth. That never happened and still hasn't to this day. Quite luckily though my uncle and cousin had an extremely successful buffalo hunt taking some VERY nice buffalo and topi from Gombe GCA. I say luckily because the more I found out about the outfitter and concession (fly by night) the more I reasize what a chance they took.....but it worked. As to the trophies there were delays, delays, delays. Finally after well over a year of waiting TJ was forward enough to say he owed the concession holder some money and the trophies were waiting on payment. Of course the check was in the mail.........for months.......and months.........and months. Finally 2ish I think years later he said they were cleared and all he needed was my uncle and I to send money for shipping. We wired him $900 for shipping as our trophies he said would be shipped together in that same crate. That never happened. It's been 4 years now and I'll never see any of the trophies or the money he stole for "shipping". Quite frankly I'm not on a trophy kick (getting them mounted), so I don't really care. I hunted the animals. I had my fun. That's what matters to me.

I've since mentioned the name TJ DeBruin to a few RSA people who rolled their eyes and laughed at some of the lies he told me about himself......like he was a minister. One guys reply was: "Of what?". Anyway he's a liar and a thief. Have you ever met someone that lies so much that they can't remember their own lies and tell you a different story every time they speak to you? We'll that's him. It was pathetic. I've chalked the whole thing up to an expensive learning experience of what not to do. I have MANY more hunts to go and that one taught me a lot......of what not to do! I really wish I could have talked my uncle and cousin into booking with Wendell and hunting with Luke Samaras, but that's life. Since then I've made it a mission to learn everything I can about hunting in Africa, so in the future me being unsuccessful can only be atributed to the hunt gods and luck. Anyway that's my story on TJ DeBruin and Nyaka Safaris.

Brett

PS. He's also big in the canned lion "industry". Not perhaps anywhere as bad as the other things I've mentioned, but it further adds to his poor character/detractors in my book. And he still owes my uncle $450 and his trophies , my cousin $1500, and me $1950 and my trophies . Needless to say I've stopped calling and have written it off.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Oryxhunter,

I'm touched! You consider me friendly? Now that is a compliment. Let's snuggle up for some hot choclate.

I do have some ideas about plains game hunts that I've actually been on.

Mark

Your a nice guy Mark, you just don't want your old friends back in Maine to know it.

Brett,

Your story made me shudder. Damn! No shows and skullduggery like what you experienced portray African hunting in such a bad light. At least now, with the internet, AR and other sites, people have access to so much more info on agents, operators, areas, hunters....Before it was just 'Saw nothing, shot nothing and got ripped off in SA, Zim, wherever.....' Even if the operator/area was mentioned, the country concerned would more than likely be what the listener would remember. Now at least the prospective client is able to do some proper research and make sure he hunts with a reputable outfit in a decent area.

David

Constructoman - There are thousands of Outfitters and PH's in South Africa - not all of them are legit, honest or ethical.
Do your homework - check if they are members of PHASA (usually dodgy operators DO NOT want to be members of an organisation - as they do not want to be caught out doing something wrong)Make sure that whome ever you choose has been in the business for at least 15 years - has a solid track record, honest in their dealings - and is respected by his fellow hunters in the business - and it's also not a bad idea to check references - yes we may only put our good clients up as references - but believe me if you ask the right questions, you WILL get the right answers ! Avoid Outfitters or PH's who only do this job part time - or have other business interests outside of hunting - they may not be solely focused on making your hunt a success. Experience has taught me that the people who rely on hunting to make a living, and pay the bills - will put their heart and souls into making sure the client has a successfull hunt ! A happy client is a repeat client !!

quote:

Experience has taught me that the people who rely on hunting to make a living, and pay the bills - will put their heart and souls into making sure the client has a successfull hunt ! A happy client is a repeat client !!

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:
I'll reply to the question as you asked it: First: Avoid those hunting outfitters that run down or belittle other hunting outfitters!
Second: Avoid those that want to advise you to go elsewhere - South Africa was your choice and this country has more than enough to offer. Please choose a South African hunting outfitter!

Best of luck with your further research and hunt.

Andrew McLaren

Andrew, my HERO...and to Mark de Wet, i think your not fair and generalizing to much about PH's and Outfitters that hasn't 15 years plus experience. I run a respected hunting business and do run it part time with success and only with 7 years experience. You did not became one of the best outfits in S.A overnight...


PLEASE SEE THREAT OF Andrew McLaren point no. 1...

Brett,

Ugly buis. for sure. It is in fact a round world. Sometimes it just takes a while to come back around.

Jeff

Constructoman,
Don't do it. Put it down and step away. These guys are worse than meth dealers. They get you hooked then the next thing you know, your selling all/most of your worldly possesion to go back, again and again and again. Several forum members can vouch for me on this.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Brett,

Ugly buis. for sure. It is in fact a round world. Sometimes it just takes a while to come back around.

Jeff

Oh anybody who behaves like that on a regular basis, which I'm sure he does will get theirs in the end. I'm sure of that. Have you had experience with TJ DeBruin or Nyaka Safaris?

Brett

Valid question, but good luck getting straight answers.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark DeWet:

Avoid Outfitters or PH's who only do this job part time - or have other business interests outside of hunting - they may not be solely focused on making your hunt a success. Experience has taught me that the people who rely on hunting to make a living, and pay the bills - will put their heart and souls into making sure the client has a successfull hunt ! A happy client is a repeat client !!

1.Mark please specify what part time means for you.
2.i some times wonder what is better 10 quality hunts a year or 30 hunts pushed thrue like a sausage machine
3. i don't think that it makes a difference if you are part time or full time it comes down to the person and how professional he is

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:
1.Mark please specify what part time means for you.
2.i some times wonder what is better 10 quality hunts a year or 30 hunts pushed thrue like a sausage machine
3. i don't think that it makes a difference if you are part time or full time it comes down to the person and how professional he is

Who would you rather hunt with ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL: A guy who's very professional and only gets out once or twice a year or a guy who's very professional and hunts all year long and isn't the least bit rusty and is totaly on top of everything going on in the hunting area because he hunts it?

Brett

I think as a responsible hunter you should avoid outfitters that offer canned lionhunts or other freak hunts (tiger or whatever) and you should avoid farms that do obviously only put&take hunts!

375fanatic - Part time means simply that - a person who does not hunt regularly, but has other business committments,another method of making a living or hunts purely in between his other main job - the hunting industry is continually changing - and there are new developments, laws and events happenning everyday, and personally if you are not involved at the "coal face" on a day to day basis,you might be caught short somewhere along the line.
Would you go to a doctor, who practices medicine, say once a month , in between him also being a motor mechanic ????
I am not saying that there are not some good part time hunters out there - but realistically you cannot stay focused if you have too many irons in the fire !

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:
I think as a responsible hunter you should avoid outfitters that offer canned lionhunts or other freak hunts (tiger or whatever) and you should avoid farms that do obviously only put&take hunts!

Translation,

Don't hunt in the Free State.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:
I think as a responsible hunter you should avoid outfitters that offer canned lionhunts or other freak hunts (tiger or whatever) and you should avoid farms that do obviously only put&take hunts!

Translation,

Don't hunt in the Free State.

Rubbish

Some of the best fair chase spirngbok, blesbok, hartebeest and wildebeest can be had in the Free State as well as many other difficult species such as Vaalies, Klippies and Eland.

Some safari companies you might want to avoid:

1. Cape town central safaris and tours
2. The Soweto car hire and hunting company
3. Fences R US
4. Never never again safaris
5. Blesbok world

quote:

Originally posted by MD375:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:
I think as a responsible hunter you should avoid outfitters that offer canned lionhunts or other freak hunts (tiger or whatever) and you should avoid farms that do obviously only put&take hunts!

Translation,

Don't hunt in the Free State.

Rubbish

Some of the best fair chase spirngbok, blesbok, hartebeest and wildebeest can be had in the Free State as well as many other difficult species such as Vaalies, Klippies and Eland.

And some of the best canned lion hunting to be had.

quote:

375fanatic - Part time means simply that - a person who does not hunt regularly, but has other business committments,another method of making a living or hunts purely in between his other main job - the hunting industry is continually changing - and there are new developments, laws and events happenning everyday, and personally if you are not involved at the "coal face" on a day to day basis,you might be caught short somewhere along the line.
Would you go to a doctor, who practices medicine, say once a month , in between him also being a motor mechanic ????
I am not saying that there are not some good part time hunters out there - but realistically you cannot stay focused if you have too many irons in the fire !

Mark, I agree 110%. It is my belief that part time PH's / outfitters are one of the biggest threats to hunting professioanlly.

At the top of my list.

NEVER hunt with any PH who has received the SCI Hunter Of The Year Award!

The likelyhood of you being taken for a ride increase far beyond the normal average!

well said Saeed
I would stick to the outfitters and agents that are open enough to advertise on sites like AR,
PM sent

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

quote:

375fanatic - Part time means simply that - a person who does not hunt regularly, but has other business committments,another method of making a living or hunts purely in between his other main job - the hunting industry is continually changing - and there are new developments, laws and events happenning everyday, and personally if you are not involved at the "coal face" on a day to day basis,you might be caught short somewhere along the line.
Would you go to a doctor, who practices medicine, say once a month , in between him also being a motor mechanic ????
I am not saying that there are not some good part time hunters out there - but realistically you cannot stay focused if you have too many irons in the fire !

Mark, I agree 110%. It is my belief that part time PH's / outfitters are one of the biggest threats to hunting professioanlly.

This is absolute bull was it part timers that was caught with the rhino's and leopards. i dont think so

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

quote:

375fanatic - Part time means simply that - a person who does not hunt regularly, but has other business committments,another method of making a living or hunts purely in between his other main job - the hunting industry is continually changing - and there are new developments, laws and events happenning everyday, and personally if you are not involved at the "coal face" on a day to day basis,you might be caught short somewhere along the line.
Would you go to a doctor, who practices medicine, say once a month , in between him also being a motor mechanic ????
I am not saying that there are not some good part time hunters out there - but realistically you cannot stay focused if you have too many irons in the fire !

Mark, I agree 110%. It is my belief that part time PH's / outfitters are one of the biggest threats to hunting professioanlly.

This is absolute bull was it part timers that was caught with the rhino's and leopards. i dont think so

As I understand with the current rhino poaching it was done with the help of full time vets and part time poaching crooks! The alledged mastermind, Dawie Groenewald of OoAAS, is only a "Part Time" hunting outfitter - his full time occupation is being a crook!


In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

I recommend Nitro Safari, in Northern Cape around Douglas ZA.

I used them my my first plain game hunt and was extrememly satisfied. Booked everything thru Cabela's Outdoor Adventures, they took the hassle out of me trying to use several booking agents, ie airline, outfitter, service for entry into customs and permits in ZA. Cabela's took care of me very well.

Talk with local hunters who have hunted in Africa. Yes I am selling everything I can to go back soon. I am 60 years old and wish I hadn't waited so long. Go while you are young...

funny enough talking about the above last week i saw a chap in his double cab hi-lux with two stickers.... i cannot remember the names but it was something like this.

left - "piets construction cc"
right - "piets hunting safaris cc"

and the best of it all was the state of the art shooting bench ontop of his vehicle, man with that thing you could easly blat an animal from a mile