Cheap, the word was "cheap".

I would also like to say that YES it does affect me! Do you not think daily rates are impacted by the aggregate amount of money that is expected to be tipped to a PH over the season? Surely they are! Now, assume a significant number of people don't tip that year. Suddenly it is quite likely that daily rates will be raised the next year to compensate for what is perceived to be a declining trend in tips. That means that those of us who do tip wind up tipping AND paying higher daily rates as a result of those who offer shoelaces and bic lighters.

Best,

John

quote:

Do you not thing daily rates are impacted by the aggregate amount of money that is expected to be tipped to a PH over the season?

No. And if it was that it is entirely your problem anyway, and I couldn't care a stuff.

Market forces, mate, not a 'planned' socialist economy.

You would pay higher rates because you are used to spending more money on over-priced US hunts, where the Aussie standard is to try to pay NOTHING for hunting at all. Twenty years ago there was next to NO paid hunting in this country at all. I have seen Aussie hunters complaining about having to pay $20 for a weeks hunting access.

But a line I learned from an acquaintance in Africa when addressing a black beggar:

"Don't make YOUR problem, my problem."

I found that a very useful quotation to memorise.

quote:

declining trend in tips ...

I think it works the other way. As more guys over-tip having absolutely no concept of what local wages and incomes are, they build up unrealistic expectations as the originator of this thread showed very clearly.

Really give the fuck whatever you want.

The real problem in most countries is foreign clients (I won't name countries ) with fat wallets out-pricing the local hunters out of the domestic hunting scene eg like is the case in South Africa today where few South African hunters can afford to hunt big game in their own land.

A good marxist like you should give donations to the local guys to make up for the negative economic external costs of your hunting in their country ( ) and driving up the prices out of their domestic remunerative scale. I only say that because I know externalities are dear to a Marxist's heart. That should make you burn with liberal guilt.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
And if it was that it is entirely your problem anyway, and I couldn't care a stuff..

Hey, YOU asked why it matters to me what others tip and I answered. Replying to a logical response essentially with "tough shit" doesn't constitute an argument.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
The real problem in most countries is foreign clients (I won't name countries ) with fat wallets out-pricing the local hunters out of the domestic hunting scene.

Well, I guess that's just THEIR problem right? Tough shit!

Now I'm sure everyone on this thread is a really great guy but imagine for a moment that you have to spend two weeks - day and night- with them under demanding conditions and keep your cool and act professional. What would you wish for compensation?

458,

Exactly right! The more time I spend on this site, quite honestly, the more I realize I really like about 10 people I know here and the rest just make hunters look bad. And yes, sometimes, due to the nature of the conversations, the person I dislike most on this site is me. Seems issues like this bring out the worst in all people and that the maxim is true....don't wrestle with pigs unless you are willing to get pretty dirty yourself.

JMHO,

John

JTG,

If you really are a marxist as alledged then I can surely understand your self loathing hatred!

Almost if your a Democrat!

Nitrox,

Your getting your dander up for no real reason. You won't change my view and I won't change yours so this is all just insignificant banter.

But I will point out that African hunting, for better or worse, is domonated by American hunters. American tipping customs are the de facto order of the day, including the element of performance pay.

You will never know about the elephant hunt that was steered to the better paying client. Your inquiry will merely result in, "tsch, eh, tough break, that hunt was sold." Sold to a tipping, ie, higher paying, customer.

I fully comprehend JTG's comments about tippers subsidising non tippers and daily rates being based on the agregate PH income over a seaon. I don;t like to subsidize but hey ain't nothin but a thang. But what strikes me as foolish is the willingness to make yourself uncompetative for but a small fraction of the total cost of a hunt.

And you can groan all you want about compareing some interstate witress to a PH but try the best restraunts in say NY or anywhere else and you will find that the waitress on I70 is getting paid a base rate from the diner for handling $5 specials not a whole lot less than the proffessional witer in NY for handling $300/person dinners that are actually worth the price. The difference is in the performance pay.

You are trying to impose your Aussie standards on an element of the economy of the safari host nations that is pretty well Americanised. You can bitch about the facts but you can't change them. To me swimming against the tide on this point isn't worth being uncompetative. Big tips go to those who provide exceptional service and performance, in other words places I want to return to. Can ot be more clear?

JPK

If you are in a service business and depend on tips , your in the wrong business. I've been on both sides.
Guided for a while in Ak. Didn't like it, quit. I appreciated any amount of tip, if any, that I got. If I received no tip, I was not offended.
On the other side, if I feel that I received service above and beyond what I paid for, I tip, if not, I don't tip. Simple system. No formula, just what I want to give.
If I receive bad service from anyone and don't tip, I could give a damn less what they think of me. I probably won't go back anyway.
Short story about tipping............
I was visiting a friend (guide)on the Ak. Peninsula last year.One of his Assistant guides and a customer shot a bear close to the lodge. The guide came to the lodge and asked if any of the other Asst. guides wanted to help him? They refused. It was dark by then. I figured what the hell, I was just sitting around drinking beer and bullshitting anyway, and needed the exercise. I raised my hand.
I grabbed my hipboots and a packboard. He did all the work, all I did was hold a foot and the light. The hunter stood around drinking tequila.
I got a little concerned on the way back. Here' s this old guy, (me) in the dark, trying to keep up with a couple young bucks, slogging through the tundra and crossing creeks hip deep on a tall Indian. I thought I was going to drown! I didn't, and we made it back to camp.
Here's the kicker, the Guide gave ME a $100 tip for helping him! I tried to refuse, but he would not have it.

JPK

Maybe the potential for the outfitter to get follow-up and return business from some clients heavily outweighs the "insignificant" tips.

It is all relative. As said none of the staff (except one waiter) have even been unhappy with what I have given them. Many have been very pleased and have had big smiles. As for Professional Hunters, well they ARE paid proper rates. I give them a gift.

I wonder how the staff react to the "tippers" who leave a lump sum in the bosses hands and think they are big shots . From my actual experience in Africa I know that in many cases, only a small proportion gets through to staff. I know from experience in East Africa when a group of us put together a tip for the black staff, the boss blackie pocketed 95% of it and handed a five to the other staff member. That's how it works in Africa.

One outfitter I used claims he gave his staff $200 per safari for tips NO matter HOW much the clients tipped. He wanted the money all handed to him. To me it sounded very suspiciously like wages and not extra tips. So the guys giving oodles, do they get any benefit from it? No staff member would have any idea what the individual client gave.

In the East African example above we decided to put together some more and then handed it out to the rest individually. Which IMO is the ONLY way to do it. Else I think you are just fooling yourselves.

I did tip send some money to the staff of the outfitter who "regulates and averages" his staff's tips. I sent money over for them which I HOPE was passed on, as I couldn't do it in person as we had all been thrown off the property by "Warvets" and more or less the staff had lost their livelihoods. I felt sorry for them and their difficult future circumstances.

***

Phil Shoemaker (458Win)

Talking about tipping in a camp is very unprofessional especially by the outfitter or PH unless prompted by a question. Much more interesting things to discuss in camps.

But you make very big assumptions, some of us when hunting, just want to hunt and have a good time. When in this place people just look to pick holes in arguments.

The quality of discussion here is really crashing. I can't see you adding much content to the quality of discussions with your quite rude comments.

Nitrox,

I'm sure repeat business from clients is important to the safari operator. Reason screams that the best repeat business is with the higher paying customer. "Tsch, eh, sorry old boy, that hunt was sold.". To a higher paying customer who manifests his apreciation of excellent service.

If you are quoting my use of the word "insugnificant" you take it out of context. The tip is significant to the recipient, but insignificant with regard to the cost of the whole trip for the hunter, especially if you include ALL expenses, such as taxidermy, etc. This is one of the beautiful aspects of tipping in this venue. Assume a PH gets paid $100/day for an 18 day trip. Assume he gets tipped $100/day because his service and performance were exceptional. The client just made a very significant incentive payment to the PH which recognized his excellent performance by increasing his pay 100%. At the same time he added on the order of 3% to his total cost. Significant on the one hand and insignificant on the other.

Again as I pointed out in an earlier post, you will never really know whether the camp staff was happy or ended up cursing you after you left, just as I will never know if they were laughing at me.

One area in which we appear to be in absolute agreement is the issue of giving tips to the individual staff member. Its MY payment based on MY assesment of the performance of that staff member. I may seek the input and advise of the PH but its MY decision. I have no interest is aiding someone else's income redistribution scheme so I keep pooled tipping to an absolute, bare, inescapable minimum.

JPK

[Phil Shoemaker (458Win)

Talking about tipping in a camp is very unprofessional especially by the outfitter or PH unless prompted by a question. Much more interesting things to discuss in camps.

But you make very big assumptions, some of us when hunting, just want to hunt and have a good time. When in this place people just look to pick holes in arguments.

The quality of discussion here is really crashing. I can't see you adding much content to the quality of discussions with your quite rude comments.[/QUOTE]

Nitro, You are correct that speaking of tips in camp is rude however this forum is no where near any hunting trip. Most folks are looking for advice and I thought a professional outfitter's and hunters's advice might be helpful to some. Guess I was wrong.

quote:

[Phil Shoemaker (458Win)

Talking about tipping in a camp is very unprofessional especially by the outfitter or PH unless prompted by a question. Much more interesting things to discuss in camps.

But you make very big assumptions, some of us when hunting, just want to hunt and have a good time. When in this place people just look to pick holes in arguments.

The quality of discussion here is really crashing. I can't see you adding much content to the quality of discussions with your quite rude comments.

NitroX, You are correct that speaking of tips in camp can be rude however unless you make a habit of carrying your laptop and reading forums in the bush this forum is no where near any hunting camp that I was aware of. I believe most folks here are looking for advice. After thiry years fo being on both sides of the equation as a professional hunter and big game hunter I have developed some opinions of my own. Exactly how is this rude?


If one argues with a fool long enough one eventually looses track of who the fool is.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Now I'm sure everyone on this thread is a really great guy but imagine for a moment that you have to spend two weeks - day and night- with them under demanding conditions and keep your cool and act professional. What would you wish for compensation?

Well mate you will never have me for a client. Maybe a few others from this thread too.

So I guess it is a win win situation.

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
If you are in a service business and depend on tips, your in the wrong business. I've been on both sides.

Agree with 110% with you. I never hoped, asked or cared if I gotten any tips. To rank clients based on tips or no tips? There are many other factors that determine if a client/guest is considered good or less desirable.....

On a safari, I would give "the tips" directly to those I wanted to tip and not let someone else handle it…

quote:

imagine for a moment that you have to spend two weeks - day and night- with them under demanding conditions and keep your cool and act professional. What would you wish for compensation?
Phil Shoemaker

Tips is not some sort of wage compensation, it's a gift. Ask for decent salary/quote for the job/service that is provided, same old supply and demand. Do you suggest that tips are some sort of mandatory monetary compensation? What would your advice translate into percent or $

JTG, No econometric model in the works to regulate tips?

Cheers
/JOHAN

Tips are performace pay and short term incentive. It just can't be more clear than that.

I'm sure clients are ranked on a variety of basis, all other factors being the same...do I really need to say more?

JPK

I must say we in the United States have a different idea about a tip. In the rest of the world a tip is a token of appreciation and not a substitute for regular wages.

In Africa thanks to us, tips are now part of the wage structure; it is no longer a token of appreciation but a compulsory expectation. The wages of a PH are low because the high tips are factored in.

I want my PH to earn good wages, but I want it to be wages and would willingly pay more for a hunt and still want to tip him for a job well done as a “token†of my appreciation. I don’t want it to be mandatory as it is now, because even if the PH did not do a great job as happened to a friend of mine in Tanzania he still expected to be tipped because in some parts of Africa it is considered wages earned from the client.

Regards
Aziz

Aziz,

I don't get the gripe. If the PH's performance wasn't up to snuff then neither is his tip. 0$'s if he didn't cut it, something better than that but below "good", whatever that might be to your freind, if he faltered here and there but turned in an otherwise reasonable effort and performance.

Beats paying full freight for poor performance!

JPK

Hello JPK

I agree with you but in practice not giving some one a tip that they think is part of their wages creates a huge amount of resentment. I experienced this first hand.

This PH would not hunt on foot and make one excuse after another. He encouraged shots from the vehicle on marginal trophies when the hunter wanted to put in the effort to look for better animals. He over estimated the trophy quality. The PH became very upset when he received an amount less than he was expecting.

Now you tell me could this unpleasantness have been avoided. If the outfitter pays the PH well and the PH does not consider tips as part of his pay from the hunter, I think it may not have happened.

Regards
Aziz

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

You have mentioned a number of points, which are so rediculous as to defy comprehension; at least as far as I am concerned.

1. Why should the amount of money given as a tip be tied to the size of the trophies taken? After all, in South Africa most outfitters probably know all the animals by name.

Thats funny,as a client I have named animals myself while hunting in the rsa.Same animals in tha same place all the time.

I think uzingela may be a bit disappointed in his tip due to actually getting some Rowland -Ward animals for his client in the R.S.A. Even just thru dumb luck that is quite some accomplishment.I've specifically asked my outfitters and phs' about hunting outside of fences and i've been consistently told there is little hunting outside of fences in R.S.A. I am assuming that uzingelas Rowland - Ward animals were killed in the R.S.A. and not in another country.Several r.w.s'on 1 hunt in r.s.a. is probably a world record in itself.

After reading thru this entire thread I am for sure one who has been way overtipping and not just because my wife rolls her eyes when I tell her how much I tipped.I will adjust this in the future somewhere along the lines of john the greek.

I do enjoy tipping but in the R.S.A. really what am I getting in return ? My ph is just a "14 day" wonder out of school and my grandchildren have shot more big game animals than they have.No matter where we hunt the 1st thing they do is go ask the landowner where the game is and drive or walk right to them and shoot.No matter how much of a "dog and pony" show they put on while trying to judge trophy size,they are consistently wrong,when the animal hits the ground t is always far smaller than the ph said it would go,always! and I still get to pay the trophy fee for a sub-standard "trophy".The hunt is always a hurry up deal,just shoot something so we can get back to the lodge and call it a day.

I am absolutely going to re-adjust how much I leave for tips on future hunts !

Aziz,

Hello to you too.

I still don't get it thoguh. I would rather deal with the lazy b'tard's resentment than have to swallow having paid him full price for a poor effort.

Besides, his resentment would have paled in comparison to my own. I just wouldn't have more than one uncomfortable moment. If the fellow had a problem early on I would have had a chat with him - this is the one uncomfortable moment but hey you're the customer and the customer is - almost - always right. Plenty of circumstances where one fellow just wasn't on plan with another fellow! If things either aren't squared away or explained to my satisfaction then I'll try another chat. After that I just would love half an oportunity to tell the lazy b'tard why he wasn't receiving a tip if he brought it up. Money is a replaceable commodity, time is irreplaceable under any circumstances.

I do recognize however, that most fellows are not as forward as I am. I don't pretend to love the first conversation but if its the difference between my having a time of my life and...I won't procrastinate too long. Once the first conversation has been had and I have either an explanation or an agreement then I'm pretty well imune since then the only issue is a fellow breaking his word. I have no sympathy for that.

I talk a hard game here but in practice, in all my life, I have had to have that chat maybe a dozen times with proffesionals of any number of different proffesions or trades from attorneys to CPA's to fishing guides to you name it. I think the willingness to have that chat acts as some sort of innoculation to prevent the nessecity of actually having to have it.

Best,

JPK

Hello guys; Interesting subject...and very sensitive.

I find it interesting, here in the US, that big/quality restaurants continue to annotate their group dinner gratuities ( ie "for parties of 10 or more guests an 18% gratuity will be added to your check") on their menu's perhaps as a method of communicating to everyone what expected tips are at their establishment. It used to be fairly well accepted that 10% was an acceptable tip, now it has gone to 15% and climbing, and over that time meals and drinks have escallated maybe 100-200%...so tips have gone up HOW MUCH?? We recently have been dining at a nice local restaurant, in a small town, where they automatically add a 15% tip to the check...and leave another line where you can add additional tips for service. Interesting, but the quality of service, friendliness and excellent meals often prompt people to be more generous and I do often add another $10-20 for the server!! I will say, however, I generally tip 15% for good service and less as the service and meal deteriorate...down>>> to $ZERO go the tips!!

Now, you go on a cruise on some of the top cruise lines, they almost dictate what you pay to each of your room steward/stewardess, diningroom waiter and bus-persons, bartenders, etc., however move up the ladder on the top of the line small ships gratuities are included in the price...and that is usuallly in the $4-500/day per person cruises. I'll tell you though, at the end of a 14 day+ cruise or at the end of the first week, slipping a $50 or $100 bill to each goes a long way in benefits and service later on!! It is interesting, where the tips are "stated in the room cards...as "suggested"...that's about what we "give"...We think it is personal...when it is not stated, we tend to be more generous...for great service...and again, some deserve lttle to nothing and we have done that too!! It is questionable whether the receivers get together and share info, and learn from thier bad service, if they even care, or get mad...and it gets worse??

I have hunted on 4 of the six major continents over the last 35 years including 13 African safaris. I feel that the tip should go to your guide or PH and the staff, and in general unless guided by one of the owners/outfitters, I question whether they should see any of this money?? Again, as above, I have run the gamut from Zero to actually paying a PH what would normally relate to his daily professional fee because he actually salvaged a change in Government rules that seriously affected the outcome of my hunt [and cost] and he did it at his own cost to protect his reputation...or KEEPING HIS WORD!! We had an outstanding hunt, collected all of the species we were hunting and then some...nothing spectacular as far as trophy size...but had a wonderful experience...and I felt he deserved his daily rate plus a generous tip for this excellent experience.

I am also concerned about the significant escallation in hunt prices these days...I won't go into this as this is even more sensitive...but the hunt price might affect the tips as well. I also see a danger in overtipping and either creating a problem for the Outfitter, especially in Africa, where most clients have no idea what staff make, or what their extra $100 might do to the expectations in the future for other clients or even managability for the PH/outfitter in the future. This supports an argument that staff tips should go to the PH/Outfitter so they are regulated?? That said, I always get advice from the PH/Outfitter and give my gratuities to the staff personally because I enjoy the reactions of these hard working people. I also have never been in a situation NOT to trust the PH/Outfitter in giving the staff their tips...until recently and only once...but I do shy away from this. In the situation mentioned the PH made the staff inaccessable and demanded the tips be paid to him for them!!

In general, I have not hesitated to give a guide/PH 5-10% of a hunt cost as a tip (not the trophy fees, generally). Now that hunt prices are escallating at an alarming rate, I have been reconsidering what the right amount is...I don't think I will follow the restaurant model as mintioned above!! My thoughts, keep it reasonable, make it feel good to the receiver and the giver, and reward excellent performance...you know, LUCK in most cases drives the biggest trophies!!

I am very concerned that PH/Outfitters of late are becoming influenced by deep pockets trophy hunters to the detriment of all. Those that offer the PH at the booking or outset of a hunt and extra tip of $1000, $5000, $10,000 or even $100,000 for such and such [size] trophy!!...or worse yet, call me when you have.... Now most of us aren't capable or even willing to do this...but the rumor mill is full of these as the years go on. Isn't this taking away from the true quality and essence of the hunt?? I think so!!

That's the way I see it!! 470 EDDY

Side note: The Hunting Report has done several articles about this subject, at least one after a survey of subscribers. Interesting reading on line.

When dining in the states I generally tip 20%. On guided hunts I usually tip 10%.
The only cruise I did, it was stated that tipping was not allowed. I assumed you should still tip so I handed a tip to the room maid, and she quickly told me tipping is not allowed. Anyone caught accepting a tip would be immediately fired.
Wouldn't that be interesting to see on a guided hunt.
It was a large stress taken off, as I was trying to figure what to tip everyone. Then when I found out they could not take tips I was more relaxed. I assumed if they were not allowed to accept tips yet continued to work there, they must have been well paid.

I'll bring up again a suggestion I got from a Zim PH while on a 8 day tuskless elephant hunt. This was for the trackers/staff.

His suggestion was: US$50 for the nr 1 tracker, $40 for the nr 2 tracker, and the same for the gamescout, and finally $100 to be given to the "communal pot" which is devided up between all the camp staff.

He also mentioned that a total of US$300 suitably devided up for the trackers/staff on a 10 day trophy ele hunt would be reasonable.

In other words, a fair bit less than what many hunters here apparently consider a decent tip. But when considering the real costs of living for a black african in most African countries, these "average" tips are a lot of money actually.

My understanding the minimum wage in Namibia is $107 a month. Now, if you were making $107 a month, how much of a tip would you expect for a 10 day hunt?
On the advice of our PH, we tipped the tracker and driver $50 each. No one ever gave me 50% of a months wages for a tip. Maybe I didn't earn it?
The Owner/Outfitter/PH refused a tip. Needless to say, I will return.

I don't know any guides who rate their clients on the tips they given. Tips given are simple gifts - or Pilons (Sweetners)as the say along the Tex-Mex border. My point is that I appreciate a amall gift from a working hunter that honestly shows his appreciation more than a large tip given simply because of convention.

I will share with you a recent observation about tips. I took the family to Grand Bahama last week for the kids' spring break. Every restaurant we went to automatically added a 15% gratuity to the bill. I assume this is because so many cruise ships stop here and the restaurants don't want their staff to get stiffed (?). On average, the service was probably not worth 15% simple because the tip was not optional. However, hotel porters, doormen and my fishing guides were working for optional tips and went out of their way to earn a tip. All in all, I would rather have someone serving me that is expecting to earn a tip than one who is not.

That being said, I don't think my PH in Namibia last year work so hard and did such a good job because he wanted a tip. I think it was because he cared about seeing that we had a good hunt. Nonetheless, I was glad to give him a tip for a job well done.

George

quote:

Originally posted by uzingela:
Thanks to everybody that has replied so swiftly, I appologise if I have offended anyone with my post. Thanks Saeed for the welcome and Terry the Roland Ward animals that the client managed to harvest was purely the luck of the draw. It is always great to have lady luck on your side. I have noticed that alot of the members are stating that you do not have to tip a professional (doctor, dentist etc.) I however feel that there is big difference between pulling a tooth, medical checkup and finding 12 respectable animals in 10 days. Maybe the term Professional Hunter should be changed to Hunting Guide. I have never brought up the topic of tipping whilst hunting with a client, I am quite dumb founded that some of you have experienced this. I think in this case the outfitter should be informed on the behaviour of the PH, beleive me I don't think that the particular PH will ever be used again by the Outfitter.

Quote:
"You don't have to kiss my ass and wait on me hand and foot"

I know I am going completely off the topic but what do you as a hunting client expect from your PH? I know there will be alot of mixed feelings on this.

what are the gps coordinates of your rowland ward trophies ?

Somebody way back mentioned that a typical PH makes "just" $18000 per year...But thats actually for working "just" 110 days...As a part time job, thats not bad by UK standards and must be very good by RSA standards..It equates to around $55,000 per year for a regular full time job...Yes the guy has to provide his own vehicle, but as already mentioned, that can be off set against the fact part of his living costs are met...

Also remember that a tip is "cash" and is not taxed, so its actually worth quite a bit more than the same amount in the PH's pay packet...

So are clients being expected to subsidize the PH for not working the other 200 plus days a year with tips?

In reality, from what I have seen, most of the part time contract PH's have second or third jobs for the off season..for some PHing is not even their main bread winner...

JTG lists all the maditory costs of going on safari..one of those costs is the daily rate which in effect pays the PH...

Phil, why do you think you need a big tip just to share a camp with a "difficult" client?

In the past I fixed phones for a living. Some jobs took half an hour in the warm of somebodies house, while at the other end of the scale, some faults took a day or two putting cables on poles up the side of a mountain in terrible weather..

At the end of the month, I got paid the same, regardless of how my working day went...

If a PH should be tipped for giving extra special service, I wonder what that means exactly?

Surely most PH's on regular plains game hunts, are doing no more than their jobs?
They are being paid to be socialable, to run things effeciently, to put clients in front of reasonable animals???

I am with Nitro on this; a TIP should be a gift and not an expected payment as part of the PH's wages..
if things carry on, how long before outfitters will be adding 15% to the final bill and client are still expected to tip cash at the end of the hunt as well? Thats the way things are going in many restaurants and when I find that exytra 15% already added to the bill, I refuse to pay any axtra on principle..

Regards,

Pete

I always tip personally to the PH based on the quality of the experience. Never on the size of an animal.

I tip the skinners and trackers through the PH and I tell them "I left $50 (or whatever amount) for you with the boss, because I have been told they prefer to pay the staff once a month before they go to town.

I give the camp staff tip to the outfitter or lead PH and generally ask them about how much is right for the camp staff.

I agree with Saeed about staff of any sort hinting at tips, or telling tip stories. That's a sure way to get nothing or very little from me.

Todd

As an outfitter I personally do not accept tips and suggest if clients wish to give them they give them to the packers and cook.

Tips are a gift of appreciation period! Whether you are a waiter or a PH. I will tip well to those that go beyond normal duties to help me and those that do the minimum of there duties will recieve a equal amount to their performance or nothing.I tip as much as I can afford which may not be as much as others can tip but it does not mean I appreciate them any less than others.

I'm a taxidermist and I get tips but don't expect it or even think about it.The price structure of my work does not include any provisions for expected tips.I work just as hard and put in just as much time for someone that has to count pennies to pay me or some of my clients that are multi millonares.The repeat buisness and the look on your face when you are thouroughly thrilled with the quality of the work is the best tip you can give me.

I feel very uncomfortable when I'm told to give a tip and in what manner. I like to give the tip personally to the person I wish to tip.I would prefer to give it in a evelope with a note. Makes it more personal for me and the recipient.The time to give it would be when I can see them in private most of the time but I go with the flow as to when.

I like to give money as a gift but I also may give something else that I think the person would like. So what if the PH has already been given ten hunting knives or ten flashlights, the person receiving the gift should be happy regardless. I would. I get some things given to me like a bushel of apples or sweet potatos, a jar of honey and even some homemade apple butter. It gets used and enjoyed and I always think about the person that gave it to me when I'm eating it or useing it.

Do what your heart tells you to do.
Just my thoughts on this matter for what its worth.

I recently left a tip of $0.32 on a bill of $75 at a Japanese restaurant. That tip was designed to send a message.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Tips are performace pay and short term incentive. It just can't be more clear than that.

In your opinion of course, not in fact.

470Eddy

Good post.

ErikD

So the recommendation you received was $230 for the lot, which sounds pretty fair and a nice gift. About what I have been giving as a gift in recent safaris.

John-The-Marxist comments about a supposed "low-tipper" subsidizing a "tipper" is very subjective. By his reasoning only his own judgement is correct and no one elses. Otherwise using his own "logic" he is ripping off a ridiculously high-tipper as well by tipping less than the rich guy. Where does it all stop?

But really the "subsidisation" argument is just the old "economic victim" argument of a typical marxist theorist/academic.

No one is forcing anyone to work in these industries. They work there often because of personal interest (eg PHs) or because it is MORE lucrative than what they can earn elsewhere or for less effort (eg working in the mines).

quote:

Dr.C:
... she quickly told me tipping is not allowed. Anyone caught accepting a tip would be immediately fired.
Wouldn't that be interesting to see on a guided hunt.

What a wonderful idea where the staff are paid properly for their work and do not have to rely or demand handouts or bribes to earn a living. Some international hotel chains have this exact policy too.


***

I too deal with difficult customers all the time, and have never asked them to pay me on top of the agreed price just because they are "difficult". Sure way to loose a customer for good.

To me a statement like indicates the personality and character of the outfitter.

Nitrox,

You live in a country where tipping isn't a custom. I'm sure that you are correct for your country. You are simply wrong when it comes to countries where it is a custom. I also think you are wrong where it has become a custom through the practice of the majority of customers.

We have many private clubs around where I live, and I'm a member of two of them, my dad several more. Tipping is prohibitted. The reason is so that there is no favoritism shown any member by the staff. The collary of that rule is that tipping generates favoritism. That is plain obvious.

JPK

I live and hunt in South Africa, and have the fortunate privelage of hunting on various farms/ranches where the owner trusts me enough to hunt on my own without the guidance of a PH. Having said this, I feel that should I ever be in a situation whereby i require the assistance of a PH, it will always be at my discretion as to whether he gets tipped or not.

This again leads to the amount, as I am earning our local currency, and would tip in the same currency. So, i'm on a ranch here hunting Cape Kudu which is going to cost me R2200.00 fo a trophy sized bull, and my day fees are going to be R150.00 per day, which covers the cost of transport, trackers, skinners etc.

My entire 2 day hunt costs me R2500.00 of which as far as etiquette goes i could tip about 10% of the cost of my hunt. So I give the PH R250.00. Is he going to be happy with this? Probably not as calculating it into US$ he is only going to be getting around $35.00. This is what I can afford and am not going to bust the bank trying to look like i'm full of cash.

So in my opinion, it's entirely up to the hunter, and what he is prepared to give as a gift of appreciation. He is by no means obligated to do so in any way.

PS...If i am ever fortunate enough to do my PH. I'd just be happy being out there in the bush instead of sitting behind a desk.

quote:

Originally posted by SA_Hunter:
I live and hunt in South Africa, and have the fortunate privelage of hunting on various farms/ranches where the owner trusts me enough to hunt on my own without the guidance of a PH. Having said this, I feel that should I ever be in a situation whereby i require the assistance of a PH, it will always be at my discretion as to whether he gets tipped or not.

This again leads to the amount, as I am earning our local currency, and would tip in the same currency. So, i'm on a ranch here hunting Cape Kudu which is going to cost me R2200.00 fo a trophy sized bull, and my day fees are going to be R150.00 per day, which covers the cost of transport, trackers, skinners etc.

My entire 2 day hunt costs me R2500.00 of which as far as etiquette goes i could tip about 10% of the cost of my hunt. So I give the PH R250.00. Is he going to be happy with this? Probably not as calculating it into US$ he is only going to be getting around $35.00. This is what I can afford and am not going to bust the bank trying to look like i'm full of cash.

So in my opinion, it's entirely up to the hunter, and what he is prepared to give as a gift of appreciation. He is by no means obligated to do so in any way.

PS...If i am ever fortunate enough to do my PH. I'd just be happy being out there in the bush instead of sitting behind a desk.

Damn, I need to start hunting where you hunt.

I originally wasn't going to weigh in on this subject as I have very little experience here, but since everyone else has what the hell. Someone mentioned that there is very little skill required to be a PH. I beg to differ. The hunts themselves might no t ake much as they simply know from past years that they'll be her, but that's only half the battle. Next you gotta estimate the trophy quality of the game in question. Take kudu for exmaple very tough to estimate the length since the horns are sprialed etc. Next is the animals in question old enough to be taken? They may all have to determine all of this from a couple hundred yards away. So yes I tiiped the PH did I under tip, maybe, but eveyone from the skinner to the Ph himself seemd very grateful for the tip.

Side ntoe on this subject Prior to leaving we asked what would be a reasonable tip. They told us and said that whatever we gave no one would compllain. I didn't give this much thought until we had to tax the taxi driver and he said it wasn't enough he actually hung around demanding more. Just my to cewnts on this.

7mm. guy

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
John-The-Marxist comments about a supposed "low-tipper" subsidizing a "tipper" is very subjective...But really the "subsidisation" argument is just the old "economic victim" argument of a typical marxist theorist/academic.

Actually, its not a "marxist" argument at all but simple labor economics. If some clients don't tip and others do then the daily rates will rise for all in order to compensate the PH for the non-tippers. It's amazing to me that anyone can think PH wages are not impacted in the market by the anticipated tips that they are expected to earn in the future period (or aren't offered in the current or past periods). Look, we can either tip OR pay the higher daily rates...make your choice....but don't be surprised when I am annoyed by the fact that your non-tipping attitude means I will pay higher daily rates AND see it in my interests to still tip in order to reward superior effort or ensure superior service through the course of a safari. The notion of a "gift" is very sentimental but PHs are in the business to make money....and money talks while shit walks.

Best,

John

You continue to make a big assumption without providing any evidence that tips are part of the cost and price structure. Most outfitters provide clearly in writing that tips are optional and to be judged by the client as to value.

There is clearly no specification that not tipping means higher rates are payable.

Lets see some evidence and forget the emotions and unsupported arguments.

***

Your economic victim argument painted yourself as a economic victim. Poor little "John-the-Greek" has to pay more by some fanciful delusion (common to Marxists) as someone else isn't.

You still haven't answered me why your level of tipping is adequate while someone who tips more is more than adequate?

Why my "gifts", monetary or otherwise, are insufficient and cause your rates (boo-hoo) to increase?

Are you so arrogant that only your own opinion and judgement is correct?! My God!


***

I really don't understand all these discussions on waitresses and restaurants in the US. Are they relevant even slightly? No, of course not, except in the guilt mindset and conditioning of the visitor to a foreign country.

I think it'd be great if more outfitters were more like the one I hunted with in Namibia. He asked for no tips to the staff.

Actually he had some good reasoning behind this. He is primarily a farmer, being a PH is secondary. His hunting staff works with him all year long; trackers work as farmhands if there are no hunters there. He says he pays them more than others in his area do, and he wants their income to be stable all the time, not going up and down when hunters are there, and not having to worry about some clients tipping more than others.