Very interesting post for me as a first time safari participant.. However, I do travel a fair amount and have observed that Americans tend to tip very generously compared to other nationalities. It sounds like the safari business expects tips as part of the comp system rather than as a bonus for extra levels of service. One other observation; I performed a survey on a recent high end euorpean cruise and most people surveyed had a preset number in mind for tips. This amount would be adjusted up or down based on service level experienced during the cruise. That's the approach I will take on my upcoming safari. studdog

quote:

...so anything bellow the 10 % would be unfair? Now we are puting a tag on a client fairity regarding it on behalf of a tip - thats not fair.

No sir, I am not implying that anything below 10% is unfair. I am merely giving my opinion of what I believe IS fair - based on previous experience with tips given by satisfied clients. Yes, as a PH I have also had experiences where I was not tipped by clients - sometimes because they didn't know any better and sometimes because they couldn't afford it - fortunately never (as far as I know) because they were dissatisfied with the way their hunts went. I welcomed the clients who did not tip back on their return safaris as I did those who tipped well and have excellent relations with them all.

It is not up to PH's and Outfitters to set "guidelines". But fact is that clients set the trend by introducing tipping as a means of rewarding exceptional service or an exceptional experience. And it is in human nature to get accustomed to (not expect) getting tips from clients if the vast majority of the clients do tip.

Whilst most PH's accept and understand the fact that tips are voluntary, the same cannot be said of most trackers and camp staff. It takes one client to give an exceptionally large tip to the tracker whom he hunted with and got to know over 10 days to have questions raised by the same tracker later on such as: "Why am I only getting "$X" from the one client whilst the other client gave me nothing? I worked equally hard for them both".

Another scenario is the two skinners who were busy skinning trophies till 3am every morning, inhaling the smell of the gut-shot Gemsbok that was "so tough" as the client relates later, "that it needed 5 shots to put it down" to ask why they only got an old worn and dirty T-shirt whilst the tracker - who was riding on the hunting vehicle all day, drinking sodas from the client's ice box and getting the brand-new Gerber knife that costs more than his monthly salary also got a $100 tip.

I disagree with PH's who expect tips from clients or complain about the size of their tips in public. Fortunately for me, it has always seemed to work out that the large tip left by one client makes up for the "small" or "no" tip left by the other. But at the same time I am all for fairness - whichever way you want to interpret that.

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
Gentlemen behave like professionals.

NB - If you are comming to Zimbabwe- Travelers Cheques are not Money! An operator with a special currency account can bank them at a reasonable rate- say 120,000:1. but you can be darn sure he will only pay out at the new tourism rate of 86,000:1.

Cash is 210,000:1 and if I walk into a bank and present a TC, I have to wait 3 weeks for it to clear and will get paid out at 30,000:1

John the Greek,

I hope my PH does love me when I leave. I hope I shoot well, don't demand too much, and become a quick friend of the guy. I may tip more than the usual client cause I guide. I know what a pain in the ass it can be to deal with a guy that can't shoot, doesnt help, and thinks you are subserviant. (For instance, Saturday, me and another guide loaded 11 animals into a trailer for 10 hunters. One was a small buffalo about 900lbs live weight. We had skinned it and field dressed it but it still weighed like 350-400lbs. We grunted the damn thing in a covered trailer bent over to get it in there while all 10 hunters stood around drinking beer watching us.) None of them left a penny for a tip.

So a PH who works hard, is fair and honest is going to get more from me cause I know he's dealt with guys that don't appreciate his efforts. But if the guy is a total jerk, he won't do nearly as well.

One of my observations as a guide and hunter is that those hunters that have to save the longest for a hunt tend to tip better than those that can afford it at any time. And they find a convenient way to justify how cheap they are. Maybe its different other places, but thats what Ive seen.

I think its great we have these lively discussions and differing opinions and Im not trying to offend anyone.




Hugh

I doubt if much tipping was the norm before American hunters arrived in Africa in great numbers. Do you tip your lawyer? Do you tip your doctor? Why not? It is against the law to tip a civil servant but aren't there instances where some of them should get a tip as well? I don't have any profound analysis of the phenomena of tipping but it is obviously a part of the norm in some parts of the world, less so in others. When it is expected, no matter how bad the service rendered, it becomes a problem. It should be freely given, not an unseen price. Otherwise, just up the price and say, "No tips expected, they're included in the price".

Is local currency preferred, dollars, swiss francs, what?

Dollars are the currency for tips.

As I gaing more experience hunting in Africa I feel I have over tipped in the past. I certainly will never tip and owner/operator who acts as my PH as they make plenty off my day rate and mark-up on the trophy fees, not to mention the profit from the sale of meat in RSA. I will never tip anyone who charges me a fee for road transport from the airport or into a concession as that service should be provided as part of the hunt (air charters are a different matter).

PHs should not be tipped unless they deliver extra service or go out of their way to provide something unique during your hunt. Certainly if they save your life, prevent the escape of a wounded aninal, teach you something interesting about the animals, area or people or treat you to some special experience that is not delivered in the ordinary course of business a tip may be warranted. However, tipping for merely doing the job is a bit silly. They choose to take the job for benefits other than the pay and hunters should not have to subsidize a PH's lifestyle choice. The same goes for the staff who are much better off employed by a safari company than their countrymen who scratch a living in a village or as day labor in the cities. Staff in hunting camps are housed, fed and clothed by the companies and get the bonus of much better food and transportation than other members of their society. On my last hunt our camp gaurd and tracker had pounds of biltong at the end of the hunt which they traded for beer, cigarettes, grain, mealie, sugar cane and who knows what else and still had enough to feed their families for months after the hunt. Guess what? Without me there pulling the trigger these chaps would be eating porriage during the off season. I did leave a good tip for them though as they put in extra effort to locate and lead us to some elephants.

If you decide to tip, give what you think is appropriate and don't be concerned with a certain percentage. For some hunters to give $100.00 is a much greater sacrifice than others who give $5,000.00 when the annual incomes are compared. It must be remembered that a couple hundred dollars is certainly more than a day's wages for most contract PHs and you are already paying a fee 5 times that much for a day rate on dangerouls game hunts. Plains game hunts in RSA are not difficult and require no great effort most times s they typically just drive you around, make short stalks and never show you anything outside of the ranches or concessions upon which they hunt. Therefore, tipping 10% of the total day rate is absurd.

It must also be remembered that most PHs are not your friends and probably would not associate with you at all if there wasn't some money involved. Therefore, what do you care what they think about you when the hunt is over. If you don't believe me try this test. Next time you are headed for Africa, plan for a day or two extra and call you last PH and ask if you can stay at his place for a couple of days so he can feed, house and entertain you as you would do for your friends who visited (and what you probably did for the PH who was in your area during the show season). I bet he will have plans and be unable to host you. Whether you tip or not won't keep a PH from hunting you again and if his basic service was tied to a tip you don't want to hunt with him agian anyway.

Perry

You know, the more I look at this thread, the more I am disgusted by it. Maybe tips shouldn't be an obligation but EVERYTHING else is when it comes to hunting. You pay the airfare, you pay the taxi driver to the airport, you pay the outfitter, you pay the shipping agent to get your trophies home. Even on a bare bones plains game hunt we are talking about $10-15K total. Yet, an appropriate tip to the PH may only be $300-$500 depending on the daily rates and duration of the hunt. Yet, this is the issue that makes people all freaked out. Look, the fact that you will or should tip is built into the wage struture of PHs in the same way that it is built into that of waitresses. If no one tipped, the PH or waitresses wages would be higher and you would theoretically end up paying the same amount of money in the long run anyway. I accept that the vast majority of people in this game aren't rich and scrimp and save for their safaris...fine. That doesn't mean you need to be a cheap bastard when it comes to what is probably the lowest cost element of your trip (with the possible exception of a single leopard bait).

JMHO,

John

PHs do not earn a lot. Most of them are in the range of US$20K to $30K per year. And they have to buy a Landcruiser that costs $50K+ to drive their clients around in. Most of them work their tail off for the client, and take personal risks on the client's behalf. Although their basic living expenses like food and rent may not be high, other expenses such as medicine and sending their children to school are quite expensive. Personally I would prefer that we all show a bit of generosity to the PH and keep him in the hunting industry.

What a hot topic, and like I said before I HATE the idea of tipping for any paid service rendered. I still tip tho and did so on my only time to Africa in '03.

The next question is has anyone who has tipped less than what the Ph or his staff thought was a "decent" tip ( and try defining that here)suffer any repercussions on getting their hard hunted and paid for trophies on any hunts ever had the said trophy parts delayed in getting to the promised taxidermists for further processing work, whether it was simply dip and pack prior to shipment or even final taxidermy work done in Africa. I could see that this is an area after one hunts and leaves what the hunter thought was a decent tip, yet the PH or whomever thought it was a cheap tip.

In the end only when all tipping is out of the picture and PH's or safari companies charge decent and realistic rates and not nickel and dime us to death for every service they provide, or at least identify everthing we need to pay for will most hunters be happier about the whole process. Course with humans involved it will never be solved to eveyone sastisfaction.

Even if the whole industry changed and the tips were included in the price so that no tips were given or accepted you would have people saying; "why are tips included, how much is included, thats too much, thats too little, etc. etc. etc."

Bottom line is that in todays hunting world tips are expected. If you need to save up for your safari, save up that little extra to be able to tip fairly. If you are wealthy enough for it not to matter, don't tip so much that the next client of more average means looks cheap.

If a PH gives you shit about not leaving enough tip, and you feel that it was fair then don't worry about it. Maybe his last client gave him a rifle as a tip, or maybe he is just greedy.

The way I tip is I have a number that I think is fair in my head, before the trip even begins, based on the service to be rendered(if you want then talk to a couple friends who understand and see what they think of it). If the PH is horrible, decide how horrible and subtract from the ammount. If you are leaving him nothing, explain it to him. If he went above and beyond then add to the ammount.

The one thing that seems to be missing in this discussion is an understanding that the practice of tipping gives at least some incentive to PH's and all others to keep up their performance, day in and day out for each and every client throughout the season, to maintain vehicles and equipment even as the season's wear and tear makes that more time consuming and difficult, to maintain camp standards...

I'm sure that many PH's and staffs would be just fine without the bonus of a tip or alternatively the penalty of no tip, but tipping gives the client at least some ability to compensate the continued effort, penalize faltering effort and reward extra effort. Take away tipping and raise rates to include what would be a "fair" or "average" tip to maintain the agregate income of PH's and camp staff and the client looses the ability to penalize for faltering effort or reward for extra effort.

In essence you would be removing an element of performance pay and substituting fixed wages instead. Private enterprise thrives on performance pay; gov'ts, school districts, etc muddle by without it.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:

quote:

...so anything bellow the 10 % would be unfair? Now we are puting a tag on a client fairity regarding it on behalf of a tip - thats not fair.

No sir, I am not implying that anything below 10% is unfair. I am merely giving my opinion of what I believe IS fair - based on previous experience with tips given by satisfied clients.

no hard feelings - was just juggleing with words - (from a well known African safari company`s rate list) there is a trophy fee on PH that says:

PH (on a good day) priceless

PH (on a bad day) make offer

I know that this subject has been hashed and rehashed many many times and I quite frankly have not had the time to read all the posts, so I might be restating others' thoughts here. I have been on both ends of the tipping equation. Fact: PHs and outfitters are different. The outfitter's income comes from the entire safari business, whereas the PH is a salaried employee. Fact: All the PHs in Africa or North America with whom I am familiar have one thing in common, their labour is a labour of love and their remuneration from the outfitter is barely enough to survive. Fact: The quality of your hunting experience is almost entirely due to your PH. At the end of the hunt you have to ask the question whether the PH did all that he could to enrich your experience? If the answer is yes, then certainly give the PH a gratuity that reflects your appreciation.
Many of our posters speak to the fact that they are not rich, just working guys that have had to save for many years to go on this hunt. Remember that your PH is also, just a working guy trying to get by. The tip is just part of the hunt that we save for.
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:
Look, the fact that you will or should tip is built into the wage struture of PHs ...

Is it?

News to me.

quote:

an appropriate tip to the PH may only be $300-$500

US$500 is a LOT of money to me. Guess 'communist' professors teaching marxist crap get paid a lot more than me.

quote:

I doubt if much tipping was the norm before American hunters arrived in Africa in great numbers. Do you tip your lawyer? Do you tip your doctor? Why not? It is against the law to tip a civil servant but aren't there instances where some of them should get a tip as well? I don't have any profound analysis of the phenomena of tipping but it is obviously a part of the norm in some parts of the world, less so in others. When it is expected, no matter how bad the service rendered, it becomes a problem. It should be freely given, not an unseen price. Otherwise, just up the price and say, "No tips expected, they're included in the price".

Funny you should write that Wink.

I just discussed the same thing with someone else, and as I said "Tipping has not been common here (in Norway) until lately."

But is now becoming more common in some circles due to US influance...

And as I continued to say: "Do you tip a doctor? Or an Airline pilot when flying a 747? Or a police officer? Or a fireman? Or a soldier?"

After all, these guys save lives everyday, and work just as hard as a PH. And some of them don't necessarily make any more money either!

I have no problem with giving a PH a reasonable tip, but it seems to me from what I read here on AR that a lot of guys go overboard. Which in turn can create an evil circle of PHs/trackers/etc expecting (and even demanding) more than what is reasonable from the next client that comes along...

I have pondered about this question myself(the whole tipping thing) here in New Zealand it is not done at all!With my first safari in 07 this issue has had me abit worried when, were, who, how much. My view on it is this. If they want more money to pay their staff, well bloodly well charge more! If you personally want more money, do a above average job and therefore you should in all fairness be able to charge more WHY Like the rest of us the better you are, the more money you make(wish they taught me that in school LOL)
I just belive that the whole tipping thing has been introduced to Africa by rich prick Americans who liked flashing their money around,The outfitters should be like any other employer and pay their staff an "adequate" wage. The animals get a bigger price put on their lives than human beings !!! Maybe just maybe we would all see things improve.
Out of everything about going to Africa this is the one thing Im dreading!It is not part of my culture, I would feel imbaresment at both ends,again when, were, Who, If I dont tip will my PH only take me to average trophys? Am I not paying a trophy Fee? Oh yeh, am I not paying a daily guiding fee? What the hell am I PAYING for then If they 10% more after you've shot it.
If you go in to a fish shop and a fish is $10 per kg Thats what it costs not 10% more just CAUSE it the done thing.

"A fair days pay for a fair days work" Its good enough for me to live by that, so that will do me just fine.

Nitro,

The fact that MOST people tip their PH in Africa or waitress in America, regardless of what is "virtually unknown" in their own culture, means that this is a market force determining what "formal" wages are actually going to be paid by the outfitter or restaurant owner. If no one tipped, PHs and waitresses would take this into account when negotiating wages with their employers and demand higher pay at the outset. This cost would then, of course, be passed on by the owner to clients or customers. EITHER WAY, you are going to (or really should) pay something extra. The beauty of tipping, as mentioned above, is that you have control over how much and what level of service warrants the extra cash. You have the flexibility to use this as an incentive or reward.

As for $300-$500 being a lot of money. Yes it is (especially here in Egypt) but it a VERY small amount when compared to the all inclusive total cost of say $15,000 for even a medium quality plains game hunt. I'm sorry, I likely make far less money than most on this site but I just can't justify probably spending more money on restaurant bills (drinking fine Australian wine of course) over the few days before and after a safari than I would tip my PH.

JMHO,

John

Runas, others,

As I said earlier, as JTG inferred above, tipping is an element of performance pay. And the best thing from the client's perspective is that it is an element of pay for HIS safari, not the agregate safaris for a year or longer. The otherwise excellent PH stumbles on your safari - it cost him a significant penalty NOW! PH performs as expected - he is properly compensated for his performance NOW! PH goes above and beyond - he is rewarded NOW!

Take away the tipping and add 10% or whatever to the cost and ONLY the client looses, and he looses his ability to incentivise his "workforce" by penalizing slip shod performance, compensating expected performance and rewarding exceptional performance on HIS safari.

Under a no tipping scheme the client ends up paying the same cost for a lazy PH or one that goes above and beyond. That would be an abomination. Anyway, short term incentives are always the most effective for the short term and a clients safari is short term.

This applies across the board too and not only wrt PH's but trackers and camp staff as well.

Runas,

The difference between a rich prick American, a rich prick Kiwi, a rich prick Brit, a rich prick Mexican, a rich prick Argentine, a rich prick German...NONE THAT I HAVE SEEN!

On the other hand, few rich Americans are pricks; can't say that about other nationalities.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by ErikD:
Do you tip your lawyer? Do you tip your doctor? Why not?

The average PH in RSA earns between $70 and $100 per day. The average PH hunts 110 days per year. Those PH's who are lucky hunts 180 days per year. In addition to this his Outfitter mights send him on a "free" vacation which includes travel and boarding (no pocket money) to the States once a year to do marketing for the OUTFITTER.

I know of few doctors, lawyers and other professionals who earn $18,000 per year. There is NO comparison.

No formal education nor particularly demanding mental exercises are required to be a PH beyond fundamental reading, writing and arithmatic skills. It is an unskilled labor that requires limited physical effort considering blacks do most of the heavy work. Most of the job revolves around outdoor activities participating in what most of us consider recreation and is a occupation populated primarily by young, single, white males with very little in the way of financial requirements, responsibilites or dependants.

It must also be remembered contract PHs are fed, housed and have fuel provided when working or outfitters or safari firms.

Low pay ain't enough to warrant tips in my books. Deliver something special or look for a better paying line of work. If it was such a crappy way to make a living why are there so damn many dudes looking for PH positions in RSA and Zim?

JTG

If spending money helps Americans feel good about themselves, please go ahead. No an issue for me.

You know you do not have to keep associating waitresses and PHs all the time. But to tell you the truth I don't remember tipping waitresses in South Africa either, and they were pretty and still had big smiles, before, during and when we left the restaurant.

Waitresses in USA? Who cares!

Nitrox,

If you don't understand performance pay you will never understand tipping. Vice versa.

PWN,

Unskilled labor is who will be scraping up our remains with a shovel if PH's were unskilled. Like any trade or craft or proffession, there is a learning curve. In the case of PH's it will vary with the circumstances and the terrain and game. In any event a minimum of years to become proficient at the various tasks which make up a PH's duties. Let alone the time to become proficient with elephants, buff, lions , leopard.

The old but true saying 90% of fish are caught by 10% of anglers applies at least in some way to PH's as well.

When it comes to the number of prospective PH's, many in Zim are left little choice when their family farms are stolen. With Zim's economy in ruins and hunting being one of few opportunities to make hard currency its little wonder. And its coming in SA too.

JPK

I have only briefly skimmed these threads but there seems to be a lot of erronious ideas about what is required to be a successful guide. I have been at it for thirty years in Alaska and know many of the best in the industry, both here in Alaska and in many African countries. While the hunting and outdoor knowledge is obviously important the best guides and operators must also be logistical and psycological masters. It may look easy but so does every event in the Olympics when done by the best.
My point is that it is a difficult and demanding profession, especially if you had to physically work your ass off on a two week hunt for some of the folks on this thread.
From my standpoint the best tips I have received came from hard working individuals who could barely afford the hunt but who obviously had the time of their lives and I know streached their budget just to show me how much they appreciated my effort.

If I truly loved what I do for a living I would have no problem with whatever the wages are and would not EXPECT tips to perform my job. As it is, I don't TRULY love what I do and I don't get offered any tips either.

There are big differences regarding tiping and they are mainly geographycal issue - to get understanding between us all (to avoid unnecessary blaiming) check this site on Tipping by Geography:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A640018

- right or wrong - one should adapt to local customs - having in mind that Africa has summarized US pattern on tipping and that is a plain fact, that many depend upon - tho a tip should stay accepted, not expected!

I have to laugh at the idea that being a PH or guide is always a piece of cake. Honestly, the process of becoming a PH in Zim is the only thing I have ever seen that makes my graduate school experience look easy. Now, being a two week wonder in RSA is a different story of course.

As for becoming a NA guide...I have had some who were clearly low skilled, drop you off at the bear stand, sort of guys but I have also had some who were unbelievably skilled and hard working. My Yukon guide had a photo of one of his wranglers at the end of the year for example. He was wearing the pants that fit him at the beginning of sheep season and they were now about six or seven inches too big around his waist. I don't care WHAT country you are from, you tip a guy working that hard for you or consider yourself a CHEAP-ASS!

JMHO,

John

I look at what my PH has done to make my hunt enjoyable and successful then come up with an amount that I feel is "money well spent". If I'm happy with it so will the PH since he will know by then that I am not rich and every dollar I give him lengthens the time until I can make the next hunt.

465H&H

Having just jumped into this thing on the side of the guide I will also mention that in Mongolia it is not uncommon for the "guide" meeting yu to demand his "tip" at the beginning of the hunt. It seems our American custom of tipping is seen in some countries as a user fee. In Tajikistan our guides got togeather after all three of us had taken Marco Polo sheep on day one and demanded a 15% tip !! Our booking agent had told us not to tip over $200 (as that was a typical year's wage) and here they wanted $3500 each for one day of driving us out to find a sheep and then overestimating their size.
Tipping is a personel thing and should reflect your happiness with the effort and attitude of the guide and any other camp help. Size of the trophy realy shouldn't matter - but it does to many.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Nitrox,

If you don't understand performance pay you will never understand tipping. Vice versa.

I do of course understand "performance pay" but do not confuse the difference between a "gift" and "remuneration" like some do.

I also understand about paying insufficient wages and enforcing an attitude of servitude (which JTG seems to be in favour of) which to me is the opposite of a professional on both accounts.

But again, hey if Americans have to do it, go ahead. If it makes you feel better, give twice as much.

quote:

In Tajikistan our guides got togeather after all three of us had taken Marco Polo sheep on day one and demanded a 15% tip !! Our booking agent had told us not to tip over $200 (as that was a typical year's wage) and here they wanted $3500 each for one day of driving us out to find a sheep and then overestimating their size.

These guides were well trained in advance by "tipping" American clients.

"$3500" - Sounds like they read T. Carrs "tipping guide".

quote:

I don't care WHAT country you are from, you tip a guy working that hard for you or consider yourself a CHEAP-ASS!

Better to thought of as that, as compared to a fool. You should travel more and with your eyes and ears open for a change.

But again as an over-paid, under-worked professor, I DO think it is encumbent on you to share around your un-earded gravy with less fortunates. Tip as much as you want.

Myself I have never left a safari where the staff were unhappy with the 'gifts' I gave.

Most of this "tipping" business is the rather pathetic worry about looking bad in your peers eyes, or the safari hosts, where the value of a man in a particular culture is estimated by how many bucks he has in his pocket, which is why the topic comes up time and again. Is this also just a bit like trying to "buy friends" too?

Don't be a "sheeple" and try and have a bit of self-confidence and do your own thing in life.

FLIGHT TO AFRICA $1700
DAILY RATES $4000
TROPHY FEES $7500
TAXIDERMY $4000
SHIPPING $2000
MISC. EXPENSES $1000

proper tip $400

Failure to show even the slightest bit of financial appreciation for the guy who exhibited the most DIRECT effort making your safari a success......

...ABSOLUTELY priceless.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
Myself I have never left a safari where the staff were unhappy with the 'gifts' I gave.

Really? What did you get them...bic lighters or new shoe-laces?

For the black staff, a cash "gift" of probably about a months equivalent wages.

One PH, a friend, took me out for nothing. I gave him a "gift" of about twice his normal wages plus my sling which he liked. Next time I go over I plan to take him a "late" wedding gift of a swag or two.

Another PH/outfitter I took over some medium expensive perfume (he suggested which brand) for his girlfriend. Girls like "gifts" like that and when they are happy so is the PH.

But hey, if you want to carry on like a big shot and it makes you feel good, keep at it. Money doesn't buy friends.

New shoe laces or bic lighters, great idea! Actually last safari I handed out Cuban cigars to the trackers when we shot my first animal for the hunt. But a shoe lace sounds much more useful, and easy to carry. If you twist a bunch of them together they can make rope. Or the PH can put it around his neck with some lions claws and really look GAY! (I have seen photos of a PH with these on AR too ).

I think a box of matches might be better than a bic lighter though,

One last thing - "proper" tip. Who decides what is a 'proper' gift. Most outfitters worht using anyway, deiberately use the recommendation "whatever the client feels is appropriate". Wich IS appropriate.

Personally I refuse to use the "Americanism" "tip" and will now use the proper word "Gift". John Mate, you need to think more about other things, and less about money all the time.

Cash is so crass!

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
John Mate, you need to think more about other things, and less about money all the time.

I am an economist! We, by definition, know the price of everything and the value of nothing.


Best,

John

quote:

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:
FLIGHT TO AFRICA $1700
DAILY RATES $4000
TROPHY FEES $7500
TAXIDERMY $4000
SHIPPING $2000
MISC. EXPENSES $1000

proper tip $400

Failure to show even the slightest bit of financial appreciation for the guy who exhibited the most DIRECT effort making your safari a success......

...ABSOLUTELY priceless.

John,
Does your students tip you? According to your idea/rule they should! You work your ass off for their education, an important/critical part of their professional life. How much of the tuition fee would be alright as tip? Would you do a less great job if a student didn't tip you?

I'd never expected any tip from clients/customer in my previous jobs, perhaps I should? Regardless if a client tips or not, you shall still deliver sterling service/job, that is why you are paid by your employer. If you don't like the job, wage or conditions, try to change it.. Or find a better job…

Why shall the guest/customer hand out additional money for something that is already paid for, it's irrational economic behavior. To compare tip with performance pay is wrong! The whole idea of tip is that you give what you think is suitable, or don't tip. Or, perhaps the employer should offer performance pay, shall the PH get wage depending on how many successful clients they had, how large trophies that been produced?

I tip when I feel like it and give what I find is suitable, or can spare; it's the gesture that counts. If they think it's to little, screw them.

Cheers,
/JOHAN

TIPS = To Insure Proper Service.

Ain't no gift, its performance pay.

A gift might be something that you left the PH or staff on top of TIPS! Like a rifle sling! TIPS are pay in our scheme of things, or at least in mine. An extra genreous tip also includes an element of gift. No tip is purely docking pay. When a PH or whoever says, "Whatever you think is fair.", or similar, they are telling you that you alone are the judge of the quality of service they and the staff provided.

I love your statement that you left camp and everyone was happy vs a tipper leaving camp thought of as a fool. How the heck do either of know how the staff feels. When I leave they may be laughing at me, the fool, for parting ways with hard earned cash when they believe they only gave the service they were being paid for by the PH/outfitter! When you leave they may all be bitching about the tight ass prick who was so unapreciative of the service as to stiff them part of their pay!

Either way, who do you think will more welcome and be treated better when they return? Two fellows, an American who has tipped or is likely to and an Aussie that hasn't or isn't so likely to, inquire about a hunt, say the last buff or elephant quota available, whos going to get it? The same fellows show up in camp because there were two buff available, there is the experienced PH and the new PH...The better chalet and the not quite so nice one...

You can argue all you want about the propriety of tipping. So can I. Neither one of us will win that arguement in the end because Americans and Aussies just do it differently. Our wage scales here reflect tipping in some areas of our economy, while yours clearly don't. Apparently the wage scales of PH's and camp staff also reflect tipping as a regular practice, since the bulk of clients are American. Either way its irrelevant; since the greater bulk of clients tip, your practice is the minority and puts you at a competative disadvantage when all is said and done. For the sake of relatively few $'s I just don't think its worth it to be the least preffered repeat client.

This statement refers to hunting with a guide or PH, fishing with a guide or Captain and/or mate, eating at a restaunt, even having the plumber do repairs...


JPK

We are not talking about America, we are discussing Africa. "in our scheme of things", sure the US scale of things.

If the "tip" was required as part of wages, it would be incorporated. Have no doubt about that. These guys are not in it for charity. It would also be upfront. So you can go on all you want about it being part of wages, but that is your personal opinion. They aren't rude waitresses in some US highway cafe who mouth off. The are supposed to be professionals and all the ones I have used were!

A lot of other countries don't tip much or at all either, did you know?

Its nice to get for them of course. Everyone likes some cash.

What affronts me is guys saying unless you give "gifts" to MY standard, you are a tight arse. Total bull shit.

Again the story about if you don't tip you get lesser results:
"Two fellows, an American who has tipped or is likely to and an Aussie that hasn't or isn't so likely to, inquire about a hunt, say the last buff or elephant quota available, whos going to get it?"

I think the guy hunting at the end of the season would get the offer. I can tell you I wouldn't be hunting again with such an outfit anyway who made decisions on this basis. So it is quite a moot point. They probably would be the same sort who takes the common guy to a shit area, so the millionaire hunting next gets the best area. We've heard that story on AR before as actual examples and I think they lost a lot of business too because of it.

Hiint, hint, some outfitters actually privately say they prefer hunters who are fit and able, and actually give discounts on that basis. Some countries get rates cheaper than others too from some outfitters. Fancy that! And they get the same guys back year after year and they still get good hunts.

JPK - the word 'fool' was applied to someone calling me a tight arse.

If you want to give 10% of the daily rates, or even the total cost, do it. Give them a couple months wages for a weeks hunt if you want. Maybe the Italian double rifle manufacturer owner who leaves his double rifle with the outfitter/PH each year (yes one does), gets a better hunt than a guy leaving a "tight arse" 10% "tip" too. Guess that wonderful system works the other way round too.

What does affront me is people here judging others on what they personally consider reasonable. Claiming because someone gives a gift of only one or two weeks wages (!) is tight compared to their standard of a month's. People should do whatever they personally want. Why is it your concern what someone else gives? Does it affect you? Give whatever you want and be happy about it.

PS The only "PH" I have met who bad mouthed clients about tipping was a young "PH" who was laid off from his previous outfitter and couldn't get re-hired by anyone else. He was working as a river guide instead.