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Recently two elephants a 90lb and 106lb were taken in Botswana and has created a furor internationally. The Elephants were taken in remote concessions bordering photographic areas. The Africa Geographic CEO AG CEO Simon Espley writes - 'The surgical removal of Africa’s remaining large-tusked elephants by trophy hunters will not solve any human-elephant conflict or habitat issues. The volume of elephants hunted is not sufficient to reduce elephant populations. Instead, the likely result of the selection of large-tusked elephants as trophies will be to hasten the disappearance of tuskers from the African landscape.' My initial reaction was to defend legal hunting and be done with it but on consideration, it would be a sad day if big tuskers were removed forever? Would it be feasible that such elephants to be identified and left alone? That hunting quotas be more accepted or increased in communal areas to keep the sport alive? I suppose what I am saying is there room for compromise? When I was young my father worked in Tsavo and these beasts were commonplace and my many years in the field I have seen less and less of these big tuskers. Do we as hunters want to conserve them or take them as opportunist trophies but bearing in mind the backlash that occurs? ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | ||
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Ahmed lived his entire life during active hunting in Kenya and died before hunting ended. He was of course protected by Kenyatta (irony of later issues not ignored). I don’t think any of the old hunters minded letting him walk. The 106lb was. 50-55 year old apparently - that’s a good, long life. I asked Mike to send me the pics of the teeth because I’m curious about stuff like that. As to whether we should leave them alone… perhaps. We could also simply hunt quietly without the desire to slather these things in arenas where they do not belong. But the world will indeed be a sadder place without those monsters. I don’t think any hunter worth his salt would revel in killing the last one. | |||
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I’ve seen the debate and it makes sense to let them live. Put me in front of them with the proper permit, I don’t know if I would be able to restrain myself. Some have been silly enough to say the hunting ban allowed these to grow that big, however I don’t think that’s possible in such a relatively short mount of time. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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If I’m not mistaken, Mike was the one posting pictures all over social media. Again, it seems we do the most harm to ourselves. | |||
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I have a question, once an elephant is old enough to have tusk the way over 100 lb are they still breeders? And if they're not breeders are they keeping younger elephants from mating? | |||
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My understanding is bulls will breed until well after 50. Meaning this guy was in the thick of it. Bulls older than 35 or so are the primary breeders - 20 year old bulls aren’t getting much action. Bulls go on their own by 15 but it still takes a decade or more for them to really compete for cows. If we use 100 lbs as a marker, these boys are probably both beginning to decline but also still fully capable of breeding. Some of the big bulls over in Tsavo are bigger than this guy but barely 50+. They still have a good many breeding years left. | |||
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Leave them alone. | |||
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Thank you for clarifying that! | |||
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Dr. Kevin Robertson has a good deal of data and knowledge on this subject…gathered from Kruger. I have looked at his power-point on the subject and it is very interesting. Maybe he will chime in and share some thoughts. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Interesting. They have updated the age estimate of the Bull to 45-50. I had typed but deleted a message he here rhat based on the molars in the lower jaw, and comparing them to the work done at the university of Pretoria (with samples provided by Buzz’s company), he looked much closer to. 45 than 50-55. | |||
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You are assuming that the other side is reasonable and honorable. They have no interest in compromise and want to see all hunting halted everywhere. I don't think it matters which elephant (lion, ect.) you shoot, they are still going to raise hell. | |||
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Why should we not hunt the biggest elephant possible with legal permit. There are to many elephants in zimb& Botswana. Does not matter how big or small. Legal? Down. I never had a doubt when I shot my 91 pounder. Had been shot 10 years prior on his left tusk and nerve dissapeared. 67 ponds when shoot. He also had a low brain shot with a 458. We recovered the bullet. He was a magnificent specimen on his last set of molars. The skull doubles the size of some of my other elephants and I regret nothing. Would do it again. If we start putting boundaries they will die, starving,alone, in agony in the middle of the bush. Just to make happy some people that don’t care a shit about elephant. They just want us not to hunt them. Would they be happier if we shot only medium elephants? Or small ones, or tuskless… where do we draw the line Just my two cents diego | |||
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I saw that. Also in the same write-up I read "had completed/ worn thru his M6 molars." Wouldn't this indicate the elephant was nearing the end? ___________________________________________________________________________________ Give me the simple life; an AK-47, a good guard dog and a nymphomaniac who owns a liquor store. | |||
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He mentioned other things as well regarding the general condition that seemed to indicate he was in clear decline. The bull had been wounded I think twice as well. The teeth in the post show about 10 laminae on M6, which, according to the study, puts him right at 45. They still look rugged to me. That last molar will continue to move forward and leave a gap behind it, when they hit about 60 they typically have a small pod of tooth left. Still, they are making a living. How long would have this guy lasted? No idea - but I think they were surprised he was as young as he was. I haven't see pics of him alive, nor his tail, but would like to. The combo of the ivory size and other factors may have made him look 50-55 like they initially thought. Understand, I;m not a biologist, I study this stuff because I can't hunt them. As I told Mike, looking at those tusks reminds me of the old pics of the ivory room in Mombasa. | |||
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I hear you Diego. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I'm not going to hunt elephant again so I don't have a dog in this conversation. My personal opinion is that we aren't going to have the big ivory on the old, big bulls, if we keep shooting the smaller, younger bulls. Why not take the older bulls that you consider "past breeding age" and let the younger bulls grow to "past the breeding age"? Feel free to light me up now. Guns and hunting | |||
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I sent Buzz a copy of a book I bought in Kruger about their big tuskers. They tried to establish a cause of death for every one of the named tuskers and there was quiet a lot of them. I can’t remeber exactly the percentage, but what came to light in the book was that a lot of these big tuskers were killed in fights with other bulls. (30% or so) Those big tusks are probably poor defensive weapons. DAPU statistics in Dande didn’t parallel the Kruger stats, the dynamics in many areas simply don’t allow the ellies to grow old enough to become tuskers. So losing a tusker to be killed by another ellies is obviously a senseless loss. What hunters probably should do and should be sharing when required is that we are shooting old elephants, irrespective of ivory size or specifically targeted management ellies. In Southern Africa as a whole the elephant population is a young population, in Kruger there is now approximately 24000 ellies in 1994 there was 7000. The figures speak for themselves. There is actually very few really old ellies to shoot. | |||
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Therein lies the rub - if bulls can breed well into their 50s, it means the number of true post-breeding bulls is very, very small, either due to being killed by competitors or simple old age. The question remains - when do bulls truly (naturally) stop breeding? Cow fertility seems to drop off (but not end) at 45 or so, but I would a think a bull would breed as long as he is able. That might be more determined by his ability to fend of askaris than anything else. Dunno. It’s an interesting question. | |||
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Elephants add significantly to their ivory the last few years of their life. If we want bulls with truly large ivory, we need to stop shooting the 35-45 year old's.(Elephants that eat a primary diet of woody growth may die 5-10 years earlier than elephants that primarily graze due to tooth wear.) An elephant that grows to 100# will have had many years to pass on his DNA when he is 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 lbs than when he gets to 90-100+ lbs. Shooting a 100+ pounder will not appreciably effect the genetics since he had the same DNA when he was #40er. He has already passed it on. Not sure what the going rate is for the major outfitters, maybe 55-90k that is going back into conservation in Botswana. Photo's/Reports of a 100#er down. How many more hunts does this sell. 10?, 20?, 50?, over the next few years. It is easy to see at least another million or more going back into conservation in Botswana just due to this one bull. Due to breeding, this elephant has probably done much for his species. In death, perhaps he will do more. | |||
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Ailsa, Based on what you just said, it seems to make sense to put a minimum size on elephants, not a maximum like they do in the park border areas in South Africa. The minimum could be set by genetics and what is possible for the area. You'd have to take into account the difference in diameter at the lip between Botswana and Tanzania for example. Perhaps an alternative weight/length limit in East Africa like Tanzania had before it closed. Just my two cents. | |||
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With the encouragement of Dr. Robertson, the hunting community has changed the standards for buffalo in the past 15 years. Most of us would prefer a smaller, old bull with most of his corrugations and tips worn off to a larger bull with tips and a mohawk. With the encouragement of Dr. Easter and others, we as the hunting community have raised our standards on lion to taking older nonbreeding males. Yes, this was forced on us. When was the last time we saw a photo of a three year old lion. We as a community have adapted and now have better trophies. Why should elephants be any different. Would the 90 and 100 pounders shot in Botswana ever have made it to that size if Botswana hadn't put a moratorium on hunting in 2014. These elephants probably would have been taken as 65-85 pounders and never reached this size. The extra eight years made this possible IMHO. If Ph's can age a lion they can age an elephant. By the time an elephant is around 30, ph's should be able to determine what elephants will be management bulls and what elephants have the gene's to be truly exceptional animals. Yes it will be difficult to turn down the 80 pounder due to age but if we don't let him reach old age, we will never have a 100 pounder. Perhaps a slot limit of some sort blended with aging would work. If we want to improve the size of ivory it is up to us as hunters to figure this out. | |||
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Ailsa, I'd have a hard time turning down an 80 pound bull. But it doesn't make much sense shooting 40 pound young bulls in an area that will produce 80-100 pound bulls. | |||
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I personally wouldn't have a problem with not shooting big tuskers, but neither do I have a problem with them being shot. Big tuskers invariable only have a short lifespan left, as it takes time to grow big tusks. They disappear mostly from the landscape, because they become an iteresting target at younger age. Buzz posted about this in this forum some years ago, referring to the same study as BaxterB refers to. If a 'normal' bull grows tusks which become interesting to trophy hunters around 45-50 years of age, he has already bred some years, and spread his genes. A potential 100-pounder, might reach that tusk size at 30. An age he has barely bred, so his genes run a higher risk of getting removed before they're spread. But then again, if trophy hunters won't shoot them, they're still targets for poachers. Here's a quote from Buzz from that topic.
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Thanks for that original link, that’s from a ways back. I think a takeaway here is that certain bulls seem to grow big ivory earlier, giving the impression that they are older than they truly are, making them hunt-worthy from a trophy standpoint while they are still relatively young. Tony Dyer, in his Big 5 book, states bulls tusks reach max length at about 20+ but only gain diameter after that. Of course as the Bull ages his nerve will shrink a bit and the ivory densifies adding weight to the tusk. As mentioned those last years of big bulls are beneficial to those great big tusks. I think that makes aging these bigger tusked bulls more difficult - like trying to age a fast growing tree versus a slow growing one without knowing the species. | |||
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A PH that I hunted with many years ago, told me of running into one of the giant Kruger tuskers that had left the park. He said that they could have legally gunned the critter but he told his client that the jumbo was off limits. He fired a shot into the air and spooked it back into the park. He thought it carried 130 pound ivory. If so, I might have seen the tusks many years later in the display in the park where they have so many sets of the huge old guys. I doubt (but never say never) if I shall ever shoot another elephant. For me personally, I would prefer not to kill such a grand old critter. Another time .. another place. Who knows? | |||
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For me, old is the chief criterion of whether to hunt and kill an animal, including a bull elephant. Old and big is better, but old is essential. I believe the aims of conservation are well served by this approach. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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These animals are rare and special, important to a lot of people and worthy causes, and should be protected and celebrated for the world treasures that they are. | |||
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A few years ago, we were in Kenya, and saw quite a few very big tuskers. They were a sight to behold, and I thought about this very point. That if I was hunting, would I shoot one of these? I am not a trophy hunter, and to me the actual hunt is more memorable than the trophy. But, as someone mentioned above, it is a legal hunt. But, again, there are a lot of legal things one can do, which I would never dream of doing. A while back we had discussions on shooting tagged animals. I would not. Although shooting them is part of the study. | |||
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The bull in question was beyond breeding and wasn't going to pass on his genes beyond what he has already done. He'd already been wounded by poachers, not uncommon for any old bull. And he was likely on his last set of molars. His possible fates were to starve to death once his last set of molars wore out, get killed by poachers, or, the fate he was given. Being killed by a hunter and having his tusks immortalize him. We all wind up dead one way or the other. He got the best choice. And it did nothing negative for elephants in general. | |||
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my thoughts which aren't worth anything: there is already a quota on how many animals can be harvested in a region. what about a quota on bulls by size? in an area that is allowed 5 bulls: 1 bull of any size, 3 bulls of a different caliber, 2 bulls of a management quality different animal, different continent but I have seen antler restrictions on whitetails be a great tool but also allow some goofy older bucks in the population. The majority of the genes are going to be from the better looking older bucks, but some of the older bucks who are big 4's or 5's but aren't legal for most hunters will still pass on their genes. By allowing a few management elephants you can target those ones or just some other "average" bulls in the area, still sell a few trophies and still allow for an older overall age class. as the regional dynamics change maybe there will either be more overall permits granted or more of the higher quality permits granted | |||
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Elk and mule deer here in the west are all managed by antler size, eye guards, min points per side, etc. to guys who buy tags and hunt public land this is just the way things are done. | |||
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Elephants live 60/65 years. They can breed for about 25/30 years. There is a huge excess of elephants in zimb Botswana. Just saying diego | |||
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Good day all, Thought I’d hop on here and give 2 cents worth as the PH and manager of NG13. Have a listen to the podcast on Blood Origins / Robbie Kroger most of it is in on this podcast. The facts remain though It was a legal and ethical hunt of an advanced age bull. Small and shrunken body, all the signs of an old bull. The bull was not “ushered” out of a photographic area. It’s not a “known” animal, I still can’t find a picture of it from tourist camps. It wasn’t spotted from the air, as is rumoured. The nearest photo camp is on the Kwando River in NG14 which is 40km in a straight line west from where we got the bull. To the south probably the same distance in NG12 or NG16. This bull 100% alone, there wasn’t much if any sign/tracks of other elephant near the bull, dictating that he was following cows or around them or was he part of a group of bulls. Like any other living creature the bull will die, “protecting” is not going to change that. I do agree that if it was indeed a well known bull near a photographic Camp that did attract a lot of tourist then my decision would have different albeit a difficult one. Where this bull was hunted was in the middle of nowhere in a concession that has NEVER been commercially hunted, until this year. No roads bar the international border in the north that runs E—W with Namibia/Caprivi and the BUFFALO FENCE that runs N-S through eastern quarter of NG13, that’s it. The claim The bull could have have died a number of ways; 1. Slow Starvation 2. Shot by a poacher, 3. Shot/wounded by a villager PAC, an bullet in the head was recovered in its head. 4. Killed by a another bull, he had a festering tusk wound on his right flank. 5. Hunted and benefits arrived that will go towards conservation of the area and the rural community. There are lots of claims on AG that are not true. AG was in a big hurry to get the story out and was not interested in the bigger picture of conservation or CBNRM. This bull was definitely not a prime breeding bull and past that. Surgical removal of tuskers? Since when did hunting occur all over Botswana? There are much more protected area/non-hunting than hunting. Hunting takes place in MARGINAL areas not suitable to photographic. Had they been viable options for non consumptive then they’d have been developed during the moratorium. HWC/HEC Human Wildlife Conflict/ Human Elephant Conflict, lack of alternate sustainable land use options for these marginal areas, community benefication/development/revenue/job creation etc and that HEC/HWC had become political was one of the main motivations for lifting the moratorium on hunting. This hunt ticked all the boxes plus all the meat was delivered to the one village. The community is thrilled in that they’ve NEVER seen or experienced directed benefits from wildlife period! The trust was established in 2003, this the first commercial wildlife enterprise in these three villages EVER! It boils down to what is happening in the world today. TRUTH/FACTS VS EMOTION In hope this clears up most of your questions and promotes construct discussion on this highly flammable topic. Enjoy the listening and the reading. Leon https://podcasts.apple.com/us/...8045?i=1000558006023 https://open.spotify.com/episo...Ehxw5kRZmKfm8a-RrfJg https://podcasts.apple.com/us/...8045?i=1000558232621 https://pachydermjournal.org/i...m/article/view/78/39 To summarize, male elephants in Southern Africa typically reach end of life around 48/49/50 yrs old looking at natural mortality data from a similar system in South Africa. Old elephants typically die from fighting with younger (35-40 yr old bulls) that are in their prime and have shorter, sharper tusks. This elephant had a very large festering wound likely from a fight with a younger bull and had that conflict bullet in it. Very little breeding occurs in these old bulls that are a year or so away from either a conflict death, a death tied to a wound from fighting, or natural starvation. | |||
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That’s excellent information Leon, thanks for chiming in and sharing the links. | |||
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Hi Leon, Good summary and there are few here that will doubt your motives. I think my post was more to do with recognized large tuskers and whether we should be involved in protecting them. As you have stated this bull was not a photographic icon and you have a strong argument for taking him. Unfortunately, the antis only respond to the trophy photographs and bastardized statistics. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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100 percent Andrew | |||
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You’re welcome, glad you enjoyed it!
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Here is the full story and an podcast with detailed informations: https://www.heute.at/s/trophae...-elefanten-100202740 | |||
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The anti hunters don’t really care about anything except stopping hunting. We need to stop shying away and acting ashamed when we are successful. I can guarantee that if I do ever get to shoot an elephant I will plaster it all over social media along with pictures of the throngs of people butchering it and sharing the meat. They can kiss my ass. I have nothing to apologize for or be ashamed of | |||
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To me this is a surprisingly silly thread. One could apply this logic to any species and let the anties run with it. 30”sitatunga, 50”Sable, 50”Buffalo….. Where do you draw the line Doesn’t make any sense ??? We will have to agree not to disagree on this subject | |||
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