Hunters,

What follows is my summary of a hunting trip that I took my family on this summer. A good friend took his family over with the same company the two weeks preceding our hunt. They had a good time and in fact aspects of our trip were enjoyable as well. My son hunted for the first time, my wife stalked a giraffe, and we watched lions together, plus more. But these don’t erase the bad parts. Fundamentally I believe that the problems started by the outfitter trying to accommodate us on late notice. With other hunters in the field there simply wasn’t time for him to properly plan the trip for us and this was then compounded by a lack of communication. This allowed for broad gaps between what our expectations were for them and what there expectations were of us and what they planned on delivering. What followed should have then been expected and in fact the outfitter mentioned having a “bad feeling about this trip†to the preceding hunters when some things didn’t go well on the very first day.


I did not write this to knock-own or hurt a business but rather as a way for hunters and outfitters alike to learn from it to prevent it from happening to them and there customers. So after writing the following summary I sent it to the outfitter with the following message;


“I am preparing a summary of my safari for posting online at Accurate Reloading. As a courtesy I am providing it to you first to review for a few days. If you see any factual errors please let me know. If you would like me to post a rebuttal with this then send it to me. I will post it verbatim at the bottom of my text.â€


As promised the outfitters response is posted below. I have added some notes after some of his points. My comments are proceeded with “>>†symbols. I will probably post this at the Hunt Report as well.



If you have any questions please feel free to contact me.



Sincerely,



John Hunt











My Family Safari



I booked a Safari in Namibia for my family and myself with African Thirstland Safaris. This was originally designed to be a 15 day trip with some hunting but mostly a photo safari since my wife and son had no interest in the hunting. As such we scheduled ourselves for just 4 animals. This was going to be an exciting adventure with us flying from Windhoek to a number of hunting areas, then to visit a couple of tribes (the Ovahimbas and Bushmen) a flight down the skeleton coast and some other fun side trips. We then were to fly to Cape Town at the conclusion of our trip for four days of R&R before our flight home.



While stateside and in early discussions with the outfitter I asked him for help in finding accommodations in Cape Town and he suggested a side trip to Vic Falls. I agreed that Vic Falls would be a great destination for a few days as well. That was the last I heard of it until we arrived in country.



We arrived in Windhoek a couple of days early to have dinner with some friends before they departed and here is where we started to have problems.



Our early arrival meant we would have additional days added to the safari, this I expected and added some four thousand dollars to the total that I wired before our arrival. I expected to shoot a couple of additional animals as well.



On our arrival we spent the first couple of hours trying to figure out where we were staying in Windhoek. The first place the outfitter booked was a rundown house, clearly not up to his standards so it was rejected and we moved on. The second place was acceptable and we stayed for the night. We flew the next day to his hunting lodge up north. It was here that he decided to tell us that I must immediately wire him an additional $17,000USD for a Vic Falls excursion that he had booked for us! Now I know some reading this won’t have an issue with that but for me this is a huge amount for a three night trip. Especially since the rest of the safari, including trophy fees, was originally priced at $27,000USD. (It later turned out that the $17000 included our $2400 for our Cape Town hotels and car).



In any event I rejected this excursion outright as lunacy. And as expected this immediately changed the tenor of the entire trip. I had the distinct sense that we were downgraded from that point forward.



We stayed at the outfitters lodge for two nights before we flew to a third party lodge that he booked for us. He left us with two PH’s, a skinner and his older truck. One of the PH’s borrowed an even older truck from the lodge so the non-hunters could game drive while we hunted (it had large rusted holes in the bed and a plank bench). We would then drive the ranch and right up to animals that my PH then wanted me to shoot… from the truck. I refused as this isn’t the type of hunting that I signed up for, and frankly it was also against the rules of the lodge. Damn if I couldn’t get my PH off the truck to hike, all he wanted to do was drive around and blast things. It was disappointing so I stopped hunting and gave whatever budget left to my kids.



At this point I was having sporadic conversations with my outfitter by phone. He announced that he was getting advice from an attorney at this point. Eventually in one call, and to try and settle the issue once and for all, I agreed to cover ½ of his direct costs of the aborted Vic Falls trip. So I had an additional $6000 wired from home ($5000 was additional aircraft costs that was not going to be accrued). We agreed to end the safari early (back to the original 15 days) and then continue on the remainder for the sightseeing aspect (flying down the coast and out to the Kalahari). But I would now have to pay for a pilot and any flight time over what was now the “estimate†that had been provided earlier since he would no longer consider our pricing a “packageâ€. This alone added a few thousand to the trip.



Of course I insulated my family from this as much as possible. And in my error started throwing money at the problem to salvage the trip. In the end I was severely disappointed in the organization and the communication around this trip by the outfitter.



I am submitting this abridged summary in the hopes that my tough lesson will help prevent someone else from having one. Leave nothing at all to chance on your trip. Schedule and know your itinerary. Demand all cost information before you send your payment. Don’t let any ambiguity exist between you and your outfitter and your expectations. It is bad for you and bad for your outfitter. In my case it turned what should have been a great family African adventure into something else.



<fin>











Dear John



Your email perhaps doesn’t come as much of a surprise to me after all. Although I honestly believe we sorted the whole issue out between each other before your departure, I still had this distinct feeling that although we shook hands on the entire matter, you would still drive your own agenda as usual – I wasn’t wrong and this time my judge of character prevailed.



It is a real pity that you do not have the decency to face your own challenges directly with me, however prefer to raise your case in public in a dire effort to perhaps gain support for you case, or as it seems try your utmost to discredit me and or my company – AFRICA THIRSTLAND SAFARIS.
>>The hunt is over and I am now posting a Hunt Report for others to review as all hunters are encouraged to do. Just because we shook hands and parted ways does not mean others can’t learn from this experience for what it is worth. <<



Perhaps the old saying of the “customer is always right†should be revisited and changed to – “the customer is always King, but not always right�
I am going to take you up on your invitation that you will publish my comments regarding your hunt, verbatim with yours online in Accurate Reloading. I sincerely believe that you will at worst keep to your word and do this.


>>Yes I will, though after reading your vitriolic response I was hesitant to. I was expecting something a bit less tilted. <<

In the many years that we have been in business it is not always easy to please everybody and sometimes just virtually impossible. Your case being the latter! Fortunately our business has been growing unabatedly year after year, and this John is only capable if you at large deliver a good and honest service time after time. Please feel free to offer the public domain of your choice the opportunity to contact me for a list of satisfied references of clients numbering to several hundreds out of the US of A. Be so kind to also invite other bloggers or clients, whom have dealt with our company and had the same experience as you, to participate in your mudslinging campaign.


>>I don’t view a Hunt Report as mudslinging. These trips do not always go well and so it means not all Hunt Reports will be glowing and complimentary. That is the point to having them. Interested readers can contact the outfitter through his website at http://www.ats.com.na/aboutus.htm . <<

While you are at it perhaps even start with the fellow Americans on the same trip???


>>We didn’t have others on our trip. We learned on the second or third day that you were going to host another group of hunters. We didn’t cross paths until the last day at your house. In retrospect though that probably contributed to the lack of staff and equipment at the lodge you booked us at. <<

You see John; here is the real scenario and truth behind the deal. When I suggested a trip to Vic Falls as a possibility, your words were SOUNDS GREAT KOBUS, GO AHEAD AND BOOK IT – I WANT TO TREAT MY FAMILY TO SOMETHING SPECIAL!


>>I leave this to the readers to judge whether a $17,000 trip extension is reasonable to surprise us with or not. <<

In my many years of business it has never been our custom nor will it ever be, to question a client’s capability to pay for his excursion to Africa. We never question affordability as we believe it’s a private and confidential matter, and subsequently will not embarrass or insult a client buy ASKING IF HE INDEED CAN AFFORD THE TRIP????
All of our clients so far have done one of two things:
a) ASKED US TO MAKE A BOOKING, came on Safari and paid their dues, or .
b) Clients of a lesser financial standing have acted responsibly and asked for a quote to do xyz?
What did you do John? You just said sounds great Kobus, please go ahead and book VIC FALLS for me. After arrival in Namibia, you then change attitude and say it is pure lunacy to expect anybody to actually pay such an amount of money for such a trip. Well, here is the good news, may people actually can afford such trips and pay it with a smile. Now, here is the bad news, what’s lunacy is your attitude of wanting to blame your own incapability or arrogance on me or my company. Face your own music John and grow up, become more responsible in life and live to your means and not above it. You don’t need to try and impress people as far you go, just try and be honest and sincere and you will get a lot more value for your buck.


>>Please don’t confuse ability with willingness to pay for such things. <<

After you simply rejected the VIC FALLS trip as pure lunacy, you left me high and dry to sort out your mess created by you simply being blasé. I had to foot your bill to the tune of an additional
5000 US$ I had to pay in and subsequently loose because of MR JOHN HUNT’S arrogance and incapability of putting his money where his mouth is.


>> I did give you $6000 to split this mistake with you. I think that was generous considering the circumstances. <<

And, in typical style you still go ahead and try and portray a public image of a run down company and run down vehicles etc? Our vehicles are all in good working order John, some virtually brand new, some much older but well kept – you see John out here we live to our means and not above them!


>>The truck could not accommodate our family (4 of us). The truck your staff borrowed from the local lodge had holes in it. In addition for the Etosha trip that you planned for us we had to hire a larger vehicle locally since, by law, everyone had to ride inside the vehicle while inside the park. The equipment provided was not adequate for your guests. <<

What’s a pity is that you do not have the courage to go public as to how your son (a non hunter – before the trip) turned out and become the main hunter on this trip. You refrain from saying how much attention my staff gave your son to boost his confidence and put him on the road to becoming a great hunter. You even refrain from saying how excited and thrilled you were with this result.


>>This is correct. Jack shot his first animals on this trip and was thrilled. As I told you on the last day Françoise has a promising career as a PH. <<

Your hunt was booked as 1x1 hunt. One hunter – one ph, accompanied by observers. What did we end up with? You, your son and your daughter all hunting? And I still kept their rates as observers to help you, instead of converting their rate to a hunter’s daily rate?


>> I do believe that we reworked this in our discussions and all hunters were paid for. <<

It is further a pity that you don’t mention the fact that although you also wounded a Zebra (this after you swore high and dry that you shot your second shot into the wounded zebra, we still picked up a second dead zebra) Did we charge your for this – no!


>>I can’t really respond to this other then to say I do not believe I shot two Zebra. We only found one blood trail and only one Zebra that day. Nor did anyone in the party think there were two wounded Zebra in the field. It wasn’t mentioned nearly two weeks later as we parted ways either. This is the first I have heard of a second Zebra. <<

I will not even go into the ridiculous accusations of *H’s not wanting to get off the vehicle or hunt. Go ahead and fabricate your stories John! Perhaps you have just never in your life been confronted by someone who called your bluff and brought you down to earth.


>>It is not a fabrication. Please check with your PH’s on this point. You might be disappointed with what you learn. For hunting to be enjoyable and rewarding you need to earn your animals. Simply driving up to a watering hole and shooting a Springbok from the top of the truck is not my idea of fair chase. <<

To the public out there I can only apologize for having to waste your time with “BS†like this. You will soon be seeing a lot of our company on some of your outdoor TV channels hosted by great people. Watch our show and make up your own mind.


>>My good friends went on a hunt with this outfitter just before we arrived. They had a great experience but ours was less than stellar. But that is a good point for anyone planning a hunt as I mentioned in my report. Get the details for your specific hunt, allow for no ambiguity. <<



Regarding you John, good luck and always feel free to contact me at your earliest convenience.


Regards



Kobus Honiball

John can you post your pictures? I would at least like to see what you guys got out of this deal!

Dr. Tim

Hey Tim.

I certainly will but can't do it for a few days because all the pix are on a chip in L-worth and I am at home.

Cheers,
John

Mr. Honiball,

"Methinks thou doth protest too much".

Pretty nasty response to resonable charges. $17,000.00 for a side trip? Seems a bit on the high side to me.

And another one bites the dust?

Although I dont like the tone of Kobus's remarks at this point I can understand his anger. I am sure he feels slighted and betrayed. It is also just as apparent that John does as well. He at least in tone is behaving in a more gentlemanly manner at the moment. It apprears to me that this was a case of bad communication on all sides that then digressed to something uglier as human nature is want to do. I cant really take a side per say as I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. It should be a lesson for all, both clients and outfitters, to make sure everything is spelled out and dont assume anything. It is obviuosly the lack of communication that caused what I imagined to have been a very tense camp all around.
John, thank you for posting your side of this. I would also like to thank Kobus for replying as well. I hope you gentleman can work this out at some future point but I fear the damage is done. The only good that will come of this is as a learning experience for others and perhaps yourselves as well. I am truly sorry things went so wrong for you both.
Mike

Wow, 17k for a three day side trip?

Was the Victoria Falls area reserved for your privacy?!

I would be curious to know how you can spend that kind of money in three days.

I know members frown on outfitters commenting on other outfitters, and I have tried to stay out of most of the mudslinging we have seen recently. Although I cannot say I would like to hunt with SOME of the clients in these posts, it must be said that all of them had a fair point, after reading both sides of the story. I have had clients that were unhappy with some things this year. How did we handle it? Eat humble pie and do EVERYTHING in order to make it right for them.

Also, it must be said, that all the outfitters, in defending them and their business have acted in a less than professional manner, I think in any case.

In this case, John, Kobus should have e-mailed you at some time prior to your arrival in Namibia, with an idea of what this side trip would cost......To say that you except that people can afford it just because they say "sure, go ahead and book it", does not mean you do not have to contact them with an approx. costing of the trip.......$17k being a hell of a lot for a side trip the more of a justification to do so......

Only my two cents......Sorry to hear John, I do hope this has not put you off on hunting Africa in total.....

First time I've ever felt like adding my 2 pennies worth to such a post, but:

Hell will have frozen over before I book with that guy!

Did the side trip include an elephant hunt by any chance????

I've owned a successful growing business (not hunting related) for 25 years and what I've learned is that the customer is always King and is always right. Sometimes you have to suck it up and give them what they want to make things right. And never ever blast the customer in public. It certainly won't win you any new customers.

$17,000 for Victoria Falls for 3 days....seems like an awful lot to me.

We stayed at the Zambezi Sun (Zambian Side) in 2007, were there for two days, had private shuttles everywhere we went, paid for excursions (zambezi river cruise, sunset cruise, et cetera) - We paid less than $1500 for everything including airfare, meals, drinks, curios, you name it.

I would have to agree that the $17k for the falls trip was way over the top. The outfit should have asked for a price range before committing to that kind of figure. I would suspect that some of the other issues developed once this one hit th fan on arrival.

Not a good way to start a relationship..... arrive, and "oh, by the way, send a bunch more money"

Well, hell, I'm not taking sides here because basically I'm on the hunters, but if the hunter says, "Book it." and is dumb enough not to ask prices before that point, what do you expect? Especially with an outfitter who is on the very upper end of hunting costs in Namibia as is.

I've got to revise my "schedule" of what really screwing visiting hunters is in Namibia, until now, I thought trying to charge someone $2200 for driving a hundred miles or so RT and driving around and spending the night in Etosha for 4 people was outrageous. I just didn't know what outrageous was.......

I'm glad some people can pay his prices and more power to them, but he hasn't lost my business, he never had it. Too high for a poor old country boy from Texas and that was before the $17,000 side trip.

I'd certainly like to see the "cost" breakdown of the $17,000 3 day trip to Vic Falls.

Just as a comparison, my son and I HUNTED for 9 days and toured for another 6 via private vehicle, shot 10 plains game animals, 12 if you count a baboon and a jackal, which I don't, and the TOTAL cost including RT airfare DFW to WDH, tips, etc was almost exactly what the 3 day trip to Vic Falls would cost.

My opinion, which is just that, is that he only wants to deal with clients who don't care what it costs and don't ask questions, helps the bottom line, what?

I don't know up to date Namibian charter costs but it's nowhere near impossible to rack up that kind of cost for a side trip to another country.....it could be that a (biggish if it was a family) charter plane was due to collect them from the concession, fly to (probably?) Windhoek to clear customs, then onto Vic Falls to clear customs again, then onto an upmaket photo lodge to drop the clients off for a few days in said upmarket/expensive lodge, then a repeat of the charters back to the hunting area or elsewhere in Namibia....... and you wouldn't have any problem spending that kind of money.

Some luxury lodges in Africa charge well in excess of US$1000 per person per night and so four people for 3 nights would cost US$12000. - and they usually expect payment up front. Even at half that and a long/expensive charter with multiple legs could bring you up to and possibly beyond that figure.

I can think of several companies that have photo safari lodges in Africa that charge in excess of US$2K a night........ sometimes well in excess of that figure..... but they are bloody nice!

The answer is to ask the price first.......

The lesson here is" remember, this is a business deal. The fact that it is your adventure doesn't change the fact that it is a commercial transaction. Ask for the price, verify it, stay in communication with the broker/outfitter and once the details are wired down, wire them down again."
The client should have checked on the cost, but I also would expect an outfitter to get specific approval before booking a client for a $17,000 add on.
Another lesson: book with an outfitter whose pricing level is consistent with your ability/willingness to pay. For example I book with Mark Kyriacou in Botswana not Johan Calitz. Mark provides an excellent hunt in a spectacular part of the Okavango Delta for what I believe is a reasonable price. Calitz provides an excellent hunt in a spectacular part of the Okavango Delta for a significantly higher price. I'm sure that Calitz provides some extra "perks" for the premium, perhaps bone china and fine Italian sheets, and some are willing to pay for them. If so, God bless you, go for it and enjoy it fully. Personally Mark fits my budget better. It looks like part of the problem here is a beer drinker ordering off the champagne menu. Don't book with a high end outfitter if you don't want to pay the high end prices. Africa is sufficiently spectacular that you will have a great time, and a great hunt, at a cost level that is comfortable for you.
Finally, the Outfitter, who is also off my list of future possibles - too rich for blood, has a right to expect your silence if you reached a deal settling all issues. If you didn't, post away, but if you shook on the deal, shut up. Point out the lessons learned, but leave the sordid details out. I don't know if you did shake on the deal, if so that would explain why the outfitter is so pissed off.
My 2 cents

TerryR

A situation like this must be avoided at all costs and frequent and detailed communication between the hunter and the outfitter before the trip is the only way.

The purpose of these hunting reports is that all others can learn from it, but sadly it could not avoid the sad outcome - only good communication could have.

MCD
Uitspan Hunting, Namibia

I didn't find Mr Hunt's report to be all that offensive concerning the outfitter. I thought he was being honest and forthwright about how his hunt went. The oufitter on the other hand came across rather abrasive and if this is how he treats his clients when things don't go the way they should, I would have second thoughts about booking a hunt with them. With that being said, If I were the hunter on this trip I would have asked about the cost of the side trip before giving the go ahead, $17,000 is a LOT of money to me for a 3 day side trip. Hopefully this can be resolved with some civility from this point on.

Here are some photo's of the trip.

On arrival and saying goodbye to our good friends Dr. Tim and family.


The god of all warthogs (in a zoo)


Jack's Gemsbok


Savi's Gemsbok


Jack's Springbok (his first)


Savi's Springbok


Jackal and Wildcat



Savi's Zebra and my rare dwarf zebra



Holes in the bottom of our truck (those are size 12 feet)


Serious truck envy (seen in Etosha)

I'm obviously not from the same planet as some who hunt here, but several years ago I passed on a shot on a steenbok BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW HOW MUCH IT WOULD COST. I can't imagine blithely telling an outfitter to book a side trip to a tourist destination without knowing a wee bit more.

Shakari makes some good points, and it is surely possible to rack up those kind of charges with a private charter involved. As for the $1000 a night lodges I assume is very possible per room, but per person... I have a hard time stomaching that one. It must be the most exclusive place on the continent. Even luxury lodges in the Seychelles are paid for by the roon not by the person usually.

So it is entirely possible to rack up that kind of bill for a 3 day side trip witout actully buying part of the falls themsleves. With this I must state that I cannot imagine how a safari operator could even fathom that a "side trip" of this cost did not need approval.

Kobus does a good job of "putting a spin" on the cost and how his client said, "sounds great, book it". The way he tries to be little the client by saying that many people pay for this type of thing regularly and smile. Kobus is grasping here to try and save face by downing the clients financial situation. John already said to not mistake his ability with willingness to pay for such a trip......

I have to say that I agree that John should have asked the price, however; the outfitter should have had the sense to realize the spending of nearly $20,000 probably needs approval. I have been guilty myself of the same thing. You get to Africa, the trip you have been dreaming of for however long and meet new friends that are going to take you on this adventure and you put your trust and friendship in them to take care of you. You have a sense of security with your PH or outfitter so surely there is no reason to ask about prices, you just want to enjoy the trip and breate it all in.....they are not going to try and screw you, they are your friends...they have your best interest in mind....and most of the time they do.

On an ele hunt in Tcholotcho several years ago we had a few days after I took my ele, and I told the outfitter to set me and my fiance a tiger fishing trip, no questioins asked. We drove 8 hours to the Kariba and fished one day, had a look at the Croc farm and then drove to 5 hours to hunt buffalo elsewhere......I paid the fishing guide $300 USD and that was the total cost of the trip............Should I have asked about the price...yes probably but I didnt and luckily it worked out. Later at the end of the safari when we were settleing up the trophy fees etc, Willy told me the fishing was $300, I said, "that was cheap" and he made the statement that he didnt feel like it was significant enought to bother me and my fiance with during the hunt, obviously, lucky me....

I do not like the unprofessional manner that Kobus tries to deal with this situation. I do not think he was trying to "rip off" John but his business practices sure need some work. I would deffinately never book with this outfit and I would tell others that were interested to beware.....

My assumption, and this was clearly naive/wrong and based on a lack of communication, was that the vic falls daily rate would be the same as the daily rate for the hunting. I thought at the time I was trading 3 days of hunting for 3 days of sightseeing at the falls. (In fact the last time I was in Vic falls it was even less.) So when I said "book it" I wasn't actually expecting anything additional on the excursion (except for possibly some flying time).

Again... this is a lesson about communication, and judgement. When it doesn't happen all sorts of things can and will go sideways.

And in relation to the budget comments. I would put out there that just because you can afford to pay for something doesn't mean you want to or should. ie: Just because you can afford a Rolls Royce doesn't mean you want to buy one.

It wasn't like this was a 10% swing in the total trip cost or even a 20%... this was a 60%+ swing in the cost. Most outfitters and agents that I have talked to about this have agreed that a reasonable expectation would be to have run the cost by me before it was booked.

Regards,

John

Silwane,

Not only are there places out there that charge US$1000 per person per night, there are places that charge well in excess of US$2000 per night........ and there's a big enough market out there for that kind of thing to mean that many require a booking a year in advance. All that I know require at least 50% of the cost to confirm the booking and the remainder at least 90 days before arrival. Many ask for full payment on booking.

I have to say when we book clients into that or any other kind of accommodation not only do we get approval beforehand, we also get have everything in a contract and full payment beforehand.

I'll also add that anyone who contemplates a 'short side trip' to another African country should expect it to be a very big expense. It stands to reason that even just getting there and back would be very expensive.

quote:

Originally posted by silwane:
Shakari makes some good points, and it is surely possible to rack up those kind of charges with a private charter involved. As for the $1000 a night lodges I assume is very possible per room, but per person... I have a hard time stomaching that one. It must be the most exclusive place on the continent. Even luxury lodges in the Seychelles are paid for by the roon not by the person usually.

So it is entirely possible to rack up that kind of bill for a 3 day side trip witout actully buying part of the falls themsleves. With this I must state that I cannot imagine how a safari operator could even fathom that a "side trip" of this cost did not need approval.

Kobus does a good job of "putting a spin" on the cost and how his client said, "sounds great, book it". The way he tries to be little the client by saying that many people pay for this type of thing regularly and smile. Kobus is grasping here to try and save face by downing the clients financial situation. John already said to not mistake his ability with willingness to pay for such a trip......

I have to say that I agree that John should have asked the price, however; the outfitter should have had the sense to realize the spending of nearly $20,000 probably needs approval. I have been guilty myself of the same thing. You get to Africa, the trip you have been dreaming of for however long and meet new friends that are going to take you on this adventure and you put your trust and friendship in them to take care of you. You have a sense of security with your PH or outfitter so surely there is no reason to ask about prices, you just want to enjoy the trip and breate it all in.....they are not going to try and screw you, they are your friends...they have your best interest in mind....and most of the time they do.

On an ele hunt in Tcholotcho several years ago we had a few days after I took my ele, and I told the outfitter to set me and my fiance a tiger fishing trip, no questioins asked. We drove 8 hours to the Kariba and fished one day, had a look at the Croc farm and then drove to 5 hours to hunt buffalo elsewhere......I paid the fishing guide $300 USD and that was the total cost of the trip............Should I have asked about the price...yes probably but I didnt and luckily it worked out. Later at the end of the safari when we were settleing up the trophy fees etc, Willy told me the fishing was $300, I said, "that was cheap" and he made the statement that he didnt feel like it was significant enought to bother me and my fiance with during the hunt, obviously, lucky me....

I do not like the unprofessional manner that Kobus tries to deal with this situation. I do not think he was trying to "rip off" John but his business practices sure need some work. I would deffinately never book with this outfit and I would tell others that were interested to beware.....

Sorry guys I hit the Post button half way through my reply so I reposted it here.

John
Being a Alaskan fishing guide that books hundred of clients a year I see your problem from a guides point of view. Sorry if this comes across as too harsh.

First I would point out you were 100% wrong to assume you could trade out cheaper PG hunt rates for a fly-out luxury air safari for you and your family - Nobody will do this! Why did you think you could trade? Did anybody say you could?

You had extra time and you had the outfitter pre book a fly-out excursion to Vick Falls in your behalf. You refused /canceled at the very last minute because you had no idea what a trip like this cost.. Leaving the outfitter to pay a bill he's legally responsible for. You say this changed the tenor of the entire trip. I bet it did! Can you fault him? Even paying half of your bill.; Hes still stuck with a $5000 bill because "you" did not know the cost of fly out safaris you booked. I totally understand how you must have felt.. But at some point you need to accept responsibility for for your actions. Like you said, Just because you can afford a Rolls Royce doesn't mean you want to buy one. But if you want to drive Rolls Royce you should expect to pay for one. Fly out Excursions are only marketed to the upper end market. How much did you think it would cost ? I think it safe to say you had no idea what African air safaris cost. In fact few people do.

A one minute search on the internet will show you the cost of fly out trips. Example 4 day 3 nights air chart /tour of the Skeleton Coast is $5495 per person sharing. Total cost for 4 people with out any taxes is $ 21,980 US

Nobody like surprise fees or added on costs, But you cant blame the outfitter for your wrong assumptions?

Caught up in the excitement of booking a vacation you made some really bad assumptions. A little home work would have saved everybody money and trouble!

Get everything in writing and do not assume anything!

John, Thanks for taking the time to share lessons learned, as hard as they were. I appreciate your openness, and taking responsibility for not lining things up clearly enough. Your comments are those of a gentleman. Kobus obviously runs a great outfit that most of the time exceeds expectations, but could learn to respond in a more gentlemanly manner. We can all learn from this experience.
Mike

Sorry but I agree with Robert Johnson...
I don't understand why you don't asked prices before booking something with someone that's is doing busines with you, he is not your friend or familiar...

L

How many holes did the Zebra have in it when you picked it up?


FB

Guys while I didn't ask specifically about the cost of the Vic Falls Trip I was asking for totals on the safari itself. Before we left the only number they provided was the origninal number in the contract.

The last few emails were as follows (I was asking for "final numbers" because we added a couple of days at the beginning of the trip to see our friends);

May 16 - said vic falls sounds good
June 25 - sent req for final numbers they returned wire instructions (but no numbers)
June 30 - asked again
July 1 - said vic falls sounds good again
July 3 - three messages asking for final numbers (as banks were closing). These were read but not responded to. Finally sent balance due on contract.

Here is how Vic Falls was presented to me (this was following a detailed itinerary I assumed that we were trading the fish canyon days for Vic Falls);

If you want to do Victoria Falls we will do 3 day's, leaving the 17th July
to Livingston in Zambia. Ride on Elephant's doing g a game drive on the
back of them and also do the tour for Victoria Falls, one of the seven
wonders of the world. We will be back into Namibia to do 1 day on the
Zambezi River and see all: Elephants, Hippos, Crocs and Buffalo etc.
The program will then be adjusted accordingly so that we do not do the Fish
River Canyon Hunt, but just fly over the Fish River.

The following is my last email to Kobus before leaving on the jet plane (sent July 3rd);

Kobus,

My mistake. I missed the international wire deadline today and with Friday
being a holiday this will be processed on Monday. I have asked the bank to
email the confirmation directly to you.

I have ordered the transfer of $26,000 to your account. That should
provide a bit extra as I noticed you have more than 5 different critters
available.

See you guys in a couple of days.

Cheers,

John

John,

Kobus should not have booked the trip, plain and simple. That is my opinion of the whole matter. Hopefully, Jonathan's deal will be redemptive in your African hunting life!

TJB

Tim,

Jonny and Nina have a great outfit. I have a lot of confidence that it will be a great trip in 2010.

John

Whoa...... $17,000 on top of $26,000

Don't really appreciate the outfitters tone in the email.

Besides the fact that I can't afford to hunt with him I'd be too affaid to question anything in fear of driving on the back of that truck.

I was advised by George Caswell of Champlin Firearms to use a reputable US agent for my first African trip to prevent such situations. I have booked about a dozen hunts with Sporting International since then and all were smooth with no surprises. Beat advice I ever got!

I understand the hunter's point of view as he believes he is merely "posting a hunt report." However, I also understand the outfitter's point of view in that he thought because they "shook hands" and everything had been dealt with that it was over to some extent.

I believe in getting what you contract for and more, but I also believe that outfitters in Africa tend to believe that if you leave the bush on okay terms that means they don't get bad-mouthed when you get back or else it should have been "handled on the ground."

To some extent I agree with that because otherwise hunters basically hold all outfitters hostage. What I find so amazing - and this is not specifically about this incident at all - is that so many people automatically assume that the client is telling the 100% truth and if it didn't come from him then it isn't even part of the story. They then proceed to think they have the right to attack the outfitters, call them names, etc. These are people who don't know these outfitters, don't really know everything about that incident, etc. Just seems a little junior high in my opinion.

Please don't post anything specifically to me as I have learned on the forum that anything you say will be held against you and I usually don't ever respond because of that. People seem to go one of two ways and there is no place for folks who go down the middle.

I'm not sure who's right here, maybe both to varying degrees [though I am leaning to the hunter's side - it "sounds" to me like the outfitter figured that he had a "live one" on the hook and booked everything he could with the highest commission rates to himself - $2400 of hotel and car for 4 days in Cape Town, in winter! Well maybe, but on the high side.]

BUT, did you look at that "Contract" included in the brochure? Sheesh!!!
That would have ended any further discussions after reading that!

This whole thing supports the notion of getting it all in writing! [though none of my 6 trips have had a contract, identifying and agreeing to all the details and costs up front does seem prudent].

Les

Our "contract" was a mutually signed invoice until I got to country and we started having problems. Then he had his guides try to get me to sign that one for days. I did in the end because he said his insurance company would/could cause him trouble if it wasn't (and frankly I don't want to cause him that kind of trouble). But that was only after we agreed on how this thing would end.

The key takeaway that I want to give everyone is to really lock your trip down. Don't allow for any (even remote) ambiguity. From experience this is not the conversation you want to have "in country". It puts you at a severe disadvantage, especially if you have your family with you.

Just wandering if there was ever a signed booking confirmation stipulating every aspect of the trip.
If not then there is a lesson to be learned for both parties involved.

All my clients get a signed booking confirmation with a breakdown of the trip and all costs involved long before they arrive , the same documentation doubles as a Contract and indemnity. The booking confirmation is signed by the clients and then returned to me. This ensures that both the clients and outfitter has something legal to fall back to.

Sometimes things do go wrong and it should be handled in such a manner that both parties are happy with the outcome. Mudslinging like this is interesting to read but is not healthy.

Not having any knowledge about the client or the operator I will not pick sides but there are other ways of handling issues like this.
Was a complaint ever passed on to the disciplinary committee of Napha? I'm sure they could have handled it. It would have been much better to have read how a client and a operator solved a problem than to read this.

A PH too lazy to get of the Vehicle? Fire his &SS

Last question: Where can I Find that Pig????

The short answer is no. We had some email communication and a signed cost breakdown (invoice) but nothing else.

I hadn't considered sending this report to Napha as I am not trying to get something from the outfitter. What I did want is for other hunters and outfitters to use this as an object lesson so they can avoid a similar situation. This was a poorly handled mistake. But that is what it was, a mistake, nothing more or less. People can make them from time to time. I am not our for revenge and don't want to ruin his business for it, I just don't want it to happen again.

That pig is in a small zoo next to Otjikoto Lake. With a proper donation I bet you could...

There appears to be fault here on both sides. However, the arrogant, rude, and condescending tone of Kobus is enough to convince me that I would never book with his firm. That John had the decency to invite his comment within his post is very telling of his character, as is Kobus's reply.

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:
There appears to be fault here on both sides. However, the arrogant, rude, and condescending tone of Kobus is enough to convince me that I would never book with his firm. That John had the decency to invite his comment within his post is very telling of his character, as is Kobus's reply.

Kim, your statement bears some truth. I can also understand Kobus getting defensive it's his livelyhood at stake. The 17,000 Vic Falls excursion price should have been forwarded to John before the booking for John's OK even though he said 'book it', that's a lot of coin for a few days.

Dirk