My wife had her shoulder bag forcibly stolen when an intruder entered the B&B where we were checking in. Travelers checque company required extensive reports and documentation to start refund process, now says "at least 12 weeks". These cheques were not countersigned. We are pristine as to personal credit and legal history, so no suspicion can be suggested. Anyone with knowledge on how to deal with this arbitrary delay is appreciated. Have found, too late, that delay and denial are standard tactics.
Hunt and PH were great. Not a reason to avoid another trip.

I think Bill aka llamapacker is an expert on this subject, maybe pm him.

Brad, you owe me a keyboard and a half roll of paper towels.

Where was this B&B at???

Armorer,

Despite the comments from the peanut gallery sure to follow, you will get your refund. They will do a thorough investigation, and in a few months time you will get your money. There isn't much to be done to hurry the process, and I would council patience. It may be an inconvenience to have to wait, but this is far better than having lost cash.

Despite your claims of innocence and pristine credit, some on this forum will erroneously claim the loss was all your fault, or something like that. Ignore the ignorant fools. If your story is accurate, you will get your refund, but it will take some time.

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by llamapacker:
Armorer,

Despite the comments from the peanut gallery sure to follow, you will get your refund. They will do a thorough investigation, and in a few months time you will get your money. There isn't much to be done to hurry the process, and I would council patience. It may be an inconvenience to have to wait, but this is far better than having lost cash.

Despite your claims of innocence and pristine credit, some on this forum will erroneously claim the loss was all your fault, or something like that. Ignore the ignorant fools. If your story is accurate, you will get your refund, but it will take some time.

Bill

Well Phifer, any PH on this board that takes checks from you is a fool.

Hmm, another season rolls around and we haven't heard any comments about theft from Nixon. Why do you suppose that is?

Hey, where is AFRhunter? Kind of funny how he appeared to defend you and then disappeared.

Here is one indisputable fact: you claim you only posted on AR from your computer at the University. Says a lot about your character right there.

Another AZ:

Nice of you to help out Armorer. Not many of your comments are constructive, so no reason to be surprised.

You will also notice that there haven't been any hunt reports posted about Nixon this year either. I wonder why...

Good Luck Armorer. I knew there would be at least one jackass who would try to start a pissing match, without offering anything helpful. Someone will be along shortly to defend the poor, hapless crook who took your t.checks. Isn't the internet wonderful?

Bill

Someone will have to fill in the blanks on this one for me!

Thank you, llamapacker, for your constructive comments. Our concern is personal and concurrently for our PH whose loss is several times ours in travelers cheques we had already used to pay him. The PH/owner came to our assistance, took us to his house, fed us dinner and breakfast, and guided us through the gantlet of the airport. Getting it resolved for us is hopefully the same benefit for him. Their collective concern was that the hunt was successful and my wife was not hurt. That is a truly Professional Hunter.

Don't worry Armorer, yours is an honest accounting, you will get your refund. Experience shows that American Express refunds to guys even when their account isn't accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Someone will have to fill in the blanks on this one for me!

Old news, Lane. And not a positive story unfortunately. Best left alone, IMHO.

I've only had one experience with refunds on American Express travelers cheques and it wasn't good, although it didn't cost me any $$. Let me explain - I paid my PH for a hunt with Amex travelers cheques. Shortly after arriving home I received a call from the PH. His vehicle along with the travelers checks I had given him was stolen. I contacted Amex and told them of the incident.

They informed me that they would stop payment on the checks but since I had given the checks to the PH and they were stolen from him that he would have to file the claim. The PH then filed a claim with Amex. Several months later I learned from him that Amex had denied his claim. I don't know exactly why, but since I paid for the checks and payment was stopped by Amex, who subsequently denied reimbursement to the PH, it looks like Amex has pocketed several thousand $$.

It appears thar Dr. Easter and I will remain clueless on the back-story.

Don't think that I will investigate the old thread[s]. I deal with plenty of silliness in real life.

quote:

Originally posted by Labman:
I've only had one experience with refunds on American Express travelers cheques and it wasn't good, although it didn't cost me any $$. Let me explain - I paid my PH for a hunt with Amex travelers cheques. Shortly after arriving home I received a call from the PH. His vehicle along with the travelers checks I had given him was stolen. I contacted Amex and told them of the incident.

They informed me that they would stop payment on the checks but since I had given the checks to the PH and they were stolen from him that he would have to file the claim. The PH then filed a claim with Amex. Several months later I learned from him that Amex had denied his claim. I don't know exactly why, but since I paid for the checks and payment was stopped by Amex, who subsequently denied reimbursement to the PH, it looks like Amex has pocketed several thousand $$.

And the PH, having been short-changed several thousand $ by AMEX just accepted the loss and let it ride? - and AMEX gave no substantiating reason for denying reimbursement?

Surely once the TCs were blocked it suggests they had not been cashed (AMEX would know if they had been cashed or not).
Strictly speaking therefore the person to be reimbursed should have been the original drawer of the cheques, ie. Labman, after all, the purchase records for the TCs are traceable back to the original buyer, who once reimbursed by AMEX could/should have made alternative arrangements with the PH for settlement.

I deal extensively with AMEX on a daily basis, and although typically they are a good tool, they are not different from many other "financial services" companies. Thye are only going to pay or make good on what you MAKE them make good on.

quote:

Where was this B&B at???

?? What Country ??

I guess I'm old and set in my ways. AND my bank gave me crap about travelers checks. so I just carry cash and my ATM card.

I think TCs become as good as cash once they are counter signed.

Don't know which company issued your TC.

While in Sydney, Australia immigration, inspector asked me to step into an office. When I came back, my carry-on was missing together with a significant amount of American Express TC. (No reason to believe that immigration was involved; a gang had been working the airport).
Amex advised me to go to their downtown office where 50% of the total value of checks was immediately issued. Balance was issued within a few weeks after return to USA.

Have also had unrelated insurance claims for lost luggage with Amex. Always prompt payment.

Have had nothing but good experiences with Amex, contrary to some "other" travelers insurance companies where obfuscation, delay and non-payment seem to rule the day.

quote:

Originally posted by armorer:
My wife had her shoulder bag forcibly stolen when an intruder entered the B&B where we were checking in. Travelers checque company required extensive reports and documentation to start refund process, now says "at least 12 weeks". These cheques were not countersigned. We are pristine as to personal credit and legal history, so no suspicion can be suggested. Anyone with knowledge on how to deal with this arbitrary delay is appreciated. Have found, too late, that delay and denial are standard tactics.
Hunt and PH were great. Not a reason to avoid another trip.

Kibokolambogo - That's exactly what the PH and I thought, but AMEX was adament. They accepted the initial report from me and said they would immediately issue a stop payment order, but since the PH accepted the TC's from me as payment and they were subsequently stolen from him, that he was the injured party and would have to file the claim for reimbursement. When you think about it for awhile it makes sense.

If AMEX reimbursed me and I just pocketed the $$ (which of course I would never do) where would that leave the PH? The theft occured in Zimbabwe and I'm in the US. Of course, no one expected AMEX to deny his claim. I haven't heard anything else from the PH since he informed me of the denied claim and I never did get a reason from him for the AMEX denial. Just an email saying they were refusing to pay.

quote:

Originally posted by Labman:
Kibokolambogo - That's exactly what the PH and I thought, but AMEX was adament. They accepted the initial report from me and said they would immediately issue a stop payment order, but since the PH accepted the TC's from me as payment and they were subsequently stolen from him, that he was the injured party and would have to file the claim for reimbursement. When you think about it for awhile it makes sense.

If AMEX reimbursed me and I just pocketed the $$ (which of course I would never do) where would that leave the PH? The theft occured in Zimbabwe and I'm in the US. Of course, no one expected AMEX to deny his claim. I haven't heard anything else from the PH since he informed me of the denied claim and I never did get a reason from him for the AMEX denial. Just an email saying they were refusing to pay.

Labman:

There appears to be some BS being flung about, either by AMEX or the PH - let's look at the scenario:

TCs are signed and exchanged hands (PH);
PH either deposits in personal account or draws cash from an exchange bureau who knows him personally for an honest person.(PH should however have your passport details as an aid to clearing the TCs) - When the Exchange Bureau claims from AMEX all details are in place - it would appear that you exchanged the TCs for cash;

Under normal circumstances the recipient of the TCs (PH) is obliged to enter his name as beneficiary on and deposit the TCs in his account pending clearance from AMEX before the tendered value will be credited to his account (anywhere between 7 - 21 days);

If countersigned TCs are stolen and somehow encashed there still needs to be a trail and whichever the case, either the receiving bank or exchange bureau will be ultimately responsible to AMEX for having contravened a stop payment.

For AMEX to declare the PH as being responsible for the TCs in my opinion is BS - the TCs were drawn out by Labman and AMEX has the responsibility to accept Labman's declaration for their loss/theft, whatever - it is none of their business that the TCs were given to the PH, Freddie Martin or Lady Lay.

That's what I know about TCs - I may be wrong of course.

quote:

Originally posted by llamapacker:
Another AZ:

Nice of you to help out Armorer. Not many of your comments are constructive, so no reason to be surprised.

You will also notice that there haven't been any hunt reports posted about Nixon this year either. I wonder why...

Good Luck Armorer. I knew there would be at least one jackass who would try to start a pissing match, without offering anything helpful. Someone will be along shortly to defend the poor, hapless crook who took your t.checks. Isn't the internet wonderful?

Bill

No worries.. I will be more than happy to post a report following my hunt with Nixon in less than 3 weeks.. There isn't a doubt in my mind regarding Nixon's integrity.. Your's.?? Well that's an entirely different matter.. Let me guess, you got the Amex refund just in time to book your second African hunt What a guy..

quote:

Originally posted by Labman:
I've only had one experience with refunds on American Express travelers cheques and it wasn't good, although it didn't cost me any $$. Let me explain - I paid my PH for a hunt with Amex travelers cheques. Shortly after arriving home I received a call from the PH. His vehicle along with the travelers checks I had given him was stolen. I contacted Amex and told them of the incident.

They informed me that they would stop payment on the checks but since I had given the checks to the PH and they were stolen from him that he would have to file the claim. The PH then filed a claim with Amex. Several months later I learned from him that Amex had denied his claim. I don't know exactly why, but since I paid for the checks and payment was stopped by Amex, who subsequently denied reimbursement to the PH, it looks like Amex has pocketed several thousand $$.

I guess I am not following....

AMEX TC are to protect YOU, the purchaser, from loss, not subsequent merchants that receive the checks for payment. The fact AMEX would even consider a claim by a robbed merchant is amazing. I would imagine AMEX considered leaving such a large sum in a vehicle in Africa not the most prudent thing to do. But, having been a victim of a car break-in, I do feel bad for your PH and his loss.

quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:

For AMEX to declare the PH as being responsible for the TCs in my opinion is BS - the TCs were drawn out by Labman and AMEX has the responsibility to accept Labman's declaration for their loss/theft, whatever - it is none of their business that the TCs were given to the PH, Freddie Martin or Lady Lay.

Once countersigned, they are as good as cash. (well almost). They are to protect you from loss BEFORE you use them, not after they are signed. Of course their loss was the fault of the PH. Who left them in the car? Heck, I wouldn't leave a twenty laying in my car in the good ol US of A.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:

quote:

Originally posted by Labman:
I've only had one experience with refunds on American Express travelers cheques and it wasn't good, although it didn't cost me any $$. Let me explain - I paid my PH for a hunt with Amex travelers cheques. Shortly after arriving home I received a call from the PH. His vehicle along with the travelers checks I had given him was stolen. I contacted Amex and told them of the incident.

They informed me that they would stop payment on the checks but since I had given the checks to the PH and they were stolen from him that he would have to file the claim. The PH then filed a claim with Amex. Several months later I learned from him that Amex had denied his claim. I don't know exactly why, but since I paid for the checks and payment was stopped by Amex, who subsequently denied reimbursement to the PH, it looks like Amex has pocketed several thousand $$.

I guess I am not following....

AMEX TC are to protect YOU, the purchaser, from loss, not subsequent merchants that receive the checks for payment. The fact AMEX would even consider a claim by a robbed merchant is amazing. I would imagine AMEX considered leaving such a large sum in a vehicle in Africa not the most prudent thing to do. But, having been a victim of a car break-in, I do feel bad for your PH and his loss.

quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:

For AMEX to declare the PH as being responsible for the TCs in my opinion is BS - the TCs were drawn out by Labman and AMEX has the responsibility to accept Labman's declaration for their loss/theft, whatever - it is none of their business that the TCs were given to the PH, Freddie Martin or Lady Lay.

Once countersigned, they are as good as cash. (well almost). They are to protect you from loss BEFORE you use them, not after they are signed. Of course their loss was the fault of the PH. Who left them in the car? Heck, I wouldn't leave a twenty laying in my car in the good ol US of A.

Duckear:

Strictly speaking a countersigned TC can only be CASHED by the signatory who will show proof of identity and if need be, purchase,

As I had stated, the PH could probably have cashed through an exchange bureau if he was personally known, and even so, would have still had to provide details of the original drawer (name and passport number).

Alternatively the PH should have entered his name in the blank space provided and deposited into his account before going into town and should have known better than leaving them unattended in a vehicle - in a way it was an expensive lesson to be learned.

If you feel anyone can just go and cash (note: cash not deposit) someone else's TC without showing proof of purchase, identity etc. you are mistaken.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys01:
Where was this B&B at???

Again... where and what B & B were you going into?

quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:


Duckear:

Strictly speaking a countersigned TC can only be CASHED by the signatory who will show proof of identity and if need be, purchase,

As I had stated, the PH could probably have cashed through an exchange bureau if he was personally known, and even so, would have still had to provide details of the original drawer (name and passport number).

Alternatively the PH should have entered his name in the blank space provided and deposited into his account before going into town and should have known better than leaving them unattended in a vehicle - in a way it was an expensive lesson to be learned.

If you feel anyone can just go and cash (note: cash not deposit) someone else's TC without showing proof of purchase, identity etc. you are mistaken.

That begs the question, was the pay to line filled in correctly to the PH or left blank?

Duckear:

Theft is theft - whether the checks were left in the car which got broken into, even if the car was left unlocked, taken at gunpoint, snatch and grab - theft it is!

It doesn't make a difference whether the recipient had filled his name in the blank (Pay To) or not.

If the checks were stopped they should not have been paid.

If they were paid before they could be stopped the details of whoever cashed/deposited them have to be available and if not, the BANK or EXCHANGE BUREAU will be liable for compensation to AMEX who in turn will compensate LABMAN who will compensate the PH.

If the above explanation does not convince you maybe your Bank Manager will confirm (or deny)
what I have stated.

I always kept my TC and most of my cash in my shirt pocket, zipped closed.
Tip and snack money was in my pants pockets.

quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:
Duckear:

Theft is theft - whether the checks were left in the car which got broken into, even if the car was left unlocked, taken at gunpoint, snatch and grab - theft it is!

It doesn't make a difference whether the recipient had filled his name in the blank (Pay To) or not.

If the checks were stopped they should not have been paid.

If they were paid before they could be stopped the details of whoever cashed/deposited them have to be available and if not, the BANK or EXCHANGE BUREAU will be liable for compensation to AMEX who in turn will compensate LABMAN who will compensate the PH.

If the above explanation does not convince you maybe your Bank Manager will confirm (or deny)
what I have stated.

Of course I agree theft is theft. But the primary purpose of TC is to protect the traveler, not the merchant, after he has taken a valid, countersigned TC for payment.


Here is the agreement with AMEX to obtain a refund which also sheds a bit of light on the entire TC thing.

https://www145.americanexpress...RefundClaim_Form.pdf

It reads to me that they state they are under no obligation to stop payment.

Perhaps our legal eagles here could also explain the implications of the AMEX agreement and statement required to get a refund. Also, it seems to me that the only protected TC is one signed only in the the upper left corner and subsequently lost or stolen prior to being used for payment.

We have received restitution for our travelers cheques by persisting with the issuer. Our cheques were not"negotiable" as they repeatedly insisted they are. The cheques were NOT signed in the second position so any presentation would be, both visually and by our claim form attestation, a forgery. They insisted it would be "at least twelve weeks" before reimbursement would be considered. We told them by email and telephone they were incorrect and treating us unfairly.

Ultimately, we shared our views with a regulatory agency via online report. The next business day we had a phone call from the issuer's claims rep apologizing for "misunderstanding" our reports and phone conversations, declaring that our claim was approved, and arranging a wire transfer payment. They may have intended to ultimately reimburse us but we are confident that our persistence made a great difference.

Location of the loss and name of the B&B have not been included as this could have occurred anywhere. We were neither offered nor provided ANY HELP by the travelers cheque company. Had this not been the day prior to our departure and our professional hunter not greatly assisted, we would have been in trouble.