Hey guys:

I just got back from a fantastic hunt with Dr. Peter Harris, Dirk Faul and the crew at Ntshonalanga Safaris. www.ntshonalangasafaris.co.za I went with two friends of mine and we took 3 Lions and 3 Lioness' in one day in the Kalahari Desert. (I think that was some kind of record.) We then moved to another camp and took numerous plains game and a Cape Buffalo. If I ever figure out how to post pictures, I will add them.

I just want to tell everyone that if you want to hunt Lion, or anything else for that matter, at super prices and best-quality service, give them a call or send them an email. Tell them that 'Jeff Osment' sent you. It is the most fun you can have with your pants on!!!

Best regards,

Bwana91

was this in RSA? i would guess that 6 lions in one day must have been on a game farm( high fence).

Got any video of it?

Peter Harris, Is the best, most enjoyable person that I have ever hunted with. He knows his stuff and is a great host. He is an all around great guy.

Were you here?

Peter Harris and his parner Dion as I said before, are not only great PHs, they are true gentlemen and I'm positive that they still remain the same

And in a related story...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070602/ap_on_fe_st/monster...BWlnAk6.zyI5o.uek3QF

I am terribly sorry for you that you are under the woefully mistaken impression that what you experienced was anything remotely close to lion hunting.

The hunting of wild lion is nothing like what you describe. I mean no disrespect.

If I´m not mistaken, Peter Harris was making no efforts to hide the fact he was offering the hunting of bred animals in recent adverts?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana91:
mrlexma:

Please, tell me what your definition of "Lion hunting" is. I don't think that the Lion knows that he is in a 12,000 acre game area.

Bwana91

Bwana91

Are you sure that that the LIONS did not know that they were in 12,000 acres. Maybe you should do a little bit of math on the land base.

Now the last time I checked into a section of land, it had 640 acres and measured 1 mile by 1 mile. So by dividing 640 into 12,000 acres you get 18.75 sections of land. Now unless something has changed that only gives a ranch 4 miles wide and not even 5 miles long. That is not a very big area to chase 1 Lion.

But you have stated that not only did you chase 1 Lion your group chased a total of 3 Male Lions and 3 Female Lions. And "Trust me the lions were very wild."

Now I am not a expert on the biology of the male lion, but from what I can remember, I believe the home range of a lion is larger than 19 square miles and so the only way to have 3 adult male lions in such a small fenced enclosure is to either have them all from the same liter and raised together or just release each of the 3 male lions in a different corner of the ranch the morning of the hunt. Any more time that that and they might find each other and start fighting for control.

I am glad that you and your friends enjoyed your "Lion hunt".


Graylake

The activity you describe as "our sport" is NOT sporting and has nothing to do with hunting. You and your friends killed a bunch of pen raised lions. Don't embarrass yourselves and tarnish true sport hunters by attempting to describe what you did as big game hunting.

You and your friends are the ones who provide the "antis" with the foot-hold they want to turn public opinion against real hunters. Feel free to shoot zoo animals if you want, but just keep your mouth shut about it when you get home.

looks like folks are beginning to get the idea behind my earlier post! killing 3 males lions in a 19 square mile area is shooting but is definitely not hunting. that is fine too if that is your idea of sport but please don't present it as anything more than what it is-ducks in a barrel

Alot have been said about what constitutes hunting and what constitute shooting.

What is the difference between the hunter in a 'hunt' like the report posted above or a hunter that has done it in some unfenced wild place.Both smile equally wide posing next to their trophy.In both cases - who did the hunting and who did the shooting?

You have a PH, a couple trackers, a game scout etc. and you follow behind them and take the shot when they find you your quarry.Are you the hunter because you're all sweaty and worn out from a 20 mile trek across the wilderness?Put a treadmill on the back of a pick-up, set the incline and start walking and they'll tell you when to pull the trigger.

For what it's worth I have a perspective on this issue. If you have a 100% chance of killing a lion on a lion hunt then it cannot be called sporting. The animal must have a reasonable chance of evading the hunter or it is simply not ethical in my opinion. I was not there and cannot truly know what this particular hunt was like, but the killing of six lions in one day gives me a pretty good idea that I would not be interested in hunting this way.

As for the argument that says hunters should never criticize their own; I say we either police our own ranks or someone else will do it for us. Call a spade a spade I say.

Sorry but where I'm from we find it safer to call a "spade" a "shovel".....less commotion all around.

The topic of hunting behind a fence has been beaten to death. This hunt is no different than hunting whitetails at "The Sanctuary" in Michigan or a put-and-take pheasant hunt in many places in the US. The game ranches in Texas and other states are similar.

Bwana91 has the right to do this if he choses. I felt much the same way as he does when I hunted in the RSA on a couple of ranches. It wasn't until I experienced pure, free range hunting in Zim that I got a glimpse of what African hunting can truly be. Much like the differenct between hunting elk in a wilderness area in the Rockies versus a ranch hunt in Colorado.

It is not for me, but I am glad (sort of) that these shoots are available as I like to think it takes the pressure off lions in Nambia, Zim, Bots and Tanz.

Realistically, there is not a rhino hunt today that is not behind the fence, yet you see a lot of folks hunting them with bullets and darts.

I do not support the ethics of hunting behind the fence, but I am not going to condemn that man that does.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
If I´m not mistaken, Peter Harris was making no efforts to hide the fact he was offering the hunting of bred animals in recent adverts?

I have hunted with Peter twice, and would gladly do so again.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that he would NOT mislead a client of what he is getting into.

I once shot a lion and a lioness within 15 minutes of taking their tracks in Matetsi in Zimbabwe.

Another scenario:

Who is the true hunter?

An african resident hunting on a 10000ac fenced ranch by himself, tracking, stalking, killing and recovering his own impala or

someone walking behind the ph, trackers etc in the wilds of Zim untill they find him a big old buff to shoot.

It's not just about how difficult the hunt is (I had one of the easiest lion hunts I've ever heard about). A sportsman should care something about how the animal, especially an apex predator, lived his life before the hunter shows up.

A pen-raised lion that is acclimated to people and being fed by people, then turned loose a day or an hour before the "hunt" is not a game animal - it's a zoo animal. It's a lot different than a plainsgame animal that spends several years surviving on a big game ranch.

Bwana91, if you want to know why the 3 lions and 3 lionesses were so available and at such "super prices" look into the RSA game law change that took effect on June 1. There were lots of RSA lions on clearance sale in the last few months. You could have saved yourself some walking if you had just shot them in the pens where they spent their lives.

Just for the record I would love to have one of the critics here list the criteria for a "proper" lion hunt. Is use of bait kosher? How about calling? Can a vehicle be used for follow up? I keep reading what's wrong but not what's right. This gentleman had an enjoyable hunt at prices that are affordable. He did not ask for your opinions about the hunt he simply was describing his experience.

This sort of string really disappoints me. Why, because someone who obviously had a great hunt and throughly enjoyed themselves, takes the time to share his experience with a group of fellow hunters and what does he get in return, a reaction that would leave one thinking he had in some way insulted everyone's mother. Geez, if his trip is not your cup of tea, so be it, but why sap a guy of his excitement and joy over his trip. We would all be doing good to remember what our mothers did teach us, sometimes if you do not have something nice to say it is better to say nothing at all.

Bwana91, glad you had such a fun trip. I just hope my trip this year leaves me half as excited as you were.

To each his own, was his hunt and if he is happy it's ok with me

I understand all the others point of view (and I agree with them) but I am also not happy with people hunting young animals and what???, I try to talk to them why they must shoot only mature animals but I not attack them...

L

Twenty years ago would you ever have thought anybody would defend this type of hunt? Pen Raised, feed donkeys, released the day of the hunters arrival, It's all about Egos and Money!
There is no argument this type of hunt is still legal in a few third world countries. Let also not forget everybody involved in this type of active would be looking at long prison terms if this hunt was held in the USA!

Is there a future for Sportt hunting if we abandon all ethical and moral boundaries?

Don't feel sorry for me. I'm not so clueless as to be unable to distinguish between a wild lion hunt and a pen raised lion shoot. Perhaps you were lied to by the people orchestrating your lion "hunt" or perhaps its that you want to believe so badly that it was the real deal.

I'll quit attacking and condeming if you'll refrain from describing what you did as "our sport".

Sorry to hurt your feelings, but IMHO, hunters the world over need to stand up and condemn this kind of so-called "hunting" in no uncertain terms.

This kind of thing is a travesty - an ugly caricature of hunting. If there's no doubt of the outcome, if the animals are not wild and cannot escape, for lack of space and lack of their natural, instinctual fear of man, then nothing even close to hunting is going on.

This kind of thing will be used by anti-hunters to smear all hunters and hunting in general. Anyone who believes in the fair chase pursuit of free-ranging wild game should condemn this kind of canned hunting as improper and unethical.

And please don't even try to make it seem more acceptable by comparing it to the baiting of a wild lion. I have done that. For weeks. Unsuccessfully. Wild, free-ranging lion are incredibly smart and wary animals and baiting them is very difficult. A bit harder than shooting domesticated animals behind a fence, in any case.

And don't expect to be able to justify yourself by hiding behind the law. No one who is responsible or ethical lives his life by the "as long as it's legal" standard.

Half the catalog of human vice is legal somewhere, incuding alcohol, addictive drugs, gambling and prostitution. But that doesn't make any of it right or desirable.

The same is true of the shooting of tame, captive-bred, recently released zoo animals like these lion inside high fenced enclosures. There is no doubt that it's legal to do it in the RSA, but IMHO, and in that of many, many others who are not afraid to stand up and tell it like it is, it's not right, and it's certainly not hunting.

It's far more comparable to the slaughter of livestock or the shooting of pets.

Your opinion is just that, an opinion. The fact that it is your opinion does not make it right or form the basis for an all hunter call to action. Deer hunters in Texas hunt on game fenced ranches, deer hunters all over the country hunt in blinds at feeders, deer hunting ranches buy breeding stock for their ranches, etc. Are those practices "wrong"? One cannot confuse their belief with what is right or wrong. We all have to define what is right by us within the limits of the law -- which by the way in my case does not include hunting inside game fences or pen raised lions -- but that does not make others who chose to view the situation differently wrong.

I presume that if your beliefs are strongly held that you will not hunt in South Africa, period, since most ranches are all or partially game fenced. Are you condemning all game fenced ranch hunts in South Africa? All game fenced hunts regardless of species? Hunters will destroy their own tradition given enough time, bow hunters trash gun hunters, recurve bow hunters trash compound bow hunters, hunters that do not bait trash hunters that do bait, low fenced hunters trash high fence hunters, free range herd hunters trash managed herd hunters. Guess what, we all share a love of hunting and no matter what you think, that does not make what you think, right. Not sure exactly who gave you the moral authority to judge what constitutes a "travesity", an "ugly caricature", "improper and unethical" conduct.

I mean no offense, but your comments seem to reflect a view that you know what is right and the rest of us just do not get it. I beg to differ and believe we ought to all be respectful of the views of our fellow hunters. The institution of hunting is under attack from enough quarters without the hunters attacking themselves.

Here is my reply and it will be my last:

Not everything is relative. Not everything is a matter of opinion. There is a difference between right and wrong.

Standards of conduct, rules, ethical considerations, etc., are matters that differentiate the decent from the indecent, in many endeavors and walks of life, including hunting.

Moral authority? Yes, it does exist and it is not on the side of canned lion hunting. No one has a corner on the moral authority market, but this kind of "hunting" is way below the line of what ought to be permitted or condoned.

Still, some people clearly don't get it. I am baffled, truly flabbergasted, that anyone who has hunted big game, much less wild, free-ranging lion, on a fair chase basis, as I have, could possibly defend this kind of thing.

Are we that afraid of giving offense? My respect for so-called "fellow hunters" does not extend as far as that. The fact that this discussion is even necessary is an indictment in itself.

So where do you draw your moral line? Ever hunted in South Africa on a game fenced ranch? Is that morally okay? Right or wrong? Indecent? Apparently baiting is morally okay, right, decent, etc. Do you think everyone agrees with you that baiting is morally okay, right and decent? Guess again.

quote:

Standards of conduct, rules, ethical considerations, etc., are matters that differentiate the decent from the indecent, in many endeavors and walks of life, including hunting.

Like mjines say, baiting may seem indecent to many.There are hunting snobs and then there are the rest of us.

Folks,

Since I'm in the busines I should probably stay clear of this but what the heck. I think before we get all righteous and condemn bwana91 we should ask what is really wrong with his lion hunt other than it just doesn't turn some folks crank. I know Peter Harris and I doubt bwana91 and his partners did not know all the details of the hunt so there was no deceit. Also the hunt evidently was carried out in a legal manner. So where is the problem for all the people that seem to be so offended? Look guys! The antis don't like baiting, hunting with dogs, hunitng behind any kind of fence etc. etc. Wait a minute! Oh! That sounds like some contributors on AR. Think about it.

Anyway I just think we need to set our own goals for our personal hunting ethics and not worry about what other folks do as long as it is legal and above board. We need in this day and age all the members of shooting sports we can get so to condemn one person for a legal activity is counter productive in my mind.

Mark

I may be the black sheep of the AR family but I love to hunt walking, climbing or from a bakkie with spotligts, I bait, I trap, I have an old night vision device that makes chasing pigs in the crops much easier, etc, etc, etc.

I will not hunt a lion inside a fenced property because I associate lions with remote wilderness areas but if someone does enjoy it is his problem and I DON'T CARE what the antis have to say about that. That day I will quit hunting...

I believe that some animals deserve to be hunted in a given way but that is just MY opinion, nothing more. I don't have problem shooting a pig from a bakkie but not an elephant....a lion...mmmmmm..who knows....

Don't hijack this thread into an "what is ethical or not" contest, give the man a break. We are just having some fun, life is already to complicated to take an internet discusion too seriously...

Good hunting

L

i have no doubt this affair was fully legal-but i still insist this was shooting and not hunting. i have hunted twice on game farms in RSA but there is a huge difference between plains game loose on a ranch for years( and bolting at the sight of a Landcruiser) and an apex predator raised and fed in a pen, then turned loose on the ranch shortly before a "hunt". if that is anyone's idea of "lion hunting", more power to them. just not my idea of what dangerous game hunting is all about

Hey I thought of a easy way to settle this you two go back were the hunt was held the one against pay the trophy fee on the ones the hunter shoots. The hunter pays the trophy fee on the ones who are against it tracks down and pets on the head.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have hunted with Peter twice, and would gladly do so again.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that he would NOT mislead a client of what he is getting into.

I too will hunt again with Peter and Dion. Won't hesitate for a second.

And I do believe in their way of doing a hunt.

bwana91 said

quote:

When you are on 12,000 acres, it might as well be 120,000. We were on almost 19 square miles of property

and then this gem:

Graylake

quote:

Are you sure that that the LIONS did not know that they were in 12,000 acres. Maybe you should do a little bit of math on the land base.

Now the last time I checked into a section of land, it had 640 acres and measured 1 mile by 1 mile. So by dividing 640 into 12,000 acres you get 18.75 sections of land. Now unless something has changed that only gives a ranch 4 miles wide and not even 5 miles long.

who needs a little brushing up on the math?

quote:

Originally posted by farktoof:
bwana91 said

quote:

When you are on 12,000 acres, it might as well be 120,000. We were on almost 19 square miles of property

and then this gem:

Graylake

quote:

Are you sure that that the LIONS did not know that they were in 12,000 acres. Maybe you should do a little bit of math on the land base.

Now the last time I checked into a section of land, it had 640 acres and measured 1 mile by 1 mile. So by dividing 640 into 12,000 acres you get 18.75 sections of land. Now unless something has changed that only gives a ranch 4 miles wide and not even 5 miles long.

who needs a little brushing up on the math?

The math is correct.

A section is 640 acres and a section is one mile square. 12,000 acres is 18.75 sections of land. He said "4 miles wide and not even 5 miles long" The exact answer is 4 miles x 4.6875 miles, so he is correct.

For sure.BOTH are correct.

But why should bwana91 do some math?

Farktoof, Graylake's comments might have been related to the next line of Bwana91's post, where he said they split up and hunted different sections of the property and then he tracked a lioness for 10 miles. Pretty tough to track anything for 10 miles on a property less than 5 miles across in either direction without bumping into fences (or the other parties). Bumping into fences does not equate to "free ranging", and 12,000 acres is definitely a far cry from 120,000 acres. I think that is what does not "add up" not the comparison of 19 square miles to 18.75.

I am not one to be hyper-critical of someone else's activities if they are legal, and I don't want to rain on bwana91's trip...but I am not a fan of "put and take" operations being passed off as hunting, and I would suspect that with that many lions in an area that small, it is way more probable than not that the lions were pen raised and released for pursuit.

FWIW, the home range of lions apparently depend on food density, and can range from 20 square kms to 200 square kms.

Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Folks,

Since I'm in the busines I should probably stay clear of this but what the heck. I think before we get all righteous and condemn bwana91 we should ask what is really wrong with his lion hunt other than it just doesn't turn some folks crank. I know Peter Harris and I doubt bwana91 and his partners did not know all the details of the hunt so there was no deceit. Also the hunt evidently was carried out in a legal manner. So where is the problem for all the people that seem to be so offended? Look guys! The antis don't like baiting, hunting with dogs, hunitng behind any kind of fence etc. etc. Wait a minute! Oh! That sounds like some contributors on AR. Think about it.

Anyway I just think we need to set our own goals for our personal hunting ethics and not worry about what other folks do as long as it is legal and above board. We need in this day and age all the members of shooting sports we can get so to condemn one person for a legal activity is counter productive in my mind.

Mark

I concur 100% with Mark. I know and like Peter Harris, have hunted with him twice and he would not of misled our new member with regards to the nature of the hunt.

We all hunt for pleasure..........it is NOT necessary to hunt, to survive in our age, so if the guy did it legally, great. If it disturbs some people's sense of ethics then so be it. .........we are all an endangered species, as far as the antis are concerned.

Bwana91,
Did you see any other lions, other than the 6 killed, during the rest of your stay on that particular ranch?

Did Peter Harris explain the kind of lion hunt you would experience or was the option to shoot a lion offered once you were there?