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Originally posted by SHORTMAG:
How do you like that 480.Ruger of yours. Shortmag!!!

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The 480 is a real blast to shoot, and I like the 10" barrel for the weight/balance. I probably shoot it more than the 44 and 454 these days.

Hopefully, it will get more support and stand the test of time. Starline is making brass for it now, so that gives us another manufacturer for good quality brass for it. The Hornady 325 XTP is one heck of a bullet for it and is what I have been hunting with. Hopefully, somebody will come out with a good flat point bullet for it soon. The speer gold dot just didn't work out for me in this gun. As for its recoil, it is about the same as a hot 44 magnum load, but seems to push more than a hard snap which I prefer. Barrel rise is about the same. I was surprised that the deer aren't damaged by the heavy HP bullet, but it really doesn't do anymore damage than 240 grain HP's in my 44 Magnum. Strangely, the 454 Casull did the least damage to them with Swift 300 Grain HP bullets.

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Originally posted by SHORTMAG:
Gonhunting
I can not find "Contender/Eoncore laws" in my hunting regulation book.

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Originally posted by MSSmagnum:
If you purchased a NEW rifle and convert it into a handgun, then you obviously are in violation of the law. If not, how are you to prove it one way or the other?? Call the ATF with the serial number every time that you want to purchase a used frame???Once again, common sense has to dictate....

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Mike,

Greetings! Common sense may be a dictate for us, but how often would you accuse the BATF or Fed's of giving such a high place in their thinking and policy making?

Better to be safe than sorry.

one very interesting and entertaining thing to try is to call T/C and ask them if your frame's serial # is a rifle or pistol frame as it left the factory. If they tell you that they are all pistol frames, ask them what are the designations in their "bound book" on the frames of the ASSEMBLED 209x50 or 209x45 Encores, or the many ASSEMBLED Encore rifle/carbine's that they offer for sale?

That designation in the bound book, and the inittial assembled condition of the frame, is what determines what it is, and NOT what T/C would like you to think that it is

Stupid, yes, but we are dealing with a federal beurocracy, and CYA is one of the rules which one should follow in such situations

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Originally posted by Sean VHA #60013:
one very interesting and entertaining thing to try is to call T/C and ask them if your frame's serial # is a rifle or pistol frame as it left the factory.

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This goes completely against common sense...

Answer these....
* As a dealer, do you contact TC or the ATF regarding every used frame that enters your shop on trade?
* Why would the ATF be questioning you regarding your frame?
* You are innocent UNTIL proven guilty, they must PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt that YOU created a "short barreled rifle". Purchasing this gun from a dealer includes them in selling a "short barreled rifle". Which fish are they gonna fry? Do they have a case??

Bottom line, Common Sense MUST dictate. If you willing violate the law, you know you have. If you have purchased a used frame, you cannot be sure and the ATF will not be knocking down your door to find out......

Gotta be a better topic than this that we can "discuss".....

[ 02-12-2003, 06:32: Message edited by: MSSmagnum ]

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Originally posted by MSSmagnum:
[QUOTE]This goes completely against common sense...

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Of course it goes completely against common sense: no one ever said that it did not...it is the BATF after all, not Gordon Clark's Textbook on Logic

Just the mere fact that pistols and rifles are legally speaking treated so differantly, that there are actual laws against using the frame of the one sort to make the frame of the other sort, screams out against any and all common sense. Welcome to the wonderfull world of firearms regulations, where common sense must be left at the door

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Originally posted by MSSmagnum:
[QUOTE]Answer these....

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Originally posted by MSSmagnum:
[QUOTE]* As a dealer, do you contact TC or the ATF regarding every used frame that enters your shop on trade?

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I have actually tried both. For entertainment, you should too Neither were any help at all, so my policy [regulated by the BATF] as an FFL is that I log them as I recieve them, new or used. Yes, I could have mistakedly logged a used frame as a pistol that started out life as a rifle, but again, I log them in as they are sent to me by the sending FFL.

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Originally posted by MSSmagnum:
[QUOTE]* Why would the ATF be questioning you regarding your frame?

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Originally posted by MSSmagnum:
[QUOTE]* You are innocent UNTIL proven guilty, they must PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt that YOU created a "short barreled rifle".

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Which they could do [and do all the time on many sorts of fireams] by running a trace on the serial # of the frame, from T/C, to the first distributer, to the first dealer, and so on and so on. In these sort of situations, intent has very little to do with conviction. For example, just having the auto sear & an ar15, even if they are still in the wrappers and unassembled, means to the courts that you had the INTENT to assemble them.

The Handi Rifle is an excellent example and 'foil' for our purposes as well. If I started putting out aftermarket pistol grips and short barrels for the NEF Handi-rifles, even though they are just as mechanically easy to physically convert as a Contender (easier, as there isn�t even a hinge pin!) everyone would think me NUTS, as no one EVER questions the illegal nature such a conversion would have! Yet many still seem to develope a mental block regarding the SAME EXACT type of conversion on a Contender or Encore carbine/rifle when such was originally SOLD AS A CARBINE/RIFLE!

An Encore/Contender Carbine/Rifle/209 muzzle loader logged and sold **as a rifle** is legally NO DIFFERENT than an H&R/NEF Handi-Rifle, a Ruger #1, a Rem 700, a Savage 112, etc etc.
Do you really want to be at the mercy and benevolence of your friendly neighborhood government agency, and the level of common sense that they might choose to emply?

Consider this as well - According to the ATF- "Utilizing the receiver of an existing rifle for the purposes of manufacturing a handgun would constitute the making of a firearm as defined above. Individuals desiring to make such a firearm must first submit an ATF Form 1, Application To Make And Register a Firearm and pay the applicable $200 making tax."

Now, the only possible exception to this above is this qualification from the ATF:

According to the ATF- "If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver ***that had not previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle,*** a handgun could be made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. ***Verification must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish its authenticity.*** "

I maintain that a Contender/Encore ***Carbine/Rifle*** is NOT LEGALLY treated differently, as it is already assembled and sold AS AN Contender/Encore ***Carbine/Rifle*** and subject to the first clause quoted above. ONLY when a rifle ***TYPE*** reciever ***that had not previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle*** is in question, is it treated any differently, and then it does not matter whether it is a Contender/Encore OR Remington Bolt Action, Or a Ruger Falling Block, etc.

My point is addressing those frames ALREADY assembled and shipped AS rifles, which clearly falls into the category of the first quoted section from the ATF.

It is entirely feasable that the BATF could, per their regulations require ***Verification must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish its authenticity.***

Now try asking T/C to do that and see what they tell you

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Originally posted by MSSmagnum:
[QUOTE]Purchasing this gun from a dealer includes them in selling a "short barreled rifle". Which fish are they gonna fry? Do they have a case??

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Originally posted by MSSmagnum:
[QUOTE]Bottom line, Common Sense MUST dictate. If you willing violate the law, you know you have. If you have purchased a used frame, you cannot be sure and the ATF will not be knocking down your door to find out......Gotta be a better topic than this that we can "discuss".....

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Were he alive today, Al Goerge could tell you of the grief he went through when the BATF found out he had altered a Rem Rolling block rifle into his single shot pistol "Rolo." If momory serves correctly, he ended up paying a steep fine and also the tax to transform the rifle into the pistol, and this was the 1960's Fed he was dealing with. Imagine the exponential decrease we have had in the implementation of a "common sense" philosophy in our Federal Beurocracy?

My point is not how "likely" is this to happen, but the legality of the situation and possibility of it happening. Do you honestly think the anti's will bow to common sense if they got their dirty little hands into such a situation?

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Originally posted by MSSmagnum:
If we are to concern ourselves to the extent that you and Sean would have us, then ALL USED FRAMES ARE RIFLES ONLY! That is the only way we can possible stay within the confines of the law.......Must we beat this thing anymore?? I belive the thread that you make refernce to above has throughly thrashed this horse to small pieces.....

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Mike,

Greetings once again! Discussion such as this is not really beating a dead horse if it helps us to find sollutions to a known problem

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Originally posted by MSSmagnum:
Posession - The ATF will get NO WHERE with it. If you bought this gun from a dealer or an individual as a handgun, YOU did not assemble a short barreled rifle nor did you intend on building one. This totally negates a case against you. YOU PURCHASED A PISTOL. There is no court that will convict you, period.

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Originally posted by SHORTMAG:
I have Encore I"m going to turn it in to a hand gun and was thinking of going with the 454 Casull is that a good deer round,I have never shot one what is the recoil like?

Or should I go with diffrent caliber!!!!!!

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Sorry that we have hijacked your thread.

The 454 in an encore (or any handgun) is a handful. It would make a good deer round.

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Originally posted by Sean VHA #60013:
Discussion such as this is not really beating a dead horse if it helps us to find sollutions to a known problem

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Originally posted by GonHuntin:
I just wonder what you think we should do when a newbie asks about converting his new Encore rifle into a handgun? Should we, who know better, just let him do it and take the chance that he will get busted? Or, should we tell him it's against the law to do it and let him decide if he wants to take the risk?

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Think that i made myself perfectly clear in previous statesments above....

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By the way.......who is forcing you to read these threads?

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Originally posted by GonHuntin:
....I figure they would rather be scared than be Bubba's girlfriend......

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Originally posted by GonHuntin:
....and since it's quite obvious that you have none.......

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Originally posted by GonHuntin:
But, hey, don't listen to me, MSSMagnum and a few others say don't worry about it........they say I'm just trying to scare you.....

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Originally posted by LDHunter:
I'm pretty sure that TC registers them ALL as pistols when they manufacture them so it doesn't matter what we call them or what length barrels we put on them... Long as the barrels are as long as or longer than 16" when we have a rifle buttstock on them we're OK...

They're pistols when they're first manufactured and therefore they're always pistols.... Doesn't matter what the yellow sheet says or what we say....

So there.... <g>

$bob$

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