GeorgeS

Really, what irks you all so? Is it that you can't buy barrels, dies, or reamers stamped'JDJ' or 'Whisper' unless you go through SSK Industries (or the secondary market)?

I own an SSK 300 Whisper barrel. I bought it after owning a T/C 300 Whisper barrel. There is no comparison when it comes to the quality of the SSK barrel & the T/C Barrel. I didn't like the performance that I was getting in the T/C so I went to SSK. The SSK barrel is superior both in manufacturing & performance there is no doubt. I knew that The 300 Whisper was a Propertary cartridge when I bought it. It didn't slow me down at all, it was what I wanted.

My questions were looking for clarification on the term "Proprietary". What does it actually cover Name,Dimentions,reamers & companies?

For example if person X makes a developes a cartridge & goes the Whole route of a proprietary Round what does it actually cover. Everything associated with it or Name only?

Next if it covers the whole cartridge from soup to nuts. Name,dimentions, reamers & dies, do other companies Have to honor it as the same ?

I have seen a couple of places where cartridge A was attributed to person X & company with out a trade mark of any kind & elude to the cartridge being able to being made with generic company's dies. So is it Proprietary cartridge or not?

I there a listing of Proprietary cartridges any where as a reference or guide?

I don't have a problem with what is a particular persons property, I just want to know what it covers & to what extent it does so.

Rich Jake

Rich Jake,

I had an SSK .300 Whisper barrel, too. It evidenced MUCH higher quality than any T/C factory barrel made (and I think they make excellent barrels). SSK and T/C worked out a licensing deal so that T/C could chamber the .300 Whisper round. I think the dearth of commercially loaded ammunition inhibited its popularity.

If you check the latest edition of "Cartridges of the World", there is a section called 'Proprietary & Wildcat Cartridges' (or something close to that). That lists most of the proprietary rounds along with attribution (not always accurately).

Stush,

I said 'a storefront or real place of business'; that means there is a shop with its own address, C.O., commercial licenses, etc. SSK has a shop in Steubenville. I visited there, and while they don't operate as a store, you can buy their products in person.

It's true, JD does not operate a repair shop; he can customize or modify your gun or barrel, sell barrels, AR uppers, suppressors, or he can build you a new gun.

I never called anyone in particular a 'basement bomber'; a couple of those you named have shops; I don't know about Reeder, DVH, or Bellm. What I was referring to specifically, is some guy with a lathe and a reamer re-chambering barrels in 'knock offs' of SSK cartridges.

It's up to the buyer to find out whether they have the appropriate licenses and if they have liability insurance. If they are not willing to supply you with proof of some sort, you have to decide for yourself whether you still want to buy from them (at ANY price).

I understand your point about a gunsmith being no less legitimate for lack of a storefront; there are a lot of gifted gunsmiths who do jobs 'on the side', and their local zoning allows them to operate from their domicile. However, if they don't have liability insurance, they're not touching MY guns.

I choose to deal with established companies with a good reputation for high quality in both materials and workmanship, and with REASONABLE delivery times. If they get something wrong, I expect them to make it right NOW, not five months from now.

This is a relatively free market economy; the buyer has the final say in whether or not he buys and who he buys from.

George

I respect everyone's opinion - however this is getting silly. Everyone wants a bigger piece of the pie, claim to fame and glory - however, through the years there have been all kinds of changes to case size, shape and the like - all kinds of changes in twist, boring methods, and rifling techniques...if everyone that tried something new in this field laid exclusive claim to it, we would make little progress. I thank each and every one of these folks for their contribution - let's just get on with enjoying the progress we have made.

I am not a lawyer thank God so I would like to address this question from a logical perspective rather than a legal one.

If someone invents a truly new cartridge, that is one not based on anything else then they should have the right control what happens with that cartridge.

Wildcats in my humble opinion are not new cartridges and therefore no one individual or company should have the right to control them.

As far as I know all of the rounds from JDJ, Bellm, and Bullberry are based on cartridges from Remington and Winchester. All they are really doing is tweeking case lengths and angles to get better performance over the stock offerings. If I have my truck lowered and add racing wheels is it no longer a Toyota? No. Should I have the right to keep other people from doing the same? No.

As far as rights to the names JDJ, Bellm, or Bullberry. Who cares? A 358JDJ is a 444Marlin case necked down to fit a 35cal bullet and so is a 358Bellm. A 6mm Bullberry is a 30-30Win case necked down to 6mm and so is a 6mm Classic from VVG. They may have some slight dimensional differences, but they are basically the same thing.

Just my two cents.

Not that ANYONE on here would BS us, to be sure.

Mark Dumais

We're talking STRICTLY HYPOTHETICAL...

Mark Dumais

Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, is unintentional.

Mark Dumais

Dalton,

You make some good points regarding cartridge design. One thing that everyone needs to realize is that if you can think it up, it has been tried. I have an Enfield action that I am tinkering with. It�s a P14. I didn't want to change the bolt face, feed rails, etc., so I thought I'd dream up a wildcat based upon the 303 British. Problem is, somebody thought of them all before me! In the case of the 303, Elwood Epps wildcatted the round in every possible caliber and configuration you can imagine much the same way that Ackley did with the '06, etc. If you can imagine any bullet diameter being loaded into the parent case of your choosing, it has probably been tried. Even the new �short� and �ultra� magnum cartridges have already been widely wildcatted. Pick up some of the following, and you will be amazed at how many "new" or "proprietary" rounds have been tried before:

Cartridges of the World
The Handloader�s Manual of Cartridge Conversion
Wildcat Cartridges
Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders (Vol I & II)

Everything old is new again.

Stush

Including anybody pretending to be somebody else, who exists purely in cyberspace...

Mark Dumais

George S,
Quoting in part from one of your posts:
"You just know some shithead who used .300 Whisper ammo in a '.300 Whisper Rimmed' or .375JDJ data in a .375x.444 and injured himself when the barrel blew up would go after JD and SSK (which has liability insurance), not the 'basement bomber' who did the chambering. "

I see a real problem with your understanding of chambers and ammo here, but this is very characteristic of a particular group of people.

Skip personalities for a minute and think about what is actually going on with the chambers. What you said does not hold water.

.300 Whisper Rimmed is nothing more than a .300 Whisper chamber with a rim counterbore cut in the end of the barrel to accommodate ususally a .357 Maximum case rim. Could also be for a 5.6x50 R case rim, but Max is what is normally used.

In fact, I have been setting these up to shoot BOTH rimmed and rimless ammo for years, read, to shoot .300 Whisper ammo in the .300 Whisper rimmed chamber.

I cut .375x444 Marlin chambers with a Clymer .375 JDJ reamer obtained before JD put a stop to reamers and dies being sold on the open market. So, how do you figure the .375 data is going to blow up a .375x.444 Marlin barrel?

One of my counters to JD was that I stamp my name on every barrel I chamber and there is no way there will be any doubt as to whether I chambered it or SSK did. Note that I said SSK, since as I understand it, JD himself does none of the work.

I work by myself and do all of the work, including all the paper shuffling, packing, shipping, etc. I do it all.

Let's talk about licenses and the size of the shop, which you also made an issue of. My shop is 14'x8' as a number of posters on this forum will verify. I like to joke that my shop is so small I have to open the door to clean a barrel, which I do, by the way.

From what I see, by and large there many inverse relationships in life, one of which is the size of the operation in proportion to the quality of the work put out. From what I see in my area of expertise, the larger the operation the more pitiful the quality control.... and the designs for that matter.

Further to that, the larger the operation, the less you get for your money.

And, all too often, the more a man has to spend on his hobby, the less he understands it. He leans on someone else's smoke and mirrors who does not understand it either.

Another truism, as I see it, is that if it is popular, it is probably dead wrong due to the general makeup of mankind. If we were all on equal footing, they would not give I.Q. tests and grades in school, meaning, the vast majority of people are "average" or fall below certain levels of ability, intellect, and/or discernment.

Licenses. I live out in the county where it is legal to shoot, but have a few neighbors that object. So they tried to use the county to get back at me. No, I do not have employees, so I don't need a license. I don't have a sign out front, so no, I don't need a license. I don't conduct retail walk in sales from the house, so no I don't need a license. Get the picture? No, the camel's nose did not get under the tent, and I'll bet that just chaps your legalistic backside.

Based on what I quoted at the beginning of this post, it appears that whoever does work for you needs to protect himself from you, the customer.
I fail to understand that product liability is to benefit the consumer. You pay for it. To me it largely means that if the company's workers get sloppy or the management has poor quality control assurances in place, which is RAMPANT in the industry, there is money there to make you go away, perhaps less some eyes, hands, facial features, etc. But you will have your blessed money. I'm so glad that makes you all warm and fuzzy in your delusion.

Having millions of dollars available does two things. One it makes liars and criminals (if they get caught) out of people who are all too eager to defraud the insurance company in order to strap their OWN mistakes on the insurance company, and believe me, I have seen Browning get it first hand when a guy grabbed the wrong powder and blew his rifle up. This man was a lying sack of you-know-what.

Then, two, there are always law firms in the food chain ready to get a big, big bite of those millions that the consumers paid in the higher prices for the goods and services they got. Oh, excuse me, like government entitlements, it comes from thin air. No one pays for it. The company is SO nice to provide it. Yeah. Right.

The whole system, to me, is corrupt, and you buy into it. You support it. What is the saying about "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem?"

If you had any doubts about why I have alienated all the others in the TC related industry, they should be dispelled now.

Doing a little reflecting this morning, I see just plain niggardly practices from top to bottom in "the trade" from TC on down through the various custom shops and most of the people retailing TC products. Therefore, I try my level best to do better than what I see around me in the trade.

I don't knowingly suck up to institutions or individuals that don't put the consumer first. I have learned a thing or two in 23 years, and one of the things I have learned is a deep seated appreciation of the people I have been privileged to serve during this time. They are not someone to be taken advantage of or taken lightly. They are not there just to make me fat. They are my friends, and I seriously doubt I will ever call you friend.

Mike, THE Heretic.

I am recurrently entertained by this recurring discussion of product liability insurance and whether if a given shop has such, that this factor should steer us towards a particular shop or not.

One thing to remember with product liability insurance is this: It is meant to cover the **insured**, NOT the plaintiff. If you blow up an SSK barrel, they are not simply going to assess the damage to both product and you, and cut you a nice compensation check. In order to even begin to approach a liability policy for damages, you must hire lawyers and SUE them and/or the insurance company to prove your case that it was their product at fault and not your own stupidity and neglegence, and as has already been discussed, anyone�s load data is given out to use with the strong disclaimer that you are using such data �at your own risk.�

Try to prove in a court of law that you went precisely by the stated load data, used the RIGHt powder and componants, sized the cases properly, and your barrel came unglued strictly due to some maker's defect and not rather due to your own loading practises. Hire metallurgists to examine and defend your claim that it was really a defective barrel at fault. Hope that they are more convincing than the insured�s expert metallurgists and expert testimony. See where this is going?

Also, the "Event Clause" found in most product liability insurance typically restricts the type of events giving rise to liability under the Policy, to physical events that are PROVABLY the fault of the manufacturer, limiting the scope of indemnity to liability relating to physical loss or damage from such PROVEN causes. Those products liability policies which indemnify insured�s against liability �in respect of� physical damage, will only cover liability arising directly from that damage.

In most cases that I have read about, liability which arises **indirectly** will not be covered even if it would not have arisen if the physical damage had not first occurred. This is important to consider! What this means is that faults in the metal itself, or in reloading componants, are not the Insured�s liability if he uses a vendor to supply him with the metal, let�s say Shilen, to supply the metal. Then you must go after Shilen, and we begin a seemingly endless maze of regressing suppliers and �whose really at fault� searches. Was the metal damaged as a result of the process, or the producer? Many factors to consider just in this one situation, not counting componants, processes, tooling used, etc. Consider this applied to every material, tool etc used in the manufacturing process. Consider this applied to every componant used in your reloading and the tooling and processes to make such componants in addition to the issue of the barrel itself. Can we appreciate how complex such things get?

As in this case of custom barrels, this **indirect liability** has the potential to be substantial. Therefore, it is important for consumers to understand the scope of such insurance. Do some research. Look into what is ACTUALLY covered by such insurance [these policies are VERY specific about exactly what they cover, and what they do not]. Become familiar with the many different shades of product liability insurance.

VERY IMPORTANT: Ask someone who indicates to you that because they are covered by such a policy that you are therefore safer spending your money with them, to SHOW YOU the policy and language of the draft that you may know exactly what is being claimed.

Who is the insurance provider?

What specific kinds of liability are covered?

What cases have ever been brought in suit against the insured, and in how many instances were benefits and damages actually paid to the plaintiff? Does the providor have a history of paying such claims, or draging them through court and throwing all expense into "outspending" the plaintiff on legal counsel?

If the existence of product liability insurance is being used as an advertising mechanism to sell a product, then all these questions are fair game and must be satisfied before such insurance can be said to be a value to the customer RATHER THAN what such policies usually are: solely a protection for the INSURED.

[ 08-28-2002, 13:00: Message edited by: Sean HHI #7364 ]

Sean,
You must have run out of turtles to blast out of the water. Instead you have blasted a bunch of horse sh_ _ and cow patties out of the water with the above post.

VERY well stated.

Let's add to this the time factor in actually receiving the first dollar of a claim if automobile accidents are any example. One that comes immediately to mind is Don Bower's whose accident in Tulsa was in '99. Here we are 3 years later and no settlement is forth coming after being rear ended.

Insurance is not some entitlement, as you stated, and is hardly any comfort to anyone with some semblance of independent, rational thinking. Just because SSK pulls enough money from customers to have bragging rights to having paid a healthy insurance premium sure seems a shallow motivation to choose an SSK barrel over another supplier.

Mike

Mike,

I can't agree with you more. My dad has been doing the rebluing work for a half a dozen shops in western PA for years. I honestly can't think of one that carries a product liability policy. Some are operations with storefronts and some are in garages or basements. All of them do good work. I wouldn't hesitate to have any of them do chamber work for me. The fact that they don't have the appropriate insurance would never enter into my choice to go there.

Hey guys, It's really interesting the highly unpredictable turns these threads frequently take. Who'd ever thought this thread would end up discussing liability insurance?! Anyway, I have a few brief questions and comments. Does anyone really think the ABSENCE of liability insurance on the manufacturers part protects the manufacturer from being sued? GeorgeS, your comments seem to be suggesting this, are they not? You seem to advocate doing business only w/ gunsmiths w/ insurance, I suppose because if an injury occurred to the gun owner, he would not be able to sue the uninsured gunsmith, correct? If anyone thinks NOT HAVING liability insurance will keep one from being sued, just ask yourself why it is that in a high exposure (liability wise)profession like medicine, ANY physician would have liability insurance. If a physician doesn't want to get sued, just don't carry the insurance, right? Wrong.... A physician w/o liability insurance can still get sued. All the insurance does is protect him from directly paying the costs of defense and protect him from losing his "worldly collections" to the plaintiff's lawyer. Gary T.

[ 08-29-2002, 02:17: Message edited by: Gary T ]

Hey all,

I was perusing the Hodgdon #27 Manual for some 260 Remington (or is that 260 Carmichael?) loads when I happened to look at their write up for the 375 JDJ. Allow me to quote:

"...the 375 JDJ is just about the finest single shot, big game cartidge ever devised. Interestingly, it is the same case design Ken Waters called the 375 Express a few years before J.D. Jones called it the 375 JDJ."

Maybe JD needs to pony up some royalties to Ken? So much for proprietary cartridges. Food for thought.

On the subject of "basement bombers," this brings to mind a very good friend of mine and one of the finest gunsmiths in the country, who btw does excellent chamber and barrel work as well as working very closely with local police. He is one of the very very few people I have never heard any complaints or disparaging remarks about. He is simply "sterling" as a gunsmith and as a person. His name is Guy Malmborg in Salt Lake City. His office and sales counter is the kitchen counter, next to the microwave and coffee maker. When he turns to the right and takes about 3 steps, guess where he goes. Straight to the BASEMENT where he himself does the work, not some hourly employee or apprentice with little on the line but this week's pay check.

I would ten times over rather have someone like Guy IN HIS BASEMENT doing work for me, and he has btw, than I would SSK or any other large shop I have any knowledge of. And, yes, Guy has done work for me personally, IN HIS BASEMENT! Outstanding work, I must add. In other words, he is the gunsmith's gunsmith.

Granted, there are some real idiots working on guns, but to even begin to imply that small sole proprietorships should be avoided in favor of something like SSK is totally inane.

Then to pander to a business that rides rough shod on others..... ? Where is critical thinking? Where are ethics? Where are traditions? Where are values? Worse, just where are we headed with this kind of example and "leadership" in the firearms trades?

Mike