Question: Should designers/promoters of new cartridges have a strangle hold on the reamers, dies, etc... for the cartridge they develop?

Yes or No........

No I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that was the arguement that Mike spoke of with the two companies who decided to go a long with it. Besides whats to stop anyone from making a slight variation so it isn't the propriety round anymore.For example what if I took the 308 die necked down the 444 Marlin shell to the same exact measurement as the 309 JDJ& called it the 308 Jake because of the different shoulder angle?
Can JD contend that I stole his design &/or idea. I don't think so. I think that This is a bunch of bull.
Rich Jake

As in JDJ or Lazaroni?
Any guy that knows how to run a lathe could copy them and call it something else
The one thing I've always enjoyed and respected about the shooting world is the open-ness of it, everyone has ALWAYS helped everyone else along, whether it be load development, cartridge non'clemature, or shooting/ hunting skills This info has always been passed along freely, its how this sport grows and remains FREE, when someone wants to hold all that for them self for profit or ego, well gentlemen, I just don't have any space for folks like that.
Just my nickles worth
Wes

Nope. With the following possible/probable exceptions.

1.) the "WizBang" name they come up with for it.
2.) "proprietary" process to make the blame thing. Something along the line of some of the special protective coatings some folks put on guns to hide their BEAUTIFUL BLUE NATURAL, GOD MADE, NON-ADULTERATED COLOR. (Now if THAT don't start a flame war NOTHING will.) :-)

steve

Yes if it is really theirs.......Maybe....But in JD's case......these are mostly old Ackley rounds or rounds built by others as wildcats.
Amazing how a .243 or 357mag..can have dies built by everyone..But JD Crap is like GOD???
NO.......
Fireball

At the time I got my letter from JD threatening to litigate if I did not stop chambering for HIS proprietary rounds, JD's defense in our phone conversation that followed focused on "confusion in the market place." That is about the only thing I remember that amounted to anything. He was also relying on the "looks like, feels like" legal principles that were being applied in the computer industry.

Other than that, I don't recall if he had any other arguing points in defense of his position. The only thing he had going for him is the cost of defending against him, aka, maliscious prosecution or simply bullying via the legal system.

Traditionally chambers, reamers, dies, etc. have been public domain, freely shared by all in the industry, with very, very few exceptions. Some of the Brit. gunmakers may have had something going with their "proporietary" cartridges, but I do not know if or how they defended their positions.

The one thing that still chaps my back side is the fact that JD was threatening to sue me for chambering specifically for .375 JDJ, for which I had been buying RCBS dies marked .375 JDJ for quite a few years and cutting the chambers with a Clymer reamer clearly marked .375 JDJ.... which btw cut too big to suit me at the web and I reduced the diameter so it would not bulge cases badly) while at the same time chambering for .309 JDJ which is the exact same as the .30x.444 Marlin cartridge in P.O. Ackley's books from about 1962.... 5 years before the Contender was even introduces and many years before JD kyped it and named it .309 JDJ. AND, he was chambering for quite a few of the Ackley Improved rounds.

My retort to JD was that I had written permission to use the Ackley name in conjuction with my name, he did not. His reply was, "Well, I'm taking them out of my lists." And mine was, I don't care whether you do or not. I will chamber for any cartridge I like.... and I still do, including .375 JDJ, .358 JDJ (which also came from Ackley's books) and on occasion, .309 JDJ.

But since he may in fact have taken the necessary steps to copyright his cartridge names, I no longer stamp things "JDJ."

To me it is as much a matter of how he did it as what he did. He could have called me and had a little heart to heart discussion, which I might well have not bought. Or, IF there had been some mutual respect as there was with Elgin Gates when things like this arose, I might well have respectfully complied as I did with Elgin. But to have the gall to threaten to sue me on the one hand while at the same time chambering for rounds taken directly from my predecessor who gave me written permission to use his name along with instructions as to how he wanted it used..... folks, this speaks volumes about a person, to my way of thinking.

So yes, it is a personal issue as well as a business practice issue.

My feelings are that things should be named as they are commonly known. To do otherwise cause a different kind of confusion in the market place than what JD was concerned about. I assume he was concerned about folks thinking his shop did the work when perhaps someone else had.

I should add that I NEVER marked anything JDJ without also having my "Bellm" stamped on the left side of the lug. So his "confusion in the market place" to me does not hold water.

Talk about confusion in the market place, .309 JDJ is not using .309" bullets, but standard .308" bullets. Ditto for .226 JDJ, which is still .224," not .226." Stop and think about this one.... .227" and .228" bullets are still made and sold for the old .22 Savage Hi-Power. What happens when some nimrod things to himself ".226?" Gee, .227 is a lot closer to the right size than .224." I doubt it has happened, but the potential for confusion is written all over it.

What chapped me also was the fact that RCBS and Clymer caved in to him, either as a result of some deal behind the scenes or rattling the legal saber like he did with me. These companies want to sell dies and reamers, and know they will sell them regardless of who buys them. I can only surmise they saw no point in having to resolve a dispute in the court system.... another case of rattling the saber maybe. I really don't know. I did my level best to find out what happened to make these companies cave in like that, but their lips were sealed. Perhaps someone like Dave Manson who no longer works for Clymer might be more open now.

Where JD has most of these companies over a barrel is in regard to not putting out drawings. I went the rounds with Richard Beebe, Redding dies, about it and he was adament that he had to have an authorized drawing or he simply would not make the dies. Reamer companies and die companies live and breath based on drawings they can fall back on to support the dimensions they use.

Ackley put out dimensions for his rounds way back when. Thus the Ackley designs are commonly used by gunsmiths, die, and reamer companies all the time. Now we can even add TC to the lot since they are one of the few manufacturers chambering for some of the Ackley rounds, which makes me sick to think about how they go about chambering.

From that standpoint, I can perhaps sympathize with JD's wanting to control the chambers, dies, and reamers. But there is no legal basis to stop them, nor is there any legal basis to stop me or anyone else chambering for any old cartridge they want to at any old time they feel like it.

I have always cut closer tolerance versions of the JDJ chambers and feel I do a better job than SSK does.

As I see it, the only thing JD has going for him is the fact that he stocks the dies and puts out reloading data.

Take the .300 x.221 Fireball. If someone made quality barrels at a competetive price, stocked the dies, and put out their own data, there is no reason why the .300x.221 Fireball couldn't replace the .300 Whisper.

Matter of fact, due to an error very similar to the one I made in the infamous Graybeard .35 Rem. barrel, I intend sometime early next year at the latest to have a run of .30x.221 Fireball IMPROVED dies made up. This will give a bit more capacity and a decent shoulder to headspace on, like it should have been made in the first place!

I am fishing in the back of my mind for reasons why you should take a stand one way or the other in regard to cartridges and dies being public domain. Best arguement I can field is simply "LIBERTY," FREEDOM OF CHOICE.

You can buy your .223 Rem.s and .30/06s from whatever manufacturer you want, so why shouldn't you also be able to buy .308 Bellm or .309 JDJ from whomever you want? To have the opposite situation imposed on you is a restraint of trade, it would seem to me.

It would be interesting to see what the courts would do with it, but I doubt anyone will every press it. Thus you are stuck with the status quo.

Mike

I intend sometime early next year at the latest to have a run of .30x.221 Fireball IMPROVED dies made up. This will give a bit more capacity and a decent shoulder to headspace on, like it should have been made in the first place!

Mike
Sometimes I can't do the things that I would like due to Finances,but I am really interested in this project. I defintely don't want to miss this one. Please keep me in mind for it.
Rich Jake

No.

Most inventor's of new cartridges depend on other people chambering for them - if nobody makes guns that shoot 'em their chances of commercial success are nil and they might as well be naming stars.

It's a little bit hard to make evolutionary progress, like everything in the gun industry has been done for the last several hundred years, when somebody stakes out proprietary rights to a chunk of the collective genome, as it were. This is no more legitimate than Spain claiming North America, irrespective of the fact that a lot of other people were there first.

Come to think of it, if you DO name a star, can you copyright the name and then license people to look at it and/or sue people who look at it without a license?

Mark Dumais

Mark, Couldnt agree more!!

I say yes. If a person developes a cartridge. Pays money to have a die manufactore make dies to his specs and with his name[ at great cost to the indidual]. Gets a contract that says they won't sell them to anyone but him. I don't see the problem. I see posts where a given person would make there own cartridge design if it was not so exspencive for a run of dies. Someone had to pay the cost up front to manufactor for those dies, why shouldent they have control of them. That dose not stop you from making your own set of dies and working up loads for the same basic cartrige only a little different and calling it your own. Get a contact with the die company to produce x-amount of said dies, pay up front for them and take the risk of selling them or maybe storing them for ever. But that would be to exspensive. Some one paid for that rite. Lone Hunter

As I recall many years ago there was a great furor over the .22/250 Varminter. One of the clowns who dreamed up this round patented or copy righted (can't recall which) the cartridge.

His attempt to keep a stranglehold on this cartridge delayed the production of this as a factory round for many years. I think in the end a shoulder angle or something was changed very slightly and the term "Varminter" was dropped and the cartridge came out anyway.

There really is no practical way to lock in a cartridge as MINE and it's stupid to try. Slight modifications can be made to anything and come up with a "new" cartridge. Instead, people should be flattered that shooters want THEIR cartridge. The only way to immortality is down that road. Look at Ackley. I believe he GAVE away the use of everything he ever did and today he is a firearms legend. All he ever asked is give credit where it's due.

You don't have to buy from them.Make your own. Lone Hunter

IF you have the brains to do it first, go for it.

[ 08-27-2002, 04:49: Message edited by: JD HHI 6092 ]

I had occasion to speak to JD recently about cartridge length on the Whisper. He gave me the number but asked what I was shooting, I told him 3 TC's in Whisper as well as a Bond XP in 308 Whisper and a BF in 300WR (Whisper Rimmed). To which he replied "f*****g counterfeits" and slammed the phone in my ear .

That's 2 for 2 in discussions with him.

JD is JD, that's why I gave up my membership in HHI

Mr. DW

Poll????? This is a witch hunt....not a poll!

Look at the opening question...."stranglehold"???

Yep, that's real objective!

[ 08-26-2002, 06:06: Message edited by: GonHuntin ]

Mike

I guess my answer to your question would be:

it depends.......

In the situation with SSK, where JD didn't "invent" many of the JDJ cartridges, but instead, used Ackley's work in Contender barrels....

then my answer would be NO.....

In other cases........where someone spent the time to develop a cartridge from the ground up, then, YES, I think that person should be able to control who uses his invention....simply so that he will get paid for all his work and investment!!!

[ 08-26-2002, 17:07: Message edited by: GonHuntin ]

If they choose to, why not? Remember, this is a country where exclusivity is a selling point.

There are no 'new' cartridges; all of them are based on something else (even Lazzeroni cartridges are eerily similar to the .404 Jeffery case) . If you improve an existing design, you can still register a patent for it without paying royalties to the inventor of the original product.

If JD registers a copyright and negotiates a contract with die and reamer manufacturers restricting distribution, who is anyone to force him to permit 'knock offs'?
If another manufacturer releases a round to the industry, that's their prerogative, not a requirement.

The fact remains that JD does a huge amount of load development, testing, and hunting with the rounds he markets. None of the other manufacturers do so. He remains 'The MAN' when it comes to rounds (and barrels) for hunting with handguns).

You don't have to like the guy, and you don't have to buy his products. But don't expect a right to his intellectual property without paying for it.

George
P.S. If you think JD plays rough, open a business with 'Mc' in the name and see if you don't get a letter from McDonald's Corportation!

OK what I'd like to know is this. I know that the Whisper Series belongs to JD Jones. I don't want to get into the he didn't really invent the cartridge thing. There are several other cartridges that are credited to JD Jones in articles. How do I as a consumer know which ones are exclusive property of him by way of patent & ones that are not. I can think of at least two articles about catridges which were developed by JD & SSK But make no mention of a trademark or Patent on the design. SO does that mean just because a magazine wrote an Article that it is JD's property Solely? If it is a persons property that's fine, but how do you confirm that? That's what I'd like to know.
Rich Jake

Goerge
No B.S.ing around is that the only way to know?
Rich Jake

[ 08-26-2002, 22:39: Message edited by: Rich Jake ]

I agree with GeorgeS. Despite all you consumers wanting the best deal you can get, if someone wants to put his name to a cartridge with specific dimensions that is fine. Nothing keeps anyone else from making a round with similar or the same dimensions and calling it something else. Proprietary is nothing more than the name.
JD can have no real grief with those that chamber a .30X444 with a 40 degree shoulder (by whatever other name), but has the right to be frosted if you call it a .309 JDJ or use dies so stamped rather than going the more expensive custom route. The only real value of his proprietary chamberings is the load data developed for them by scientific means, such as the Hornady data for several of his rounds. But I consider this an important service, so I don't begrudge his attempting to protect his work product. That is capitalism.
That being said, I would hope that over time (or perhaps when he dies), he will make arrangements for these chamberings to be released for anyone to chamber.
P.S. I note that JD came forth with his explanation why he does not do rechambers of the .375 JDJ in the latest issue of Sixgunner - he says he had "undesireable performance factors" in his early testing - and implies but does not actually state it is a matter of pressures and safety. While his statements may be truthful literally, they are curious in their vagueness.
BTW Mike, I agree that for the Contender the .30X221 Improved makes more sense than the current design, but to JDs credit, the taper of the case no doubt makes it more reliable for auto use in AR 15s.

Makes me think of the .22Boz Company makes a round... hypes the hell out of it, selling it as the greatest round ever made. Then refused to give oout any real info on it, or sell it to non miltary customers. Who cared? Nobody.

"What if they designed a cartridge and nobody cared?"

Conversely.....

If you were to develop a product, release it to the market place you would...

- sell you own product based on it merits, not "exclusivity"
- open the product to powder mfg's (ok, most are repackagers) for additional pressure testing
- gain greater respect from the shooting community for "sharing" your work (which does translate to more sales, i.e. P.O. Ackley, etc...)
- "factory" brass
- etc, etc.... i can go on and on....

Mike, I think JD Jones has the credentials to get the powder companies to do testing for him. Just about anyone else would fall into cas's point of who would care. So JD is doing a service by promoting these rounds because just about no one else would be able to get it done. Grouse about him as you will, but he is a valuable part of the TC community and for that I give him credit.

I have read all the posts about this subject and I can't help but laugh. I keep thinking of the Seinfeld episode - better be nice or "no soup for you." JD makes good soup, and if you want some you'd better follow the rules. Heh, heh.

Fireball - tell us how you really feel buddy.
HAHAHAHA

steve

Hey guys, An interesting topic w/ a wide range of interesting opinions. A couple of observations, then some comments:
1. From what I understand, I don't believe JD actually has any "patents" on his rounds. I believe his rounds are "proprietary" solely because the manufacturers of reamers and dies have agreed to it. That raises an interesting question: What if you had a "proprietary" round and no reamer/die manufacturers came?
2. Regarding the "Whisper" series, what sets it apart is not so much whether it is "new" or not (as already mentioned, doesn't seem like there's really anything "new" in cartridge development), but the fact that JD has a trademark on the name. As I mentioned in the other post, I have a 300/221 barrel from VVCG that uses "300 Whisper" brass and dies from SSK, although Redding also makes 300/221 dies... Interesting....
Comments:
1. Don't guess I'd have a problem w/ someone having a "proprietary" round, if it was SOOOO much different from other available rounds that the developer actually had a patent on it. I don't put much into the "intellectual property" thought unless someone's actually developed something that's really different. Well developed loads is a definite selling point, but I think the buyer pays the price for it w/ the barrel purchase. I don't think having done load development by itself is reason enough to make a round "proprietary."
2. When you stop and think about it, one by product of the "proprietary" round is that it takes some of the emphasis on barrel purchase off the merits of gunsmithing, price, and availability. In other words, if you want a JDJ round and the dies that go w/ it, you can get it only from SSK. This is not a knock on SSK as they've done very good work on both my barrels; but, if you want a non-proprietary round, you've got many different gunsmiths to choose from, including SSK; hence, the decision making process ends up concentrating more on gunsmithing, price, and availabitlity.
3. Speaking of the patent process, does anyone know how long a developer has exclusive rights to a product he has obtained a patent on? In pharmaceuticals, the drug company has exclusive rights to the product for 17 years, commencing from the time they start development on the product. I guess "proprietary" rights are lifelong, or as long as the reamer/die manufacturers agree to it?
4. None of my comments are meant to "bashing" anyone. I realize everyone has to make a living and a great deal of the "proprietary" round business is a combination of making a living and marketing.
Gary T.

WOW.This guy JD sounds like that Nazi on the BIG POND forum.Play along WITH "the program",or it's "no soup for you".Cheers fella's.

[ 08-28-2002, 15:37: Message edited by: small fish ]

If a patent was applied for before June of 1995, term is 17 years from the date of grant or 20 years from the initial application date, whichever is longer. If applied for after June 8th of 1995, term is 20 years from the initial/earliest filing date of application.

FWIW,

I'm not sure I truly see what the problem is here. Mike Bellm obviously has issues with JD on a professional level. Those are none of my business as far as I'm concerned. Whether I agree with one or the other is irrelevant. Those differences are theirs to work out. The only voice I have in the matter is choosing where to spend my money.

With regard to JD, I have often thought about a barrel from him. However, every time that I am about to get one, one of these "JD Sucks" threads appears. I have spoken to JD twice via phone or email when I was contemplating a purchase, and both times he was a little "rough around the edges". Not enough so to make me go elsewhere, but that in conjunction with the online postings about him pushed me to Mike Bellm, Fox Ridge, Ed's TC, etc. That’s not to mention VV or Bullberry or Van Horn's etc.

My point is, if you don't like JD - don't buy from him. There are alternatives available. I wanted a 375X444. I bought a barrel from Ed's, had Bellm do the rechamber, and bought the dies from CH4D. No problems whatsoever. My barrel shoots as well as any of JDs that I have seen.

I am currently thinking about a 300X221. I can go to JD for it, and I may. Although it is not likely given what has been written about him here and in other forums. If I want the barrel though, all I have to do is call VV or whoever and order a set from dies from Redding. End of story.

JD obviously DOES NOT hold patents on cartridge design. He may own copyrights on the naming, but anyone can see that most, if not all, of his designs were tried by others years before.

So, other than complaining about JDJ, what is this thread about? This is not directed at anyone in particular, but I really don’t see the point to continuing the discussion.

I agree with GonHuntin, JD, and Stush.

Well, I now have my own proprietary cartridge; the .30 Rezdog Ramjet Special -- it's made by necking the .32 Winchester Special down to .30 caliber with no other changes. . Copy that and I'll sue you back into the stone age. Didn't Weatherby enjoy exclusive rights on their cartridges for many years? Now that others are offering them I think sales have skyrocketed.

A consensus here doesn't mean a thing. No one here has created/tested/developed/marketed any cartridges. We're consumers of product. You may WANT something for free, but it's not always available. You can either pay the seller's price or move on...

Really, what irks you all so? Is it that you can't buy barrels, dies, or reamers stamped'JDJ' or 'Whisper' unless you go through SSK Industries (or the secondary market)?

Is it that you expect a manufacturer to help others with competing products/services take business away from him? Or to help someone who has bought someone else's product get it working correctly?

Or is it that JD didn't suck up to you in order to make a sale?

If you want a custom barrel in a non-SAAMI cartridge quickly, who can do it faster than SSK? Bullberry has a 5 month wait; DVH is 2-3 months; what is VVGC's turnaround time?

JD used to freely distribute his load data; then, when he found that the data was being used in barrels chambered for rounds like his (but not using the same barrel steels, reamers, dies, etc.), he stopped doing so out of liability concerns.

You just know some shithead who used .300 Whisper ammo in a '.300 Whisper Rimmed' or .375JDJ data in a .375x.444 and injured himself when the barrel blew up would go after JD and SSK (which has liability insurance), not the 'basement bomber' who did the chambering.

The man has a business to protect. He's not forcing ANYONE to buy from him. He also doesn't put up with liars, bullshitters, and people who think they know more about his products than he does.

George