Reposted from another forum by request:

I was looking at the barrel and locking mechanism of my Encore the other day and it seemed to be a very simple design. A block with two machined slots, welded to the bottom of the barrel with three holes located for retaining pins and frame alignment.

My questions are:

1. Has any one ever tried to make a Contender/Encore barrel by welding one of these blocks to a blank?

2. Does anyone sell these blocks?

3. Has anyone tried to make one of these blocks? (the design looks pretty simple)

It seems like this process would be much easier than threading and chambering a barrel for a bolt gun. (This should only require owning a welder Vs. owning a lathe)

When reading these forums there are a number of people who have taken a shot at doing their own barrels for bolt guns. How about it single shot forum? Any experiences to share?

One of the problems I face making barrels is that I work alone and must rely on outside sources for my barrel lugs.

At the best, one person does not consume enough lugs to keep it interesting to another machine shop. Thus I am considering selling lugs.

However, for this to be viable, one must have either a mill or fixtures for locating the forend screw holes and the scope base holes. It is not as simple as just running a bead on both sides of a lug.

Also, until recently, I had always had the hinge pin hole drilled and the locking bolt slot cut AFTER the lug was welded on. This then referenced these two critical points off of the barrel.

However, what I am finding with fully machined Contender lugs is that the locking bolt slot gets squeezed shut some at the breech end and must be either carefully filed out (too much work and not very precise) or milled out.

Whether this can be circumvented or not remains to be seen. I know that others weld fully finished lugs onto barrels, but to date, I have not found a way around having to recut the slots.

I had a discussion today with a shop in regard to making fixtures to sell for making Contender and Encore barrels. While the price would be rather high, over $1k, it would not take many barrels to recoup one's investment.

There are a lot of good rifle barrels floating around that can readily be made into TC barrels. Often these can be picked up for little or nothing. Or if one wanted to go "top drawer" making your own barrels would take much of the bite out of it when a Hart blank alone approaches $300.

To my heretical way of thinking, the whole Contender and Encore barrel situation is just wrong.

NEF sells a complete gun buttstock and all for no more than TC charges for a barrel alone, while the TC barrel is essentially the same conceptually in design. Then if you get the TC barrel, there have been so many really dumb chamber designs and lack of quality control at TC that the price of a factory barrel is often something of a ripoff.

So you go to the aftermarket boys for better workmanship, which all too often is still not there inspite of prices exceeding $300, just for the barrel alone.

There has to be a better way, and fixtures are what separate those that make Contender and Encore barrels from those that don't. There are a LOT of good riflesmiths around this country who would make some TC barrels IF they had the lugs, and IF they had the fixtures.

Without fixtures, you can do all the drilling and tapping and cutting forend dovetails ok if you have a mill. But if you don't, then at least for Encores, the forend drilling and tapping can be done on a drill press with fixtures.

For cutting the extractor slots, push come to shove, one could whittle it out with a hand grinder, but what I have done for years is use a Palmgren vise on the lathe cross feed to hold the barrel while milling the slot with an end mill driven in the chuck, again within the realm of the average riflesmith's capabilities.

It is a bit more entailed than first meets the eye, but I feel you are on the right track suggesting the means of making barrels should be more universally available.

Mike Bellm

Mike,

Thank you very much for answering my post.

I have one additional question stemming from the responses I received on the Gunsmithing forum.

Mr. Belk indicated that a major obstacle that he and other gunsmiths have faced is the process of welding the block onto the barrel without ruining the barrel in the process.

�I've never looked at the Encore but TC used to use a robot run electron beam welder for the Contenders. Lathes are about one percent the cost of such a beast.

When you use an arc of any kind you'll have a serious problem with shrinkage and warpage.� (Quote from JBelk)

How do the aftermarket producers of t/c barrels weld the blocks on without damaging the barrels? (Please don�t tell me they all own an electron beam welder)

I�m asking these questions because I love my Encore carbine and would love to be able to purchase a myriad of interesting barrels for it. This is not very practical when a barrel and forearm is within $75 of a new CZ 527 or Savage bolt action rifle. (Although, for quality workmanship I�m willing to pay it)

However, the last barrel I purchased was from Virgin Valley (27� 243 AI). While I�m happy with the way it shoots, I was jerked around on the delivery time quite a bit and when it finally arrived, the hanger bar had not been properly centered in the dove tails (By a long shot). Thus, I had to take a brand new product to my local gunsmith to be fixed before a shot could ever be fired.

I would much rather have a trusted gunsmith of my own choosing perform the work. However, VV charges the same price to weld a block on my blank as they do for a complete drilled, taped, chambered, head spaced, blued, etc barrel (Minus $69 for providing the $$$More than 69$$$ blank)

The way I see it, either there must be some real magic to getting that block on the barrel that you can�t get anywhere else, or the labor involved in drilling, taping, chambering, head spacing, and bluing, costs them nothing???

I guess this is just me as a consumer wanting to figure out what my options are and why there are so few of them.

P.S. If you are devising devices/fixtures that make this process viable for the average gun smith����.I don�t know what to say���.but it would make you a hell of a guy in my book !!!!!!

J.W., I am not satisfied with the status quo, and something will shake out one way or the other.

As for the welding, that electron beam stuff was garbage compared to TIG welding, and you will note that post fire TC barrels are now TIG welded also, just like the aftermarket guys have done all along.

You will get some warpage of the barrel in welding. Earlier TC beam welded barrels are warped, as are the TIG welded barrels. From what I have seen, the quick weld that VVG does warps the barrels the least. When I was chambering quite a few new VVG barrels, I rarely found the bores off more than a couple thous. and the typical factory TC barrel runs close to .020" off quite often with about .010" being pretty common.

There is some warpage in the barrels I am making right now, but it is minimal.... average is about .005" runout.

However, from about 20 years of rechambering thousands of TC factory barrels, the system I have worked out gets around the warpage pretty neatly so that it has little effect.

If you dial in off of the bore and lathe bore the hole true before attempting to do anything with a reamer, cut the chamber body only, then as a last and independent operation cut the throat using a minimum diameter throat reamer, the warpage does not matter in the least.

The older I get and the more wear and tear there is on my left hand pushing steel out of barrels hand holding reamers, the more I like lathe boring to rough the chamber any way. I have ruined a few barrels doing this, but have it down pretty well now. If the bore is dialed in "true" then what is bored out is also dead true with the bore. This then gives the reamer a straight shot in.

But if you leave the curavture in the bore, the reamer is wallowing around all the way in, and you never get a true chamber and you certainly cannot hold tolerances on the throat diameter or the throat alignemnt, even with well fitted pilots. Throating separately is the key... that and using a minimum diameter throat reamer, pereferrably with a long leade angle.

One key to the TIG weld is to not use a high tensile strength fill. I feel some fill is better than just fusing the two base materials, both of which have a high carbon content, and thus are more prone to leaving a brittle weld.

A 60,000 psi mild steel fill dilutes the weld and results in a stronger weld than TC's old beam weld, which will push off at about 12 tons. Mild steel welds I destruct tested eons ago took 14 tons to break off.

A fill with about a 75,000 psi tensile strength takes about 18 tons to push off.... assuming a little preheat and a slow cool down that does not cause hardening and brittleness in the weld.

I was told that 309 stainless was ideal for both stainless and welding stainless to a dissimilar material like the 4130 chrome moly I am using for lugs. Further research confirmed this, and this is what the shop that welds my barrels is now using. I have not destruct tested any of the stainless welds, but have no concern over their strength. I just resumed making barrels in the past few weeks, and so far there has not been a hint of trouble with the welds. All barrels have been based on either .307 Win. or .444 Marlin cases so far and shot at maximum for the Contender.

If the other 'smiths you mentioned have problems welding the barrels, nearly every area has someone with a TIG machine that is pretty good with it. Where I am I had at least a half dozen to choose from without looking very hard. For the cost of a good machine, I can farm out a lot of welding and get a lot of good experience and technical assistance in the bargain. So happens I settled on a guy who also has a bit of Contender rabies practially next door, but not for his mutual interest in guns, rather that he is a highly skilled machinist, welder, and sheet metal worker who loves what he does.

From what I gather, even the little cheap TIG machines do a good job.

Back in the mid 80's when I first started making barrels, sort of on a dare, I guess... or just to show me..... the fellow I was working with insisted that arc welding with 7018 rod would work well.... and it did. We did a couple that way, and they held just fine. However, the weld was not nearly as neat as with the TIG.

I'd say the fellows you referred to just need a bit more skill with their machines.

I've done quite a bit of TIG welding myself welding bolt handles and building up things on rifles, etc., but have never personally welded a barrel to a lug. I would not hesitate to do so, but still defer to the pros who know the machine and know their business. That might not be bad advice to the other 'smiths. But there is no reason a barrel should be ruined in the welding process.

Mike

Mike,
Just wanted to throw in a few opinions. First of all by just welding the lug to the barrel with no filler material. While this method of fusing works ok with sheetmetal work , welding with no filler shouldnt be used in a situation where high stress on the weld is possible. Think about it for a min. when you fuse them together with no filler the molten metal that fuses them together has to come from somewhere. That type of welding works good when you are welding outside corners of sheetmetal together or when you are welding a larger diam. tubing to a smaller one that is being sleeved. If you ever weldsomething that way, say a junk barrel and a pice of material that you make the lugs from. Take and either cross section the weld and look at how low the weld is. Not much there the the root of the joint. Using filler metal is the only way to do it. Problem is heat and distortion of the workpiece. You can control this by welding in smaller areas offsetting the beads from side to side. This by no means eliminates the warping but helps.
On another subject, you are using the Chrome molly for the locking lugs. We had this discussion the other day at work. I wont give the detais of where that is but suffice to say there was at least 60 years of welding exp. and all of us are certified welders. A few of us use the stainless fill and others use just mild steel for filler metal. It usually depends on what the engineer tells us to use. I never use molly for filler when joining molly joints together.
I am no machanist so this question may be stupid but I will ask it anyway. When chambering a new barrel that has never been chambered before
wouldnt it make since to weld on the lug first then chamber the barrel. Isnt there some warping to the barrel caused by chambering . Surely the heat and stress of rechambering caused some molecular changes in the area of the new chamber.
I know that threading sometimes does.
As to cheap TIG welders. I have used a few different ones, as well as some very expensive ones. The downside to the cheap ones is most are DC only and none I have used have High Frequency start. There are other options the expensive ones have that might make welding those lugs on with minimal distortion.
We use mostly Miller Sincrowave 250's. I have seen them used for less than 2500 bucks. By far the best value.

I was told that 309 stainless was ideal for both stainless and welding stainless to a dissimilar material like the 4130 chrome moly I am using for lugs. Further research confirmed this, and this is what the shop that welds my barrels is now using. I have not destruct tested any of the stainless welds, but have no concern over their strength.

Mike I must Agree with this. I used to weld as part of my living in the pipefittin world.
SST fill or Rod is Stronger and will bold well too both metals. And it is at least as strong as 7018 Rod.

Fireball

Assuming that we are talkin a 4140 barrel to a 4140 lug an ER70S-6 filler is a much better metal match. Stainless fillers like 308 are typically used for "hard to weld" applications but 4140 does not fall into that catagory. The following parameters are recommended for this application.

Filler: ER70S-6
Preheat: 350-400 degrees F
Post Weld: SLOW COOL! (to prevent hydrogen cracking) Wrap in a blanket or cover with sand.

A low hydrogen electrode like 7018 would work very well in this application but obviously would provide a larger bead than necessary or required.

As for equipment, Lincoln Electric's Squarewave 175 would be perfect for this application. This machine offers (as the name implies) Squarewave AC output & also DC and is also very affordable for someone that is not goiong to make a living from burning wire. It DOES utilize high frequency for start if needed.

Hope this helps....

[ 12-08-2002, 22:41: Message edited by: MSSmagnum ]

sorry i am a miller man.....jj i just forgot about the 175 Have you used any of the inverter powered ones yet?

Of course we could all switch to competitors and have and easy to make thread on barrel.
Rich

Hopefully they are quieter.

OK this is WAAAAAY over my head, but you guy's get it all worked out because I'm still waiting for that magical $200 custom barrel.

I believe someone could make a pretty good living making runs of T/C barrels much the same way the factory does. If you can buy a NEF barrel for $75, why not a properly chambered / throated Contender or Encore barrel for $150 - $200.

I've said it once, and I'll keep sayin' it until it gets done. We better not net this die, or we'll keep paying these prices.

Alpo: I hate to sound like a broken record butttt....
Competitor's price for a new barrel is $175.00. One frame uses ALL calibers.
Rich

Well, when Bullberry starts making competitor barrels, I'll start buying competitor frames.
T.D.

Ok they make them for 75 bucks so you are willing to put one of them on your gun. For one thing the fit and finish isnt nearly as good. They also dont attach the same way, there is not pivot hole for the frame. From what I understand that is one of the issues that would greatly affect accuracy. Lastly the forarm is held on by a threaded stem that appears to be spot welded on. I just dont think that you are comparing apples to apples.
I dont think I would want one of those ugly things on my contender.
Cliff

Caleah

I take it that you dont agree. I am of the opinion that you get what you pay for in most cases. I could make them at home sure. Think about it if you just make the basic purchaces in order to manufacure them. A lathe 2grand, a mill another 2 grand welder another 2 grand. Now then add tooling who knows how much. Now if I was making one for someone else. How much time do you think it would take. I would say 4-8 hours. Mabe more. I dont know what a high quality machanist makes but I do know what I make as a skilled person and its about 20-30 bucks an hour. How on earth do you expect someone to make you a barrel for 150 bucks when the labor alone is over that amount. I am not defending the cost of custom barrels lord knows I would like to get them cheap too. But you need to understand theres just more to it than meets the eye. I havent even adressed the cost of insurance they have to carry because some people are idiots and blow stuff up when the over load stuff. Yeah you pay the cost for that in every barrel you buy.
Just my thoughts
Caleath

Caleath,
Take a barrel blank and a bolt gun to a quality gunsmith in Any-Town USA and he will give you back a finished rifle for approximately $125. These folks are running a business with expenses and insurance just like anyone else in the industry.

The only difference between what this average gunsmith would do and what the t/c aftermarket does is mounting a barrel block Vs cutting threads. These two activities would most likely offset each other in labor hours. However, for arguments sake, let�s say it takes a full additional hour to locate and mount the block. At $30 hr. we now are up to $155 in labor.

According to VVCG, they are only paying $69 for the barrel blanks. (Volume discount) That makes $224. Add $30 in parts and materials (high estimate) and you have $255!

The prices most folks are paying is around $100 above this figure. Why ??? Don�t say you�re buying quality superior to what you would get at a professional gunsmith. (All the professional gunsmiths I have ever met were sticklers for attention to detail. It was definitely lacking in my last barrel purchase.)

Your paying an additional $100 because you have no place else to go!


[ 12-10-2002, 06:27: Message edited by: J.W. Blute ]

But you need to understand theres just more to it than meets the eye. I havent even adressed the cost of insurance they have to carry because some people are idiots and blow stuff up when the over load stuff. Yeah you pay the cost for that in every barrel you buy.
Just my thoughts
Caleath

My guess would be Most custom guys DO NOT have ins. I may be wrong but I Bet one good lawsuit and the shop closes up. I do agree with the time and labor involved but then a good shop turns them out fast and had the where with all to get the tools or had them from another venture.
Really the custom barrel prices are a good deal untill they get over 300.00

Fireball

Hey J.W., so are you saying that gunsmiths should sell their work at cost? Shouldn't they get some profit out of the deal? And why shouldn't their profit margin be on par with any other successful business. Sure, I'ld like to get things for free, but I'ld also like to think that if I was ever inclined to become a gunsmith, I should be able to run it like any other business. Unfortunately, most gunsmiths charge too little for their work which makes becoming a gunsmith almost a losing proposition, thereby decreasing the number of smiths available and increasing customer's lead time. What do you think?

Savageshooter,
The profit is included in the labor costs. When you pay for labor, the rate is well above the hourly rate of the worker. This is standard practice throughout industry. (If you lookup the average wages for a machinist in Utah you'll find it's not $30 per hour)

No one wants to get barrels for free or to sentence anyone to poverty. My point is that paying $350 for a $250 (profit included) piece of merchandise is foolish. Yet this is the entry fee for most aftermarket t/c carbine barrels.
While, other industry producers, such as CZ & Savage, can make an entire rifle for $425 and remain profitable. (A mere $75 above the price of a t/c barrel)

If there were a way to open this market up to other producers, competition and basic economics would remedy this discrepancy. Which, was the purpose of this post from the beginning

[ 12-10-2002, 21:28: Message edited by: J.W. Blute ]

You are correct its simple economic rules. Supply and demand. Our economy works that way and we shouldnt be all together supprised that custom encore/contender barrels work that way too.
I have thought about making them myself too. It should be possible, the biggest hurdle I can see it the mounting block. I am sure I could make one but how long would it take. If I could buy them already to go that would make things easier. I have the welder and the experience to attach them, my concerns would be chambering them and getting it all lined up right.
I wonder really how much demand there is for them though. If the demand was high how would someone keep up with making them. I read that Mike Bellam is a one man show. Would he be willing to have to stand behind a mill/lathe for 8 hours a day making what I would guess at best would be 4 barrels a day. So lets say for the sake of argument that it cost him just in materials 100 bucks for the barrel blank and the block. Now like it or not overhead is calculated into each and every product you buy. So lets add 20 bucks for equipment,rent,insurance,licensing, and lets not forget maybe some profit. It usually runs in the 20% range so lets add another 20 bucks for profit. Now we have to finish the barrel if its chrome molly then blueing is required. You could outsource this pain in the neck or do it yourself. I dont know how many of you have ever stood over blueing tanks, but it sucks. Oh I forgot you must polish the barrel or bead blast it too.
I know that I am dragging on and on but bear with me. I dont think I could make 4 a day doing it like this. Maybe Mike could help with this. But lets say I could do it. I have spent 8 hours gotten 4 barrels done, if I didnt have to answer the phone 20 times a day taking order and telling people that their stuff is in process. Believe me its possibe.
So I worked 8 hours and made what 80 bucks. That comes to 10 bucks an hour, I got news for you there is no way I am working for that and no good gunsmith or machinist will either.
I am not trying to beat a dead horse, I just hope that each of you would understand that unless you have been in business for yourself, supplying a product that you have to make or build, then you cant really understand what all is involved. Not to mention having to deal with people that are pissed off because they didnt get what they wanted even though you supplied just that. Trust me there are people out there just like that, I have stood out in the sun for a week building a fence for someone, this included welding outside in the sun during August in Texas, where 100 degrees is not uncommon, and completed a job just to have the homeowner bitch and complain about something I did or didnt do right. Then I check my paperwork and see that I gave them exactly what they ordered, some people just get buyers remorse and think by complaining that I will give in and give them some deal. I dont, wont do it. If i make a mistake I make it right.
Ok I am done now. I hope not to piss people off I just needed to explain where I was coming from.
Caleath

I probably shouldn�t chime in here due to the conflict in interest (i.e. I�m one of the aftermarket bad guys), but I feel I should give you guys a little info before you decide to take on the process of building T/C barrels.

Being the head machinist at Virgin Valley and having been the one to do all the R&D, design, and testing of our barrels and various other projects, I feel it only fair to inform you of what you will be taking on.

Believe me when I tell you that T/C barrels are not easy to build. Not only do you have to take into account the tolerances of your own barrels, but you also have to take into account the variances of T/C frames. This creates quite a few problems even if you hold perfect tolerances on your own product.

Many seem to think that the main hurdle to building T/C�s is getting the under lug. However, I�ve always been willing to sell individual under lugs to whoever wants one. It�s not like I�m holding on to any secrets. In fact, I always tell the people I sell them to exactly what dimensions to use for the various processes involved in finish machine work. I�d be happy to supply any one of you with an under lug and instructions on how to finish it out. I�m not worried about people competing with us. Building one barrel for yourself is one thing. Building hundreds of barrels for customers is entirely different.

Probably the biggest hurdle to overcome if you plan on producing large quantities of barrels is acquiring the rest of the parts to complete the barrel (believe me T/C will not sell them to you). We CNC machine all those parts ourselves. Of course you could outsource them (we used to), but you�ll quickly find that the cost of this is outrageous, and finding a shop that is capable of holding the tolerances you need is rare and even more expensive.

Welding of the barrel is also critical. If done improperly, you run the risk of causing someone serious harm. I�ve often had complaints about my weld being too big. However, I�d rather my weld was stronger than it needs to be than run the risk of hurting someone. You will find that there are a lot of inexperienced hand loaders out there that often make mistakes. I can�t tell you how many times I�ve removed separated or stuck cases because someone overloaded them. I�ve seen lugs bend from extreme pressure, and I�ve seen locking bolts sheared off too. Also, I don�t like to talk badly about my competitors so I won�t mention the shops, but I�ve seen dozens of other barrels that have had the lug completely blown off.

I�m not trying to rain on anyone�s parade. I just feel it fair that you guys know a little bit more about what you�d be getting into. It�s not an easy process.

As far as our prices are concerned, we do everything possible to keep them down. A lot of you may think that we are making a killing charging the prices that we do, but I can assure you that we don�t adjust our prices according to demand.

In closing, I�m not trying to discourage you people from producing your own barrels, but I feel it only fair to warn you of the problems you are going to face.

If you have any questions, I�m always willing to help. Just e-mail me.

Without wading through all the posts in detail, regarding the weld.... dilution of the weld with a lower tensile strength fill is a good idea, I think.

Factory TC barrels appear to be a fusion of the two base materials, but I will leave this assessment up to the many highly experienced welders that have responded.

My situation is that I wanted to be able to mix and match stainless & chrome moly, thus picking 309 stainless.

The matter of welding barrels already chambered... you have thinned the barrel wall, thus will likely get more warpage, and thus more potential for distorting the chamber. I prefer referencing off the bore, then truing things up to get a distortion free chamber in line with the bore.

The matter of details in making barrels, yes, it takes some "fine intuitive feel" for the field, but to dismiss the idea out of hand because there is a learning curve involved is short sighted, I think.

Ref. the workmanship/design elements of NEF barrels v. TC barrels, the operations and step involved are not that dissimilar.... not to the tune of more than double the price!

Hinge pin hole v. the hook arrangement of the NEF barrels.... mox nix. Either has to be in the right place, and whether it is a complete circle or an arc, the centerline has to be in the right place, true?

Jeff, OK. What is my cost for an Encore lug?

And regarding TC selling parts.... heck no they won't sell parts in quantity to folks making barrels.... but... they do sell parts, and so long as they do, the parts can be had.

And for what they charge for parts, outsourcing them should not separate a wannabee barrel maker from the others. Overcoming those obstacles is the objective I would like to help with.

Gotta run.... but this was showing too much interest to walk away from.

Mike

Mike, my post was directed more towards those wishing to build and sell Encore barrels to the public.

Those who simply want to build their own (therefore having no one to please but themselves), is an entirely different matter.

Like I said, I've always been willing to sell parts and offer advice to those who wish to do it themselves. I won't however supply a company who is in direct competition with me.

As far as selling lugs to you Mike, I don't have a problem with that as long as the quantity is moderately low. The cliental you cater to is different enough that I would not be cutting my own throat by doing so. If you wish to discuss price, send me an e-mail and I'll let you know what I sell them for.

Ok so I dont want this to die down. I did some checking around. I am fortunate enough to live close to a few of the best barrel makers there are. Shilen is but 30 mins from my house. I checked on the price of a Chrome molly blank from them. Its at least 150 dollars. Now if they chamber it tread it and install it thats another 350 dollars. So where then are there people installing them cheaper. The only person I know of is ER Shaw. There barrels are 130 bucks chambered and threaded. Now you pay 50 for them to install it and fit it. Now you pay 75 to have it blued. Ok now thats just 255 dollars and a steal if you ask me, I dont know how they do it. Oh I forgot the turnaround time is 10-12 weeks. I dont think it takes that long to get a barrel from VV or Bellam or any of the others.
Still a good deal I think.
Cliff

Caleath,
The prices you are giving are retail prices not wholesale or volume prices. Contact VV Jeff and ask him how much he reduces the price when you provide your own barrel blank. The answer isn’t $150 the answer is $69.
Thus, either $69 is all he is paying for a barrel, or he is screwing you to the tune of $81 when you provide the barrel.

Either way shows that it’s not quite the great deal that you think it is.

As far as gunsmithing prices see:

http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=004507

Also, check your Brownells catalog for pricing guidelines on gunsmithing services.

Finally: Van Horn custom rifles
Chamber & fit your barrel to action $168.00

All of these services are performed at a profit.

[ 12-12-2002, 18:05: Message edited by: J.W. Blute ]

VV Jeff,
"Screw" may have been a poor choice of words. (I apologize for coming off a little strong.) I was simply trying to point out that the numbers don't add up strait across.

You are also absolutely right that many of the questions I have posed and some of the statements I have made are uninformed. The point was to stimulate discussion and see if there is, or may be in the future, a better way.

You run a business and are trying to make a living just like anyone else. I don’t begrudge you this whatsoever, but lets be serious.

FROM THE VVCG WEB PAGE

* The barrel prices quoted below are for COMPLETE barrels. No discounts will be given for requesting an incomplete barrel, ie; no chamber, no barrel markings, no crown, etc. We will be happy to meet your requests, but the price of the barrel will remain as quoted below.

* If you would like your barrel made from a barrel blank you furnish, we will be happy to do so. We will deduct $69.00 from the stated chrome moly price.

END QUOTE

Most gunsmiths and machinists in our current market are happy to perform partial work and would not think of charging someone for work they did not perform or for material they did not buy.
You can do this because you have a niche market. I’m NOT implying that your policy is underhanded in any way. (It’s great if you can do it) Only that in a highly competitive market it would not be possible.

Competition is something that is better for the consumers. (Lower prices) But not as good for the producers (Lower margins).

Thus, our differing points of view.

I realize that it may seem unfair to charge full price for a barrel without the chamber. However, we would much rather finish a barrel completely ourselves. We guarantee our work and it becomes a complicated matter if we start sending out barrels that are partially finished. When we do, that barrel no longer carries any warrantee because we didn�t do all the work ourselves. We�ve had quite a few customers become upset that we won�t warrantee a barrel that someone else finished (i.e. a chamber, crown, muzzle brake, etc�). In fact, we won�t even put our name on a barrel we didn�t chamber.

Most of you might see this as unfair pricing, however, we are considering dropping the service altogether. We really don�t feel comfortable selling barrels in that state.

I meant no offense with my response J.W. I don�t want you to think I�m upset over this. I just didn�t want people to have the wrong idea about Virgin Valley.

With Justin now no longer with the company, it leaves me in charge of operations. It�s my goal to make this company the best out there in regards to quality and customer service. You can call it a mission statement of sorts. In the past, I�ve felt that a few of our customers were not treated as they should have been. I want to remedy that. I�d like to read these boards and hear nothing but praise for our company. I�m doing my best now to insure that happens in the future. When people think of T/C barrels, I want to be their first choice, and I�ll do my best to get there.

In closing I'd like to let you know that I'll always give you a straight answer. I value the opinions of those that frequent this forum. I encourage criticism and discussion in all forms. If you ask a question dealing with our operation methods or pricing, I'll never BS you or become angry. I think our product will speak for itself and I have nothing to hide.

Now, I�ve spent too much time in here and I need to get back to work. Happy shooting guys.

just for record. my virgin valley 13" stainless 6mmbr barrel is just plain awesome. looks great, shoots great,and was delivered when they said it would be. it don't get better than that. e-mails were answered quickly by steve. all phone questions were very informative and helpful. what else could a guy expect. that kind of service is what makes a business survive.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by J.W. Blute:
You are also absolutely right that many of the questions I have posed and some of the statements I have made are uninformed. The point was to stimulate discussion and see if there is, or may be in the future, a better way.

UNINFORMED is the POINT here. These types of Comments leads to nothing but BS discussion.
We(the forum Members) are not Gunsmiths and do NOT own Machine shops.

VV is in bussiness to Make Money. I wish to purchase a Lilja Barrel and Have it Machined and Done up By a custom shop. I full expect to pay almost Full POP due to their Insurance and warranty problems.

And as far a competition??? IN contenders?? We are NOBODY in the world of guns. We are a VERY small percentage of gun owners and their never will be much competition for us.

But I guess you could use SSK...I am sure you will get a WONDERULL ATTITUDE with a smile! <grin>

I see no reason to stimulate BS

And for the record VV Jeff......Please do NOT retract your offer to the whole group. Let not one comment from ONE uniformed person ruin it for everyone.

Fireball

[ 12-14-2002, 09:08: Message edited by: Fireball ]

Jeff

I have one question that I would like you to answer. Your policy states:

"If you would like your barrel made from a barrel blank you furnish, we will be happy to do so. We will deduct $69.00 from the stated chrome moly price."

Why do you only allow a $69 credit if I want to supply my own barrel blank? Is your cost on Shilen blanks really only $69???? If not, why should a customer pay extra to have a barrel made with his own blank??? I'm not trying to be arguementative, I just want to know how you come up with the $69 figure.

Guys-
Mike Bellm is a great friend of mine, so it might sound a bit funny when I back VV Jeff. Bottom line - VV has EVERY right to charge what they want. They have noted very clearly (IMHO) what they will and won't do and the discounts available (for your barrel). I agree with Mike that we should be able to by barrels for cheaper, but I also know a couple of other things (and I think Mike would agree)...

First - VV has a plant that they work out of. This requires some pretty hefty utilities, insurance, taxes, etc.

Second - Employees, this means work comp (btw, here in Kalifornia, ours just went up 60%), possibly medical insurance, the employer's part of the payroll taxes, etc..

Next, they also must carry liability insurance. Not sure, but I'm guessing that theirs is higher than mine (sewer construction company), and mine hurts.

Next, equipment. I think you guys probably understand this one better than I do.

There are also gov't regs, etc, that raise the price of running an office.

Soooooo - if i wanted to go out into Mike's shop (an old truck/trailer box i think) and make barrels, i would have the equipment and supplies cost, but no real overhead... I could do it alot cheaper. Also, I can't speak for the folks at VV, but I will ALWAYS do more conciencious work than my employees. Because I'm the owner and it is my name on the job, not theirs.

Rant mode off. I'm sorry, just been dealing with County idiots this week and feeling the lack of intelegent conversation. :-)

steve