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Fireball, Thought I had that covered, but you are correct! BTW - flip side of this arguement. I don't own a VV barrel. Can't afford one. Not knocking them, I think they have the right and the reason to charge what they do, just can't afford it. steve | |||
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Sorry, but I don't buy the insurance excuse.....there is NO way the insurance could cost as much as the difference between what Virgin Valley credits for using my blank ($69) and what their blanks actually costs them. Even if it did, why would they have any more liability with a new Shilen blank I buy and ship to them than one that is shipped to them directly from Shilen??? I'm still waiting for an explanation from someone at Virgin Vally.....any speculation from you guys is just that, speculation. Now, if they really only have $69 in the barrel blanks they use, then I can understand the situation. | |||
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Well....All I can say is call Shilen and ask what kind of price they will do you for say.....250 barrels. That should clear things up. I KNOW! Someone call SSK and ask them what there paying for there Shilen blanks...BETTER YET! ask them to work on another custom barrel makers barrel. I know one thing.....Your gonna love the answer ya get.....If they don't hang up on ya first ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} [ 12-15-2002, 00:56: Message edited by: Jules ] | |||
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It is really gratifying to see these issues being aired, and there are lots of places I could jump in. Picking just a few...... After 23 years of doing work for you guys, I feel one of the biggest cost "drains" is simply the words, "I want......." As soon as you say, "I want....." special handling kicks in, extensive communication time ensues. Then under pressure to fulfill your, "I want......" timely, what I see from many, many sources is details glossed over in the rush and more cost "drains" incurred trying to get done right what should have been done in the first place. You make nothing going back and reworking something, but it costs out the whazoo just the same. Like TC's wonderful lifetime warranty. It is a delusion. You are not getting anything you are not paying a premium for on the retail end, and this is one of the things that is floating to the top of the conversation. Ie., if NEF can build a barrel under $100, why can't the others. They can! The matter of insurances..... you, the consumer, build this trap into the system supporting litigation and the pork sharks making a killing on it. Now offense to family and friends with bar numbers, but you guys don't come cheap. True fact is that people should be held accountable for their actions, agreed. But it is also a true fact that a big, big percentage of lawsuits regarding firearms are the product of an idiot at work, doing something stupid, hurting himself or others, then strapping it on someone else. I have watched it close up. Shooters should be held to be accountable for their actions, but I don't see countersuits against consumers when they fail to get a judgement. They cost the defending company enormous sums of money defending themselves, and this cost must be born by every other consumer. You are your own worst enemies in this regard. Overhead. Yep, my little shop is only 14'x 8.' Overhead is nearly zip, and I LOVE IT. This may change someday. Taking a lesson from the Pacific Rim countries, I understand that much of their industry falls into the category of "cottage industry." From my time in Korea back in '90, I still have visions of all those rusty pieces of sheet metal roofing barely hanging on poles and all that pretty new green machinery working inside. This was in the port city of Pusan. But this is where much of our industry is going, like it or not. Much of what I do is coordinated with other shops, some of which, believe it or not, are smaller than mine! Craftsmen. That is the key, wherever they happen to be. Going back to the point about Korea, I did not get into any of the industrial plants there, but from many years ago, I learned that Ruger, for example, used the Koreans for building their moulds for investment castings. At the time, in lots of 1000, the Koreans would also DO the investment castings for you and were quoting $8-10 for a rifle receiver, as cast. Where is this going? Nowhere specifically, other than to suggest there are other ways to go about things, and restating my position, I feel there are quite a few things about the TC barrel industry that could stand some gentle pressure in the direction of getting prices down and quality up. Our entire economy is continually being changed. We shooters have not felt it much shooting TCs, but the winds of change will eventually blow this way. Behind the scenes, I will continue to do what I can for the benefit of shooters. That has been my stand all along. If and when I can no longer do that, I quit. Meanwhile, I strongly encourage making the technology and means of making TC barrels more available to anyone interested in making barrels, whether it is in someone's basement, garage, or industrial complex.... overseas even. It is not that much of a black art once one reasons his way through things. Exchange of information will only benefit the shooter. I cordially remain, THE TC Heretic | |||
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Not to go off to far but. Own four of their barrels and couldn't be happier. I by no means am a rich man. I don't drink or smoke or anything like that so all of my pennies go in a jar and when I have enough I give Dave a call to see what they have laying around. I understand your question about the discount for using your own barrel but the fact is that anytime you buy in bulk you get a discount. I have heard that they get a case of barrels a week. Don't know how many per case but to constitute a case is more than 2 or 3 I'm certain. If you want something that will get you from point A to B you could drive a truck or ride a bike among others. They will both work but one is a lot nicer to have when the sky opens up and drops on you. If you want cheap buy factory. If you want a barrel you can depend on for out of the box accuracy then save your pennies. Not trying to lite a fire but you pay for quality. Check around to see how much the other encore barrel maker will discout for suppling your own barrel. You will find that VV has the rest beat. | |||
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quote:That may be true, but it doesn't make it right. I hope everyone will understand my question, I'm NOT trying to beat up on VVCG, I just want an answer as to why they only allow a $69 credit for supplying my own barrel blank! If they can buy Shilen blanks for $69, then that answers my question......but the question remains unanswered at this time...... Ans, Yes, I do own VVCG barrels......several as a matter of fact. | |||
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quote:I assume that VV get's there barrel blanks already turned to the appropriate dia for the action being used, ie .80" for the contender, 1.00" for the encore. If you provide them a barrel, then they will have to contour it to fit. They don't know the quality or condition of the barrel you are sending them, and so they don't have full control of the final product, and your satisfaction in the final product. Personally I'm sick and tired of all this whining about how VV is ripping everyone off. Except for a few name shops that higher machinists for bottom $, and crank up their production, the average gunsmith is vastly underpaid for what he does. It is a shame that the years of hard work to gain the skills as a good smith, and the tens of thousands of dollars invested to set up a shop don't pay the dividends that IMHO are deserved. A computer programmer with a couple $k for a pc, and a few more for some software easily earns double what a smith charges. | |||
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Ok, maybe I’m missing the point here, but I’m just a dumb ‘ol cuntry boy anyhow. I think the main discussion here is how inexpensive can a shop, any shop, offer an accurate T/C barrel. So here’s the big question. Is there any way that Contender / Encore shooters can get an aftermarket barrel that will shoot worth a dang and cost about the same as what factory does? I think this is the ultimate goal. IMHO if any shop does this, they will corner the market, small as it may be. Mike Bellm, You’re right on the money about Pacific Rim countries. I recently spoke to one of my company’s distributors in Malaysia. He asked me “listen close, do you hear that sucking sound? That’s all the U.S. money and market share gettin’ sucked up by China” I bet if I sent them an Encore barrel, they could give me a good-looking accurate barrel for under $100. Yep, makes me mad too, but it’s the truth. VV Jeff, Would it be possible to private label something for another company using less expensive (but still quality) barrel blanks and get the end cost down by moving more product? You guys are selling stuff to Midway USA. Could you manufacture the barrels and let somebody like them market and distribute them. | |||
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quote:It is something I won't rule out for the future. Being a small shop we are limited on resources. To give you an example, I not only design all the product, I also write the programs for the CNC, set it up, and run the parts myself. That, in and of itself, is a full time job. On top of that I have many other tasks that (at the present time) I'm the only one skilled enough to do. Almost every employee in our shop is in the same position (stretched thin to say the least). I don't say this to make excuses or elicit sympathy. It's just to give you an idea of why we don't offer some of the other products that a lot of you might want. There are many possibilities for the future, and I hope someday we can offer something for everyone. At the present time, however, we just don't have the resources required to branch out that quickly. | |||
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| <Fireball> |
posted 12-15-2002 02:16 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is really gratifying to see these issues being aired, and there are lots of places I could jump in. Picking just a few...... After 23 years of doing work for you guys, I feel one of the biggest cost "drains" is simply the words, "I want......." As soon as you say, "I want....." special handling kicks in, extensive communication time ensues. Then under pressure to fulfill your, "I want......" timely, what I see from many, many sources is details glossed over in the rush and more cost "drains" incurred trying to get done right what should have been done in the first place. Dont go there!! custom barrels are just that Custom barrels. If a shop wishes to only build them One way then Please do! Feel free to Stock what you want to sell. Maybe someone should just build a barrel with a good chamber and forget the special stuff...sell it for a fair price. Now this would NOT be a custom barrel but most would be happy with that....BUT IF you are a buying from a Custom shop the I WANT should AlWAYS be greeted with a smile and SMART ASS response Left at the door. WE ARE paying for the I WANT at $300.00 and more for a custom barrel. Not starting a flame with anyone here but CUSTOM Barrels are for Finicky Customers who WANT what they WANT......THE FIRST TIME and in a timely manner.....and that is what we pay for. I personally switched my CuSTOM made barrels to DAVE. He gives what you want and when you want.....within reason with a SMILE. Fireball | ||
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Maybe someone should just build a barrel with a good chamber and forget the special stuff...sell it for a fair price. Now this would NOT be a custom barrel but most would be happy with that Fireball I know that I would fit into that catagory. The way things are right now you can pay for a factory barrel that Quality control has dropped substantually. I gladly buy factory barrels with resonable quality for a fair price. I know that I don't always need custom but I'd rather pay extra for a barrel that was built right rather than dumping my money into a factory barrel that quality control slipped to the point where I, a regular guy can see the problems with my own eyes unassisted by equipment. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} Rich Jake | |||
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"And if you were to try and sue say over a death...Forget it...most have nothing to lose so your law suit would gain you nothing." ...... and I will add also, break a lot of people from "sucking eggs" strapping it on a manufacturer for their own mistakes. There are valid lawsuits, but a big percentage are simply someone looking for someone else to take the blame for their mistakes and too many "ambulance chaser" attorneys hungry to take on a juicy contingency suit that looks like a jury will buy. Face it, 90% of you serious shooters and reloaders really don't know what is inside a barrel or chamber. So what makes you think a jury does, especially when it is explained by someone who doesn't know either? "Expert Testimony" bought by the prosecution? I'd look at that with a really jaundiced eye also. I have seen first hand on several occasions where, for example, the guy simply grabbed the wrong can of powder, blew up a Browning rifle, then in this example finds an attorney to sue Browning for his stupidity. I'm sorry, fellas, but this happens all the time, and it is dead assed WRONG! Feeding such a system is WRONG! Whatever the settlement ended up being, it is you and your fellow shooters that pay for your stupidity and your lies..... NOT the manufacturer. The $$ has to come from somewhere. The manufacturer is just passing on the costs to the next guy. You can start firing the flak rounds now, but I think cottage industries, ie., smaller targets, are the way to go. If the bigger shops, constantly under pressure to crank out product in a hurry so they can pay all the "tariffs" that go with their size and the size of the target they represent to the legal profession, fail to maintain quality control..... which they all too often fail at very badly...... then, given a "leg up," the smaller shops collectively could very readily take up the slack. Bigger is not better. In reality, all too often it is the other way around. Smaller is better if you want quality..... so long as "smaller" has a good craftsman behind it. In the back of my mind still is the possible route of making and selling fixtures to individuals, along with how-to instructions, so more shops can make barrels. One post recently was tallying up the cost of machinery. However, you can go a long way with cheap machines if you have good fixtures. Browsing quickly through Harbor Freight's store here recently, some of those bench mills they have are priced pretty decently, and I will vouch for what can be done on a $1K bench mill..... that is all I have for a vertical mill! As for the fixtures, I am guessing a basic fixture such as the one I am using right now could be built and sold for under $1500. In rough terms, the labor of transforming a barrel blank into a completed barrel is about $150. Aside from the cost of other tooling such as chamber reamers, 10 barrels would pay for the fixture. Done as a hobby, as many would, a hobby business, as a viable cottage industry, or as an adjunct to other business activities it has potential. Like the Encore Trigger Job instructions I put out, it is simply a matter of someone flattening out the learning curve for you. After 23 years of doing all sorts of barrel work, I think I can lend a hand. If I can coach a barrel maker in Australia by telephone on how to make bore reamers and grind rifling buttons, I think I can handle coaching on Contender barrels. I have also coached American shops getting started in making barrel blanks.... again by phone. With the internet and the ease of getting pix online or on disc, the task is much, much easier today than it was 15 years ago. Let's see what the coming year or so brings. A lot has happened in the past couple years, so hold onto your shorts. Just last night, for example, after planting the seeds in regard to making Contender (or Encore) locking bolts, another shop and I got into a discussion about alternative ways to make setups for machining out locking bolts, as opposed to investment casting them like TC does. No telling what might develop. Like the Headspace Indicator bases, it was an idea brewing, dropped in the lap of a shop with a strong interest in guns looking for work that took off almost overnight. Anything can happen, and you can bet the family farm I will keep the pot stirred. Mike | |||
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As we speak, the shop that makes the Headspace Indicator bases for me is making another Contender drill fixture for drilling & tapping the scope screw holes and locating the holes in the barrel lug. This is a "second prototype" since the one they already had was made sometime back. After this one is completed, they will give me a price making them for resale to individuals and gunsmiths interested in making their own barrels or barrels for others. If and when I start selling fixtures, instructions will be available as well. What about the idea of a barrel makers' Cooperative for supplying barrel blanks at a better price? Anyone interested? I have some leads on good prices for barrel blanks right now that could be furnished to others making barrels. Just a thought. Mike | |||
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| <Fireball> |
quote:I will buy from you a fixture for the scope mounting base! Fireball | ||
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I don�t want to sound like the voice of dissent here, but if you are only building one or two barrels at a time for yourself, save your money. You don�t need the fixtures. The only time the fixtures come into play is when you are building large quantities at a time. Otherwise you simply need a good square vise on your milling machine. | |||
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Jeff, it depends on the level of expertise on the one hand and the "learning curve" figuring out what dimensions to use on the other, since they vary all over the place. Fixtures fix that. But on the other hand, you know what fixtures are worth, and it is not too likely that many individuals will pay the price of fixtures to make just a few barrels. After all these years of making barrels off and on and working from the dimensions on factory TC barrels for the scope base screw hole spacings, I still don't know what they are supposed to be! I have polled several scope base manufacturers AND THEY ARE NOT IN AGREEMENT. I have several calls into TC, but so far have not gotten the info. One base manufacturer shows a +/- of .006" on hole locations. Just out of curiosity, what do you figure for the short spacing between the close pair and the long spacing between the two pairs? Mike | |||
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The short spacing is .310 the long spacing is .840. It's the spacing most of the industry has always used. As far as the learning curve with fixtures. If you can't run a mill well enough to build a barrel without fixtures then you have no business building the barrel to begin with. As for dimensions. That's easy. I've already told you that I'd give any dimensions that a person requires. I'm not doing anything any competent machinist could not reverse engineer. | |||
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Only two things keep people from trying something new, fear and common sense. Fear of failure on the one hand and common sense that says it won't be easy on the other. You are correct about back engineering barrels, but why is it with all the good machinists in this country we can count the TC barrel manufacturers on one hand? Were you a bonafide machinist before starting work for your neighbor? Was Greg? Was Fred? I know full well that Fred wasn't, but he had the desire and a head start with the concepts involved while he looked on as I learned. To some extent or another, I would assume that everyone uses fixtures for locating holes, even TC. It simplifies and speeds up the process as well as making the results repeatable. It allows barrel manufacturers to put help wanted ads in the local paper to staff their plants with hourly operators instead of bonafide machinists. Thanks for the input on the scope base hole spacing. My "poll" today culminated with a successful call into TC. Here are some of the results I got. Redfield: Short spacing .308," long spacing .840" with a +/- of .006." Burris: Short spacing .312," long spacing .836." No tolerance stated. TC, from their prints: Short spacing .312," and long spacing .836." No tolerance stated, but I will assure all that they vary all other the place and I don't recall measuring any with a .312" spacing, which is why I ended up calling them in the first place. Most I have measured have been about .314" to .316" on the short spacing and about .832" to .836" on the long spacing. Granted, holes in bases have enough slop that we manage to get the bases on.... most of the time.....but you have probably run into situations where the bases were a mile and a half off also. As with anything else, things are much simpler once you understand them. All most folks need is a little insight and a "leg up" that tells them they can do it, such as with my trigger job instructions. As for "back engineering" things, stop and think about how the Contender leaves the vast majority of otherwise intelligent people looking like absolute fools when it comes to the basic function of the Contender frame..... they just need a little "leg up." From our vantage point, yours and mine, it is pretty simple, and it is. I am just making the point that the learning curve for others does not have to be a near vertical slope. Mike | |||
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I have personally had 4 encore pistol barrels, 2 frames, a rifled 20 gauge barrel, and a complete rifle based on a CZ 550 in 416 Rigby built by VV and feel that I can speak of the company's owners and employees. They have stood behind all of their products. The only time that I have been dis-satisfied with them was on time required to finish a project. I did not say a word about being somewhat disappointed in delivery time to anybody at VV. When I received my last order, they had discounted the work $150.00 and had sent a hand made knife. An apology was also sent on the invoice. I will be a life long customer of this company and would consider them for any project. Todd | ||
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Lets leave VVJeff alone. I would like him to have time to finish my new barrel and deliver it to me on time. When i talk to Steve i tell him this is the pain in the ass. He knows exactly who i am talking about. I will have three VV barrels and they all shoot and look much better than my factory barrels. I will continue to buy VV barrels. The next time you have your car serviced make sure you take your parts with you. Bob | |||
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bobg you might be happy with VV Jeff but I don't know if I am or not. I have had a VV barrel in 221 and have had never been able to get it to shoot as it should. I have tried everything and sent an email to Jeff and told him what all I had tried and got an email back that it was probably my new, NEW Remington 221 brass that was the problem not a short chamber. This the same people that shipped Buckweet a 25 cal 6tcu. I'm going to pack the barrel and send it back and hope that I will get it back right and not have to wait 3 months to get it back. This is the only barrel that I have EVER had a problem with. I normally look at myself in the mirror before casting stones at anyone. I do know this that there are other custom barrel makers that I will use and never Virgin Valley again. Its a shame for I was very proud to get this barrel. This is a flame from someone who doesn't flame!!!!! | |||
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Tommy - It is completely possible that you have a barrel that does not shoot. I think that is certainly in the rare few of VV's barrels for there are many of us who have good barrels. I'm sure that your current situation is a pain, but if you can't get it to shoot (and you didn't mention what level of accuracy is unacceptable to you) then I would think it should be on VV's head to either come up with a load that WILL shoot or supply you with another one. As for buckweet's barrel, we've all seen most of the posts regarding that mistake (and mistakes do happen). I'm assuming they have made it right with buckweet because he hasn't been complaining and I've seen the results of that barrel listed in the last postal shoot (where it did very darn well I might add). Give 'em a chance to make it right. We all watch the forum and vote with our $$$...that's where that guarantee is supposed to come into play anyway! | |||
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tommyn, Sorry about your 221 barrel. I also own a 14" 221 Rem barrel made by VV. This is without a doubt the best shooting barrel i have ever owned or shot. Bob | |||
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I appreciate the postive comments from Koes and bobg but its not the accuracy level its the being able to fire period. I have FL sized with two different dies one of them was a redding body die and the other hornady fl die. I use a lot of Wilson dies and have a Wilson case guage and it shows the fired and also the resized cases to be very short on headspace. If you open and close many times then the barrel might fire. I am aware of headspacing of contender barrels on the sizing dies. I have changed locking lugs, and checked everything known to me. I'm no expert but do have some idea as to proper loading and resizing. I sent Jeff and email and received a reply that if it would close and fire without a case then it was my brass!!! this is new Remington brass not sized down 222 brass. Everyone have a great Christmas and Thursday I will send barrel back and order another barrel from another supplier of custom barrels. Maybe Jeff can see what is the matter and send back the barrel to me and if he can there will be a Virgin Valley 221 barrel for sale. If not then I have an expensive tomato stake..... | |||
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Sorry to hear about your 221 Tom. I like those guys at VVCG. I have dealt right much with them. There 1 and only mistake with me has been corrected and then some. I know it's a pain to wait, but give them a chance to get it right. | |||
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Jules you have a great Christmas and have a great year ahead. EVERYONE have the same. Tommy (not always a sour head) from SW Mo. | |||
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quote:While I appreciate your right to air your grievances on this forum, please explain the whole situation before doing so. You sent me an e-mail telling me that your gun would not close and fire. That is the only pertinent information that you supplied me. My first guess is going to be brass. With that in mind, I e-mailed you back and asked if the gun would close and fire when empty. You never responded and gave no further info. How am I supposed to fix your problem? You are telling me nothing I can use to help you diagnose it. I�m sorry you are having problems, but I think you jumped the gun a little bit. We had one exchange of e-mails. I was currently waiting for you to message me back with some more info so that I could help you. If you no long want to do business with this company, that�s your decision. If I had it to do over again, I�d have done the exact same thing. | |||
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| <Fireball> |
Fireball [ 12-25-2002, 06:30: Message edited by: Fireball ] | ||
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Jeff I'm sorry but I had talked to you on the phone and told you about my problem. You told me to send the locking lug back and you would grind some off of it. My email was the second email I had sent about this barrel. I would love nothing better than to have it fire. If after talking to you on phone and two emails I'm out of line for posting about this on the board then you have my appolgy. I am sending the barrel back with a letter and hope you will find out and fix and return to me. I believe you are an honorable person and I really try myself to be the same. The bottom line is fix the barrel and I will be the most happy person on the board. I have looked very hard at what I was doing and making sure that I wasn't the problem with this barrel and am to be honest sorry I bought it. This is the place to air problems that one has with a vendor if one has tried to do his best. Tommy PS Have a great Christmas. | |||
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POSTED AT TOMMY's REQUEST > Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 1:16 PM > To: jeffs@infowest.com > Subject: 221 Fireball barrel > > Jeff I bought a 221 fireball this year from Virgin Valley on the shortey > > sale. I can't get it to lock up and shoot most of the time. Open and > shut a few times and then maybe it will fire. I am using two different > sets of FL dies. One is a hornday and the other is Redding FL body die. > > the cases go into a wilson case gauge and show very short headspace. > Then put the case in the barrel and it sticks out some. I am going to > send it back and please check the chamber length and lugs or what ever > you think. I was very proud to get a Virgin Valley barrel but have > pulled my hair out wondering what I was doing wrong and don't think it > was me. I have been reloading for 40 years and reloading for contenders > > 15 years. Any help will be really appreciated. Tommy | |||
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It�s fine that you are sending it back, but I don�t recall ever speaking with you on the phone. (Of course the amount of people I deal with would make remembering our conversation a feat in and of itself). I deal with these problems all day long everyday of the week. When a gun won�t close and fire it is always one of two things. Either the locking bolts are not engaging the safety bar far enough to allow the hammer to drop or the brass is sticking out of the chamber. 99% of the time it turns out to be the brass. I never got an answer as to whether the gun would fire without brass chambered in it. The fault could lie with either party. If it�s my fault, I�ll stand by the work and fix the problem. However sending barrels back and forth is a costly process that could be avoided in a lot of cases. What if it turns out to be your brass? This could have all been avoided with a little more communication. If you are dissatisfied with our company, I completely understand. As the saying goes, you can�t please them all. I do hope in the future with whomever you may deal with that you make yourself a little clearer and open up better channels of communication. It will save you a lot of grief. For those interested, when I get the barrel back, I�ll post if I�m at fault. I�m not afraid of admitting mistakes. I won�t, however, post if I was right. There�s no need of dragging people through the mud. | |||
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Jeff I received your email today and it will be the first of next week when I send it back. I will include two fired cases and two resized cases. Don't know if I have any that haven't been fired but will check. I appreciate your taking it back and checking it out AND if I'm at fault I will shout it loud and clear here on this form. Have a great day | |||
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quote:You know, I have posted on correcting lock up problems many, many times and won't take the time to do it again now, BUT there is no reason to beat up anyone over lockup when it is so absolutely simple to correct. Know your barrel to frame gap. If there is no gap, the barrel may be too long from hinge pin hole to breech end, thus hitting the breech face before it can drop all the way down and lock up. In this situation, first shorten the barrel and create a gap for clearance. MEASURE, NOT GUESS, how far the cases stick out of the barrel, or if they fall below the end of the barrel. If the locking bolts are too high, LOWER THEM. Goes to show you that no matter how experienced and knowledgeable folks may be with bolt guns, break open guns still continue to dumbfound many, perhaps the majority. I have taken exception with Jeff and the VVG crew over tolerances on various parts of barrels, but this time I'm defending him, not that he needs defending. Frames vary, substantially. DEAL WITH IT. It goes with the territory. When all that is required is to either ask VVG for a lower set of locking bolts, or take a few strokes with a Diamond EZE Lap to lower the top surface of the locking bolts where they engage the frame. The problem is simply not worth even the cost of shipping it back. I have always made my own barrels with the locking bolt slot a bit high and have fit every barrel I ever made. It just ain't no big deal. Among other things, I fitted a dozen yesterday afternoon. Sorry about being so blunt, but this topic is labored to death..... I give, for now. Mike | |||
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Mike B what no one is reading is the short headspace on the wilson gauge. Reading what one wants and not all of it. You can FL all you want but the cases still stick out a lot from the chamber. PS I was waiting for you to reply. The barrel will shut and fire without a case. I appreciate your comments. Jeff and I have came to an understanding and as I said I believe he and Virgin Valley to be good people. | |||
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quote:I work for a small factory of less than 50 employees. When it opened up in the early '70's, liability insurance was $2500. By '84 that had increased to $80,000 for liability insurance alone. This business has never been sued over their products, even though the product is considered potentially dangerous, much less dangerous than firearms, but potentially dangerous just the same. When the next price increase put the cost into the six figures, the company became "self-insured", whatever that means. If VVCG carries liability insurance, it is not speculation to say that it is outrageous, and is in the multiples of thousands of dollars. Wake up -- this is the result of making everything idiot proof, just so trial lawyers can find a dumber idiot. | |||
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quote:Yes, it would be nice to hear nothing but praise, but it will never happen. If ya do not make a good barrel, you get legitimate criticism. (Which is probably the reason T/C has shut down receiving email for the time being -- it's happened before, too.) If you make a perfect barrel, certain Wilma Whiners will claim it's too expensive. I once invited Steve to a forum so he could see good comments about your barrels. He responded that he refuses to go to forums because one day you do everything right and the next, there is nothing you can do correct. My experience with you guys has been no less than fantastic. Last year you made a Tactical 20 barrel for me that has gotten as little as a 1/8" group -- it started shooting 1/4" groups right away. This, from a break-open? And how is it that when closed, I just can get a .001 feeler gauge into the gap between barrel and breech, yet it closes with no problem? Some Encore "experts" have told me that there must be more of a gap to allow it to close. And indeed, a 25-06 factory barrel I ordered has a .003 gap -- it had shot 3" groups right away, impressive!! This year, I got a 209x50 barrel from you, same gap -- .001. On the 2d load combination, it got MOA. Two days later, it brought down a 7-point buck (OK, 3X4 out in your part of the woods). This is not to say I believe the gap has much if anything to do with accuracy. It's just one of quite a few things I noticed about your craftsmanship vs T/C BS. The ML barrel did require the forearm hanger to be centered, as the forearm was hard rubbing on one side. This was done by using a flat bladed driving device (ok, a screwdriver) than fit in the dovetail and driving the pin over a bit. That took all of 30 seconds. Wish making the 25-06 barrel shoot 3/4" groups would have been so easy! I know this is a pistol forum, and that both of these barrels from VVCG are rifle barrels, but since this particular topic is about barrels, I just had to add this. And I also know that you bend over backwards to satisfy a customer. Not to put a sour note onto this post, but as an example, I ordered a scope mount installed on the 209x50. Barrel came with no mount. Steve had it sent with a hammer spur as an apology. Jeff, you're going to get kicked around by some no matter what you do. Forgive them, for they know not what they do. | |||
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| one of us |
quote:tommyn, Headspace guages are meaningful if you are shooting factory ammo, but if one reloads, as you do, then what a guage indicates really does not matter. As you and I have discussed, many reloading dies are too long inside, purposely, so that people cannot push shoulders back too far and create excess headspace. So if you combine a chamber on the short side and a size die on the long side of tolerances, you will have cases sticking out too far from the end of the barrel. Being true to form, THE Heretic, I feel it is better to set barrels up to shoot ammo instead of guages. If we on the one hand hold religiously to guages, then the vast majority of reloaders are in violation of the standards that guages are meant to maintain, that is a maximum total deviation in headspace amounting to no more than .006." Recall again, that the locations of the barrel hinge pin holes vary by at least .003" that I have seen so far, and it could be much more than that. Thus, for example, if one uses a Wilson guage and determines that his sized cases are in the middle of the .006" range per the guage, and his frame is on the long side, .003" or more longer than average, then he in fact has excess headspace. I know your problem is negative headspace, ie, cases too long. I am just using this for an example. The point is that I feel one should take all the guages and gizmos and basically throw them in the trash. Instead, being the sophisticated shooters and reloaders we are here on "Accurate Reloading," I suggest getting a handle on chambers and headspace and make the ammo fit the gun, regardless of how the chamber is cut. And being able to accurately measure 1) the barrel to frame gap, and 2) how far the case head sticks out of the barrel, or heaven forbid falls below the end of the barrel, is paramount to making ammo that fits your given barrel and frame combination. In your situation, simply shortening the die will shorten the cases sufficiently unless the chamber is radically short, which I would not expect from VVG. I know I can get pretty cras, but I still recall the guy who called me wanting headspace guages for 8mm-06 Ackley Imp. My retort was, "What do you shoot, ammo or guages? Cut the chamber to fit the ammo you make!" He probably thought I was the south end of a north bound mule..... but the principle holds true, whether one likes the personality behind it or not. I'm sure VVG will fix you up to your satisfaction, but for the benefit of others with similar fit problems, hopefully you will get something from this. All the best, Mike | |||
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| one of us |
Mike I have a sign on the wall in my office that finishes this thread between you and my self and that sign is No reaction, no satifaction. | |||
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| <Thumper> |
[ [ 01-14-2003, 03:35: Message edited by: Thumper ] | ||
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