XP,

I will be interested to see what Hodgdon can do loading the 25 WSSM. My personal opinion of the case is mixed. In a rifle, I quess I would be hard pressed to pick it over the more established, conventional rounds such as the 22-250, 243/6mm and the 25-06.

Still it is a very useful and interesting design.

That said, from a single shot rifle or handgun, this case has great potential. Basically giving us 06 capacity in a BR designed case, especially if it is impoved.

Very interesting project, keep me posted on what you find out and decide to do.

Good Shooting!!

50

If you had a Center-Grip XP (Bolt face size of your choosing) what cartridge would you choose if you could choose any you wanted?
This would be a sporter weight to heavy sporter tapered barrel. Would be capable up to deer sized animals (likely dual purpose). Has to be at least a 308 Win. case capacity.

Factory or Wildcat makes no difference.
What cartridge?

Dream away ....then share your thoughts.

For me, the capacity would not exceed the family of .308 WCF cartridges. My choice would be the 6.5x.308 (.260 Rem) as I feel a 120 grain BT at 2700 fps (14-15" bbl) will take care of any deer that ever walked out to 300 yards and beyond -- and 300 yards is truly stretching it for even many experienced pistoleros. I can ring silhouettes all day at much longer ranges, but when it comes to deer, I do everything in my abilities to try and get within 250 yards -- and I prefer being inside 200.

When the quarry is more sturdily built or tougher than deer, the 125 grain Partition at 2650 fps is just the ticket.

My second choice fitting your parameters: the 7mm-08 with a 140 grain Nosler BT at 2600 fps.

XPhunter,

Right now the single most impressive handgun round I have ever used on deer out of an XP-100 is my 338 WSM. I know this is overkill for deer but there is no questioning the effectiveness of the 338 bore. Basically, its a 338-06 rifle in a handgun.

Still, for a dual purpose XP, it is to much of a good thing. I would have to say that I would not go under the 284 case capacity if the barrel was at least 15".

While 300 yards is a good long shot on deer, on varmints and such, I will often double this range. Because of that, I want more case capacity then the 308 family.

XP's tend to act more like big bore revolvers than rifles. They seem to generate good velocities with heavy bullets easier then fast velocities with light bullets.

Because of this, I would be hard pressed between the 6.5-284 and the 6.5 WSM. If I would be hunting deer the vast majority of the time, I would go with the WSM. If I would be varminting alot, I would go with the 284 case. Either way, I woul duse a 1-8" barrel and shoot the 140 gr A-Max.

Good Shooting!!!

50

xphunter;
You did not mention the range.
Since you both know my taste run to the bigger bores,and with what I have found with the 300RUM XP I would go with bigger case size than fiftydrivers 338WSM and go with the 338 or the 375.
J.D. is about done with my 50 off the weathebry case 2".About 95 grains of water.It was a 375/284XP from him.I like the 375 bore so my next one will be a 375 RUM.I only got to shoot some ground hogs here before I sent it off.but that 200gr Serria,and 220gr Hornady is awesome on ground hogs.Shot a crow at about 50 feet with the 200 Serria it looked like a cartoon.
But since you want above 308 cases.How about a 30/350 REM MAG.Short fat more usable barrel,30/06 case size.But since it is short and fat,it does wear a belt.Plus you have the 6.5REM MAG
With the 300RUM deer are just devestated.even at the longer ranges,shot 3 at a farmers house off a picnick table with my rest and bags over 300 yds.165gr nosler a little ove 3100fps.but barrel life is going to be short.So if you go to a bigger bore then barrel life would be better.
But then AGAIN I have been running some 7mm RUM numbers and they really look good.But then like Bobby said the 7-08 is a great choice.Mine is a very good shooter.

6.5xRSAUM neck down 7RSAUM. BY THE WAY PUT SAVAGE BOLT FACE ON REM BOLT AND CHANGE TO ANY BOLT FACE FOR UNDER $25

Fantastic suggestions. After doing some research, talking with some technical people and checking ballistics out on Exbal I came up with a couple of possibilities.
Building a 25 WSSM (16 inch barrel) that is capable of shooting the Berger 117 VLD. Likely a Hart or Broughton (spelling?) barrel. When fitting this barrel it would be set-up for switch barrel, so the next one would be the 7 WSM (Schnieder barrel) set-up for 140 NBT's & Accubonds and maybe some VLD's for steel. Contours would be the same on both barrels. This would give me the ability to do any of the WSM's or WSSM's with this XP.
What are your thoughts or comments now?

XP,

That would be a great way to go as well. So many options so little time(spell that MONEY!!)

Any way, the WSSM in 25 caliber is the best of the three from my way of thinking.

I have been tempted to get a reamer made for the 7mm WSSM and rechamber my 7mm BR. Brass will be easier to get here very quickly and performance would be at 7mm08 or better.

You would have the ability to use a wide range of rounds using that bolt face.

I always thought about using my 22-250 AI reamer to build a long range varminter on an XP, but you just got me thinking about the 25 WSSM instead!

Damn, another project, guess I better go build some more rifles so I can pay for all this playing.

Good Shooting!!

let us know what you decide!

50

"Any way, the WSSM in 25 caliber is the best of the three from my way of thinking." Hey 50, why would u pick the 25 over the .24 version?

SS,

If you look at equal bullet weights for the two, for comparision lets look at the 95 gr Ballistic Tip in .243" and 100 gr in .257".

First lets look at teh B.C. numbers for these two bullets.

95 gr .243": .379
100 gr .257": .393

If we look at the parent case having the same capacity for both calibers, going to the larger, higher B.C. 25, we get several advantages.

First off, even if they both produce the same velocity(which they will not) the 25 bullet will shoot flatter and hit harder with more energy and frontal area.

Given the larger bore, the 25 is able to use slightly quicker powders which will produce slightly higher velocities out of the 15-17" barrels used.

Also, The larger caliber bullets of nearly the same weight have less baring surface then the .243" bullet. This decreases bore friction, increasing velocity.

Its the same pricipal behind why the 338 WSM will drive a 180 gr bullet significantly faster then the 300 WSM will drive a 180 gr.

Only thing in that comparision though is that the 300 bullets have better B.C. numbers then the 338.

In the case of the 243 vs 25, that is not the case, in fact even with bullet weights of the same, the 25 generally has higher B.C. numbers then the 243 or at least very similiar.

The larger bore also reduces the problem of rapid bore fouling. The smaller the bore, the quicker it will foul for a given case capacity. One only has to compare the 17 Mack IV to the 17 Rem to see that. And then compare the 17 Rem to the 223 and it really becomes a dramatic difference.

It is not nearly to dramatic comparing the 243 to the 25 but there is a difference.

Good Shooting!!!

50

Do you think that the ideal case design / size for a LR XP-100 would be somewhere between the 25WSSM and the 25 WSM?
A improved 25 WSSM?

XP,

Built on the platform of a single shot handgun or rifle, I see a great benefit improving the WSSM. It has a long shoulder that could be sharpened up to 35 or even 40 degrees and offer a very usable increase in case capacity.

In a 15 to 17" barrel, I would say that you are right on about the effective case size used in the XP being about half way between the WSSM and the WSM. Especially when dealing with bore diameters under 270-7mm.

.308" bores I feel can use the full WSM case and perhaps even a little more in the longer XP barrels.

Going up to the 338 and 375 bores, even the full length cases are usable, very loud but usable.

For the 25 caliber, I would say the 25-06 AI would be about the largest case volume that would eb a good balance in an xp length barrel.

This is slightly larger then the WSSM AI would be but there are other advantages to the WSSM. The biggest being that the shorter length would provide a substanial increase in usable barrel over the 06 AI. Basically this would cancel out any advantage the 06 AI had in capacity.

Since the WSSM case is so stubby, the AI version would only be practical in a single shot platform. Feeding out of a Magazine would be difficult at best with a 35 or 40 degree shoulder but in a single shot, you would have the benefit of the stopping of case stretching and the better centering of the bullet with the bore that the sharper shoulder provides.

Not to mention, it would looks pretty cool for sure!!! If a round LOOKS fast, then thats half the battle, right!!

Good Shooting!!! That would be a very interesting round in the XP-100 or Striker handguns.

50

50,
It sure is enjoyable to listen to someone who thinks along the lines that I do. Hodgdon will start testing the 25 WSSM in 3 weeks. Sounds like a great cartridge (especially improved) to me. I did get your e-mail, and I was pleased with what I read.

Sigh...It seems there is no one to stand up for the poor 6mm anywhere to be found! 50 makes some good points, but I think the differences are more on the order of splitting hairs than practical differences. The 100gr .257" has a bit in the area of BC, but the 95gr 6mm has a better SD which will give it more penetration (eventhough it will be traveling a bit slower since bullet design and SD have more to do with penetration than velocity). Suffice it to say that I have no vested interest in what caliber is chosen, but I still will not believe that you can say one choice is heads and shoulders over the others. I think all the options that you've mentioned Ernie are great ones. The .25 will no doubt give you more power over the 6mm (albeit just a bit). Without a doubt, the 6mm has better target type bullets available for it, which would turn it into a better long range paper puncher so take that into consideration if that will be a use for this gun/barrel combo. I've sure enjoyed reading all the stuff from this thread and 50 has given a lot of cool info as well. This allows me to live vicariously as I doubt I'll ever have a similar "toy".

B_Koes,

I can not argue that the difference in the two calibers is relatively small but there will be a difference.

I also agree with you that the 95 gr 6mm will on average out penetrate the 100 gr .257 but both offer plenty of penetration for deer size game. I have used the 100 gr B. Tip at over 3500 fps on deer size game, some quite large deer in fact and have never had a problem punching through the vitals.

That said, I would estimate that the 25 WSSM would be able to drive a 115 gr Ballistic Tip nearly as fast as the 243 WSSM could drive the 95 gr B. Tip.

In that case we are dealing with a bullet with a B.C. in the low to mid .400 range and with a S.D. of .250. This has as much penetration advantage over the 95 gr 6mm as the 95 6mm has over the 100 rg .257 bullet.

I was only using the 95 vs 100 gr comparision as XP is looking for a dual purpose handgun and the 100 gr .257 B. Tip would serve this well without ever changing loads through the season.

Of course if your looking for a true varmint bullet, the 85 gr Ballsitic Tip of 75 gr V-Max will outperform all the lightweight 6mm bullets in trajectory, energy and wind drift. Plus, the larger, heavier bullet of the same fragile construction will prove much more dramatic on impact then the 6mm bullets.

Here again, I suspect the 25 WSSM loaded with the 85 gr B. Tip would equal the velocity of the 70 gr B. Tip in the 6mm WSSM.

Good Shooting!!

50

For whatever it's worth, I jumped over to Hodgdon's site to compare some data.



.223 WSSM vs. .243 WSSM (both 24" barrel)



The 58gr .243 has about 200fps advantage (on average) over the 55gr .223. Granted different chamber/barrel combinations affect velocity greatly so I checked another combo.



.243 vs. .260



Granted this is comparing 100gr .243" bullets to 95gr .264" but the difference is pretty dramatic between them...maybe about 300fps.



This was interesting as I didn't know the difference was this dramatic. So I will reiterate my earlier statement in a different manner. Why limit yourself to a .257" caliber when you can benefit from bigger bores?



It still seems to me that caliber choice is a very personal thing as everything is a trade-off. You have to give up something to get something. The specific location in the spectrum depends upon expected range, anticipated power needs, type of game (either animal or target), shooting conditions, etc. Always so many things to consider... Are you soaking all of this in Ernie?

One of the reasons i picked the .243 WSSM for my Striker project, is that i wanted the highest BC pure varmint bullet made-- the 87 gr. Hornady V-Max (BC .4) for LR coyote shooting, although i know that terminal ballistics is so variable that it's hard to come up with any standard. Gotta go got a baby at the door-- jeezzz.

Check out the 110gr .277" VMAX... BC of .400

I guess NOW we need a .270 WSM

Yes, I am soaking all of this in.

No decisions are set yet.

6MM is still a possibility, especially for the LR target/steel potential with high bullet selection. A lightweight 6.5-284 built with the same neck as my heavy 6.5-284 is another possibility.

The heavy just turned in a 5 shot group @ 100 yards measuring .470 with four of the shots @ .184!

Yes, it is a shooter. No chronoing yet.

B_Koes,

I will agree with you that for purely terminal ballistic properties, the larger bores would be much more efficent at longer ranges.

And I will agree with SS and you that for a purely varmint set up, the 6mm would be near the best of all worlds.

Problem is that XP stated he wanted a dual purpose varmint/deer round capable of shooting to longer ranges for both game.

THe larger bores can be used very well for varmint hunting but if you do any volume shooting at all, bullet cost really adds up, as does the recoil factor after hundreds of rounds.

In the rifle world, there are very few rounds that will run toe to toe with a properly loaded 25-06. An 85 gr Ballistic Tip at 22-250 velocities is simply awsome on varmint, still it is a rarity to see the 25-06 used in high volume shooting for several factors.

On the other side of the coin, yes the 6mm would perhaps be nearly fully up to the performance of the 25 for varminting, but on larger game, the 25 will have a clear advantage.

TO agree with you, I would also say that the 6.5mm would be every bit as good as the 25 as there is only 0.007" difference in bullet diameter and still has a great selection of varmint up through VLD designs. THe more I think about it the 6.5 WSSM would be a great choice as well. Still bullet price is increased.

A dual purpose handgun is really a compromise. It really is not the best at either varminting or deer hunting, still it is very good at both and serves teh hunter very well compared to a specialized hunting handgun designed for a single purpose.

Good Shooting!!

50

50,

You just need to get that 6.5 WSM XP built so I can see what it's peformance is. That will give me a better idea of whether I go with 6, 25, or 6.5. I'm set on one of two case designs WSM/WSSM or the 284 parent case.

Some preliminary load development has turned out good so far with 5-shot sub .5 groups and sevceral 4-shot groups measuring in in the high .1's and .2's.

MV's are running around 2640 to 2700 fps. Still working up in grain amount with two different powders (H-4350 & H-4831).



PS A litle clarification on my definition of dual purpose in this case. Primarily a hunting handgun, with secondary use on varmints (PD's) and LR steel (LR hunting/tactical clinics, etc.). With the 7.82 Patriot I don't want or need a 7mm or .277 bore. I have a 22-250 AI MOA, 260 Rem MOA, 250 Sav. AI, and my 6.5-284 (heavy barrel) that I can switch in and out for long bouts of dog shooting.

XP,

Well the barrels ordered, did it today, will be here in 6-8 weeks.

I would totally agree with Mr. Tannel about the H-S stocks, I have the old Fajen thumbhole stocks on mine that have been extensively modified into ambi grips by removing the bridge on the thumbhole and opening up the blind trigger guard.

I know that throating in a seperate step has alot of benefits to it, you can make custom throats for each customer. Just somewhere in the back of my mind, it bothers me that even though I use the piloted reamers, there is still the possiblity of increasing variation between the chamber and throat.

With good tooling, this is not a major concern, but with a throat cutting chambering reamer, there is no possible way for them to not be perfectly concentric to each other.

I guess I give up a little flexibility for my own piece of mind. Just a personal thing, all us smiths have our own crazy ideas that bring us all to the same point so to speak.

You are also correct in the tight throat saves on the barrel. It limits the amount of gas cutting by limiting the amount of gas getting around the bullet when fired.

And it certainly centers the bullet to the axis of the bore, not much room to get out of alignment with only 0.0002" to play in.

Good Shooting!!!

50

50,
A gunsmith friend of mine, who is also a member where I preach is converting a thumbhole for a 250 savage AI XP of mine. He is not going to the detail in the bedding process you are though.
"Barrels?"
How many/brand and what calibers/twist did you order?
I do look forward to more posts and or conversations in these things. If you have unlimited long distance or extra cell minutes feel free to call me at my office when you are taking a break.
620-662-3923

XP,

"Barrels" refers to the order I put in to Lilja. Two of the barrels are for myself. They are:

15" heavy sporter stainless steel
-3 groove, .264"
-1-8" twist
-Roughly #7 contour, .700" at the muzzle.
(went with the 15" because Lilja charges full rifle barrel price for anything over 15". Thats an $80.00 increase for 2" of barrel) Might loose 100 fps at the most but will still be a hell of a long range XP hunting barrel.

30", 1.200" straight cylinder, stainless steel
-.224"
-1-8"
-3 groove
THis will be fitted to a Ruger M77VT rifle using a barrel bedding block system and chambered for the 22-6mm AI. I will use the 80 gr Sierra VLD bullets in this rifle.

The other barrels I ordered were also Lilja barrels, all rifle barrels in .257", 7mm and .308" for customers rifles.

I use Lilja barrels exclusively if it is my choice. If my customers perfer another brand, I will go with whatever they perfer but I like to keep my barrel business at home here in Montana if possible. Not saying his are better then the other "best" quality barrels, just like to support local shops as I'm sure you do as well.

I will have to take you up on your offer to chat. Got your phone message. Just need to take the time to give you a call now. Once I get in the shop, tend to stay there most of the day, or I'm on the range.

Look forward to talking with you as always!

Good Shooting!!

50

50,
When you have time, please send me your price list. At least the portion of it that would apply to our conversations.
3307 Rockwood Drive
Hutchinson, KS 67502

I will soon be testing a 222 Rem MAg Imp HArt barrel with a 1-7 twist that should shoot the Sierra's 80 VLD.
In a G-2! Believe it or not!

B_Koes,

The Sierra Matchkings were one of the original VLD designs and in my mind, still one of the best out there, especially for what they cost. You can spend alot more for the same quality bullet from s custom maker.

I have not shot Mr. Knox's bullets. Have read about them and they sound like very quality bullets but I have never needed to go much farther then the Sierra MK or Hornady A-Max. I have used Bergers VLD's quite a bit as well and they perform very nicely.

IF you are puching good velocities, like over 3300 fps, the SIerra MK is one of the best and from 3400 to 3500 fps, it is perhaps the best on the market at least in a conventional cup jacketed bullet.

A 90 gr VLD would interest me as well, I would imagine my 22-6mm AI with its 30" barrel might stabilize that bullet with its 1-8" twist. DO you have a contact for his company?

Good Shooting!!

50

XP,

What barrel length will you be testing, had a customer asking what a 15" 223 Rem barrel would do with a fast twist and VLD bullets. WOuld be very similiar to your 222 RMag.

Would be very interested in your testing results so I can pass them on to my customer if you do not mind.

50

My barrel length will be 16.75 inch Hart barrel. With almost two more inches of barrel and an improved case there will be some differences, but it should give him a good idea.

I've been shooting a 15" Van Horn barrel in .223 AI with 1-8" twist. I haven't done a lot of testing as most of my chances for shooting are at silhouette matches where the utmost in accuracy is not required...at least for full sized animals. I have shot 69gr Noslers, 80gr Bergers, 80gr Starke, 75gr JLK bullets and soon I will give the 75gr Hornady AMAX a try (just loaded up about 50 of 'em).



I have now started using fireformed brass and I am currently loading 24gr of 2460 under 75 & 80gr bullets. I suspect the 80gr loads are traveling around 2400fps because they are not causing any target damage. Generally chickens will start to show damage around 2600fps. I know this isn't very scientific, but it's all I have to go on at the moment. I hope to have some chronograph data in the next couple of weeks.



I agree that the Sierra 80gr bullets are very good, but I thought that VLD design's were those with at least a 10 radius ogive. The Sierra's look a bit more blunt than that. The Bergers and JLK's have a 12 ogive and are considerably "sleeker".



I'll have to get back with you on the contact info for Jimmy Knox. I've got the number at home, but I can't find the piece of paper I brought to work...

B_Koes,

I will be trying the 75 gr V-Max out fo my 22-6mm AI first as it will be an extreme range varmint round first and formost and the on game performance of the A-Max is much better then the Sierra for a given caliber.

My 6mm-284 is plenty accurate to hit chucks at 1000 yards using the 107 gr Sierra but unless you get a head hit, you will generally loose the chuck to its den.

As far as defining what it take to be a VLD bullet, I honestly have not ever heard any set in stone criteria for a bullet design to get this make.

In general, they have long tapered boat tails, long full caliber body sections and a long fine pointed HP nose.

I generally classify VLD bullets by the B.C. they have for a given caliber. If they offer a certain B.C. I concider them VLDs.

Here is my personal B.C. critera per caliber:

.224" +.400
.243" +.475
.257" +.500
.264" +.530
.284" +.580
.308" +.625
.338" +.700
.510" +.900

Any bullet for any of these calibers that equal or better the B.C. listed, I feel at least can be considered a VLD, which by definition "Very Low Drag" simply means they have a very high B.C. for their caliber.

There are several conventional bullets that get close to these numbers such as the heavier Accubonds in certain calibers but it takes a true VLD design to actually make or beat these values.

I have found that often, a bullet with a bit blunter nose like the Sierra Mk will often have just as high a B.C. as a sharper nose profiled bullet such as the A-Max or Berger line. There is much more to high B.C. values then nose profile from what I see.

About your 223 AI in silhouette matches, how is the momentum of the 80 gr bullets on the long range rams when started out at 2400 fps?

Good Shooting, good discussion as well, I too am extremely interested in fast twist calibers of all sizes, in rifles and handguns.

50

If you can get a poly-tipped VLD bullet to shoot good it usually does better on your vertical grouping since the tip is all exactly alike. Something that is not the case with non-poly tipped VLD's. Small differences can make difference atlong range.

50,
Do you shoot the A-Max's out of your rifles?
What weight bullet & MV?

Sierra's data barely meets your criteria for VLD (.420 and .400 at the velocities I'm consistently dealing with) while JLK's 80gr bullet is labeled with a .510 BC and Berger's 80gr is given a .489. Comparing the JLK design to the Berger, the only apparent difference is a rebated boattail on the JLK. Both of them have a slightly longer boattail than the SMK and a more pointed ogive. Now I understand that BC is a bit of a mystical number as it is dependent upon velocity, atmospheric conditions, and the angle of head tilt by the shooter. It seems to me that the only way to REALLY figure BC for a bullet is to measure muzzle velocity and then put your chrono at risk and measure velocity at a given distance. The result will be an "average" BC over the distance in question. The cynic in me wonders just how much BC's are used as marketing tools as bullets of similar construction often are quoted with different BC's among bullet manufacturers.



Anyway, about the momentum for my pistola. I estimate it is something around .74 lbs/sec. I have rung a couple targets but I had to laugh when one of my buddies rang two rams with his 7 BR and I only rang one.

Jimmy Knox's (JLK) # is 479-331-4194. He's a great guy to speak to, and will take some time with u. Allie Euber's putting out a nice 6mm 108 VLD (BC around .530-550). His VLD sounds good since it has a larger meplat to help aid in long-range terminal ballistics (I'm hoping at least on coyotes out of my Striker .243 WSSM).

One of the good things about JLK bullets is that he makes some little known 22 cal. Low Drags (VLD without the boattail) that can be shot out of slower twists. In fact as far as i know they are the only high BC option for slower twist (factory) barrels-- 52gr./14 twist/BC=.302---60/12/.339---65/10 (factory 223 WSSM barrels)/.393.

XP,

I shoot the A-Max bullet a little in my long range rigs. In my 50 BMG, I use the 750 gr A-Max exclusively and load it to just shy of 2700 fps. Has produced some nearly 1/2 moa 1000 yard groups for me and a couple one shot kills on chucks between 900 and 1000 yards.

I tested the 105 gr 6mm A-Max in my 6mm-284 and was very happy with it until velocities reached 3250 fps and accuracy went to pots instantly. As did the Berger 105's. Only the Sierra allowed me to take the velocity into the +3500 fps range and still stay accurate.

I will be using the 75 gr A-Max in the 22-6mm AI but fear that this round will also produce more velocity then the A-Max can handle. May have to look into the JKL bulles and see how they handle the velocity.

Good Shooting!!

50

B_Koes,

Shooters are always intimidated by testing their velocity at 100 yards to check B.C. and even farther ranges is better.

Just remember what size groups you are shooting at 100 yards. Hopefully well under moa. Sight your handgun in on target and then set your chrony up around that target.

When chronotesting at longer ranges(anything past muzzle velocity) it is important to set your chrony up around your target that you are zeroed on. Do not try to shoot through your chrony at 100 yards. Again if your shooting under 1 moa, if you set your chrony up around a target that you are zeroed on, you will never come close to hitting your chrony unless something really goes wrong.

Good Shooting!!!

50

It's not surprising that you are having trouble with A-Max's at higher MV's. The 1,000 yard boys have found this out too. Amax's have a very thin jacket and are susceptible to being upset by high MV's and or deep rifling. The same has been found with the Clinch River. The great thing with Specialty handguns is that our MV's are just low enough to use these bullets--Yeehaw. 140 A-Max's have done great in my 6.5-284 so far. Just got 300 more today that I will use for a little more development then start moving back to 200 & 300 yards group checking.

XP,

I almost forgot that I am using the 140 gr 6.5mm A-Max in my 6.5-06 AI. My wife got me a comercial Mauser 98 action for a Christmas present a last year and I threw it in an older Fajen Varminter stock and machined a cheapy A&B barrel to fit it.

This barrel has a 1-9" twist and I was uncertain if it would shoot the 140 A-Max but it has averaged right at 1" groups at 300 yards with out of that rifle and barrel. THe bore fouls more then a top quality barrel but I clean every 25-30 rounds anyway so it doesn't matter much.

I am driving those to 3050 fps out of the 26.5" A&B barrel. This rifle is good advertisement for customers. I let them shoot this rifle and see how well it shoots and then tell them the componants used to make it. Its a good confidence booster knowing that proper machining will also make lower priced barrels shoot better them nearly any factory built rifle.

Anyway, I would agree with you, out of our specialty handguns, the A-Max bullets could possibly be the best long range hunting/target combo bullet yet. This will be the bullet I try first in my 6.5 WSM.

My goal is to get within 100 fps of the velocity that my 6.5-06 AI is getting out of the rifle, will have to see though.

Have a good weekend!

Good Shooting!!!

50