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Let me suggest the that the "mystique" of the 1911 is unique to the USA. Ditto for the 45 ACP caliber. This mind set renders some folks incapable of appreciating advances in design, engineering and technology. There is a similar "mystique" about the Mauser action, with similar drawbacks! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Golly, guess that is the reason that most IPSC raceguns are 1911 based. Must be the challenge of making that old junk work. Mike -------------- DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ... Knifemaker, http://www.mstarling.com | |||
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Well Mike, I don't want to get in a big argument with you, but isn't that a bit like saying that most weapons in service rifle contests are AR15's and M 14's? As I recollect wasn't IPSC designed around the 1911 and the 45ACP? I have a racegun in 9x21, an EAA Gold team (I believe, maybe Silver Team), comp, red dot sight, racker etc. Not sure that is what I would want for a carry gun for example. IPSC is a very specialized discipline that has been gamed to the n'th degree. IDPA (IMHO) is going the same way but is less "specialized". Personally, I like the DA/SA as opposed to the pure SA in my carry gun, for example. The hammer drop safety is another feature that I like in a carry gun but would not be an advantage in IPSC. But, my point is that these are features that came after the 1911 and, some at least, consider them to be an advance over the 1911. Bottom line is that I for one do not believe that the linked barrel and grip safety are the epitome of pistol design. I understand that this might be considered sacrilege in some circles. I do own a Colt 1911, comped, in 38 Super, but I also own a couple of Glocks and a Sig P220! I would refer you to a long line of threads on this forum of folks spending $1500 on a 1911 so that it is "reliable"! IPSC raceguns seem to be running over two grand as I recollect. (I also own a Blaser rifle!)! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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I'd disagree. The design endures because the design works. Low pressure and reliable feeding. We "Brits" used the Colt 1911, in .45" ACP and .455" Automatic, as a "control" against Webley's own Mark 1 .455" Auto Pistol in various official trials. The figures for stoppages make, even today, interesting reading. The Colt celebrates its "one hundredth" this year. The Webley Mk 1 .455"? It barely made in past the 1920s! | |||
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Over the years it has been well established that owner tinkering has caused most 'reliability' problems. Like when the IPSC crowd started putting comps on to dampen recoil. It an easy gun to swap parts on and that induces people to tinker. | |||
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My 1911's, specifically Colt series 80 CCO's function flawlessly and have never had a dime dropped on them yet after hundreds of rounds with the exception of tritium night sights. I guess i'm in the love 1911's club.  | |||
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Interesting comments here: "The whole cocked and locked thing, as we know now in hindsight, it’s time has come and gone. For the average guy, it’s just not the best choice. I would say the lighter of the two LEMs is the way to go". See this thread and link to article in Glock Talk: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1323412 Of course, I understand that the readers and contributors to AR are not "average guys". Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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I bought my Colt Combat Elite in 1989. I've run thousands of rounds through it w/only two broken slide stops. When it happened, both times during qualification, I just shoved it back in place, counted my shots and went on w/no further problems. One does not need to be an armorer to carry a 1911 or any other weapon for that manner in a civilian or civilian law enforcement capacity. One does need to know how to properly clean, lube and reassemble though. Replacing parts during a military operation is a whole nother ballgame. Replacing parts in a s(&%storm is what backup guns/tranistion drill are for. Robert If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy. Thomas Jefferson, 1802 | |||
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Glock SUX | |||
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Peter: I understand your point, and agree in concept. The same can be said about the pre-64 model 70. (I have to laugh at guys who almost come to tears whenever the phrase "pre-64 is uttered.) I happen to be a 1911 guy. I own three at the moment, maybe more, I'd have to check. I've carried one for years. Still do. But I am equally comfortable with a DA/SA design. I just prefer the 1911 and have no issues with it. I buy good ones, slick 'em up and move on. They work for me. Glocks and similar designs are great guns, I just don't like them. But they work, and they work, and they work. Hard to argue with that. Yet I still don't like them. Personal taste, not pragmatic judgement. There will never be the "perfect" design in a personal defense handgun. Ever. Too many variables in shooters' physiology, skills, and myriad other factors. But there are designs that are more easy to use and are more reliable than others. One just has to find what works best for them. But your point is reasonable and well put. As for the history of lawmen and guns, the truth is that some model of S&W or Colt revolver, along with Ithaca and Remington pump shotguns have knocked down more bads guys than all the 1911's combined. 114-R10David | |||
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for me pretty hard to argue with the 1911's service record in the millitary. if it works for them--- for years and years. I tend to believe it will work for me! | |||
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Lot of guns work as well (and in some ways better) as the 1911 that simply haven't had the time in service to develop a legend. So many in fact, that its unlikely to happen by virtue of the dilution of opportunity. That doesn't make them any less suited for the purpose. If I had to go into combat with a handgun I'd like (a) more than 7-8 rounds, (b) DA/SA capability and (c) useable sights. If I had to go into combat with the 1911 system, I'd rather have the Ballester Molina with no grip safety than a standard 1911 with one (I'm limiting this discussion to as-issued sidearms, not tweaked commercial products). I will agree that the 45 ACP is the better of the military auto pistol rounds fielded over the years. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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I have to agree with Peter . There are better designs out there today. As a long time lew emfocement instructor I recommend some thing other the cocked and locked for duty use. People who say they can't shoot a double to single action auto just haven't paractice enough. I was out shooting my 8 shot 45 the other day and after shooting Hi cap autos for years I said to myself this thing doesn't hold enough rounds. But if you want to carry a 1911 have at it. I prefer others. As for the 45acp with good bullets its a decent defenseive round along with several others. IPSC was designed by Cooper to give advanage to the 1911 and the 45acp round. You don't see as many 1911's in the other defensive shooting sports. RVL III I seen other designs go through 10000's of thousands of rounds with out a breakage In the Mil trails the 92 surpassed the others and the 1911 standard by many thoundsand more rounds. During the 10 plus years my dept carried Ruger P89's 500 plus guns. I shot 10000's plus rounds through mine it never had a bit of trouble as the dept armorer I never saw one fail. We shot lots of +P+ rounds. Other then due to shooter error. During the last 5 years of carring glocks I put around 8000 rounds through mine. It is still going strong. At least it was when I turned it in when I retired a couple of months ago. | |||
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I think enfieldspares nails it. The 1911 was ergonomic before they invented the word ergonomic. It works. It just flat works. The Marines didn't stick with it as their MEU (SOC) sidearm out of some mistaken nostalgia or chauvanism. They're not still flying Corsairs, are they? The 1911 is in the same category as the Ma Deuce. Both John Browning designs, by the way. Nobody's managed to improve on them. At least, not so much that you need to give up on what you have and move on to the next big thing. The Mauser M98 also fits in that category, so you don't think I'm guilty of unabashed Americanism. Who here has a M98 and can't imagine doing without one? | |||
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I have a 98 and could do with out it. Thats why John browning came up with the P35/Hi power design to do away with the defects in the 1911 design. No grip safety, higher mag cap and Better ergonomics. Browning designed the frist pistols with out a crip safety that was force onto him by the milltary. The same flaw logic of the milltary that kept the 1911 45 around caused the M1 grand to have a 8 shot clip instead of a detachable mag. Once we have it we don't want to get rid of even if something is better out there. | |||
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I'll have to disagree. I shot my Uncle's high power extensively and I didn't find it any more ergonomic than a 1911. The opposite was the case. "Higher mag cap" and "ergonomic" just don't belong together in the same sentence when referring to the HP as opposed to the 1911. The absence of a grip safety may have been a step up. I don't know. The grip safety seems to function transparently with any reasonable hand-hold and has never occurred to me to be an issue. If you have a mauser you can do without, I'll take it off your hands. I'm a nice guy. You won't have to pay anything more than shipping and handling. The rest, I'll do for free. | |||
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Personnaly I find the Hi power to fit,feel and point better then any 1911 ever will. I also find the Hi cap 45 and 10mms to be to large for my hands also. I have lots of things I can do with out and don't need. Doesn't mnean I'll give them away. For the right amount of money most every thing is for sale. | |||
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To each their own. But we are arguing about which pistol designed by a guy who died in 1926 is better. From any perspective in 2011, that's a tribute. | |||
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Whaty advances in designe, arn't all pistol recoil opperated? I think so 1911's can and or made on polyimer frames _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Look jwp if you are looking for a p...ing contest count me out. Sorry I have no time. What makes a 1911 unique? let me suggest the linked barrel, the grip safety and the single action only capability. If you think that all of these are the epitome of pistol design then good for you. I don't. I suggested that there are better designs out there, both for accuracy and for self defense purposes. You of course may have your own opinions. For the record, I own a Gold Cup (with Kart barrel), a Kimber Classic Target, a Kimber Pro Carry HDII in 38 Super etc. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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And how does any of those make the 1911 inferior? answer, they don't. If you don't want to be dissagereed with then don't post. I call a spade a spade and I could not dissagree more with your assesment. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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No mystique at all about the Mauser 98. Fact is that there have been different designs, but they really haven't bettered the old Mauser in the least...... Do you think that there will be dozens of companies making their own copies of Glocks 100 years from now? I strongly doubt it....... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Packed a 1911 in Vietnam, haven't been without at least one ever since. Semper Fi | |||
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Well Marko, I think that you are partly correct. 100 years from now I am sure that there will be American companies producing 1911 type guns. There may even be American companies like S&W producing Glock "improvements". However the German (and perhaps Israeli) companies will be designing, engineering and manufacturing the next generation of handguns. They will be selling them to civilians as well as the police forces and militaries of the world. They will also be designing, engineering and manufacturing the next generation of bolt action rifles after the Blaser. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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I own and have shot literally thousands through the two extremes, the 1911's and the Glock, both in .45 ACP. First off, I am a fairly skilled handgunner, won a lot of bowling pin matches, and shoot every week. I have never tried to do anything that was more difficult than shooting a DA/SA pistol fast. In other words, I can shoot quite well with a DA S&W revolver, but firing the first shot DA, the rest SA is pretty much impossible to do accurately and quickly at least for me. I can only imagine how it would work in a stressful situation. I see no advantage to dA first shot. It took me a while to become accustomed to the Glock trigger pull, since I grew up on a Series 70 Colt, but have shot one really well for years. I can say I have two handguns in .45 that have never had a malfunction, HK USP and a Glock 30. I carry the Glock daily, and it functions as well as my Ed Brown built .45, and you can't get an EB Series 70 for $500. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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Jstevens I cannot disagree with your assessment of the DA/SA trigger. My Shorty Forty has the hammer drop safety and of course, the first shot is DA. In competition this would be a huge disadvantage, but for self defense, it might be a safety factor? The quote (and link) that I posted above was for H&K's LEM trigger. This is something I found out about it (by Googling): "The LEM light action system uses a two-piece hammer arrangement such that when the slide is racked or a round is chambered (by racking the slide) the lower, unseen part of the hammer is brought to full cock position and the hammer spring compressed. The hammer “spur,” or top part of the hammer, follows the slide forward and the pistol appears to be “decocked” but the pistol is still in a 90% cocked condition. When you shoot, as you pull the trigger the hammer will come back to the full cock position. As you reach the release pull weight, the trigger will release the hammer and the pistol will fire. If you hold the trigger fully to the rear as the pistol cycles the next round, you only have to let off the trigger .3 inch to reset the trigger. At that point the same amount of trigger pull weight, except for the long take up, will fire the pistol again. You will notice that after the pistol fires the hammer will be in the full cock position if you did not release the trigger, but as you release the trigger to reset the trigger, the hammer goes forward about 1/3 the way. After reset, as you pull the trigger again the hammer comes back again to full cock. If you release the trigger all the way then the hammer will go all the way forward into the “decocked” position, but remember, the hammer spring is still fully compressed and ready to fire and will do so with a light, but long pull of the trigger. The hammer spring cannot be decompressed without pulling the trigger so if you wish to do this, there had better not be a round in the chamber! The LEM also has repeat strike capability. If for some reason the pistol does not fire, and you wish to try to ignite the round again, you do not need to rack the slide to pre-load the hammer spring. You only need to pull the trigger again which will fully compress the hammer spring and release the hammer. However, starting from the fully uncompressed hammer spring condition the pull weight will be between 11 and 13 pounds, similar to the DA pull on the non LEM USP/C. After the round fires or you rack the slide (which pre-loads the hammer spring), you will again have the light LEM pull. The difference between it and the standard trigger is with a V1 standard trigger, you can start from a hammer down condition where the first shot will be DA and have a 10-11 pound pull weight as you fully cock the pistol and fire it. After firing, the hammer will stay back in the full cocked position even if you release the trigger fully and all shots after that will be in a SA mode with a trigger pull of about 4-5 pounds unless you decock. The reset on the SA trigger is roughly .254 inch but if you release the trigger all the way, you have about 1/2 inch of take up before firing the pistol at the lighter SA trigger pull weight (if you release the trigger all the way on a LEM trigger you also have the long take up before you fire the pistol again). Many do not like the transition from DA heavy first shot pull to follow up SA light trigger pull. If you release the trigger after shooting the hammer stays fully cocked and in SA mode, so if you want to decock it you use the decocker to safely drop the hammer and release tension on the hammer spring. You cannot release tension on the hammer spring with the LEM trigger without pulling the trigger, which will fire the pistol if there is a round in the chamber. There is also no manual safety on the LEM trigger but on the USP/C and HK45/C a manual safety can be retained with the LEM trigger. No safety can be added to the LEM P2K/SK firearms." Perhaps other manufacturers will introduce this kind of functionality. I DO like the multi strike capability which the LEM has, and which DA guns have. So, again, we seem to be making progress towards a "better" pistol. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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I guess I may be in the minority, but to me the Glock/XD/Sigma/you name it triggers are all really "functionally" a single action trigger. You set them really heavy in the hope that it will give you a safety margin, you give it a lot of artificial "creep" for safety margin, and then you put a "dingus" on the trigger to call it a safety, but since it has no separate action other than putting your finger on the trigger, I really don't think of it as a safety as it does not require a separate action than what you do to fire the gun. Not that that is an issue if you know what you are doing and think, but given the number of LEO AD's with them, it hardly engenders confidence as a safety. I think that the only advantage that the glock type trigger offers is that it is less likely to go off when dropped than an original 1911 because the striker is not fully loaded at rest. The competitive proof is that all of the DA/SA and DAO guns used in competition get their triggers lightened and the length of reset distance reduced if the competitor is allowed to do it. This is probably the biggest reason you don't see many HK or SIG pistols in competition- this is not reasonably do able. In effect, the 1911 style gun has the ergonomics that most people like for shooting- whether or not it as safe or perceived as as safe for actual street usage (and in my opinion, a cocked and locked 1911 is no more inherently unsafe than a "half cocked and unlocked" Glock is. Both will fire when the proper manual of arms is performed, and both will fire unexpectedly if improperly handled. The down side to a 1911 is that with the straight pull trigger it would be very difficult to get a repeat strike/double action pull that some find a positive thing. The P35 utilizes a swinging or pivoting trigger and allows a DA pull. But the P35's safety is not as large or as positive as the 1911. Similarly, with a 1911 in the absence of DA pull, there is no real point to a decocker, even if you like one, so there is none. I agree the grip safety is kind of useless nowdays, but it made pretty good sense in the days of horse cavalry. To me, this makes the P35 an option compared to the 1911, but the wide grip is not as usable by some, and the fact that the High Power is not available in a large bore option tends to make it a lesser fight stopper unless one has access to the latest high performance hollow points. | |||
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Can't disagree with anything you have said! However,in a separate thread I asked about the SIG X5-L1 which is a competition 9mm, supposedly used to win various European matches (IDPA?). In any case they claim 2" at 50 yards, excellent trigger and a 19+1 9mm capacity. I will have to check on the action. It is NOT cheap! Edited: I believe that the Sig X-5 is a SA gun. Not surprising as it is a competition gun. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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My point is that both the Mauser 98 and the 1911 are more than 100 years old and have never been so popular. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Peter, don't understand your point, unless it's just to start a conversation. I have owned several different "modern" 9's. I currently own a Springfield XDM in 9mm. Shoots great and I like to carry it. However I also own a series 80 colt in 45 ACP. I have replaced everything except the frame, barrel and slide, w/ Wilson and McCormick parts(too many to list here). I have less that $850.00 in it. She shoot's great and have never had a jam, shot several thousand rounds thru it. W/ the 45 I wouldn't have to double or triple tap a perp. Just one JHP, and down u go. To each his own, no need to dis someone because of their choice of weapons. Carry what you like and good luck. Gun control is hitting what you're shooting at! The things you see when you don't have a gun. NRA Endowment Life Member Proud father of an active duty Submariner... Go NAVY! | |||
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Ma Duce is 100 year old as well. The only improvments made to it over the last 100 years are a quick change barrel and an optics rail on top of it. Somethings just work. | |||
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Ruger is now in the 1911 business. How many different companies are now making the 1911. The 1911 is at the top of the heap even today _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I bought,and started using my first 1911 in 45 ACP when I was in the ninth grade. My first hand gun was a S&W Mod 41 in 22LR, the 1911 was the second. It was an Accurized Government Model, with Bomar adustable sights. I used it for Hardball matches, changed the spring to a lighter one for wadcutter matches. I carried it while hunting, and later I used it for IPSC. So I was "spoiled" early on. I have owned and shot many, many other pistols. However, for me the 1911, in 45ACP is my all time favorite. Some people feel more comfortable with a different pistol. They may feel safer with a non "cocked and locked" handgun, and/or they prefer one with a higher capacity. As long as a person chooses a quality pistol, that works, you should carry what you like/feel comfortable with. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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The 1911 is made by more makers than any other pistol. Ruger is now making a 1911. Sig, Taurus, S&W, Springfield, Charles Daily, Kimber Norinco, Colt,Wilson, Les Bauer, Nighhawk, etc all make 1911's. The 1911 is selling better than ever and is among the best ever made _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Magnum Research is also producing a 1911 -- seems to me that none of these manufacturers would waste their time and money if the 1911 wasn't as viable as it is.......food for thought. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Not quite. Charles Daly went out of business awhile back. Cold Zero | |||
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You forgot the 1911 made my CZ under the Dan Wesson name and the new Remington. | |||
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Are you saying that the Charles Daily name was taken off of them after Charles Daily went out of buissnes? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Are you saying when you post out of date / inaccurate information, you don't like to be corrected ? Cold Zero | |||
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