I was a law enforcement trainer for years.

I have seen because of affirmative action many people get a pass.

98 percent of the time any body could do the job.

2 percent of the time that when people get hurt or killed on both sides.

The other factors come into play,

I hate to cast stones on these 2 PO, One had 21 years experience not sure on the younger PO. Bradely is not considered a dangerous town but policing is a dangerous job and as I always said you as a PO need to be as mean/aggressive as the people you are dealing with and at that level you have a 50% chance of surviving the incident. To increase your odds you have to be an expert on tactics to increase your odds. At this point no motive has surfaced since the only live witnesses is the defendants and the officer who is in critical condition. I trust the detectives will identify the one with the the lowest involvement and cut them a deal to give up buddies. I pray that the officer will heal and be able to continue with his life.

This forum is "Concealed carry" isn't it?
I often carry a revolver because I live in Florida, wear T shirt and shorts 90% of the time, and a Taurus 38spl 5 shot is what I carry in my pocket, in a "pocket holster".
It is not my weapon of choice, which is a S&W Shield, 9mm. in a belt holster, when I am wearing a jacket or vest of some kind.
I agree with the concerns about a "house gun" and children (or adults with mental conditions). At night I will have available a Glock 9mm with light, which gets stored during the day.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
This forum is "Concealed carry" isn't it?

Personal Defence And Concealed Carry

As the forum title says concealed carry is only half of it.

Peter, have you seen the buzz around Smith's new single-action CSX? This would be my preferred alternative in a 9mm.

I post this picture only to demonstrate the advantage of being first, not that it will work every time as one young drug dealer told my partner and I, "It doesn't matter what you got if I get off First"

quote:

not that it will work every time as one young drug dealer told my partner and I, "It doesn't matter what you got if I get off First"

I had some criminal tell me about the same thing.

I told he better not miss because I won't.

He was quite after that.

Bill, I have not seen that particular one, but I will check it out. Meanwhile there is a whole raft of compact, striker fired 9mm's, including one from SCCY, the Roebuck Quad-Lock. I suspect that all suffer from a too short grip in an effort to minimize size. I would not buy one without handling it in a store. I suspect none will replace my "pocket revolver" but will check 'em out. The weight alone mitigates against a pocket carry, but it is worth some time checking.
I think the striker fired guns have an edge here. I don't want to mess with a safety. I don't want to carry cocked, which leaves a first shot DA or a striker fired weapon. 10 rounds is a definite plus, but to be useful, the gun has to be on you!
Peter

I carried a revolver early in my career and was an instructor until I retired. My preference will always run to a 1911 or commander but revolvers have their place.

For what it’s worth, on the self defense centric internet forums there are a lot of people carrying revolvers in this day and age. The small hammerless S&W are the king of pocket carry but a surprisingly large number of people carry 2 3/4” - 3” medium frame revolvers too.

One description I saw is with their round shapes and sculpted grips revolvers are more “Organic” than semiautos.

Rick, I carried the Charter Bulldog for a while, and it sure was easier to pack and conceal than my Tisas "Commander."

Bill,

The first handgun I ever owned was a 3” Bulldog! One of the many guns I should never have sold.

Sitting in a Mexican restaurant right now with my 10mm GP-100 in my waist band. Just seems appropriate.

The Bulldog is a hard act to follow. 28 ozs in a compact frame with K.O. power to write home about. Easy to carry, easy to shoot + does the trick!

My first love will always be revolvers. I have carried a J frame 38+p or 357 Magnum for several years. On occasion I still carry my 642 if in a sparsely populated area.
After the Riots and civil unrest that i've witnessed first hand I have since switched to double stack 9mm with an extra magazine. The fact that i'm carrying 23 rounds of 9mm +p vs 10 rounds of 38+p or 357 magnum is a little more comforting especially when I have my family with me.

For the past few years

On my morning 4 to 6 mile walks in the woods.

I carry my 6in. 686+ loaded with 158gr swc's with one speed loader.

I see fresh bear and wolf tracks most mornings. I have had them both as close as 10 yards.

Around the house doing chores I carry a beat up Glock 23 as I can not hurt the value any more.

When I get dressed up I carry my SR1911 in a pretty brown alligator pattern holster. Two spare mags.

My wife has had some big city medical appointments MPLS area.

It feels good to carry my 6 inch model Model 24 Glock and two spare mags there.

The smallest size gun I carry is the Model 23.

All this doesn't mean that once in awhile. I do carry something else.

I really do not feel under armed with what ever I carry.

But again I do not carry small handguns any more.

quote:

"Moreover, the revolver is now obsolete, and there is no use learning to shoot it (1919)

Not me! But Walter Winans in 1919 "The Modern Pistol and How to Shoot it"

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

quote:

"Moreover, the revolver is now obsolete, and there is no use learning to shoot it (1919)

Not me! But Walter Winans in 1919 "The Modern Pistol and How to Shoot it"

I have carried and shot the revolver and the 1911 since 1981 and the revolver side of that since early 70's. Carried both all over and in various ways. I have two go-to never go wrong with carry guns now. A Taurus 85 2" with the hammer cut off that can and does go anywhere because of size. I also qualified over our standard course 50/50 for many years with it. Out to 25 yards, I give up nothing but ammo capacity with it at speed. Cleaned a lot of plate racks with it just to drive revolver haters nuts. When I want more gun I carry a Taurus 65 357 4" in a inside the waistband Bianchi with a few speed strips in the off side pocket. Round butt modified and hides better than any 1911 made so carried and I love 1911's. When carrying a duty gun or open carry, I used the 1911 most. My son is a Glock 19 man and still likes to give me grief about my choices but I am content with them. I do admit that his G19 in an inside the Waistband holster with a spare 17 round mag is comforting. Being a lifer 1911, I have trouble shooting a Glock frame well instinctively. I shoot them high. I could adapt but why?

I learned early on to point and shoot.
That works with snubby smiths too.
All it takes is several buckets of ammo and LOTs of practice. I've always felt that if I can't get the job done with five. I sure as hell need to be somewhere else. I almost never miss the 8" plates at 35 yards with one aimed.

All my handguns are revolvers. I never learned to use a semi so I'm dangerous with one. I like the one pound loaded weight of these 642's. I've had 4, never liked them so they went down the road.

All my others are Blackhawks with 7 1/2" barrels.

Now comes the BIG question for all you Leo's with years experience.

How many of you have actually had shootouts with the bad guys? Lets hear about some of them.

An old retired sheriff from Mn showed me a batch of pellet holes where some drug dealer blasted him with bird shot. Damned lucky on the choice of shells. That shooters last trip was in a body bag.

He told me: "IF you can't do it with a .45 Colt in a Ruger Blackhawk, you need to have a rifle". After that comment I bought one and have done a lot of practice with it too.

Being old and crippled now with this shit bag on my belt line. I wear shorts and tee shirt regardless of the weather. Because the belt cause's the bags to come off at times.

I've yet to find a pair of shorts I can carry a gun in the pocket without having trouble keeping the shorts up.

Today I got a new light IWB and worn the snubby all day with it. So far I like it.

George

I liked the Walthar ppk 380 with good hollow points for an off duty gun and even when buying heroin in an undercover capacity, I also liked the Chief Special airweight with plus P plus ammo, for on duty drug cases I carried a Colt commander 45 or 38 super and my all time favorite was the FN Browning Hi Power in 9mm luger...

pistols are like shirts you need a clean one every day depending whats on the agenda! and if your a true gun nut, most cops were in my day.

Today in Idaho I carry that tiney Ruger 380, and its slightly better than a knife! and I doubt that I will ever use it except to put down a mad dog at best. I never found the ideal pistol in my years of LE..

quote:

I never found the ideal pistol in my years of LE..

A lot of truth in that.

That is why I own dozens from .22rf to 460S@W

The main advantage in a combat pistol is how many rounds it holds, its damn hard to load a revolver when your being shot at, A Browning HP with 13 rounds or better yet a Springfield SA-35 knock off that packs 17 rounds is comforting for a fairly compact pistol..Im alive today based on this fact..

I like 1911's in general and I've got Colt's and other clones, including high capacities. Also like Walther's, as they simply point nicely if a bit underpowered. But there is a place for revolvers. I really like the S&W M60 as a "light carry" for everyday use. Simple and won't malfunction. Yes, it's only five shots and reloading is an issue, but most problems can be sorted with five .357 rounds.

Police shootings vary but even by FBI statistics 3 to four shots are the average, possibly less. My experience showed one exception and at that time I carried a Colt Combat Commander with a Jframe as a backup in an ankle holster but whenever possible a long gun was in the mix especially on drug warrants which can always be extremely dangerous. That was way back then. Now, there are many criminals in possession of high capacity firearms so high capacity for LEOs in more a must or at least quick reloads. For the normal person for every day concealed carry a revolver is fine, maybe best in some circumstances, the key to survival is avoiding that encounter if possible so situational awareness is primary followed by the ability to shoot accurately and quickly if nessessary. I do not ever feel underarmed with a revolver

I recall Bill Jordan's comment in "No Second Place Winner". concerning the viability between a semi + a revolver. "Consider that we are adversaries + we go into the alley to confront each other. I have a revolver + you have a semi-auto. We both pull the trigger at the same time + we BOTH have a hang fire. Who is going to walk out of that alley?" A bit extreme of course but quite true.

Ive emptied several clips in Mexico raiding coke and Heroin plantations, never know if you hit anyone, but someone did almost every time..

I see locals now with open carry and hog legs haning in a holster, I carry a small pistol hidden on my person..My thinking is if the bad guys come in a bank or business whatever they will shoot the exposed crowd and I can slip my pistol out and shoot the sobs in the back..that will stir up the media!

It sure would, Ray + the odds are that they'd (the media) get the story all wrong. "Crazy old white man goes on shooting spree after peaceful immigrants try to make a cash withdrawal".

As far as open carry goes, it seems that a person would be giving up a certain element of surprise in defending himself against an agrees or if his firearm was easily observed. An element of surprise while defending yourself just might tip the scales of survival in your favor.

quote:

Originally posted by clayman216:
As far as open carry goes, it seems that a person would be giving up a certain element of surprise in defending himself against an agrees or if his firearm was easily observed. An element of surprise while defending yourself just might tip the scales of survival in your favor.

I'm a big fan of open carry. I think deterrence is more effective than surprise.

Mac B, I agree that it is often a deterrent to some, possibly to many. However if someone does commit to a crime or attack and sees your weapon during the attack, you are then automatically THE target where you otherwise may have a chance to outmaneuver the attacker.
Many attacks and crimes ar3 NOT preplanned or not planned well and victims tend to be people who wind up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just something to consider, I would always prefer to have them have to react to me than me to them.

Years ago an instructor I had discussed open carry which he definitely wasn’t in favor of.
His point was if a bad guy wanted to get that gun bad enough he only had to come up behind and take it by whatever means necessary. Most people don’t walk around with enough constant vigilance and skill in crowded situations to be able to retain it.

I’ve seen young guys walking around in public places carry a gun in the open and tend to agree with that instructor. If I want it bad enough I’ll get it, besides you do automatically make yourself the first target if things go bad.

True. Much as I hate to admit it there are a lot of folks out there that have no business carrying a gun.

quote:

Years ago an instructor I had discussed open carry which he definitely wasn’t in favor of

Being a instructor and knowing many instructors certified to teach CCW courses.

Many are in favor of open carry or don't care one way or the other.

So what does that mean I call your instructor and raise the ante 3.

Carry as you like.

Back to the subject I carry a revolver every day on my morning walk.

No revolvers are not done or obsolete.

They still have very real proposes in real life.

quote:

I recall Bill Jordan's comment in "No Second Place Winner". concerning the viability between a semi + a revolver. "Consider that we are adversaries + we go into the alley to confront each other. I have a revolver + you have a semi-auto. We both pull the trigger at the same time + we BOTH have a hang fire. Who is going to walk out of that alley?" A bit extreme of course but quite true.

And if Jordan's round jumps the crimp? Or a primer that backs out? Then what?

It hits the lands just after the forcing cone and now he can't open his cylinder and he's done. If the primer backs out his cylinder is again jammed. If the pistol shooter's round jumps the crimp and stops at the beginning of the lands (and if his primer backs out the gun will eject the cartridge as normal) he simply racks his gun and the faulty cartridge is ejected.

I always thought that Jordan wasn't being entirely correct. As a "Brit" you'd just about get away with it in a top break Webley or Enfield. But in a swing out cylinder gun you'd be finished.

quote:

And if Jordan's round jumps the crimp? Or a primer that backs out? Then what?

In the over hundred thousand of handgun rounds I have shot.

I have had major fails with both types.

That have put the guns out of service until I was able to access tools to put them back in service.

With good factory ammunition it is very rare with both types.

I do and have trusted both types. Having carried both when my life was on the line.

Yes, in reality, ANYTHING can happen. It reminds me of the words from Steve Goodman's song "The dying Cub fans last request.
" You know, the law of averages says, anything will happen that can,
But the last time the Cubs won the pennant, was the year we dropped the bomb on Japan."

When was the last time the 3 shots stat was updated? Been reading more about multiple armed assailants. Time for a paradigm shift?

Good question Prise. Have you considered going to "Gunsite"? They can answer a LOT of your questions + educate you along the way. Although I carry a 1911, I also keep the Hi-Power + CZ 75 close by. There is always room for good new ideas.

quote:

Originally posted by PriseDeFer:
When was the last time the 3 shots stat was updated? Been reading more about multiple armed assailants. Time for a paradigm shift?

Those numbers are numbers but what do they mean in real life.

Not much. Considering in most self defense uses the firearm is never fired.

It takes as many rounds as needed.

The better trained you are, the better shot you are, the better chance you have of ending the threat. In your Favor.

In stead of worrying about how many rounds the average is.

Worry about placing the rounds you have on target if needed.

5 hits from a 5 shot revolver is better then 15 misses from a high capacity auto.

Since this about revolvers and concealed carry, I will approach this subject somewhat differently.
Ray and I served in companion agencies, and I also carried a M-19 then M-66 S&W 4 inch revolver.
I took more guns away from aliens than shot at them. Jeff Cooper, as in 1911s, also recommended a steel J-framed 5-shot Smith loaded "close to
locking up the pistol" for informal social use.

Times have changed. Gangbanger or driveby shooters spray but seldom wait. The problem may be multiple shooters. A BUG now (backup gun ) is returning in popularity in LE circles. Wise. Either DA auto or revolver. All may malfunction
but both going south at once is like the rarity of honest elections in Chicago. You may be the target-so you choose. Practice.

In another vein are National Parks in the West. I have been in both Glacier and Yellowstone. An irritated mama grizzly is faster than a bad drug deal. Glacier NP has tour and walk NPS shuttles.
Why get into an open carry argument with Jane Fonda's daughter?
I carry a Ruger 45 Colt or the same in a New Service Colt -stuck in a carry pack. Then in a holster on the trail. Like a parachute, you will know when you need it.