The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Personal Defence And Concealed Carry Engaging the active shooterGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Engaging the active shooter | Login/Join |
| one of us |
Pick this off of opencarry.org engaging the active shooter engaging the active shooter. I got this as part of an email today from Gabe Suarez. (I am well aware of Mr. Suarez’s reputation and detractors on the internet – please focus on his message, and leave character-opinions out of any replies.) As it pertains to the tactical response of the lone armed-citizen when confronted with an active shooter, I find it hard to disagree with one word of Mr. Suarez’s post. Napoleon once said that a wise man learns from the mistakes of others. We can learn a great deal from what went wrong here can't we? Here are some points for you to consider. 1). A pistol will win against a rifle IF the pistolero kills the rifleman before the rifleman sees him. Much of this has to do with tactics, but that should be part of your skill set. 2). If the pistolero fails to drop the rifleman due to an inoperative pistol, a miss, or insufficient damage caused by too few pistol rounds, the rifleman will probably kill the pistolero. 3). The surest way to stop a man in his tracks (with some permanence) is with a shot to the head delivered at close range. Some folks dislike teaching head shots. I require them. 4). Verbalizing or challenging, as in "Halt - Drop The Gun" is not a good idea. In fact, its virtual suicide in a situation like this. You cannot yell and shoot well at the same time, and yelling may alert the bad guy to your location. There is evidence that this occurred in Tacoma. 5). You verbalize and challenge ONLY when you are not certain of what is going on and then ONLY from behind solid cover (if the adversary is armed with a rifle, few things qualify as cover). If you have enough to justify shooting, then shut your trap and work the trigger. 6). There is a great deal of discussions on Defensive Shooting. Shooting in a case of this magnitude is only defensive in concept. It is pro-active and aggressive deliberate and premeditated shooting. 7). Although I like and teach point shooting (in its context), pro-active shooting like this requires traditional marksmanship. Be deliberate! Watch your front sight and press carefully and repeatedly (with your mouth shut). 8). Train with photographic targets and do force on force training. Get used to the idea that you carry your gun to potentially shoot at a human attacker. The more you get comfortable with this the easier it will be. Tommy Lee Jones' character in the movie, The Hunted, told his students that when you can kill in your mind, the physical part is easy. He's right. 9). Consider that under some circumstances you may have to make do with a knife. I'm not saying that you will attack a rifle man with your Spyderco at 50 yards, but that in the event that he is within arm's reach (which was the case with several of the Tacoma hostages) your knife may be the only thing between you and being killed. So learn how to kill with your knife. 10). Last, consider that there may be a reason why God (or fate if you wish) put you, armed and trained, at that very spot and place in time, with the ability to save innocents. This is the life-giving sword (or gun in this context) that some ancient warriors discussed in their writings. | ||
|
| One of Us |
That's good advice. Now, remembering it when in a high pressure situation? That's the difficult thing... | |||
|
| One of Us |
"pistolero"....REALLY..??? I'm supposed to take someone SERIOUSLY who uses the term "Pistolero"..??!! | |||
|
| one of us |
Don you can do any thing you want. And what do you call some one that uses pistols. Some one armed with a pistol is a pistoleer from the American Heritage Dictionary | |||
|
| one of us |
The rule of the jungle is in a simple set of rules 1) To win you need to be as good or better than the one who you are dealing with, don't depend on luck, old Chinese saying....why does Chinese tea cups have no handles,, simple tea to hot to handle than tea to hot to drink, meaning unless you have the expertise or the upper hand it would be wise to come back another day, to put your mind and feet into concrete may cause the rest of your body to follow. NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
|
| One of Us |
i'll sum it up. if you are trying to fight fair in a gunfight,your tactics suck and you are gonna die. | |||
|
| One of Us |
P Dog: I focused on his message. It's plagiarism. I've read and heard this same stuff, written and spoken in different ways by different people a million times over the years. The points have merit, to be sure, but they are not original. 114-R10David | |||
|
| one of us |
When discussing tactics ,mental preparedness a lot of the ideas have been around for hundreds of years. Just posted it to give some one who might not of thought of these things something to think about. For people in law enforcement the milltary these things are taught and talked about a lot. For others I thought it just might help some one out. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Roger. 114-R10David | |||
|
| One of Us |
P dog shooter very well put and thank you. | |||
|
| One of Us |
P dog, Thanks, I just copied the info and emailed it to my wife and daughter. They won't care who it came from or how many times it has been around. It will be original and potentially life-saving to them. | |||
|
one of us |
I like simple, two in the chest, one in the head, then look devastated. If you are female cry, tear your blouse. Jim "Whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force." --Thomas Jefferson | |||
|
| one of us |
key words, I shot to stop not kill, some people require multiple shots or magazines to cause an attitude adjustment NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
|
One of Us |
Couple observations here -- I have fundamental reservations about a "civilian" thinking that he's "trained and equipped" to stop a lunatic with a rifle in a mall, school, theatre, public gathering. Pistol is NOT the optimal choice for engaging a rifle shooter. That this "civilian" might be effective with a knife is absurd. Law Enforcement responding to the scene will treat anyone openly displaying a firearm as a hostile threat. Evacuees at shooting sites are instructed to "keep their hands in the air, keep objects out of their hands." LEO's can't tell the "bad guy" from the armed civilian. Having a gun in hand is a good way to get shot dead. There's some speculation that the recent shooter in Clackamas Town Center Mall, (Clackamas, OR, near Portland) was shot and killed by a civilian. No confirmation on this; the police don't want to encourage "would-be heroes." Concealed carry works FIRST as a deterrent. The crazies and lunatics, felons and punks fear being shot by someone who is armed and able to defend themselves. This fear serves to deter aggression when the assailant can't be sure that the victim has no means to defense. This is why "gun free zones" are a stupid idea. This is the same rationale used in national defense. My CCW instructor first emphasized to us in class: "You are NOT an arm of law enforcement. Get that notion out of your head right now!" Last thing in the world I want to see at a lunatic assault scene is some Rambo wanna-be who thinks he's "trained and equipped" to take matters into his own hands. If you're being mugged on the street, in the parking lot -- SHOOT THE S.O.B. In the very unlikely event that you're at the scene of a mass shooting, and you're presented with a clear shot -- take it. But let's not "train and equip" like you're going to be the next hero on the 5 O'Clock News. ================================================================== A. Hamilton "The Federalist, No. 29, 'Concerning the Militia'" [I]f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist. | |||
|
| one of us |
Just do some research and find out what happened. | |||
|
| one of us |
Xero, well put (IMHO). yet many experts on this forum say they carry a gun plus 2 or 3 extra magazines! Wonder what they are equipping for? Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
|
| One of Us |
West side of Jacksonville!  When will this current nightmare end. | |||
|
| one of us |
Can't argue with that too much, except those guys do a good job of shooting among themselves!!!! Hate to say it, but as long as they keep doing that I am not too concerned, however there was tragic "drive by" not too long ago in which an innocent woman was killed. Still think that a Glock 17 with 1 mag or a Glock in 40 S&W with a 15 round clip would be 'adequate" for most situations. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
|
| One of Us |
You should go to the GlockForum.com -- I've seen them carry several mags, a back-up gun, fixed blade, shelter half, entrenching tool, porta-pottie, first aid kit, radio for calling in air-strikes and evac. etc, etc. etc. One of the Mall Ninjas on that forum was asking what people do with their gun when they're in the shower. I swear! "Should I take it in the shower? Or leave it on the counter in the bathroom?" My answer was, in effect -- "If you need a gun in the shower, you should find a new place to live." ================================================================== A. Hamilton "The Federalist, No. 29, 'Concerning the Militia'" [I]f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I have accounts on the West Side, I have a G-17 with a 15 round mag inserted and a extra one conceled. If that gets me back to my truck there are 2-33 round mags in the door pocket. When will this current nightmare end. | |||
|
| one of us |
Heck a 5 shot 38 is adequate for most situations. But I carry my Glock 23 most of the time instead of my revolvers. But I carry my revolvers a lot too. It all depends on what happens. | |||
|
| one of us |
Cannot disagree with anything recently said. My favorite carry gun, especially in the Summer is a Ruger LCR. Fits easily in my pants pocket and I hardly know it's there. As a previous poster has said: the best carry gun is the one you have with you. I find myself carrying much more often now, with that LCR! Peter Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
|
| One of Us |
So, what are you training and equipping for, if not a serious situation? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hard malfunction, reload.... Cold Zero | |||
|
| One of Us |
While it is true that a pistol is not the optimal choice to go up against a threat armed with a rifle, it is a lot better than hoping for a positive outcome. How many shoppers go to the mall with their favorite black rifle, 7 mags, hard armor over soft armor, Helmet, IFAK and gas mask because they expect to run into a threat armed with a rifle? While there are exceptions to every rule, "a" civilian is not necessarily better or wrose equipped than your avg. Police Officer, I have seen good and bad in both skill level wise. Your post wrecks of L.E. eliteism. Are you LEO, for frame of reference ? BTW, the NYPD did really well in the Times Square shootout. They shot about 11 civilians for each one bad guy that was hit. Could an avg. civilian really have done worse ? Cold Zero | |||
|
| One of Us |
Final thought, while most civilians, myself included, have no illusions to be Rambo. If the threat is between my family and the nearest exit, he is going down, if he goes muzzle up on my family, he is going down. Without any of the above in play, we leave. Cold Zero | |||
|
| One of Us |
I like I suspect most people wh have actually trained, have trained that in the event of any kind of malfunction to dump the mag, clear the action and switch to a fresh mag. And only worry about what was wrong with the first magazine when I had nothing better to do... If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
|
| one of us |
No its to clear the malfuntion the best way dumping the mag that in the gun is only one way. It might not be the best way but could be. | |||
|
| one of us |
I am somewhat dismayed that several people on this thread indicate that even tho armed, they would disengage if possible WHILE A SHOOTER WAS SLAUGHTERING INNOCENT PEOPLE. "Let the police handle it." they say. Well hell, how many are going to die while you await a police response. I'm not in any way knocking the police, but they can't be everywhere all the time, there is a response time and then their training often takes them much longer to act. I realize that each situation would have to be evaluated as it developed, but as the old saying goes, cowards die a thousand deaths, the brave only die once. I don't know what I'd do, as I said, it would depend on too many unknowable circumstances to say for sure. But if kids (or adults) were dying and I had any reasonable possibility of stopping or disrupting it, I'd hope I'd do the right thing. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
|
| One of Us |
For a Type 1 soft malfunction the magazine locked in the magwell, stays in place, for a Type 2 or Hard malfunction then the original magazine is cleared. Type 1 malfunction is faster to run thru and the additonal lost time of unnecessarily performing a Type 2 drill could cost the shooter his life. Cold Zero | |||
|
| one of us |
Now, at last we have an interesting topic. If I may paraphrase from the above. In the event of a malfunction do I: 1. Assume "soft malfunction" and perform the (faster) clear, or do I: 2. Assume "hard" malfunction and perform the (slower ie. drop the mag) clear. Either, if wrong, will get you killed! Peter Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
|
| one of us |
No you don't assume you evalute the malfunction and clear it as needed. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I teach the Type 1 / Soft Majfunction as a NON diagnostic malfunction drill. This will clear failure to seat the magazine, FTF and most FTE. The reason for teaching this as a NON diagnostic drill is that is low light you will not be able to see to evaluate which type of malfunction it is and also because the drill Tap, (roll) Rack, Ready fixes the above regardless of which type of malfuction it is. Hence the term NON disgnostic malfunction drill. The Type 1 drill will fix 85% or more of malfunctions. Cold Zero | |||
|
| one of us |
We use to teach Tap, rack, roll also as a matter of course. What we found is that for a lot of people those that don't train,shoot,use their firearms a lot. (Yea I know they should.)But most don't Is that they tend to make malfuntion worse and a lot of the time the most common failure to go bang was slide lock back because they were empty. I know that when one is well trained you know when your gun goes empty because you feel it lock back. Then one goes to a reload. I have seen many people try and tap,rack,roll a empty firearm a couple of times before the reallized it was empty. THE MATTER OF FACT IS MOST PEOPLE WHO USE FIREARMS ARE NOT THAT FAMILIAR WITH THEIR GUNS. We gun people tend to forget that a lot of people do not eat, sleep and dream guns. Thus KISS look first see what your malfuntion is clear it get back in the fight. If your one of of us gun people you will train, train and train the fastest way that works for you. For the others I find that having them look first is better and faster. | |||
|
| one of us |
I disagree. In a volatile situation when adrenaline is flowing, heart rate is up, tunnel vision is in play, breathing is shallow, AND fine motor skills are down, one does not evaluate, one practices and executes the one drill that will succeed every time. Just my 2 cents, Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
|
| one of us |
Thats fine for those who parctices. but also their is not one drill that will succeed every time. How one handles a simple stove pipe is differant then a double feed or failure to extract. Tap racking a failure to extract might clear it or might just leave you a failure to extract and a double feed on top of it. I seen way to many shooters who do not train as much as they should try and clear malfuntions by doing the wrong thing. Just following a drill by rote. In a volatile situation unless your highly trained not knowing what type of malfuntion your dealing with. I seen a whole lot people make thing worse. Taking a split second to evaluate actually works better for them. | |||
|
| new member |
Rodney King riots or when George Zimmerman is acquitted. | |||
|
| One of Us |
While I generally agree with and respect P Dog shooter, we are not in agreement on this. Repeating, looking down at your weapon and taking your eyes off the threat, while doing so to look at the cause of the malfunction, may work in day light, is not tactically sound, nor does it work in Low or No light condtions that most gunfights statistically take place during. Teaching to look down at the cause of the malfunction does not work in all conditions. The other issue is if you are dealing with shooters that do not practice, I do not agree with the reasoning that since they do not practice, that we will give them the Type 2 malfunction drill as the default standard to rely on, that takes at leaast three times as long to CORRECTLY perform and is a much more difficult and time consuming drill to perform during a gun fight, if you are dealing with shooters who do not practice. Again, you would want the more simple Type 1, not the more difficult and much more time consuming Type 2 drill that will fix almost all malfuctions, short of a case head sepaaration in the chamber (which is an ammuntion failure and not a weapong malfunction anyway). It is noted that the Type one fixes 85-90% of malfunctions and the Type 2 fixes near 100%. Cold Zero | |||
|
| one of us |
We will have to agree to disagree on this one | |||
|
| One of Us |
I am fine with that.  Cold Zero | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia