quote:

As far as 9mm vs. .45ACP is concerned, I don't think it matters very much. The .45 is a better round, but neither pistol cartridge is a fight stopper. Rifles and shotguns are fight stoppers, pistols are not.

It doesn't matter that much unless you need to use one, it has been proven through multiple wars and police shootings that the .45 is substantially better as a stopper than the 9mm. The rifles and shotguns comparison is silly unless you're going to be carrying one or the other all day. If I can't stop a life threatening situation with a .45 at close range then I suppose I'm going to die, but I've got a slightly better chance with it than with a 9mm. You're also correct that the 9mm and the .38 special are very close and I wouldn't want to use one of them either. I should have mentioned that in my first post.

I'm not going to go back and forth with you or anyone on this topic, it's your choice, your life, carry or don't carry what you want. I'll stick with something besides a 9mm myself.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

As far as 9mm vs. .45ACP is concerned, I don't think it matters very much. The .45 is a better round, but neither pistol cartridge is a fight stopper. Rifles and shotguns are fight stoppers, pistols are not.

It doesn't matter that much unless you need to use one, it has been proven through multiple wars and police shootings that the .45 is substantially better as a stopper than the 9mm. The rifles and shotguns comparison is silly unless you're going to be carrying one or the other all day. If I can't stop a life threatening situation with a .45 at close range then I suppose I'm going to die, but I've got a slightly better chance with it than with a 9mm. You're also correct that the 9mm and the .38 special are very close and I wouldn't want to use one of them either. I should have mentioned that in my first post.

I'm not going to go back and forth with you or anyone on this topic, it's your choice, your life, carry or don't carry what you want. I'll stick with something besides a 9mm myself.

+1 What Charlie said.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Matherne:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

As far as 9mm vs. .45ACP is concerned, I don't think it matters very much. The .45 is a better round, but neither pistol cartridge is a fight stopper. Rifles and shotguns are fight stoppers, pistols are not.

It doesn't matter that much unless you need to use one, it has been proven through multiple wars and police shootings that the .45 is substantially better as a stopper than the 9mm. The rifles and shotguns comparison is silly unless you're going to be carrying one or the other all day. If I can't stop a life threatening situation with a .45 at close range then I suppose I'm going to die, but I've got a slightly better chance with it than with a 9mm. You're also correct that the 9mm and the .38 special are very close and I wouldn't want to use one of them either. I should have mentioned that in my first post.

I'm not going to go back and forth with you or anyone on this topic, it's your choice, your life, carry or don't carry what you want. I'll stick with something besides a 9mm myself.

+1 What Charlie said.

Another great post, Gato. The .45 is substantially better than the 9mm. Rifles aren't necessarily fight stoppers.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Matherne:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

As far as 9mm vs. .45ACP is concerned, I don't think it matters very much. The .45 is a better round, but neither pistol cartridge is a fight stopper. Rifles and shotguns are fight stoppers, pistols are not.

It doesn't matter that much unless you need to use one, it has been proven through multiple wars and police shootings that the .45 is substantially better as a stopper than the 9mm. The rifles and shotguns comparison is silly unless you're going to be carrying one or the other all day. If I can't stop a life threatening situation with a .45 at close range then I suppose I'm going to die, but I've got a slightly better chance with it than with a 9mm. You're also correct that the 9mm and the .38 special are very close and I wouldn't want to use one of them either. I should have mentioned that in my first post.

I'm not going to go back and forth with you or anyone on this topic, it's your choice, your life, carry or don't carry what you want. I'll stick with something besides a 9mm myself.

+1 What Charlie said.

Another great post, Gato. The .45 is substantially better than the 9mm. Rifles aren't necessarily fight stoppers.

And large caliber handguns have stopped many fights, so have medium calibers, but the big guys are just a bit better. Besides if you're gonna carry a Sig. 220 or something else as large, might as well be a .45.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Matherne:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Matherne:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

As far as 9mm vs. .45ACP is concerned, I don't think it matters very much. The .45 is a better round, but neither pistol cartridge is a fight stopper. Rifles and shotguns are fight stoppers, pistols are not.

It doesn't matter that much unless you need to use one, it has been proven through multiple wars and police shootings that the .45 is substantially better as a stopper than the 9mm. The rifles and shotguns comparison is silly unless you're going to be carrying one or the other all day. If I can't stop a life threatening situation with a .45 at close range then I suppose I'm going to die, but I've got a slightly better chance with it than with a 9mm. You're also correct that the 9mm and the .38 special are very close and I wouldn't want to use one of them either. I should have mentioned that in my first post.

I'm not going to go back and forth with you or anyone on this topic, it's your choice, your life, carry or don't carry what you want. I'll stick with something besides a 9mm myself.

+1 What Charlie said.

Another great post, Gato. The .45 is substantially better than the 9mm. Rifles aren't necessarily fight stoppers.

And large caliber handguns have stopped many fights, so have medium calibers, but the big guys are just a bit better. Besides if you're gonna carry a Sig. 220 or something else as large, might as well be a .45.

And the large caliber handguns are considerably better on game than are smaller calibers. Now, before you cry foul, and point out that man is not "game," consider the fact that man is a heck-of-a-lot thinner skinned than most game animals (at least the ones that I hunt). As a handgun hunter, I don't feel in least bit undergunned with my revolvers.

Ahhhhhhhhhh Jeez.

9mm runs about 115 gr. 38 Spl. runs 158 gr. That's a lot of weight difference. Both run about the same velocity in modern loads. But if you're going to go for a wheelie . . . may as well be a .357 Mag. 158 gr. JHP in .357 is potent. Beats the 38 Spl. all to pieces.

But the 9mm semi auto has specific advantages:

Nobody much in any of these discussions takes into consideration that a 9mm gun is capable of semi-auto fire in the realm of a dozen rounds for starters. That's TWICE what you get from a "six shooter."

The strategy with a 9mm semi-auto is: Bam, bam, bam . . . bam . . . bam . . . check for effect.

I got an Uzi Mod. 45 9mm micro machine pistol. (Semi auto) 25 rd mags . . . I have eight of them. Caliber is NOT an issue. Quantity trumps caliber.

I expect I'm going to fire three times for starters with a 9mm -- and have a half dozen rounds to go before a mag swap -- for starters w/ most 9mm guns.

I'll carry a 9mm. I won't carry a 45 ACP.

William, obviously there is a great advantage to capacity. But, for many people it becomes a bit of a crutch and encourages a "spray and pray" mentality. You can see evidence of this at any range.

The .38 special, like the 9mm, if loaded correctly can work well. But the .40 Smith loaded correctly works better, etc.

The .45 is in a different realm with regards to effectiveness -- again, loaded correctly to take advantage of its obvious attributes.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
Don't underestimate the stopping power of a 9mm. I like 45 ACP, 44 mag., for sure 12 gauge, 7.62 X 39mm, and "rifles" for defense.

But I have a Kahr MK9, and it gets carried, because it's small enough. Same, same for the Smith Mod. 60 in .357 mag, and even the NAA Guardian in 32 ACP.

The hand cannon won't do you any good if it's so big you won't pack it around.

And on that note, I'm a fan of having the "big gun" as backup in the vehicle.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Handgun stopping power is a myth. Suggest you click the link and read the FBI's report.

Thanks for the link. It was a very interesting read, the conclusions are well reasoned, and believable.

That said, the article would point to the superiority of the .45 ACP to any other cartridge for personal defense.

I use a .40 S&W, and prefer the 40 due to its size and managebility when firing. I would prefer to put 3 or more shots into my target, than settling for 2 shots on target per magazine. The 40 more often has a larger capacity than a 45.

Does this mean I don't like the 45, or think the 45 is not adequate for personal defense? NO!!

The 45 has proven itself for more than 100 years. It's a great cartridge. It works.

But, no gun works if you cannot hit what your shooting at, no matter what size the bullet is.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
William, obviously there is a great advantage to capacity. But, for many people it becomes a bit of a crutch and encourages a "spray and pray" mentality. You can see evidence of this at any range.

The .38 special, like the 9mm, if loaded correctly can work well. But the .40 Smith loaded correctly works better, etc.

The .45 is in a different realm with regards to effectiveness -- again, loaded correctly to take advantage of its obvious attributes.

Just a thought, wasn't it the .45 chambered in a Thompson that made "pray and spray" a reality?

Probably!

Many people see 16 rounds of capacity as license to keep squeezing whether they are on target or not!

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
Ahhhhhhhhhh Jeez.

9mm runs about 115 gr. 38 Spl. runs 158 gr. That's a lot of weight difference. Both run about the same velocity in modern loads. But if you're going to go for a wheelie . . . may as well be a .357 Mag. 158 gr. JHP in .357 is potent. Beats the 38 Spl. all to pieces.

But the 9mm semi auto has specific advantages:

Nobody much in any of these discussions takes into consideration that a 9mm gun is capable of semi-auto fire in the realm of a dozen rounds for starters. That's TWICE what you get from a "six shooter."

The strategy with a 9mm semi-auto is: Bam, bam, bam . . . bam . . . bam . . . check for effect.

I got an Uzi Mod. 45 9mm micro machine pistol. (Semi auto) 25 rd mags . . . I have eight of them. Caliber is NOT an issue. Quantity trumps caliber.

I expect I'm going to fire three times for starters with a 9mm -- and have a half dozen rounds to go before a mag swap -- for starters w/ most 9mm guns.

I'll carry a 9mm. I won't carry a 45 ACP.

Where to start:
My current 9mm offerings are both 147 grain, and, about 900-1000 fps. The HST goes around 978 out of a G19.

http://federalhst.com/

Yes, you can also get nearly .357 velocity out of a 9mm, provided the .357 has a 2.5" barrel or shorter. Corbon 125 grain HPS chronographed 1204 fps out of my 360 PD, 1 7/8" barrel.

If a .357 doesn't have a 3" barrel or longer, it's really a .38 Special Plus P +, or ++. Yes, it's better then the .38 Special, but, it REALLY needs that extra couple inches, 3 or 4" barrel, to make the .357 .357.

Double Taps ammo looks like this:

"All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.(

DoubleTap 9mm+P
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"


DoubleTap .357 Sig
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 12.25" / .71"
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1250fps - 14.75" / .73"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"
"

Take your pick...

I like those 230 grain Gold Dots at 1100 fps, 45 Super velocity, though I wouldn't feel under gunned with 200 grain Gold Dots at 1200 fps, either.

My view is simple: the wheelguns are FAR more versatile, and, can go places you can't think about with the standard semi-auto cartridges.

When you start shrinking the guns for carry, the difference becomes even more exacerbated.

Carrying a mini-submachine gun is not an option for 99% of us, so, enjoy your Uzis. Using the performance of a 9mm round, out of a submachine gun, is NOT applicable to the thread, nor is carrying a submachine gun, unless you are a Euro police officer.

Of course the same argument could be made about carrying any of the big wheel gun calibers.

9mm in Fed. HydraShok -- however it's spelled.

.357 mag. in 158 gr.

44 magnum.

45 ACP.

Pays to have options -- and I do.

Hard to beat the AK in the truck as backup.

Perhaps the most important factor is which is the most inherently accurate?
Then, follow that with which comes in a platform that you can carry, shoot a lot, and shoot accurately?

Finally, what is adequate to increase the size of the target area? One of our local firearms instructors has a target with a 'head' that is only the size of the eye sockets. His thinking is head shots are pretty much out, for calibers less then .41 magnum. He thinks the skull will be able to deflect a variety of small calibers, unless they hit at a perfect angle to penetrate. Other calibers that might penetrate are difficult to be accurate enough with, depending on the size, or firearm it's fired from. Not to mention a head is a hard target to acquire, and shoot, when moving.

Open carry it's a 44 mag.

quote:

Originally posted by mike_elmer:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
William, obviously there is a great advantage to capacity. But, for many people it becomes a bit of a crutch and encourages a "spray and pray" mentality. You can see evidence of this at any range.

The .38 special, like the 9mm, if loaded correctly can work well. But the .40 Smith loaded correctly works better, etc.

The .45 is in a different realm with regards to effectiveness -- again, loaded correctly to take advantage of its obvious attributes.

Just a thought, wasn't it the .45 chambered in a Thompson that made "pray and spray" a reality?

Know anyone that carries a Thompson concealed? Handguns are weapons of oppertunity and are much more likely to be with one when neede than a Thompson or any other long gun.

I have taken enough game with handguns to be perfectly confident in there ability to get the job done

.45 ACP

Because when I learned to shoot handguns, it was with a 1911. Now I am ruined for everything else.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by mike_elmer:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
William, obviously there is a great advantage to capacity. But, for many people it becomes a bit of a crutch and encourages a "spray and pray" mentality. You can see evidence of this at any range.

The .38 special, like the 9mm, if loaded correctly can work well. But the .40 Smith loaded correctly works better, etc.

The .45 is in a different realm with regards to effectiveness -- again, loaded correctly to take advantage of its obvious attributes.

Just a thought, wasn't it the .45 chambered in a Thompson that made "pray and spray" a reality?

Know anyone that carries a Thompson concealed? Handguns are weapons of oppertunity and are much more likely to be with one when neede than a Thompson or any other long gun.

I have taken enough game with handguns to be perfectly confident in there ability to get the job done

Do you have a violin case?

OK, I will say this again...

Of the shootings I am personally aware of, I cannot recall even one person going down with a single 9mm hit to the chest... Many times even multiple 9mm hits were lacking.

I cannot recall a single time where a single hit to the chest with a 44 Mag or a 45, ACP or "Long Colt" did not take a man down.

Also chest hits with Soft Point 223, and 308 always put them down.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
OK, I will say this again...

Of the shootings I am personally aware of, I cannot recall even one person going down with a single 9mm hit to the chest... Many times even multiple 9mm hits were lacking.

I cannot recall a single time where a single hit to the chest with a 44 Mag or a 45, ACP or "Long Colt" did not take a man down.

Also chest hits with Soft Point 223, and 308 always put them down.

How many people have you shot or your friends have shot?

Because based on my experience and pretty much anyone with a clue no matter what gun is used, there is no certainty of dropping someone with one shot....unless you have a CNS shot.

There is a cop over on Glocktalk who was shot several times with 45ACP and he still was able to kill the bad guy before passing out.

Mas Adobe (sp?) recounts several people in his books that were shot and didn't go down.

quote:

Originally posted by ddunn:

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
OK, I will say this again...

Of the shootings I am personally aware of, I cannot recall even one person going down with a single 9mm hit to the chest... Many times even multiple 9mm hits were lacking.

I cannot recall a single time where a single hit to the chest with a 44 Mag or a 45, ACP or "Long Colt" did not take a man down.

Also chest hits with Soft Point 223, and 308 always put them down.

How many people have you shot or your friends have shot?

Because based on my experience and pretty much anyone with a clue no matter what gun is used, there is no certainty of dropping someone with one shot....unless you have a CNS shot.

There is a cop over on Glocktalk who was shot several times with 45ACP and he still was able to kill the bad guy before passing out.

Mas Adobe (sp?) recounts several people in his books that were shot and didn't go down.

N E 450 No2, has the experience. Of course you didn't mention shot location or the type of bullets used all of which make a big difference. Ball ammo in the least effective in any caliber

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
Ahhhhhhhhhh Jeez.

9mm runs about 115 gr. 38 Spl. runs 158 gr. That's a lot of weight difference. Both run about the same velocity in modern loads. But if you're going to go for a wheelie . . . may as well be a .357 Mag. 158 gr. JHP in .357 is potent. Beats the 38 Spl. all to pieces.

But the 9mm semi auto has specific advantages:

Nobody much in any of these discussions takes into consideration that a 9mm gun is capable of semi-auto fire in the realm of a dozen rounds for starters. That's TWICE what you get from a "six shooter."

The strategy with a 9mm semi-auto is: Bam, bam, bam . . . bam . . . bam . . . check for effect.

I got an Uzi Mod. 45 9mm micro machine pistol. (Semi auto) 25 rd mags . . . I have eight of them. Caliber is NOT an issue. Quantity trumps caliber.

I expect I'm going to fire three times for starters with a 9mm -- and have a half dozen rounds to go before a mag swap -- for starters w/ most 9mm guns.

I'll carry a 9mm. I won't carry a 45 ACP.

There are high capacity 45's available that hold 14 rounds in the magazine

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
As much as I love the .45 ACP, someone ought to design a .50 ACP on a 1911 action.

quote:

Originally posted by jpj3:
Lavaca,
Guncrafter Industries makes a 1911 in .50 GI with a 300 grain bullet @ 860 fps.

There is a conversion for Glock to the 50acp as well.

ddunn

Several dozen. I was on the job for over 30 years. Nothing is perfect, nothing is 100%.

But I can say, with similar hits, the 45 ACP, & 44 Mag was near 100%. The 9mm was dismal, we used the 147gr HP, the 115 +P and +P+ does have a better record.

The 125 357 Mag worked good, and strangely enough the 158 Winchester Lead +P HP from 4" barrels worked good as well.

And again any center chest hit with a SP ,or HP from a 223... It was Game Over...
Same for 308 of course...

For what its worth, baised on all my personal experience, if you had 50 Million dollars to spend...

If you are truely concerned about your safety, and the safety of your loved ones...

The BEST Carry gun you can have is a 1911, in 45 ACP, a Light Weight Commander, carried in an IWB holster like a Milt Sparks, with at least 2 extra magazines of course...

WITH a S&W 38 Special Bodyguard or Centennial, on your off hand front pocket...

Combine the above with Professional Training, in Conflict Avoidnance, and Conflict Resolution...

ANYTHING LESS, and you are just "playing at protection"...

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I have Hot Rodded the 45 ACP a fair amount [before I know better] and could not get it near the 44 Mag.

.460 rowland. is a 45 acp case that is just a little longer (so it cant be chambered in an un modified 45 acp) the 460 will give you 44 mag power in a semi auto.

Standard pressure 45 ACP in 185, 200 and 230gr HP has worked well.

When it was approved to carry reloads 185gr HP bullets at well over 1100fps were used by a few of us.

They are hard on your gun. Can't really prove they were more effective than the standard stuff.

The Speer 200gr 44 Mag load worked very good.