.45 Auto for me!

I personally carry a 40 SW (Glock 27, with 11 round mags).

Why? Well, even though I love my Commander in 45 ACP, I choose the G27 and 40SW for what I consider the better parts of both sides of the age old conflict of capacity versus diameter (your opinion may vary).

The 11 shot + one 40 totes 50% more ammo of only slightly less diameter than the 45, while equalling or bettering the energy level of the 45 (recall, apples and apples-short barrelled guns).

The 40 is equally larger than the 9mm family, and generates more ft/lbs and Lbs/ft than the 9mm or 38 (and almost the same as a snub 357 with mid wieght bullets, and loses only one or 2 rounds to the 9mm equivalent sub compact auto, twice as much than the 5 or 6 shot wheeler...

The 357 Sig is interesting, but since it is a 38/9mm, I'll stick with the 40...

My back-up is a spare G27....

My "properly clothed" carry gun is a G27....

My open country carry gun is a G27 (kidding-it is a S&W 4inch M29, backed up with a G27...)

Molon Labe

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
Handgun stopping power is a myth. Suggest you click the link and read the FBI's report.

So, jetdriver, you think the 1989 FBI report is accurate and on target, eh?!!

I wonder what caliber pistols the premier law enforcement agency currently uses?

Give up?!!!!

Hint: It's the cartridge that the FBI requested Smith & Wesson design for them after they found out the 10mm wasn't the best cartridge for their needs.

So jetdriver, if you find the FBI's findings on stopping power to be correct, wouldn't it be prudent to find out what cartridge they adopted for their service pistols...BASED ON THOSE FINDINGS?

Most carried:

1.) true pocket gun--32 KelTec ,tiny ,minimal pocket-outline (my "unarmed" gun, , shorts, tee shirt .etc)

2.) revolver-.44 Bulldog -shortened spur (my handloads, )
(until S&W or someone else produces a Scandium or other light/strong-metal gun)

" My non-issue" gun -99.999999% it goes off when asked , no safety, no mag release, mag spring, battery lock-up,etc, etc to be concerned with.
Carried wheel guns when 1st badged (haven't in a while) then semis.

3.) My "if I practiced every week like I used to I would probably carry it more gun"--
Semi- .45 USP compact, 1st series have owned since they came out. ACCURATE,reliable

Have had and sold, Seecamp, Asp, Kahr, Detonics, other 1911's, CZ, NAA and a few others for various reasons.

Most surprising inexpensive semi- : KelTec P-11 9mm, few $$, accurate (after trigger acclimation) seems to function flawlessly, though I've put only 500 or so rounds through it.

Most surprising penetration: TT-33 Tokarev 7.62 X 25, simply amazing at going through objects ( even lexan teller windows included--yes it was an experiment not a heist)
Cheap ammo, solid gun , lots of fun lately.

I have carried concealed a .45 Glock Model 30 since MO. allowed CCW. Well maybe a little bit before that. As a matter of fact I was arrested and charged with carrying concealed in 1985.

quote:

TT-33 Tokarev 7.62 X 25, simply amazing at going through objects

That caliber plays hell with body armor, too.

I had to watch this thread percolate for a while. I had a State Medical Examiner tell me it was difficult to tell the difference between wounds made by different handgun calibers and from watching a few autopsies I'd agree.

The State Police switched to .45acp from the .40S&W due to concerns about the bullets not expanding in multiple shootings. They didn't lose any of those exchanges, they just weren't totally happy with the results.

Personally, I carry a .45acp off duty but I'm comfortable with any gun that I feel confident of making good shots with.

The only gun I wouldnt buy with the intention of personal defense would be the 9mm. Not saying it wouldnt work, I just like the others better. My next one is going to be a springfield GI 45 in stainless.

I didn't take the time to read the foregoing two pages so perhaps this has been discussed. If so, forgive me.

The question is moot until one decides the platorm. You need a gun? Okay, what for, and under what circumstances? Work from there. This conversation will serve to do nothing but piss guys off. Handguns, personal defense, pistol craft and caliber(s) do not create a perfect science. There are necessary compromises which must be made along the way.
It's not the chicken or the egg, it's the gun, then the caliber.

Consider this. You need to drill a hole. First, you get your drill motor. Then---you figure out which drill will work best to drill the precise hole you need.

Forgot to add input regarding the 40cal. It's efficient and effective as a mid-level handgun caliber. It works. And its now available in a variety of sweet little guns suitable for all occasions. But let's be clear on this. All that has been written about it over the last 15/20 years is a rewrite of the truth.

There was no real need to create such a caliber. The 40 cal is a child born of a need of "small stature" law enforcement officers entering the work force who required an efficient cartridge in a gun they could control. The 38 was perfect for these new officers, but we knew it was terribly insufficient ballistically. The 357, along with the 41 and the 44, over penitrated and created too much recoil, and generally came in big honkin revolvers. The 9mm was the answer! Until it began to fail in the field. Bad guys hit with the 9mm tended to shoot back more often that not. The 45acp, arguably the best, had too much recoil. The 1911 was too big and "unsafe" and the various revolvers in 45acp were equally unsuitable.

So......what to do?

The result was the 40cal. And it works. It's not for me, but it works. And smaller officers and agents can use it well. It works.

But don't let any of the other garbage written about the develoment of the 40 fool you. When the FBI says it worked up the 40cal because of a percieved need, what they are not saying is that "need" was to accommodate a changing work force. Today's history reflects a politically correct answer to a very practical problem---women in law enforcement.

We are blessed with the 40cal. It works. Its saved lives and will have its rightful place in the history of law enforcement weaponology. But honest history will show that it is the only cartridge created to fill a need at the back end of the gun, rather than the front end.

Don't let the uninformed fool you on this one.

The .45 ACP doesn't have "too much recoil".

It's just an unnecessarily large/fat low-pressure cartridge that reduces mag capacity.

AKA..... A DINOSAUR!

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
TT-33 Tokarev 7.62 X 25, simply amazing at going through objects

Oh? Why is that?!!!

A LOT of what TWL stated in his previous post is correct.

The 9mm was not,does not cut it.

The 40 cal does provide a step up in "power" in a 9mm sized package.

It was designed for the modern people in law enforcement, most of who have never fired a handgun prior to their Academy entrance.


Still for the higher trained persons, the 1911 in 45 ACP is superior.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Still for the higher trained persons, the 1911 in 45 ACP is superior.

Say three "Hail John Brownings" and walk safely through the Valley of Death.

The 1911 is such a nice platform to launch dinosaur sized bullets from.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick R:


Say three "Hail John Brownings" and walk safely through the Valley of Death.

Hilarious!

quote:

Originally posted by Colonel_Klink:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick R:


Say three "Hail John Brownings" and walk safely through the Valley of Death.

Hilarious!

And true...

IIRC, the Feebies wanted the 10mm, after extensive handgun caliber effectiveness testing following the Miami shootout, where the 9mm and .38 didn't do the job initially. The fight was finished with a .38, but at point blank range against a severely wounded opponent. The women and limp wristed CPA's couldn't shoot the ten, so they chopped the case and created the .40. I'd rather have a .40 than a rock, but I carry a Colt .45. What was good enough for Jeff Cooper is good enough for me.

Rick is a fine fella who has quite a way with words. I really enjoy being around him as a result. (We're headed to RSA for the second time at the end of the month.)

What you may not know is that he (or has been) is the training officer for the local Sheriff's department. Worth listening to.

I do have and carry a 9mm when the weather makes something large hard to conceal. Otherwise I'll go with a .45 ACP.

That being said, the .40 S&W can be a very effective beast if used properly. Same applies to the .357 Mag or the .45 Auto.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
I carry a Colt .45.

You carry a Colt .45, eh? Bisley or SAA?!!!!!

Sorry..... I couldn't resist!

The choices were 9mm or .357. I clicked 357 because my Glock 33 in 357SIG, shooting 125gr HP's is supposed to duplicate the 357 mag wheelgun, even though the bullet size is .355" same as the 9mm Parabellum. So confusing.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
The choices were 9mm or .357. I clicked 357 because my Glock 33 in 357SIG, shooting 125gr HP's is supposed to duplicate the 357 mag wheelgun, even though the bullet size is .355" same as the 9mm Parabellum. So confusing.

Even MORE confusing to me are the guys who think that a .45ACP is a more effective cartridge than the .357 Mag or .357 SIG!

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
TT-33 Tokarev 7.62 X 25, simply amazing at going through objects

Oh? Why is that?!!!

Eastern European police have a specialized Kevlar vest they refer to as the "Tokarev" -- because the 7.62 X 25mm will penetrate the standard Kevlar body armor.

It's a velocity issue. Tokarev gets about 2,100 fps on a 30 cal. bullet. It tends to drill holes.

You can say "small stature" -- but the 40 S & W was developed by the FBI for WOMEN, so they could get their hands around a double stack mag in a caliber that would stop the perp.

What they came up with is near 45 ACP ballistics in a gun that works on a 9mm frame. Because the 9mm wasn't working, 38 Spl. revolvers were becoming obsolete, .357 mag is still only 6 shots, and many female officers simply cannot manage a .357 mag.

45 ACP -- big, heavy, slow bullet. Loopy trajectory, and takes some training to shoot effectively. But it's hard to argue with BIG.

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:
Even MORE confusing to me are the guys who think that a .45ACP is a more effective cartridge than the .357 Mag or .357 SIG!

I KNOW it is and cartridge confidence is a great thing. (even if it may be a delusion)

Earlier the FBI handgun round tests were mentioned and if memory serves, one of the little aspects of that testing that gets missed was that handgun rounds only destroy an average of one pound of flesh. Visualize a pound of burger shaped like a tear drop and put that in a human torso.

Now move that from the ideal position you put it in and make it a near miss. The .357, 9mm+P+, .44, .45, and 10mm/.40 all do an adequate job but not much more.

Our county has three interstate highways, numerous state and county roads, it's quite rural in places and people hit a LOT of deer.
All the agencies in our county get called to destroy road damaged deer. 200 pound average animal with adrenalin going full tilt, sound like a realistic (if somewhat gruesome) test media?

.357 magnums worked fine, .38 Spl was lacking, I'd assume that the .357 SIG would be effective as it doesn't matter how 125gr of lead gets up to Magnum speed, just that it gets there. Agencys that issued 9mm had disgruntled officers complaining about having to use 8 or 9 rounds to send Bambi to the pasture in the sky. For a while I carried a 9mm backup pistol loaded with Winchester's +P+ load and bang flopped several deer with it. You couldn't tell that they weren't hit with a .357.
We issued the 10mm in it's full 180gr at 1,200fps glory load and it hammered deer as does a good .45acp hollow point but it's in a bigger gun that some people have problems shooting.
The .40 S&W works about like the .357/9mm+P loads. The deer go down to good hits, but there isn't that visible impact energy.

My suggestion is to pick a decent caliber in a handgun YOU shoot well and hope if you're in a shooting there's a good rifle nearby.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

It's a velocity issue. Tokarev gets about 2,100 fps on a 30 cal. bullet. It tends to drill holes.

Yup! It's a velocity issue...... but NOT 2,100 fps type velocity!

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

It's a velocity issue. Tokarev gets about 2,100 fps on a 30 cal. bullet. It tends to drill holes.

Yup! It's a velocity issue...... but NOT 2,100 fps type velocity!

About 1400 from the pistol higher in the sub-guns and carbines

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
The choices were 9mm or .357. I clicked 357 because my Glock 33 in 357SIG, shooting 125gr HP's is supposed to duplicate the 357 mag wheelgun, even though the bullet size is .355" same as the 9mm Parabellum. So confusing.

Actually, the 357 Sig diameter is .3555, but try to find some in bulk. Everybody sells .355 to reloaders.

I have a Sig 2340 in 357 Sig, and I really like it. With over five thousand rounds fired and not a single malfunction, it's a real keeper. Did a spring change, but I carried it a while back when both my Commanders were in the shop. It is very, very accurate.

Is .45 probably the best choice? Yes. Is it always the right caliber? No. I am an admitted Glock person. I have owned USP's, Sigs, XDs, 1911s and Smiths. I have owned the above in 9mm, 40, 10mm and 45 ACP. It boiled down to this, I shot best with a Glock. The Glock 21 is too bulky for my hand. The 9mm is a little anemic. Therefore, the Glock 22 came out the winner. It will get the job done in a pistol I am comfortable with. Besides, I am only going to use it to fight to my M1A.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
The bigger hole you blow in the target, the better chance you have of slowing him down. I call your attention to this FBI report on handgun wounding effectiveness...

That is NOT what it says. It expressly deals with bullets that blow big holes shallowly. The article says that without penetration of at least 12" you are not properly armed. The author prefers penetration in the order of 18". The body of the article says you must get effective penetration, and the conclusion says use big bullets so that once you have penetration the holes are larger.

I have decided many years ago haveing carried everything from 22lf mouse guns to full house 44mags. that the best caliber to have is the one you have on you at the time you need it.

My normal about every where I go right now is a glock 23 with 165 gr golden sabers. My normal going to spend time in woods gun is my Ti 41 mag with 210 gr hard cast.

But then A lot of time just carrying my 22 buckmark I really don't feel unarmed with it. and it makes shooting things for the table easier.

When I go to Canada on willderness fishing trips I would be over joyed to beable to carry single shot 22 short instead of the NOTHING I have to do now.

Any gun that is half way accurate and goes bang when you pull the trigger is better then no gun at all.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
When I go to Canada on willderness fishing trips I would be over joyed to beable to carry single shot 22 short instead of the NOTHING I have to do now.

Tsk tsk.

I think it was Jeff Cooper that said something about using a pistol to fight your way to a rifle. That's my philosophy, anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
I think it was Jeff Cooper that said something about using a pistol to fight your way to a rifle. That's my philosophy, anyway.

It is a good one. I live buy it.

I have survived buy it.

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:
The .40 S&W is the way to go!

The .45 ACP is a dinosaur!

And that dinosaur can handily step on the little .40.

Whatever:
Heres the short version:
Know your situation, know your gun, and shoot it well. Also, know your ammunition.

I am a fan of the .41 mag. mine is a S&W Mountain Gun which I find is fairly managable sizewize. I use a 215 gr semi-wadcutter bullet for hunting, and the same amount of Win. 296 in front of a 170 gr hollow point for defensive purposes. The defense load is a very managable load and quick follow-up shots easily done.

A good comfortable holster is a must for a revolver of this size, but I'm not so worried about concealment these days, as it is not the end of the world if the weapon is spoted.

I'm also a big fan of the Sig 220 in .45 acp. It is easily concealed if you wear the right clothing and for defensive purposes, nothing beats the .45 acp.

I have some 40s, a 357 Sig and 38s but generally leave them to the wife.

Yeah, I knew it . . . Sooner or later the posts would turn into a photo swap and braggin' thread.

Permits in two states -- because I'm on the border and they're not reciprocal -- I can't remember the last time I carried CCW.

Not necessary, and a huge bother.

quote:

Originally posted by daniel77:
Just wondering the most popular choice.

To answer your question:
of the ones on your list:
9mm, .357 magnum, 45 acp/though primarily 45 Super.

I've got them all, I voted for the .45 but have no problems with any of the others except the 9mm. While I'm certain that under good conditions and probably pretty bad conditions (low light, moving target, drugged up) that I could stop an assailant using a 9, that word "probably" is why I prefer not to carry or use one for self defense. Anything that increases the odds in your favor is a good thing IMO. The difference between a good stopping shot and one that may allow the assailant to get off a shot, aimed or otherwise, or allow him to close with a knife is sometimes very small. I'm a gambler and I like gambling with the odds in my favor. Friends don't let Friends use 9mms for self defense.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I've got them all, I voted for the .45 but have no problems with any of the others except the 9mm. While I'm certain that under good conditions and probably pretty bad conditions (low light, moving target, drugged up) that I could stop an assailant using a 9, that word "probably" is why I prefer not to carry or use one for self defense. Anything that increases the odds in your favor is a good thing IMO. The difference between a good stopping shot and one that may allow the assailant to get off a shot, aimed or otherwise, or allow him to close with a knife is sometimes very small. I'm a gambler and I like gambling with the odds in my favor. Friends don't let Friends use 9mms for self defense.

Good post, Gato! I agree completely.

I've been carrying concealed for a few years. I started out with a full sized 1911, but it's too heavy for me to carry comfortably. (Yes I use a good belt and holster.) Right now I carry either a S&W 1911SC (like a lightweight commander), or a Glock 19. Lately the Glock has been getting the nod. It's a soulless little piece of plastic, but it's reliable and easy to hit with.

As far as 9mm vs. .45ACP is concerned, I don't think it matters very much. The .45 is a better round, but neither pistol cartridge is a fight stopper. Rifles and shotguns are fight stoppers, pistols are not.

Look at the odds. As an average citizen, you probably aren't going to be attacked. You're even less likely to be attacked if you are alert and take precautions. If you are attacked, the mere act of drawing a gun will cause most attackers to cease. If they do not, shooting them a couple of times in the chest is a pretty good deterrent. If that doesn't work, then the fun starts, and you need to make a CNS hit to stop the fight. So for me, the 9MM vs. .45 debate boils down to the extremely unlikely scenario of someone who is so determined to attack you that he/she will press the attack even after being shot multiple times, then the .45 has a slight advantage.

As far as a .38 special being good, while a 9mm is horrible....you've been brainwashed by the anti-9mm people. Ballistically, they aren't that different. I'll take an auto with 15 rounds, plus 2 spare mags (a total of 45 rounds) vs. a .38 snubbie with as much extra ammo as you care to pack.