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http://www.thetruthaboutguns.c...m-wins-caliber-wars/ On July 25, 2014, the Federal Bureau of Investigation released a pre-solicitation notice for a family of pistols chambered in 9mm — and in so doing, fanned the embers of ‘the great debate’ over pistol calibers,” Mike Wood reports at policeone.com. Hey! Why didn’t anyone tell me about this? Of course, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion anyway. The .40 caliber round adopted by the FBI and thousands of police departments after the infamous FBI Miami shootout (a cluster-you-know-what of epic proportions) was a panic-induced compromise that didn’t provide 9mm capacity or controllability, or .45 caliber controllability and terminal performance. But don’t take my word for it. Wood rings the death knell for .40 . . . The FBI is not alone in this respect. Executives at all the major ammunition companies have confirmed that law enforcement orders for 9mm ammunition have spiked in recent years, and the cartridge is making a serious comeback. Many agencies throughout the United States have recently adopted — or readopted — 9mm pistols, dropping the .40 S&W in the process. It’s not that the .40 S&W failed to deliver the terminal performance they wanted. It’s just that the new breed of 9mm ammunition can deliver similar performance without the generally snappier recoil and the accelerated wear (on both pistol and shooter), at a more affordable price. The fact that the new pistols can house more of the cartridges in the same sized gun is an added bonus. These agencies have also taken an honest look at the demographics of their personnel, and have accepted the fact that law enforcement officers no longer come in just one size—Large. Instead, there are many officers with smaller hands and shorter fingers who find it difficult to reach the controls on larger caliber pistols with their corresponding larger frames. Despite all the ergonomic advances in pistol design of the last three decades, there is no way of getting around the fact that a .45 ACP pistol (and particularly a wide-body .45) is just going to be bigger in the hand and a .40 S&W in a smaller frame is going to recoil more. A smaller-frame pistol in a milder shooting caliber allows more officers to achieve the control necessary for good shooting, and makes sense for diverse agencies that want to standardize on a single gun and caliber. You heard it here first. Well, less than a month later. .40 is dead. 9mm rules. Deal with it. | ||
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Good job P Dog. This is huge. Any opinion on which pistol they will go with ? G19 ? I will read that link first chance I get, thanks for posting that. For the record, I like 9MM, I also like .45 ACP, never been a huge fan of the compromise round .40 SW. Cold Zero | |||
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There are millions and millions of 40 cal pistols out there it is not going away any time soon | |||
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Be interesting to see how it all plays out and if they ever decide to change the "one size fits all" approach. for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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Here is the REAL reason they are going back to the 9mm.... Women and the "girley" Men agents, cannot handle the recoil of the 40. The 40 is the same size handgun as the 9mm. It is the Recoil.... My statement is not a personal attack, it is just the facts. Remember I spent over 30 years in "the business"... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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 Yep!Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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You are absolutely 100% right! | |||
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The little ladies of the SAS still use 9mm. | |||
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IMHO the trend in law enforcement is to let the officer decide upon whether he/she wants to carry the 9mm, 40 or 45. The only common thread is the required platform (usually Glock). | |||
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This is always been dependent on department policy I see no different now then when I started in law enforcement 36 years ago. The first department I worked for I could carry any thing I wanted to and did. The last one a state agency strictly regulated what one could carry. With Some leeway for BUGs. No new trend just different times. | |||
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Many factors go into firearms selection and caliber for a department caliber is just one of them. Officer size is another, price and others factors come into play I to 33 plus years on the job and spent the last 5 years on my 500 person department firearms committee and senior firearms instructor. Having trained hundreds of recruits with every thing from mild 38 target ammo to full house 44s. Its was/is not recoil most of the time that the poor shooters were having trouble with. It is/was attitude lack of previous training being brought up with all guns are bad, I really don't like them, I really don't care I didn't get into this job for guns, No body can tell me what to do or how to do it. I had many recruits tell me they never touch a firearm of any type un tell we issued them. I could tell that day what recruits we were going to have trouble with. Those kind of look at their weapons like they were a poison snake. Afraid to touch them or pick them up even after they knew they were unloaded. Those that are or willing to learn can learn to shoot, those that don't care or don't want to a 22 short pistol can be a problem. No full 44s are not for every one nor are light recoiling 38 wad cutters the answer. Weapon selection no matter who it is military law enforcement will always be a compromise. When trying to standardize. . | |||
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The reason is clear. Hands that grow up typing on keyboards and tapping touchscreens don't develop the same as hands that grow up swinging bats, chopping wood, pulling weeds, and doing chores. . | |||
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There is a lot to that and the attitude that go along with hard work. | |||
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The reason the FBI went to 10mm was a result of the Miami incident when the FBI attempted to arrest the 2 bank robbers, the fact is only one of the two actually did the shooting and that individual received a fatal hit in the chest by a 9mm before he ever started shooting and was still able to continue solely by himself before dying from his wounds The FBI looking to place blame put it on the guns, even tho these agents knew they where staking out a bank against heavily armed and already proven killers and as I recall only one shotgun was used by the FBI, the others had their service pistols including one who lost his 9mm which he placed on the seat of his car and when he rammed the bad guys car it went out of reach, the agent resorted to his back up a 5 shot revolvers, the fact was these guys where wanting to get out of the office on a nice Friday afternoon and just picking out a bank to end their shift. Surely no one would think to encounter heavily armed killers without superior fire power. At the time S&W was experimenting with their 45acp frame with the powerful 10mm ammo. FBI quickly jumped on this idea and place an order for these large frame pistols as a remedy to what happened in Miami What happened was a nightmare which demonstrates how the bureaucrats react to a bad decision. The average FBI hire is a college graduate with a squeaky clean record, the vast majority never fired a gun and many where women. The FBI makes firearms proficiency a mandatory part of there employment, when they carried revolvers as I recall they had a failure rate in the 30% area meaning they would be terminated. Now comes the huge fire breathing hand cannon, due to its size few people in the bureau could handle these guns safely and that was before they pulled the trigger, the failure to meet the firearms standard jumped into the 50% bracket. Now each agency has a budget to deal with, the hiring process and training cost are astronomical....the 10mm was becoming a problem and not a solution and that was during the time that these hand cannons started breaking since the 45 frame could not handle the stresses from the 10mm, walla the birth of the 40 cal. S&W dropped the 10mm completely and hung there hat on the lower power round Again the problem of a heavy gun heavy recoil of the 40 is becoming a problem again and the feds have to realize that a handgun is a defensive weapon not an offensive weapon and when you encounter a bad guy with superior fire power odds are you will come out on the short end If you look at the Chicago Police force, it took 9/11 to convince the powers to be to arm these guys with AR rifles even tho they dealing with gangs armed with assault weapons for years. NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
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Can someone post the solicatation to bid for these 9MM Pistols? Place your bets, any predictions ? Cold Zero | |||
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https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=op...ea&tab=core&_cview=0 NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
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I surprised that they didn't require +P+ ammo specs. | |||
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Interesting. I have two M&P pro pistols one in 9mm and one in 40. I would rather shoot the 40 with 180 grain bullets than the 9mm with 115 or 124 grain bullets. I find the 9mm with those bullets has more abrupt recoil than the 40 with 180's. I have talked with other competitive shooters who make similar comments.... | |||
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Same here, Auto; I shoot 165g max loads in my .40 M&P While the recoil is stiff, it is still manageable, I find 180g to be easier on the arms. 124g +p in a 9 is pretty stiff; still factory ammo in .40 really shouldn't be a big deal Doug Wilhelmi NRA Life Member | |||
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If they can't shoot, maybe they ought to just be an accountant. DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
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p dog shooter's comments about attitude of the new crop of recruits and his total experience wrings so true. I too spent a career with a gun and will vouch for his unbiased experience. I will throw my 2 cents worth of opinion off the top of my head of needed priorities. 1. An environment that does not crucify you when using your firearm.......no matter how just. 2. lowering the standards to qualify incompetence. 3. Limiting training due to budget restraints. 4. Having department heads and political appointees with limited firearm experience decide what equipment to carry and not at their detriment. My requirement on or off duty, ccw 1. Become extremely skilled. 2. Always have a gun with you with quick access. 3. A dependable pistol that will go bang every time and not prone to jamming. 4. Quality holster that provides retention and fast draw. 5. Reasonable accuracy with quality sights such as 24/7 big dot sights. 6. Most lethal ammo available. 7. Appropriate caliber for the job. 8. Hope you never have to use it. | |||
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What "heavy recoil"? They went with the .40 over the 10mm due to the much lessened recoil. Does mean that the FBI is so woosified that they can't handle even the .40 recoil?! The cry of the FBI is: Halt! You are surrounded by lawyers and accountants!! Not policmen. Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, Varmint Hunters' Assn., ARTCA, and American Legion. "An armed society is a polite society" --Robert Heinlein via Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC Caveat Emptor: Don't trust *Cavery Grips* from Clayton, NC. He is a ripoff. | |||
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Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, Varmint Hunters' Assn., ARTCA, and American Legion. "An armed society is a polite society" --Robert Heinlein via Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC Caveat Emptor: Don't trust *Cavery Grips* from Clayton, NC. He is a ripoff. | |||
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Meanwhile the Army is soliciting for a handgun thats more effective than 9mm. LOL! It's sad but true as has been stated. We are accepting mediocrity rather than face scrutiny. Along with this though, I'm tired of seeing cops with a bully mentality, armed and equipped like they're in the sandbox. If they must act like a bully because they lack composure were in a downward spiral. There was a time I respected LEO's. Now I feel as threatened by them as any criminal. At least the criminal isn't wearing a disguise. | |||
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BigNate: Buddy, you need to switch to decaf. Perhaps you need to look inward regarding your paranoid view towards the police. Never forget; the ONLY attitude you can ever change is YOURS. | |||
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Good advice, take heed. The fact is BigNate is correct. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I stand with Big Nate also. More and more frequently they are using storm trooper tactics when it's is not necessary, in order to justify the expense of their swat teams and expensive military toys. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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Big Nate is correct. I watched MtCarmel burn to the ground while eating pizza. I have never seen such an unprofessional goat roping. | |||
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I can't imagine anyone thinking a .45 ACP has recoil affecting accuracy. Apparently some folks do. To me, it's the only logical choice of currently produced options. My only question is why someone doesn't build a .50? | |||
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Not only that, the local fuss did a remodel with thick glass and you have to yell just to communicate with the chick behind the glass. They can piss away money like crazy. I guess they figure the next little piss ant town down the road is going to invade this piss ant town. It is completely unjustifiable. 911 produced lots of useless boogie man spending, like chevy tahoes and suburbans and spandex ninja suits. As if all this spending would prevent another 811. Like the DEA's undistinguished track record of zero benefit/dollar spent. These guys have many complexes and an unlimited budget. Under the pretense that is all of some actual benefit. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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More SUVs are more a cause of the big block rear wheel drive sedan police vehicles going away. No more crown Vics. I started out driving a Dodge police vehicle a 1976 was the first one. Ended up driving a police package Tahoe a much nicer cruiser for rural law enforcement. The change over started before 911. | |||
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Unfortunately yes along with many small statured individuals... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Sorry, but Big Nate is merely sharing his (ignorant) OPINIONS, not FACTS. Learn the difference......... | |||
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More Federal PC BS. Read between the lines and you will see that the woosies (and females) can't control a measly little .40cal and need to move to the minuscule 9mm. The 9mm cartridge is only good for women and Europeans. Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, Varmint Hunters' Assn., ARTCA, and American Legion. "An armed society is a polite society" --Robert Heinlein via Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC Caveat Emptor: Don't trust *Cavery Grips* from Clayton, NC. He is a ripoff. | |||
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I still think the 40 S&W is a damned fine cartridge, and coupled with a good pistol, would be as affective for personal protection as anything in the showcase... switching to a 9mm is no substitute for shooting practice. | |||
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Yep. A SIG, BHP, or 1911 in .40cal is a fine weapon. Personally, I give the edge to the .45ACP, but unfortunately, the BHP can't be chambered in that particular caliber. Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, Varmint Hunters' Assn., ARTCA, and American Legion. "An armed society is a polite society" --Robert Heinlein via Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC Caveat Emptor: Don't trust *Cavery Grips* from Clayton, NC. He is a ripoff. | |||
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If you researched the reason the FBI switched to the 10mm was attributable to the disastrous incident in Miami the power to be in an attempt to place blame blamed it on the weapon which was 9mm and 38spl, I won't go into detail but the FBI looked around for the most powerful higher capacity package around. SW was attempting to put together a 10mm on the 3rd generation 45acp frame, FBI made the decision to switch to this pistol. What happened was one of the biggest mistakes. FBI makes firearm proficiency a critical part of employment meaning if they can't achieve a high level of proficiency and marksmanship they would be terminated. When the FBI was issued revolvers they experienced a firearm failure rate in the mid 30% failure rate. This is attributed to the HIGH standards to get hired, mainly young men and woman just out of college or law school, most never fired a weapon very few with any police back ground since the FBI wants to mold these agents from the start. When the 10mm was issued the size of these handguns ,the recoil and muzzle flash from their guns and the guns around them became a real problem leading to a fail rate the jumped into the 50% bracket. Now consider it costs the government $100 of thousands of dollars to train a agent they would need to hire twice as many just to come up with the agencies needs. Now when the 10mm guns started coming apart since the frame could not handle the ballistics of the 10mm, SW created the 40 cal and discontinued the 10mm. FBI sticking to their commitment immediately switched to the 40 cal. Now I have no idea as to the reasoning for bailing on the 40 cal, I can only guess it is a product of size weight and recoil since I have not heard of any structural problems with the handguns.
NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
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My dad was in federal law enforcement from 1950 until 1972, and also worked in the security service in Los Alamos NM between 1947 and 1950, and is also a WWII vet. During his tenure as a "fed" he carried 3 different guns, a Colt Detective Special, Colt Cobra and his last firearm was a Colt Agent, all 2" barrels. One of the many talents he had was that he COULD shoot. I saw him many times put 6 shots on a man sized target at 50 yds. one handed with his Agent. The emphasis today seems to be on "just carry more ammo" rather than TEACH how to shoot. I saw a local PD officer with a Glock 17 on his duty belt. He also had 4 extra magazines. So that meant he had 86 rounds on him. Now if you think about it, the average GI during WWII who carried a Garand had a belt that held, I think, 10 clips of 8 rounds each, plus one in the gun, for a total of 88 rounds. My point to all this? Many shooters with small to large hands shoot all sorts of single stack, double stack, 45's, 40's, 9mm's etc. during competition. If you ever watch some of the events of IPSC or other similar events on TV, you will see that some of the competitors are of a "stature" that would probably prevent them from making it into the FBI. But just watch them shoot! What gives them the ability to accomplish the speed and accuracy they need to win is PRACTICE. So instead of getting rid of all the current arsenal and replacing it with new firearms, plus all the ammo needed for that switch, the holsters, and anything else needed when you buy a new duty firearm, why not spend that on ammo and make the agents PRACTICE to become proficient. I can't remember where I first heard the quote, but something along the lines of, "I am much more afraid of a man with a well worn, beat up pistol than one with the newest whiz bang, super duper set up since the first man probably spent his extra money on ammo." By the way, that was a paraphrased quote, can't remember the exact quote but that was the gist of it. | |||
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Re CONGOMIKE how did Dad cope with the awful Colt grip profile? I've owned Colt New Service in .44 Spec., .45 Colt, .455, Colt Trooper Mk III, Detective Special "old school" with the unshrouded rod. To a one they were great sing action, or even double action for two shots. But fire all sixe one after the other as on a Police Pistol course or the British "Surrenden" (six shots score = gun score on target minus time in whole seconds) and all torque upward in the hand. Such that by the end the hand and gun are no longer aligned when you took up the revolver. | |||
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When I started with the fed I carried the following firearms Old style Colt detective, new style colt detective special S&W model 15 2", colt diamonback 2.5", 4" Colt python, P226 sig and ended my career with the sig 225 since I wore out the 226 I had a greater choice on what I carried since I either ran the firearms program or played a active role under someone else Yes for most of my career I carried 12 or 18 rounds. When the switched over to semi that went up to an incredible 45 rounds or more. Now think of the weight a full size sig 45 rounds of ammo, handcuffs, mace, small flash lite and maybe a collapsible convincer plus a bullet proof vestand maybe a backup gun plus ammo and this all needed to covered by a suit coat. Try it sometimes especially when its in the 90's and your in and out of a hot car, if your lucky the air might work, fat chance for a new agent since he would get the oldest car. Now about how proficient the agent are, they are on a whole good to extremely good since they would be fired if they weren't. Are they on a par with the top shooters in the country for the most part no but there are a few who could maybe keep up As far as practice, when I worked we would fired at least 1000 rounds a year in qualifications sometimes more, we could draw as much practice ammo during the year as we needed, again some used a lot some didn't The government only uses factory ammo, no reloads, the ammo is purchased under contract so their is little left over. The larger agencies are always testing ammo and guns and are exposed to all type of exposure to companies who are trying to get the contacts. Most if not6 all shooting situations are analysis for weapon and ammo performance and this info is used as a basis for what will be used in the future. As far as them getting new guns this happens every 5 to 7 years as the useful life for most guns in use was well less than 10K rounds. When we had the 226 sigs alot of problems developed around the 5 to 6K rounds. NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
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