HP,I agree of course however when has the law mattered to the law?It has only been a few years back that they stopped doing "routine" traffic stops here in Texas.There is a term for that,it's called fishing + the end result is revenue. How many laws do you think you have broken since you got out of bed this morning?A good many we have never heard of. Case in point;I have a friend that is a Travis County Deputy who shows up at my shop when he has time to kill + shoot the breeze. My son worked at TxDOT at the time + I had an old car battery setting there for him to take to the disposal area. He says "You know I could arrest you for that." What? "That battery sitting on the ground. The environmental lobby had a law passed that outlaws batteries sitting on the ground;put a piece of wood under it + you're safe."He said,"We rarely use that one unless we want to get in somewhere + don't have a warrant."

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Some more info on open carry and having to show a permit. full story at link

http://www.freerepublic.com/fo...oggers/3470325/posts

On 27 February, 2016, Brett Sanders was arrested while openly carrying a firearm in Texas. He had refused to show the officers of the Southlake, Texas, Police Department, any identification or a Texas carry permit. Brett Sanders is an open carry and liberty activist.

...........And is as dumb as a rock! It is dummies like him who will sooner or later get our gun ownership right revoked! In Texas if you are carrying a handgun you are required to show a permit to do so if asked for it by police. Any reasonable person would not even think of refusing to present his permit to carry. The permit is displayed, case closed!

If Brett Sanders had simply produced his permit nothing would have happened except he would not have been in the news, which was his reason for refusing in the first place, to draw attention to himself. That worked, because it made him look stupid, contrary to his belief that it made him look courageous!

quote:

If Brett Sanders had simply produced his permit nothing would have happened except he would not have been in the news, which was his reason for refusing in the first place, to draw attention to himself. That worked, because it made him look stupid, contrary to his belief that it made him look courageous!

Mac:

The problem was the dumb SOB didn't have a CCL or as they are now known a LTC to display and he was openly breaking the law, in Texas a Class A Misdemeanor, punishable by up to $4000 fine and up to a year in jail. Frankly, I can't believe they dropped the charges.

And why do you have open carry in Texas now.

Must be all the hard work you guys did for open carry.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
And why do you have open carry in Texas now.

Must be all the hard work you guys did for open carry.

p dog shooter, I have had my CHL in my pocket since 3 months before the license was effective to carry concealed. When I went to CHL class someone asked the instructor why the license was only for concealed carry. His reply was that open carry would be dangerous, because it would give the criminal advance information as to who would be a danger to him, so making the legal carrier a first target for the criminal to take out.

If the bill to legalize open carry had been put up to popular vote I would have voted against it! The one change in law I would have voted for is the change that allows one to carry a loaded firearm in his/her vehicle even without a license. That is now considered an extension of your HOME, and is now legal in Texas.

The only time I carry openly is when hunting, or on the ranch, where the handgun, rifle, or shotgun is simply a tool that most ranchers have used legally throughout the history of Texas. Texas is a full 90% private property and it has always been legal to carry on private property just not in town till the CHL license became legal.

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quote:

If the bill to legalize open carry had been put up to popular vote I would have voted against it!

So you did nothing for the open carry movement having a CHL proves nothing.

I can find instructors that do not hold that opinion including myself.

Feel free to post any story's or times that an open carrier has been targeted because of his or her open carry.

CCW permit instructors have a vested interest in keeping the permit structure going. There is no money to be made with constitutional carry/permit less carry or permit less open carry

We now have 11 states with permit less carry and more that allow permit less open carry.

Feel free to show me or the rest of us all the blood in the streets and other problems in those states.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

If the bill to legalize open carry had been put up to popular vote I would have voted against it!

So you did nothing for the open carry movement having a CHL proves nothing.

I can find instructors that do not hold that opinion including myself.

Feel free to post any story's or times that an open carrier has been targeted because of his or her open carry.

CCW permit instructors have a vested interest in keeping the permit structure going. There is no money to be made with constitutional carry/permit less carry or permit less open carry

We now have 11 states with permit less carry and more that allow permit less open carry.

Feel free to show me or the rest of us all the blood in the streets and other problems in those states.

You get me wrong sir! There is no blood running in the streets because law abiding people have a right to carry a handgun. However lets look at a happening that became quite often in the Dallas/Fort Worth are a few years ago, that gave reason to that thought process.

There were several instances of three or four young gangs who would walk into a late night restaurant and move to all the exits while one would go to the cash register and pull a gun on the teller. When the money was taken from the register, the rest would then pull guns and rob all the customers. The Key being the ones guarding the doors would keep an eye on all the patrons to see that none of them would interfere. In a situation like that anyone who was openly carrying would have been targeted if he tried to help. That was one reason open carry put that person at a disadvantage.

Another thing that happened since the open carry was made into law, was several people had
their weapons stolen, by simply walking up
behind them and snatching their pistol out of
their holster, then using there own gun to rob them or at least make it impossible to regain their own weapon.

IMO the safest place for my weapon in under my shirt and in my control, till it is needed.

You may do as it suits you as long as it is legal, but a little common sense would tell you that it is not the best idea anyone ever had to give an opponent the advantage of knowing in advance that you are armed. That little secret may just give you a slight advantage when it could mean your life or the life of one of your family.
..........The old saying is "Opinions are like another orifice, everybody has one!" The above is mine, and not a mandate for you or anyone else to agree!
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

quote:

Another thing that happened since the open carry was made into law, was several people had their weapons stolen, by simply walking up behind them and snatching their pistol out of their holster, then using there own gun to rob them or at least make it impossible to regain their own weapon

Is this the one you are referring too.

http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2...cket-at-phoenix.html

As you can see it is a rare thing feel free to post more if you know of them.

Armed robbers are what they are feel free to post cases where open carriers were shot first because the criminal saw their firearm.

One can speculate and but forth rumors and stories heard around but the facts do not prove them out.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Another thing that happened since the open carry was made into law, was several people had their weapons stolen, by simply walking up behind them and snatching their pistol out of their holster, then using there own gun to rob them or at least make it impossible to regain their own weapon

Is this the one you are referring too.

http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2...cket-at-phoenix.html

As you can see it is a rare thing feel free to post more if you know of them.

Armed robbers are what they are feel free to post cases where open carriers were shot first because the criminal saw their firearm.

One can speculate and but forth rumors and stories heard around but the facts do not prove them out.

PDS, first the one you posted was the same thing, but there were several in the D/FW area very soon after open carry was made legal in Texas.

You can have the opinion you want, but failing to take into this the fact that one needs to guard against all probabilities when dealing with safe guarding ones self and others by taking the potentials when dealing self defense. This no different than using a push feed rifle that is prone to jamming, when a control feed rifle that is more likely to work when one is in the target of a charging lion.

The key to the best outcome is to avoid as many possibilities as possible before the need arises.

Nowhere have you seen me post that the right to carry openly should be made illegal but if you choose to do so, just be aware of the down sides attendant to that action.

Simply because you have never been in a tornado, doesn't mean you wont. The same goes for any action that one needs to guard against before or IF it happens.

You can quote statistics all day long but when something goes contrary to your statistics it is too late to change your thinking.

I will not argue with you on this subject, because it will never change your opinion on this subject. My opinion is a full 180 degrees opposite from yours, and so you carry the way you want, and I will carry the way I want. We simply will have to agree to disagree!

......................Over and out!

quote:

PDS, first the one you posted was the same thing, but there were several in the D/FW area very soon after open carry was made legal in Texas

Really please post the news stories about them

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

PDS, first the one you posted was the same thing, but there were several in the D/FW area very soon after open carry was made legal in Texas

Really please post the news stories about them

That seems to be your favorite pass time, If you want them be my guest!

....................................................................BYE!

The promotion of constitutional rights should be every firearm owners past time.

It is a wonder to me why some firearm owners do not want to promote and advance their constitutional rights.

Why they are so willing to give them up for the illusion of a little security.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
The promotion of constitutional rights should be every firearm owners past time.

It is a wonder to me why some firearm owners do not want to promote and advance their constitutional rights.

Why they are so willing to give them up for the illusion of a little security.

My friend , it is one thing to work to advance the rights of any American for any right, but not by breaking the law to get attention. I respect your passion for research, but backing others Like Brett Sanders who openly break the existing laws to make a point is not what I would call responsible work to gain lawful rights! You may do as it suits, I for one will abide by the existing law till it is changed to something else. You may consider refusal to show your permit to carry if you want, but be prepared to take the consequences. That permit is proof that you have the right under the existing law to carry concealed, or open in Texas, and if asked for it by a policemen it only makes common sense to produce it. If, however you do not have the permit and carry against the law then you are committing a class one misdemeanor, and you will be arrested.

Now you can burn the American flag and call It FREEDOM OF SPEACH if you want, but I will consider you a criminal if you do! Certainly the carrying of a firearm illegally is a more serious crime in a practical terms, and automatically makes you a criminal. I do not consider that freedom of speech either!

Civil disobedience seems common for some folks, and if one resorts to civil disobedience he must be willing to pay the price. That being said doesn't make people right only shows a lack of respect for the rule of law.

I carry daily, but I do it within the laws on the books. I have no respect for those who break the law period!

.............NOW I am through with this silly thread! BYE!

quote:

Originally posted by HPMaster:
So, you guys are saying that it is okay for the law to stop you because of the mere presence of a firearm? I do not get it. Do the cops have the power to stop any driver just because he is driving a car and a license is required to operate in public? Is mere possession of a firearm probable cause to suspect that a crime (of carrying w/o permit or any other crime) is or has or will take place?


Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), was a decision by the United States Supreme Court which held that the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures is not violated when a police officer stops a suspect on the street and frisks him or her without probable cause to arrest, if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime and has a reasonable belief that the person "may be armed and presently dangerous."[1]

For their own protection, after a person has been stopped, police may perform a quick surface search of the person’s outer clothing for weapons if they have reasonable suspicion that the person stopped is armed. This reasonable suspicion must be based on "specific and articulable facts" and not merely upon an officer's hunch.

SCOTUS declares mere presence NOT probable cause/ reasonable suspicion of a crime....


Sign. Where is the 4th Amendment?

Amazing that free people are willing to throw their freedom away for a false feeling of security. If one has broken no law then one should not be harassed, period.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Amazing that free people are willing to throw their freedom away for a false feeling of security. If one has broken no law then one should not be harassed, period.

.....and if he is carrying without a permit he is committing a crime! The reason for having the permit is to PROVE he can legally carry that firearm. That is the reason for the permit in the first place. SO,the police are supposed to just ASSUME someone carrying in plain sight has a permit to do so? In Bretts case he did not have that permit, and was committing a crime by carrying. How does that fact escape you?

My question is why do you think that permit in your pocket was issued to you? It is there to prove to the authorities that you are legally carrying, it can't do that unless it is presented .
.......ASSUME~ makes an ASS-out-of-YOU,and ME!

.............................................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Amazing that free people are willing to throw their freedom away for a false feeling of security. If one has broken no law then one should not be harassed, period.

.....and if he is carrying without a permit he is committing a crime! The reason for having the permit is to PROVE he can legally carry that firearm. That is the reason for the permit in the first place. SO,the police are supposed to just ASSUME someone carrying in plain sight has a permit to do so? In Bretts case he did not have that permit, and was committing a crime by carrying. How does that fact escape you?

My question is why do you think that permit in your pocket was issued to you? It is there to prove to the authorities that you are legally carrying, it can't do that unless it is presented .
.......ASSUME~ makes an ASS-out-of-YOU,and ME!

.............................................................................................

The charges were dropped, because Sanders did not break the law as written. You are assumeing tha Sanders broke the law. One can also assume that he was not breaking the law and was well within his rights under the law.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
.....and if he is carrying without a permit he is committing a crime! The reason for having the permit is to PROVE he can legally carry that firearm. That is the reason for the permit in the first place. SO,the police are supposed to just ASSUME someone carrying in plain sight has a permit to do so? In Bretts case he did not have that permit, and was committing a crime by carrying. How does that fact escape you?

My question is why do you think that permit in your pocket was issued to you? It is there to prove to the authorities that you are legally carrying, it can't do that unless it is presented .
.......ASSUME~ makes an ASS-out-of-YOU,and ME!

.............................................................................................

The charges were dropped, because Sanders did not break the law as written. You are assumeing that Sanders broke the law. One can also assume that he was not breaking the law and was well within his rights under the law.

Sir I am not assuming anything of the kind! He was breaking the law in TEXAS where he was carrying a handgun without a permit which IS the law in Texas. It is a crime to carry a handgun in Texas unless you have carry permit to do so! He did not have a permit!

If I assume anything it that you do not know the carry law in Texas, and like Brett you want the law to be what you want it to be, and until it is you will be committing a crime in Texas if you carry a handgun open or concealed if you do not have a permit to do so! The permit is your proof that you have that right, and if asked for it in Texas you are required to produce it or be arrested till it can be proved you have the right by LAW, PERIOD.

You may not like the law but you are required to abide by that law in Texas till it is changed to something else. You cannot disobey an existing law simply because you disagree with it, and if you do be prepared to suffer the consequences.

IMO the reason they dismissed had only to do with the fact that Brett was simply trying to get this in as a test case. Personally I believe he should have been prosecuted to the full extent of the law. People cannot just disregard a law simply because they disagree with it. Now if Brett had killed one of your family with that handgun and it was found he had no permit you sir would have been blaming the police for not disarming him.

Son you can’t have it both ways. Abide by the existing law or suffer the consequences! Sooner or later Brett is going to end up in prison if he doesn’t get his crap in a basket or get a permit to carry.

.......................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

quote:

Some lower courts have ruled that simply possessing a firearm is not reasonable suspicion of a crime, so a person may not be detained on that basis.

So, the cop has to wait for him to shoot someone berfore asking for the permit? Makes sense (I guess).
Peter.

Why should a permit be required? The Constitution already grants open carry?

And why should anyone assume that someone carrying a gun openly or concealed is going to commit a crime?

quote:

Originally posted by Kevin Rohrer:
[Why should a permit be required? The Constitution already grants open carry?

And why should anyone assume that someone carrying a gun openly or concealed is going to commit a crime?

Are you telling us that just anyone should be able to carry a fiream no matter his/her criminal record?

The right to do anything is limited by the content of ones character, and the only way to find who should be able to carry is with a background check. The permit in your pocket is proof that that background check was done.

I say if you are a law abiding citizen then go by the rules and get your permit, if you are
a criminal then forfeit that right.

The constitution rules are not for criminals but for law abiding citizens.

If your reading of the constitution is correct then it should be legal for prison inmates to carry a loaded firearm.

Quite acting like a spoiled child and simply prove your constitutional right to carry, by getting your permit.

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