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xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | ||
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Bad implementation. Bad training. The cops are left looking stupid because of lack of training based on advice presumably from the local prosecutor's office. The legislators will do nothing because they passed the law to get votes! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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The law states they can only ask for a permit if there is reasonable suspicion of a crime. Knowing one rights and what is legal is an important aspect of being a free citizen. http://www.gunwatch.blogspot.c...cises-2a-rights.html A pistol carrier in Connecticut was asked by a police officer to produce a permit. He asked the officer what the reason was for the officer asking for the permit. The officer replied with an expetive. From fox61.com: Brown told FOX 61 what happened next: "Well, you have a gun. So then he said, 'do you have a permit?' And I'm like why? He said 'because I (expletive) said so.'" But, according to the newly written law, police may only request a permit if there is reasonable suspicion of a crime. The officer did not arrest or detain Brown. I did some research into Connecticut law, and I did not find any recent change in the statutes about requirements to show a permit on demand. The law only says you have to carry the permit with you. If there was a change in the statute, I did not see it. There have been some recent court cases. Some lower courts have ruled that simply possessing a firearm is not reasonable suspicion of a crime, so a person may not be detained on that basis. From | |||
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Blame the citizen for knowing his rights and responsibilities. The city of Norfolk has paid the same person twice for wrongly arresting him for open carry. A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. | |||
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So, the cop has to wait for him to shoot someone berfore asking for the permit? Makes sense (I guess). Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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I guess you don't believe in the constitution. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Peter, are you one of the criminals in training the anti's are always talking about? You know, everyone is a legal gun owner until they commit a crime. A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. | |||
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In some folks eye, the cop should shoot the otherwise lawful open carrier (or any firearms possessor in public) simply because they are not submitting to the statist position that no one other than the govt has the power or authority (let alone right) to protect themselves. And, it seems, they walk amongst us. | |||
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Peter: Such failed Logic, the showing of a permit makes one no longer capable of committing an illegal act?? What the heck does the showing of a permit got to do whether a person has, is or about to shoot someone?? NONE! Shooting someone is a behavior. A permit is a piece of paper. So no: We don't have to: "So, the cop has to wait for him to shoot someone before asking for the permit? Makes sense (I guess)." The law says reasonable suspicion of a crime. If there is probable cause the LEO can ask for a permit. Otherwise he has to respect the law of open carry without challenging everyone taking advantages of their rights within it. Same as every other Law. To do otherwise is making law on the street, Courtroom, Oval Office and indeed Supreme Court room, and is what is ripping at the foundations of our Freedom. That foundation has some good sized holes in it now. More to come unless we the people educate ourselves in the cause of Freedom and stand for that over Tyranny. Tyranny does not have to be the N. Korean kind you know. Tyranny can also be simple valuing "my Safe Space" over Free Speech. One provides an individual a right to literally rule over public right of way to the detriment of everyone else while demanding silence from the self same person who is being restricted thus harmed. That is Tyranny. It is here. Regards, "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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P dog shooter, you are absolutely correct! However one must know his rights where he/she is confronted by police! In Texas if a person is carrying, open or canceled, he is required to show a permit to police. The person not having a permit IS committing a crime, and the police is authorized to ask for a permit if he sees a person carrying a handgun, open or concealed! Here we have always been required, if stopped for a traffic violation, when asked for a driver license, if we are carrying to also present our carry permit to the officer! At that point the policeman is allowed to disarm the driver, till the stop is over, which at the conclusion of the stop if no felony or wants or warrants are found he must return the handgun and let the driver go on his/her way. You are right! One must know his rights, as well as the rights of the police! IOW, if you are carrying a policeman has the right to ask for your permit. Because in Texas carrying a handgun or driving a car the police have the right to ask for your permit to do so! Here we cannot carry open or any other way or drive a car without a permit. Here we can only carry if we have a permit. Not every Joe Blow who owns a hand gun is allowed to carry. We have to go through a state back ground check, and federal background check, and qualify with a handgun, as well as take a class on the Texas penal code related to firearms use. If you are carrying and refuse to show a permit you are then committing an offence! Only a hard head would even think of doing this! ............................It seems all states are different in this respect! If you can carry in Wis and refuse to show your permit to the police fine, but you better not try that in Texas! The next sound you will hear is a barred door slamming shut! ......................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Peter, I realized you may be confused or not comfortable with guns. A person carrying a gun does not mean they are going to shoot someone. it does not mean they ever have any intention to shoot someone. it does not mean they ever have any intention to commit a crime and it does not mean they will ever commit a crime. Just like a person carrying a wrench doesn't mean they are going to hit someone with it, nor does it mean they are going disassemble someone's vehicle. If the law there states that an officer may not ask to see someone's open carry permit unless they suspect them of a crime, then the officers were wrong in this case. There is some grey area though. In most places, if the police are called, that is reasonable suspicion to investigate for a crime. So if the store owner called the police, they may have been in the clear to ask for a permit. Even if I don't agree with that and personally think the police should have told the store owner the man was doing nothing wrong and should ask the customer to leave if they have a problem with it. Here in SD, you do not need to tell an officer you have a gun or concealed carry permit when pulled over, but if they suspect something and have you leave the car and ask about a gun or permit, then you must tell them. You also don't need to have a permit to open carry here as most people here know that a person carrying a gun is most likely not going to shoot someone unless they are threatened. | |||
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You might want to read my post:
I am quite comfortable with guns thanks very much. I have a Florida CWP and make use of it quite often. I just see no need for open carry other than to tell people: "Look at me, Aren't I cool"! Having said that, the law is the law, and LEO's should be adequately trained on it's implementation rather than being hung out to dry. Peter Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Peter, Just because you do not approve of something that is legal, it is not incumbent on others to placate you. The incident above was flat-out police harassment of someone who had committed no criminal offense. What's next, banning the wearing of crucifixes, and Stars of David because some atheist might not approve of religious symbols? George  | |||
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HUH? Did you even bother to read my post, even after I posted it TWICE? And you are a "Moderator"? Peter Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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This is the post I was responding to.
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My thought is: Yes the cop has to wait for a crime before assuming one is going to be committed. In this case, the law has no apparent reasonable suspicion or Probable cause to do anything simply because a man is armed. Unless he was "brandishing", acting out of reason ( violating a law) etc, he gets to continue freely on his way. Otherwise, all men ( potential rapists) must be stopped, searched and questioned as to what they are about to do, all women, since they are potential prostitutes, same. All drivers may be drunk.... Living in a free society is risky.... Be responsible for your own security and we really don't need to have cops frisking everyone. That is not the PC way, I know. Sorry. | |||
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I'm not a fan of open carry. The only positive thing I see with it is if my pistol "prints" or if my jacket blows open and shows my holster inadvertently, I can no longer be prosecuted, not that I think that would have happened anyway. That said, if I were carrying open, I don't think I would take offense to an officer asking me for ID and a permit. | |||
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Finally someone gets it. It doesn't matter if he had the legal right to refuse to honor a reasonable request from a LEO or not. A bit of common sense and the whole situation would have been defused instantly. Instead he chose confrontation. I'm certainly not the biggest supporter of cops in general, but they have a tough job and why would a law abiding citizen go out of his way to make it tougher? In Texas, cops have the right to demand your LTC (license to carry) if you are open carrying. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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The road is full of people driving. You must have a license to drive. Can the police pull you over with the sole purpose of asking to see your drivers license? No. They have to have reasonable suspicion or probable cause. Just wanting to verify you have a license is not enough. Some states have a provision built into their concealed carry laws that require the permit holder to produce his permit upon demand by law enforcement without cause. By signing off on the permit he agrees to it. If he doesn't agree, he isn't issued a permit. All law enforcement needs do is determine the person is carrying concealed and they are allowed to ask for the permit. If he refuses, they have him. If he is licensed he just refused to show his permit and it is a crime. If he is not licensed then he has no permit to show and it is a crime. Either way they have him if he doesn't produce a permit. I am surprised they don't have similar verbiage in Connecticut's open carry law. . | |||
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HPmaster. I try to be politically correct. That is I deliberately try to not use language that is offensive or rude even though such langauge may be legal and indeed encouraged by folks like you. Just the way I was raised I guess. As has been stated above by more than one poster, the police have a difficult enough job without me adding to the difficulty, even though it is "my right" I suppose. I have also stated that the problem would not have existed if the law had been sufficiently thought out and implemented with the appropriate LEO training. I wonder if law enforcement had been consulted or given the opportunity to provide input? Somehow I doubt it. I suspect that the legislators who proposed and supported this were just trying to show how "conservative" they were so that they would get reelected. A noble trait I guess. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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So if the police decide that open carry should not be legal then it should be illegal, Citizen's Rights be damned. I suppose if they opposed concealed carry than it too should be illegal. Why would a law abiding citizen need to hide a gun during the course of the day? The fact is that the police decide to ask for a permit that he has to carry not produce on demand. The police further attempted to persuade the Subway not to serve the Citizen while he was not breaking a law. The statement that businesses complained was not substantiated. A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. | |||
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Neither would I. Show your permit and hit the trail already.
Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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I believe Gato is right, although I don't open carry, so I haven't studied the new law carefully. In Texas, every holder of a concealed carry permit (CHL) must, if stopped by the police, even on a routine traffic stop or otherwise, identify themselves as a CHL holder and advise the officer whether they are carrying at the time or not. It is my understanding that you can only open carry in Texas if you have a CHL and it is my understanding that they expressly put a provision in the law that allows a LEO to approach anyone that is carrying open and ask to see their permit. I'm as conservative as they come and I think that's all good; assuming you allow open carry in the first place, which I was against. | |||
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Here in Colorado we've always had open carry w/o permits. Still that way. CCW: yes, IF asked we must show it. Not required to say we have and are armed if pulled over, that's a courtesy. I do that and never had a problem. As a teenager I used to visit a range in the basement of a local downtown hardware store and carried openly down the street/sidewalk. A cop asked if my gun was loaded and where I was going. "brown's range to shoot, yes it's loaded". "ok, be safe with it and have fun that's a nice range". Couldn't do that now as they're made it illegal to even own a handgun unless 21 or older. I started going to that range wearing my revolver when I was 16. I see open carry now and then. Sometimes I'll speak to the person mostly to ask what gun it is or cal as I'm not all that familiar with semiauto's. George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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It appears that some do not know exactly what "probable Cause" is by definition according to law.. Probable cause is those circumstances that would lead a reasonable person to believe his life is in danger or a crime has been or is being committed..This has been a court ruling for a decade or two.. Based on that the courts have allowed that if you feel your life or someone elses life is in danger then you have the right to defend yourself or theirs.. As to packing a pistol for the world to see is IMO extremely stupid to the ultimate! it rates as "Hey, look at me I'm armed and I'm Mr.badass" therefore shoot me first is probable. Any police officers with experience, would prefer open carry by citizens as opposed to concealed. I know I would have when I was a policeman. That's a warning signal to be prepared, concealed can sneak up on ya. Concealed carry is a definate plus to your survival ..SURPRISE is an absolutely important elliment in ones' survival IMO. This ain't a game, and there is no second place in a gunfight. Under the present administration and those that follow its teachings, totally ignoring the constitution, such rulings are made my liberal judges that as opposed to interpreting the law, they choose to make law on a case by case bases, a very dangerous propostion to the welfare of the nation.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Everyone has their own take I guess, I was raised to have some consideration for others (forums didn't exist then and are exempt  ) so I won't carry open in a public setting. I see no advantage other than making oneself the first target in a crowd and in these times it will certainly upset or distress numerous people in public."Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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My thought also, just some cops on a power trip. | |||
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I carry concealed because I want to have the ability to defend myself and mine w/o anyone's fore knowledge that they may be at risk of countervailing force. I avoid most stupid places like stadiums, bars, dark alleys and the like simply because I have no articulable (is that a word?), intelligible reason to be there. I discuss the 2A, my faith in Christ and other natural essential rights issues in public whenever the opportunity presents itself- all the while knowing that the person(s) I am talking to do not know that I am armed: I am reasonably persuaded if they can so do with intellect and prudence. So far, no one has changed my mind, nor attempted to force me..... I carry to kill if need be, not to display or instill fear; I discuss to convince or to elucidate an issue. Separate issues, separate methods. | |||
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hhmmmm i used to like subway sandwiches....... guess i'll add that francise to the other places i WILL NOT PATRONISE........................................ | |||
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Eight months late, and blaming the wrong people. Read the news. A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. | |||
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Some more info on open carry and having to show a permit. full story at link http://www.freerepublic.com/fo...oggers/3470325/posts On 27 February, 2016, Brett Sanders was arrested while openly carrying a firearm in Texas. He had refused to show the officers of the Southlake, Texas, Police Department, any identification or a Texas carry permit. Brett Sanders is an open carry and liberty activist. | |||
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The guy was absolutely breaking the law and you seem to think he's some kind of hero. This is a good example of why people need to show a permit if asked. I'll almost guarantee that if he keeps it up, he'll see the inside of a jail for a while. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Now Gato just sit in the back of the bus and enjoy the ride. | |||
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Here's another positive open carry from Texas report. http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2...estival-between.html | |||
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Yeah, I think people who commit Class A misdemeanor offenses punishable by up to 1 year in jail and/or $4000 in fines should be your heroes. If you want me to be on the bus with morons like your buddy in this example, I'll walk. Just like the guy who was spearheading the Black Lives Matter protests in Dallas where the cops were killed, who was, as it turns out, violating his parole terms. He's doing 5 years now. I've got no problem with the second example.
xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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No shit? That idiot with the AR15 was busted? I need to look that up. Since there are no "likes" or "rep points" here, heres a  for you, Mr Gatagordo. I'm with you. "Finally someone gets it. It doesn't matter if he had the legal right to refuse to honor a reasonable request from a LEO or not. A bit of common sense and the whole situation would have been defused instantly. Instead he chose confrontation."Exactly right. Cops have a tough enough job. Dave | |||
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I don't believe that is correct. I believe you only are "required" to present if you are carrying. . | |||
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JTEX,you are correct. You do not have to produce your license if you are not carrying.However I think it is good policy to produce the license just the same;does'nt hurt anything + can help to diffuse a potential situation.Also as you already know that now that castle doctrine has been extended to your vehicle,you may now carry in your car w/o a license. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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The above post is simply common sense! If a person is required by law to have a permit allowing him/her to carry open or concealed, and refuses to show the police the permit, that act alone is justifies the policeman to REASONABLY suspect he doesn't not have the lawful right to carry open or concealed, which is committing a crime. Hard heads will sooner or later get the right to carry in any fashion taken away. In Texas the open carry of a rifle or shotgun needs no permit, and never has but that right is not extended to the carrying of a handgun open or concealed, that is allowed by permit only. There is absolutely no difference in the policeman asking for your carry permit than it is for him to ask for you driver's license. Come on guys Be a part of the solution not part of the problem for gun rights! ..................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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So, you guys are saying that it is okay for the law to stop you because of the mere presence of a firearm? I do not get it. Do the cops have the power to stop any driver just because he is driving a car and a license is required to operate in public? Is mere possession of a firearm probable cause to suspect that a crime (of carrying w/o permit or any other crime) is or has or will take place? Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), was a decision by the United States Supreme Court which held that the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures is not violated when a police officer stops a suspect on the street and frisks him or her without probable cause to arrest, if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime and has a reasonable belief that the person "may be armed and presently dangerous."[1] For their own protection, after a person has been stopped, police may perform a quick surface search of the person’s outer clothing for weapons if they have reasonable suspicion that the person stopped is armed. This reasonable suspicion must be based on "specific and articulable facts" and not merely upon an officer's hunch. SCOTUS declares mere presence NOT probable cause/ reasonable suspicion of a crime.... Sign. Where is the 4th Amendment? | |||
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