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Last night a demented individual crated a terrible tragity in my neighborhood. I, like many of the other CCW holder of this site wish I was in a postition to improve the outcome and reduce the loss of life. However, this narcasistic psychopath came prepared in a way that created addition difficulties for any CCW holder who may of engaged him. He was carrying an Remington 870 shotgun, an AR-15 clone, and a Glock 40. He was wearing a flackjacket (probably a PSAGT style vest), a Kevlar helmet, and Kevlar leggings, groin protector, and neck protector. After dropping two gas canisters (unknown if they were improvised or not) he racked the middle of the crowd with the shotgun, shooting over the people in the front rows. After emptying the shotgun, he dropped it, and pulled the AR. He then moved up the isle shooting down the rows of patrons with the AR (was he using FMJ's) attempting to hit multiple patrons with each shot. So, what carry gun and load would you have wanted? Keep in mind, this has to be something you can carry day-in, and day-out...Something you would actually carry to a movie. | ||
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Schizophrenia often reveals itself in the mid to late 20's and seems to affect some pretty intelligent individuals. Hard to protect yourself from this combination of evil and crazy. | |||
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I answered other....the type and caliber of weapon is a ridiculous question. The real question is why nobody was able to stop this event, with a hail of bullets and a bum's rush. any handgun, in the hands of a person capable of rational thought, and good marksmanship, in a high stress situation would have changed the outcome of this cluster fuck. when a coworker asked me about it today, I said "stay down and don't shoot until you have a good site picture" I will add now, go for a head shot. sounds like a head shot would have been the only likely way to stop this fuck quickly, without getting shot up with return fire from an AR. When all the bedwetters want to use this event as proof that nobody should have guns, ask them how long it took for the cops to show up? Personal responsibility is the only thing that can turn this society around an isolated nut case is not a good reason to restrict the liberty of all men. Train yourself and your loved ones how to handle weapons, carry one, be alert, and always have at least one plan "B" Someone with a handgun in that theater would have been in deep shit, but not as deep as everyone else that had to throw popcorn. With some situational awareness, aggression, surprise, and luck, you might have gotten a clean shot. PS, I carry a compact double stack 45 in every movie theater I have ever been in, too easy to get jammed up in a space like that. But you could pop up from between rows and nail somebody looking the other way. Fuck this shit pisses me off, | |||
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I selected a 1911. I would have waited if I could, until target was within about 7 yds and then engaged with 2-4 rds to his high COM and then re assessed. I think he would have been knocked down and then I would rapidly advance on him, if he was not knocked down followup 2 shots to his pelvic girdle. If his armor allowed him to get up from that, I would expend remaining rds at his head. That would have exhausted my 8 rds to work with and if I failed to place my shots, I would likely have been put down by that time. All my carry guns have a Trijicon front sight and while going to the movies I always have a 4 Sevens LD10 in my pocket. I hope the Movie Chain gets their ass sued off for not allowing CCW on the premises and failing to adequately protect thier customers. There is a 16 plex movie near me that had a similar, although not as bad shooting at it 20 yrs ago and they still have Armed Guards working there. Police had an excellent response time. RIP to those who did not make it. Cold Zero | |||
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[quote]but it would be hard to take multiple hits and stay funtioning for long. North Hollywood bank robbers didn't think so. One just has to read some Medal Of Honor stories to realise how a very modivated person can keep fighting after being shot to ribbons. Best one could hope for is to get one into a unarmored spot. | |||
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Cold Zero, I know that the police showed up quickly, but my point is: an armed cop in almost never going to be where you need him instantly, but a weapon on your person can/will, that is why individuals should go armed. The point about suing the theater for not protecting it's patrons is a practical consideration. I find the concept distasteful, and representative of a lack of personal responsibility. Our country's founding creed is based on individuals doing for themselves, and the government not being allowed to have undo legal sway over an individuals personal liberty. This event is horrible, but it is the result of a single, sick individual, and there is no way to deal with this sort of happenstance at an administrative level, and if you try, the rights of free men will be infringed. Rant off | |||
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My question is Colorado is a concealed carry state, If I am correct this was a multiple cinema complex meaning there was several hundred people at that location, even may have been some off duty Law enforcement, where was these CC? so in reality this has happened several times recently in our country, the shooting at the schools. the shooting of the senator and now this, you gotta ask what is the purpose for allowing CC, it took the police to put an end to this craziness, the punk was a tough guy who would shoot apparently defenseless people but not brave enough to shoot at the police who would have stood up to him and put where he belongs. Is it illegal to carry a concealed weapon into an establishment like this, if not where was the cc individuals, were they not brave enough to defend the defenseless? An old saying the truly brave are those individuals who run to what everyone else is running a away from. It seems if it wasn't for the law enforcement people who came to the rescue this idiot may have reloaded and brought this episode to a higher level. I think CC could have solidified it purpose in our society but once again it failed...I feel sorry for those families that have loss loved ones, things like this will force the powers to be to make laws to prevent episodes like this from happening again. Nothing personal JMO NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
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That theatre bans CCW. As is typically the case, the CCW holders obeyed the law, and left their guns at home. What this really demonstrates raamw, is another mass shooting in a gunfree zone. | |||
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Regardless of weapon choice, I think that the body count would have been less had ANYONE been returning fire! At least the shooter would have had his attention diverted and others might have been able to escape... | |||
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So, if they don't know you are carrying, and don't ask you about carrying, that it is legal to carry in that establishment? Or is this a "don't-tell- and-all-is-well" situation? | |||
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Yup, and, how do you know whether you possess these capabilities? How do we know that there were not CW carriers who ran, shitting in their pants, just like everyone else? It seems to me that we have this myth, that the only time CW carriers are present at the scene is when they use their weapons. Perhaps there were other occasions and they, not having the opportunity, wisely perhaps decided not to use their weapons. Having a gun is, IMHO, not the universal panacea that it is made out to be. Not saying that this particular case is one of them, though. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Shof, I don't disagree with your reasoning, anything going back in the other direction would be better then nothing, and helped the situtation. But ultimatly the goal it such a situtation should be to reduce civilain casualties, AND make it home to you family. In recent years we've seen several of these mass shooting incidents where the criminals were wearing body armor. This one, the texas courhouse (where although the CCW holder saved lived, he did not come out alive) and as Pdog mentioned, North Hollywood. I've viewed that tape several times. One shot until his long guns either jammed or ran out of ammo, and continued down the street shooting his pistol. It was actually a shot to the hand that debilitated him. As he was walking down the street, you could see the bullets bouncing off his armor. Each of those guys took 20+ hits. The second was finally put down when someone showed up with something that could penetrate his armor. Although we only have a few responses, I see it's running toward the bottleneck cartridges that can penetrate the soft body armor, and although some would still stick to their .45, no one chose the 9mm. Perhaps I should of asked, what do you feel would give you the best chance to stop the bad guy and survive? | |||
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Shoot to the areas that are not generally protected by body armor, head neck upper arm forearm hand lower extremities like the ankles feet ets, shots fire at the ground generally travel several inches above the ground. I don't care what caliber you are shooting unless you hit the guy in the steel plate he is gonna feel it, try the groin it should get a response NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
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Another prolem encountering a nutcase like this he is prepared to do what he intends to do, a cc guy probably has a limited amount of ammo so to engage a nutcase like this could be nothing more than a heroic act to buy time for the other people to get out of dodge. I myself knowing what I know would play possum in that this guy wasn't shooting at anyone person just a pray and spray he wouldn't know who he shot and who was playing possum as soon as he passed or got closer I would make a move on him provided I was in a reasonable position to stop him NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
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I guess I still don't understand. I assume this was a dark theater, smoke around and people running hither and thither. Would it not be rather difficult to: 1. Identify the shooter for more than a brief second at a time. 2. Would his lower body not be protected by the seat backs, other people running around etc. I think this would be absolute chaos, and, in the middle of this we are going to get a clear head shot, or clear lower body shot? I agree with the playing possum approach! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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I voted "other". In the dark I probably would not have known he was wearing body armour. But I might have gotten lucky anyway. My standard "carry" is a Glock 20, holding 16 rounds of 10 m/m, and I carry one spare 15-shot mag. All of my Glock ammo is from my stash of "Black Talon" stuff. That sure isn't where I would want to have to fight a gun battle (actually, nowhere is), but even if a stray round or two of mine ricocheted off something and hit someone other than the perp, it still likely would result in a lesser toll. My backup is a 9m/m snubbie revolver, also loaded with Black Talons. P.S.: I always follow the "Don't ask, Don't tell" rule; everywhere except at the VA Hospital where I may have to strip down for medical examination. But I have been known to carry in the bank, the post office, and lots of other places. Doesn't mean I always do, but if a guy is a baddie, he may well be there with foul intentions and, anyway, he's still gotta worry about folks like me. I'm a pacifist, but I have a real severe prejudice against robbers and murderers. I'll violate their civil rights any time they are doing their thing and I absolutely have to, to interrupt their work schedule. I just don't believe in waiting for an engraved invitation saying "I'm gonna go postal at the S&P on aisle 4, in Meadowlark Shopping Centre at 9:17 tomorow morning." | |||
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The catch 21 would be if you lied and got a gun in and you did the right thing...your a hero, kill/wound and innocent person they will hang you out to dry, you have to be able to make the decision and stand by the consequences....If you are 100% confident you can make the shot ...do it, good deeds generally reap the rewards NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
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I am not aware of a prohibition against carrying a concealed weapon in a Bank, at least not in Florida. The USPS being Federal might be different. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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That's why I don't ask and don't tell. In Oregon any business can ask you not to carry there and you either have to remove yourself and your gun, or at least your gun. At least that's how our Sheriff interprets it, and as he is the one issuing the carry permits, you violate that and your permit is gone. If I don't ask and they don't tell me, it is legal. It is illegal to carry in ANY federal building. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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No argument with you on this account. Peter, this theater was a "stadium seating" arrangement, so you would of had the advantage of height, and would be able to see and shoot over the heads of the other patrons. If those in front of you hit the floor, you MIGHT even be able to use the seat in front of you as a rest. But it would of been dark, the muzzle flashes would help you ident the bad guy, but I'm still not confident you could choose exactly where you wanted to hit him. Alot of this would just be a matter of where you were sitting related to him. | |||
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Other. What good is picking a gun that you think will work well that you are totally unfamiliar with? Proficiency and discretion can go a long way. My 2 and a half inch .357 would not be ideal gun but daily carry of a 1911 or other full size service pistol (92 or 226), or the 4" .44 listed is not very realistic either. I've carried the Beretta, SIG, and 1911 as ccw and open carry they have their draw backs. If I had one currently my answer would be Glock 30. If I had my unrealistic choice of gun to go against some one like this I want my Garand. As far as where you can carry. In Virginia you will be asked to leave if the property is posted no carry. After that you are tresspassing. A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. | |||
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Can a guy only be familiar with one gun? | |||
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I shoot most guns very well, but there are those out here who cant even shoot there only gun well let alone anything else. | |||
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I carry Springfield XDM 45acp with Trijicon HD nights sights and 40rds. of bonded Winchester PDX1 230gr, on me. Which 14rds. of them are in the gun. | |||
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In Texas there has to be a very specifically worded and posted notice in the form of a sign, card, or document (one of the latter two have to be given to a CCH) that prohibits legal concealed carry except for places like schools, federal buildings, bars, religious buildings, etc. and there are VERY specific requirements for the notice/sign to be a legal prohibition. It must be posted in a conspicuos place and must say specifically, in contrasting block letters one inch high on ONE sign, in English and Spanish:
These are known as 30.06 notices. Even if one letter is out of place or added, or if they use two pieces of paper to say all of the above, then the sign is not a legal prohibition. Relatively few places do it right. Of course, do you want to have to argue that in court? I go to the movies so seldom that I don't know and haven't looked to see if the closest one to me, in Texarkana (AMC) has one posted or not. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Really? And exactly how many of you--regardless of how armed and equipped--would have been able to hold your water, let alone engage the suspect? Really? Internet drivel. Absolute drivel. 114-R10David | |||
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I guess I'll never really know until I'm put into that situation. So in the meantime, I'll continue to practice with my handguns in the hope that I'll never have to use it. But I do know that I'll fight until death to protect my wife, children and friends. Anything more than that, I can't guarantee... | |||
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Shof: Bravo. God forbid you find yourself in such a situation. Your post tells me you have the right mind set and purpose for which you've chosen to carry a firearm. I'd bet on your survival. Anyone else who types----from the safety of their key board---what they would have done and what equipment they would have used and what shots they would have taken, is, well..... Internet drivel. Absolute drivel. 114-R10David | |||
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Spending years and tens of thousands of dollars to train to defend yourself and your family, is hardly drivel. Anyone who posts on the internet about what all should, or should not do, would or would not be able to do, is just internet boviating. Cold Zero | |||
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Couldn't agree more with your first point. Never said training and preparation are drivel. As to your second assertion, you make my point. 114-R10David | |||
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A firearm wasn't even necessary to gain the upper hand in Aurora. What was needed was something far less expensive and both more concealable and ready-at-hand: the willpower to do the right thing and stop the violence by taking control of the shooter. If people understand the situation the shooter placed himself in, they will realize the shooter had tunnel-vision and was focused only on who was in his sights. It would have been reasonably easy for anyone of any size to seize the initiative, walk up beside or behind the shooter, and plant him into the ground, then beat him into submission. At some point, others would have jumped in to help. Sadly, citizens are conditioned to not fight back and to shrink before those who are armed. The initiative to do something lied w/ the moviegoers; they chose not to exercise it because they had through inaction, chosen to be unprepared. CCW training should include a block of instruction on: 1. how to respond to such situations. 2. how to game-out in their minds different lethal situations and should be done before they happen. Since the shooting, I have gamed-out my response to the situation based on my training and experience, and whether I am armed or not armed. Should I ever be involved in such a situation, I already know what my response will be. Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, Varmint Hunters' Assn., ARTCA, and American Legion. "An armed society is a polite society" --Robert Heinlein via Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC Caveat Emptor: Don't trust *Cavery Grips* from Clayton, NC. He is a ripoff. | |||
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Ditto that. BTW you can't see shit through a gas mask especially in a dark theater.  Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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TWL It seems crystal clear that you are alone in your views, which are apparent that you feel that LE are elite and the rest of us are "unable to hold our water". Your views would be better received on all LE only web site, which last time I checked, AR is not. Shall we now talk about why LE has an ~11% hit rate in gunfights and how much superior LE training is compared to what is Commerercially available to Civilians who can't hold their water ? I just checked with a relative who was the Chief of the Largest Police Academy in the Country, he was unaware of any classes in teaching recruits how to "hold their water". LOL Cold Zero | |||
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Even though this is not the Thought Police controlled THR, how about we still be civil towards each other.  Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, Varmint Hunters' Assn., ARTCA, and American Legion. "An armed society is a polite society" --Robert Heinlein via Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC Caveat Emptor: Don't trust *Cavery Grips* from Clayton, NC. He is a ripoff. | |||
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Not to shit on the LEOs, but the country is full of combat vets that I trust more then most of the SWAT wanna-be, cops out there. Sorry, but a proven man trumps all the training the cops think they have. | |||
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Would've been awesome to hear that a CC holder was able to stop the shooting. I don't know if this guy would have stood his ground and continued to exchange fire with a CC holder or turn tail and run. You'll find out after you fire the first round. I don't want to draw the fire of a madman if my family is present. But I would fight back if the threat came too close. ________________________________________________ Never met a Colt I didn't like. | |||
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It is my undstanding that the theater was posted "No Firearms" and am guessing that the signs prevented an armed response. So much for "effective" gun control laws.  Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, Varmint Hunters' Assn., ARTCA, and American Legion. "An armed society is a polite society" --Robert Heinlein via Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC Caveat Emptor: Don't trust *Cavery Grips* from Clayton, NC. He is a ripoff. | |||
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You think those LAPD SWAT cops don't get into gunfights? And I suppose none are former military? Chuck | |||
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Gentlemen: I have publicly insulted many of you, and so, I will publicly apologize. I can now see that my remarks came off as both arrogant and insuling. Guilty. Immediately before I clicked on your thread I had been in a lengthy discussion with another group, dominated by several people who are supportive of CCW laws, but do not personally carry. The general theme was that it would have been "easy" for a CCW holder to simply jump up in the middle of the theater and "save the day." My frustration carried over to the AR thread. I painted you with a broad brush, in a very impolite way. The truth is that law enforcement cannot protect us from these kinds of incidents. And frankly, in many venues across the country law enforcement is both untrained and ill equipped for active shooters. We need to be prepared to protect ourselves. And I respect anyone, regardless of experience or skill level, who has made that decision. My remarks have been a distraction from a very important discussion among those of you who understand these matters. Again, I apologize. Best.....TWL 114-R10David | |||
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