I see such an incredible interest in CC, the need to protect

I am a retire LE, in my 24 years of LE including several years being the chief range instructor I can say certain things

The only way to carry a gun is if you have deep pockets behind you that will pay for the defense of exposing or using a weapon even when it is a justified shooting, imagine if you damage someone's property or god forbid hit or kill an innocent person that you mistaken or hit because of a missed shot? I have seen LE sued for years by bad guys who where shot in good shooting situation on criminal grounds not to mention civil suits that followed. Imagine a bad shooting?

My observations on great shooters when trained 4 times a year with a minimum of 250 rds per sequence was there scores dropped substantially when you exposed them to stress, like running 25 to 50 yards before engaging targets, equating to where did the missed shots go, in this case the back stop. Imagine your stress if someone is pointing or shooting back at you. There are many documented case where LE' got into face to face confrontation in which both parties emptied their guns at each other and neither where hit, where did those bullets end up?

A very high percentage of LE that are shot where shot by their own weapons since the bad guy knows what he is going to do and LE's are reactive or not properly trained in weapon retention. The only holster that can properly retain a weapon is one that is secured with a heavy belt, trigger covered with a secure snap over the hammer. Even with this instinctive training is required to make it work and it still boils down to who wants the gun more?
How would you protect a gun that is stuck in the flat of your back or waist band. Bad people know what to look for when they are scanning for weapons. In Chicago a uniformed Chicago PD came off his shift and was walking from the station to his car and was accosted by a guy who took away the cops duty weapon from his holster and shot him to death for no other reason that he could do it and it took a while to finally arrested the guy primarily because the guy was probably bragging about to the wrong person who dropped a dime on him for the reward.

Bad people with bad intent are very difficult to deal with and they have very little to lose, one reason why highly trained LE get shot (the little voice in the back of their head keeps telling me will I lose my job, house family or everything I worked for) this doesn't happen with the bad guys, they are wired differently. There is no recourse against a bad guy if he shoots you or an innocent party, maybe your wife or child, it is a game they play like gambling if they play their cards right they get to play another game...and some are very good at that.

With the 9-11 tragedy and the subsequent laws that followed retired LE are permitted to carry concealed weapons into any state. In the state of Illinois you much qualify once a year and carry liability insurance of 1 million dollars, one million dollars is not enough trust me, and qualifying once a year on a relatively simple test is surely not enough.

Don't get me wrong I am not against CC nor am I for it, just like I believe the death penalty is only appropriate at the time of the crime not 15 years latter, to me life in prison without parole is the best punishment not some humane injection that puts them into a sleep that they wouldn't wake up from

Just my thoughts nothing personal

Bad guys have an advantage, they KNOW they are the bad guys, and they get to pick the time and place to accost a citizen.

Even though LE's miss, or have their guns taken from them, I personally would still want the ability to defend myself/family.

If I'm not armed, the bad guy controls everything.

If I'm armed, at least I have a chance.

quote:

Don't get me wrong I am not against CC nor am I for it

Really? You sure fooled me.

You did a pretty nice job of presenting the Brady Campaign talking points, and a couple of what if's and one off incidents supporting a Nirvana Fallacy.

If you are not really just another "Only One" against CC, lets hear your arguments that support it. Some statistics might be nice. Maybe you can find some that describe under what conditions an civilian crime victim is least likey to be harmed?

quote:

Don't get me wrong I am not against CC nor am I for it,

Spoken like a cop. The local ding dong said crime was the fault of people that don't lock up their guns, speaking like a well-schooled fascist.

Personally I don't care what the police say or feel or do or anything else. They are primarily secretaries with guns. Going armed is better than not, under any circumstances.

They neither can protect me or solve much crime. The local fire department devours millions of dollars of taxpayer money and couldn't find my house a half mile away. But they can find all the grocery stores and restaurants!

If you are involved in a shooting tell the cop you feared for your life and call a lawyer. Don't speak another word to the cops. They are out to arrest someone not help you. Cops are not your friend no matter how much they spend on PR.

But nothing personal.

Go to "injustice everywhere" and then tell me what you think. Frankly I don't know or care what your reason for posting this was. cops shoot innocent people , bystanders, on a real regular basis. Actually your on the wrong forum, why dont you go to one of your nazi cop forums, youll get a lot of sympathy there.

Out of curiosity how would you determine who is the bad guy, after he sticks a gun in your face? sounds like your are willing to get in a quick draw with someone who already has a gun pointed at you?
Or will you pull the gun first, odds are you will get charged with assault with a deadly weapon. LE are allowed one up theory when dealing with people, meaning they can pull a gun first, you don't get that option.

quote:

There is no recourse against a bad guy if he shoots ..,your wife or child

So what, I'm supposed to just stand there and let him shoot my wife and kid, or am I supposed to just wait for you? I bet you are really good at drawing chalk outlines.

Where are those statistics I asked for, or are you afraid they will undermine your "Only One" theory?

What I am stating is you can't walk around pointing a gun at everyone that looks suspicious, bad guys pick their targets carefully. The probability is he going to surprise you when you least expects it and if you have your family with you, do you really want to get into a gun fight late...I doubt it. I tell everyone I am not willing to die for what I have in my wallet, my car or my house, it ain't worth it. We get decent people shot all the time around here, they have a bad day and then they bump into some idiot with an attitude and a gun and bingo some family is going to be with out a father or husband.
If the gun wasn't there you go home with a bloody nose and a couple of bruises.
In all by years I had one friend who ended up in a bad neighborhood as a result of a flooded expressway, some gang member walked up and emptied a 22 into his car with his wife and 3 kids, he did the right thing punched the accelerator and got out of dodge. If he had a gun would he have gotten into a shootout I don't know but he chose the right action. I pick and chose where I go, would someone target me perhaps, but like Michael Jordans father he parked in the wrong place with an expensive car and some predator was looking for an easy meal. Even if he had a gun I think the results would have been the same.
We live in a very secure country, you don't have to keep one eye open and you can thank our military and horrible police who are out there protecting you from the bad guys.

I too was a LE (34 years). From having been involved in many,many,many investigations of homicides and assualts throughout my career and
my knowledge of assualts on LE's and shooting of same I will tell you that I would NEVER trust my fate or the fate of my loved ones to the mercy of an armed assilant. It is always best to be prepared, train regularly with what you carry and run mental scenarieos to be prepared for whatever comes your way. That said, also have knowledge of the laws and
act within them. When you are involvolved in a sooting, even if you are 100% right, coperate fully with the police AFTER you speak to an attorney. If you do all this you should be in good shape for the legal ramifications which certainly will follow, but you will be alive and there is much to be said about that.

quote:

We live in a very secure country, you don't have to keep one eye open and you can thank our military and horrible police who are out there protecting you from the bad guys.

Really?

raamw, Here's something from your hometown:
Great Job you are doing there raamw.

http://www.chicagonow.com/chic...ce-as-violent-as-la/

However, among the nation's 10 largest cities, each with a population of one million or more, only Philadelphia had higher rates of murder and violent crime than Chicago. Furthermore, the FBI's violent crime total for Chicago did not include any of the city's 1,443 incidents of criminal sexual assault, which is a broader classification than the FBI's forcible rape category. Including just 700 of those crimes would bump Chicago to 24th on the list for violent crime rate.

Chicago has a west and south side that is enter at your own risk, police cars are targets. Police are afraid to do there jobs since everyone is on the liberal band wagon of you can't pull someone over because of their race or suspicion. Cops are being sued left and right because they sare doing there jobs.

Look at the airline, you can't restrict your attention to middle eastern young males and females, you must harass everyone although all the terrorist fit that profile, give me break, like Archy Bunker said,, give a gun to all airline passengers and it will be the end of high jackings,

When I was working I had a law firm on retainer to represent me in the case of whatever. What he suggested in the case of a shooting is to ask to go to the hospital get in touch with him and not say a word to the authorities, I used to joke around with my partner that in the event I shot someone to make sure I didn't try and gut them.

Raamw, here are those statisics you failed to find:

http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html

One excerpt:
On the other hand, the scientific reasons are likely to be familiar only to the relatively small community of scholars who study the consequences of victim self-protection: the defensive actions of crime victims have significant effects on the outcomes of crimes, and the effects of armed resistance differ from those of unarmed resistance. Previous research has consistently indicated that victims who resist with a gun or other weapon are less likely than other victims to lose their property in robberies[3] and in burglaries.[4] .Consistently, research also has indicated that victims who resist by using guns or other weapons are less likely to be injured compared to victims who do not resist or to those who resist without weapons. This is true whether the research relied on victim surveys or on police records, and whether the data analysis consisted of simple cross-tabulations or more complex multivariate analyses. These findings have been obtained with respect to robberies[5] and to assaults.[6] Cook[7] offers his unsupported personal opinion concerning robbery victims that resisting with a gun is only prudent if the robber does not have a gun. The primary data source on which Cook relies flatly contradicts this opinion. National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) data indicate that even in the very disadvantageous situation where the robber has a gun, victims who resist with guns are still substantially less likely to be injured than those who resist in other ways, and even slightly less likely to be hurt than those who do not resist at all.[8] National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) data indicate that even in the very disadvantageous situation where the robber has a gun, victims who resist with guns are still substantially less likely to be injured than those who resist in other ways, and even slightly less likely to be hurt than those who do not resist at all.[8]

There are 102 footnotes at the bottom demonstrating the value of armed resistance to an attack. Please fee free to dispute all 102 references

You got the stand and die atitude, a handgun is a weapon of last resort, by the time you think your going to need it it probably to late, better choice start running and screaming, moving target are hard to hit. We had an agent who was armed and got stuck up and marched into an alley at gun point, they pulled his credentials out of his pocket thinking it was his wallet, he told them he was a security guard hoping they wouldn't look for his 9mm, while they where gong through his ID he started walking backwards and when he got about 15 feet he took off at an angle to a dumpster. several shots where fired at him but they took off. He could had a stand and die and lets see whole is gonna be lucky but he did what I would do and he lived to talk about it
CC is a good thing if something goes down in front of you where you can take some action but be resolved nobody is gonna pay your legal fees and trust me the only one that makes out in court are the attornies

If someone is going to shoot you the perp has all the advantages. If you wanted to kill someone just walk up to them and shoot them before they have a chance to react. So what?

To go armed doesn't mean someone can't kill you.

It sure as hell ain't going to hurt to go armed.

And afraid to go to coontown, eh? So what is your job description?

Having been LEO, one departments main friearms instructors and having studied self defense shootings for over 33 years.

One stands a much better chance of fighting back then bending over and kissing your ass good bye.

One can worry about law suits ect and not carry and then if you are attacked your love ones can worry about burying you.

Sept 11 2001 killed the myth that one should do what the bad guys wants.

I plan on fighting back and wining.

Gang members and bad people can only get firearms by taking them from other people either from there person or homes or off the street where they are obtained the same way. Most decent people are not ready to deal with a bad individual timely, it is not a tough decision to return fire but what could you have done to prevent the exchange. I arrested a gang member who was carrying a glock, he said he had 19 buddies in it and he bought it loaded and didn't know how to reload it, he told me didn't matter what I had as long as he got off first....think about that, just like these suicide bombers how can you deal with them! Police have the most valuable 2 words available to them "PROBABLE CAUSE" (PC), individual do not. PC protects the LE from mistakes made provided he has PC. If an individual and a cop makes the same mistake, the cop can't be sued, point anyone can make an arrest, if the wrong person is arrested the police can't be held liable as long as he can show PC, individual would be subject to false arrest. If you get into a confrontation with someone, what are you gonna do with him, let him go? how are you gonna restrain them?, transport the and to where?, the terrible PD?, I know just cap em and drive them around till their dead then bring em to the emergency room and drop em off.

One of the greatest saying and it has some truth is I would rather get judged by 12 then carried by 8

quote:

by the time you think your going to need it it probably to late,

Please provide me your statistics the support your theory that just because a citizen decided to carry concealed they loose all common sence, situational awarness, and the ability to consider any tactic other then assuming the weaver stand and shooting it out with the bad guy.

Why do you always assume a scenerio where the gun is pointed at the CCW holder? Maybe the gun is pointed at YOU, not him? Bad guy walks into a Lubies Cafe, or a Virginia Class room, he can't be pointing the gun at everyone at once. Would you like your odds better if you were armed, or unarmed?

Of course as Liberal Federal Agent (ATF I'm guessing, since Lemont is within 10 minutes of the Downers Grove office) you seek to only present the scenerio's that least favor the CCW holder in your attempts to discredit the practice all together.

Personally I believe this following quote demonstates the phenominal level of contempt you have for your fellow members of the shooting sports:

What I am stating is you can't walk around pointing a gun at everyone that looks suspicious

This couples nicely with you assumption that CCW holders would only practice the minimum amount required by law. Since most big city cops don't like guns, and only shoot the minimum required, it's not suprising you would assume ccw are no better then the "Only ones".

In reality raamw, you are the one with the attitude that civilians should just stand there and die.

you don't have to keep one eye open and you can thank our ... police who are out there protecting you from the bad guys.

You are the one saying I shouldn't even maintain situational awareness, let alone provide myself with additional options for resistance, but should instead just scream like a little girl and hope you come save me.

So just to paraphrase you position, you are not against CCW, but you think CCW holder would never practice more then required to my law, they would go around pointing their guns at anyone that looks suspecious, that bad guys can identify concealedCW holders just as easy as a cop in uniform, and the the only reason the guy in your dumpster story was able to think rationally was because he had a rent a cop badge?

WOW a guess I better so get myself one of those magical badges. Because without a badge, there is no way a person can possible think clearly in a crisis.

PS. That was another nice liberal story. When are you going to come up with some statistics to dispute the 102 footnoted references in the study I provided?

How many times did you need a gun to get out of a situation? I worked in lE for 24 years in plain clothes in unmarked cars and the majority of time in the worst areas of my city and once a group of 6 gang members attempted to hijack a car I was in, fortunately the driver caught them sneaking up along side us, yes we could have jumped out and pulled out guns but we where out numbered and probably out gunned, could have been real heroes if he capped the whole bunch, but you need to pick your fights wisely and to retreat will give us another time to fight. I was never in a shootout, I had members of my squad shot and I have learned to keep an eye to the rear at all times.
I hope that people that think strapping on a gun will solve all the world problems, In my job guns and cars got more people in trouble than anything else, we have had people sued for use of force, pointing guns at people, for excessive use of force, and a host of other things which all where eventually thrown out but it took months to clear them up and the attorney fees where not my responsibility.
I f you pulled a gun on me for some BS reason I will file charges on you and we can play musical chairs in court for months and guess what my attorney fees are picked up by the county, whose gonna pay your fees, the NRA or CC org?? who is gonna make up for your loss wages? LE are somewhat restricted on what they do, mainly because they are trained in what they can and can't do, they also want to keep their jobs because who would hire a fired cop?
\It kinda scarce me to hear all the hot shots out there that want to have CC weapon, I am not directing at you just in general. Just know the liability, practice to the point that you are the best you can be and it may help you out of a situation or deal with consequences of a a not so favorable results

quote:

I f you pulled a gun on me for some BS reason I will file charges on you

There you go again. Oh, a citizen with a gun, he must be an idiot, lets arrest them all! What else should we expect from a Chicago ATF agent.

What level have you achieved in life, if someone pointed a gun at you wouldn't you file charges or just bore them to death with your BS or would you use deadly force in a non deadly force situation?? And I didn't work for ATF, I see they need more manpower out in colorado

stick your probable cause up your ass, dont know if your a cop or not, but your an asshole

Another intelligent response, keep it civil I can stoop to your level but what would that accomplish. Try to open up an intelligent debate and what does it turn in. Seems Wysoke is a tough guy on the internet, wonder if he be man enough to use language like that to someones face like mine.

raamw you make a number of mistaken assumptions. Firstly, I sought instruction in driving in self defense situations from the same people that teach me how to shoot. I would not stop a moving car to have a shootout, I will drive away, despite the two guns that are my constant companions in the car.

Secondly, I don't have to have a gunfight with everyone who offers one. I've turned down several so far and everything worked out for me.

Thirdly, you assume that because I have a Concealed Pistol License and not a badge that I will have no training on weapon retention or shooting, etc. I probably have more training in the last five years than you do. Well, in the last six hours I have more than 200 hours of firearms and use of force instruction that includes certificates. Not to mention informal, unaccredited training from friends and associates (cops and one guy who subsequently became an assistant instructor for Clint Smith). Not to toot my own horn, but I wanted to destroy an assumption you made.

Finally, simply because someone already has a gun out doesn't mean they can't be shot. A fast draw and good shooting and they may not have time to react. It happens to policemen all the time.

There's no point in talking to the troll. And, its highly unlikely that he's actually a LEO - maybe in Chicago, but I don't think I've ever encountered a rank-and-file cop in the South or West who doesn't believe in armed self-defense.

(Run away, only a few bruises if there's no gun? You can't be a cop - otherwise, you would have seen what happens when a mob attacks someone/a grown man assaults someone, and would realize that quite a bit of the population is incapable of outrunning the local MS-13.)

If you actually are a cop, which seems hard to believe - a MAJOR difference is that civilians do not have to go into bad situations, do not have to arrest/catch anyone, and don't have any doubt about a situation. Cops respond based on information they have from dispatch - the civilian knows if someone is trying to smash his way into his house/threatened his life w. a knife, etc.

Some valid points there, most rage confrontations are one on one, rarely does a single individual jump out to deal with a group of agitators, that would be a death wish.

I f you have had that much training than you are one of the few, as far as more than I, now you would be correct, while I was on the job not even close.

I prove nothing by claiming to be something that I am not, I have nothing to prove just attempting to turn on a couple of lights so things are clear. There are some people with the proper dispositions that will not be a threat to carry a CC. It is out given right to be safe in our house and person however the laws are made for the majority and when the powers to be place the public safety over the individual it should be clear as to the outcome.

Will Illinois ever get a CC, maybe but I don't believe it will be soon. Secondly the law allows you to carry an unloaded cased gun, the semi pistol can be carried with the slide back with a loaded mag in the case as long as it is not in the frame, doesn't take that long to but it in battery.

I belong to a fairly large gun club with somewhere near 1500 members and what I see that scares me are these young and dumb who are biting at the bit to CC, I don't understand their thinking, are they gonna be self appointed private police? If they are in such a bad area that they need it to survive instead of arming themselves to the hilt, why not take the money and move to a safer area. Or is it they want to be fighters, simple join the military and they can fight and shoot all they want.

Police are constantly picked on if they are to aggressive, or pulled their weapons to soon, what recourse will there be against some guy with an attitude and CC, court. It will be a privilege to get CC but when it gets to be a public threat guess what the politicians will do.

quote:

Gang members and bad people can only get firearms by taking them from other people either from there person or homes

This is a classic Sara Brady argument to disarm all citizens. I see that your true colors are beginning to show.

quote:

Most decent people are not ready to deal with a bad individual timely,

We are not discussing "most people". We are discussing the 1-3% of civilians carry concealed on a regular basis. HOW MANY CCW HOLDERS DO YOU PERSONALLY KNOW. Considering you live in the only state where all CCW is illegal, I'd guess that number is pretty close to ZERO. I find it pretty ironic that you claim to know about us when its unlikley you've ever met one outside an internet forum.

quote:

I arrested a gang member who was carrying a glock, ... he bought it loaded and didn't know how to reload it,

I want you to ponder that for a moment. He....can't... load...it. That means he's never fired it, or practiced with it. He's never so much as dry fired it to learn a proper trigger pull..... He would be lucky if he could find the sights....And some how this is part of your argument that the badguys are so invincible I should not carry?

quote:

If you get into a confrontation with someone, what are you gonna do with him, let him go? how are you gonna restrain them?, transport the and to where?,

This is what's know as a "straw man" argument. In a confrontation, my responsibility is to safely extricate my family from the situation. A firearm is just one tool that provides addition options to accomplish this goal. What am I going to do with him? If at all possible, NOTHING. Hunt down, restrain, and transport, THAT'S YOUR JOB. Once my familys safe, I"ll give you a call so you can GO EARN THOSE TAX DOLLARS YOU ARE LIVING ON.

quote:

I know just cap em and drive them around till their dead

WHAT, you think that just because someone has a CCW, they are going to be a COLD BLOODED MURDER?? Please do now confuse us CCW holders with your Gang Banger that can't even load his Glock. If that's what you think, you need to get out more and meet some real CCW holders.

quote:

One of the greatest saying and it has some truth is I would rather get judged by 12 then carried by 8

If you truely believed this, you wouldn't be asking the question why civilians carry. But next time, get the quote corret, it's caried by 6, not 8.

quote:

How many times did you need a gun to get out of a situation?

It only takes one. See above quote about judged vs carried.

quote:

What level have you achieved in life, if someone pointed a gun at you wouldn't you file charges or just bore them to death with your BS or would you use deadly force in a non deadly force situation??

So, a person has to achieve some level in life before the Second Amendment applies to them? Do you feel that way about the WHOLE CONSTITUTION, or just the Second Amendment? As a Federal Agent, didn't you take an oath to uphold and protect the Constitutuion, or does that only apply to those of us who served in the Armed Forces?

quote:

And I didn't work for ATF, I see they need more manpower out in colorado

This is one of your more interesting statement. First Colorado is a SHALL ISSUE state. In other words, in this state, LE MUST ISSUE carry permits to law abiding citizen. That makes CCW in Colorado LEGAL. So, why do think that people are acting in a lawful manner, should require more Law Enforcement? Where's your Federal Nexus? Are you really trying to say, that because I exercise my First Amendment rights to disagree with your assertions that CCW holders are irresponible, and go around pointing their guns at people, you feel I should be arrested?

So far what we've established is that you don't believe in the First Amendment, or the Second Amendment, and that Police should not be held responsible when they violate a persons Constitutional Rights. Perhaps you did not work for the ATF. Your jackbooted thug mentality seems more appropriate for the Seguridad del Estado, the Cuban Secret Police.

quote:

It will be a privilege to get CC but when it gets to be a public threat guess what the politicians will do.

49 states have some form of Concealed Carry. There are 37 shall issue states, and 4 Constitutional Carry states, and it hasn't become a public threat.

Please quit listening to Sara Brady, Rahm Emanuel, and Michael Bloomberg on their "Blood in the Streets" theory. They've been wrong 41 times, and if CCW comes to your state, once again, they will be one wrong.

I suggest you go sit through a Flordia or Utah CCW course. These permits are accepted across a large portion of the nation, so you should be able to find one in a neighboring state. It will give you a chance to see how much of the class actually deals with the legalities, and give you a feel for the type and character of person who will actually pay the money, and sit through a course, as opposed to someone at the range talking about how "cool" CCW would be.

chThis is getting interesting so I will address what I can,

If our laws are working properly only law abiding citizens are able to own guns, so why is there no shortage of guns that Bad people get
a)Crooked gun dealers (ATF's job to keep them straight, but everyone hates them for doing their job. If ATF is disbanned then guess what the FBI will take it over and trust me you do not want them doing that)
By burgulary for those who don't properly secure them.
Very few burglars, will deal with a dog in the house, even when your not home by far the best early warning system. Like I tell everyone there is nothing that I own or in my house worth dying for.
B Unless you have dealt with a really bad person you have no idea of what they are capable of, big mouths who threaten arer not that big of a threat, the ones that send no signals and just do it or some drug crazed individual who is on a binge looking for the money for his next fix, average person doesn't have a clue what these people are capable of, and to defend yourself from one of them you have to equal or surpass their level, just like people who train for combant they will never know what its like till it happens

I grew up in a nice neighbood in Chicago, I had a neighbor kid a year or two older than I, mean as as a mad dog His name was Rick Obrien), he eventually became a Chgo Cop and just after I started this guy was on a tactical gang intervention team on the south side, Tact teams where staffed by aggressive cops meant to deal with the worst of the worst, well one day he and his partner (fahey) puled a car over with two gang members, rich grabbed one guy and Fahey was removing the other guy. It appears that Fahey along with his service revolver was carrying another pistol in a shoulder rig. The gang guy whether he practiced to do it or street knowledge made Fahey grab him allowing him to pull the pistol out of the shoulder rig, Fahey was shot in the head , a fairly violent gun fight ensued over the car with Obrien but Rich was armed with a revolver , a revolver that his late father carried while he was a cop and Rick was also killed. THe bad guys the urinated on them while they laid dying. If some guy can take on two armed trained and aggressive tac cops what chance do you think your gonna have, people like this are violent and act without any remorse, If Rich would have got on his horse he would probably be alive today but he chose to shoot it out, that is a crap shoot with uncertain results.http://www.odmp.org/officer/4708-patrolman-william-p-fahey
\
c The gang guy with a glock can't train, where would he practice, at the time there where no gun shops in Chicago, at suburb shops you need to produce a Firearms Identification Card FOID, he could get one legally if he tried, they can't buy ammo unless they steal from someone else or buy it on the street, so to make up for that they do walk ups, meaning they walk up and shoot you point blank. They rarely hit their targets unless they are right in front of them but they sure do hit alot of innocent people especially when they empty 19 rounds at someone.

d I am 63 years old and as I said earlier I was the target of a carjacking, but if I wasn't working I wouldn't have been there so this is a non issue in my books. Plus I live in a fairly violent city and of all of my friends and acquaintances only one guy had a walk up incident where someone fired several 22's into his car, that was a fluke since an expressway was flooded during heavy rain and he was diverted onto a parallel street, this has never happened before or again, and in heavy rain some idiot chooses my friends car for no other reason than he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, the only person hit was my friend who got hit in his wrist. The guy walked up to the passenger door and opened fire, what saved his family he was so startled by the gun shot that he foot slid off the brake and onto the accelerator.

If you disarm someone you gotta do something, again it is alot easier today with cell phones but you got finish what you started. although getting on your horse and out of dodge is a good choice but the problem I have is you throw it on the Police, the people you are so quick to criticize. You guys gotta show respect to police and firemen how many people can you pick up a phone and count on them to show up at the worst of time every-time, what if you called them and they know what an XXXX you are and they make the wrong turn and show up late?

You gotta be a moron to let someone point a deadly weapon at you or your wife or kid and not do something about it, like filing a police complaint, if I baked into your car what would you do, dent mine or file a damage complaint, get real

Rahm, you accuse our nations gun dealers of being crooked and supplying guns to criminals, and how great the ATF is, but you forget to mention how the ATF was supplying guns not only to the Mexican Cartels, but also to Chicago area Gangs.

http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2...nt-to-chicago-gangs/

You should be thankful that these ATF supplied guns have only killed two Federal Agents in the Southern United States and over 200 Mexican national, but no agents in the Chicago area. Great way to "Protect and Serve". I suggest you weigh this against your statement that people HAVE TO respect the police. Respect is earned, and attempting to create a crisis in order to abridge the right of the people is not a good way to earn their respect. There is some good law enforcement officers in this country. There are also some that are very mediocre.

Pepperspraying an 8 year old....Really??
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...-peppe_n_844925.html
The same department had another incident where they Tases an 8 year old. They really need some new cops.

I'm sorry for the loss of your friend. Unfortinatly I must ask; why would he knowing go into harms way with his gun in a shoulder rig with the butt facing the bad guy? I don't carry in a shoulder rig (no I won't tell you how I do carry, other then to say concealed) But again, you are comparing apples to hambugers. As a CCW holder, I don't have a shiny shield on my chest that says to the bad guys "I'm here to take you away for life." I don't have red an blue lights on the top of my car, so I'm not seekiing out trouble, pulling guys over and creating confrontations. As a CCW holder I have NOT taken an oath to arrest the above bad guy, so that means my FIRST option is to get on my horse and ride out of there. As tragic as your example might be, IT'S totally invalid for this discussion. In addition, it's another example of a Nirvana Fallacy. Since it appears you skipped Logic class, let me help you out with a reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy

Consider how you probably worked with a department that tolerated toruture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Burge

and abuse:
http://news.medill.northwester...go/news.aspx?id=6125

and could claim qualified imunity when ever you pointed your gun at someone, I can appreciate how you are having difficulty adjusting your headspace in your transition to civilian life. In order to help you out, let me expalin to you some of the differences in mind set between being a cop, and an armed civilian. A frined of mine works for a Federal Law Enforcement Agency. His goal in life is to break down any many doors, and arrest as many people as possible. Since he's never lost his perspective on the difference between the true bad guys, and Joe Citizen, I'm happy to have him do it. In practical terms, this means his life's work it to point his gun at as many people as possible. As an armed citizen, your goal is exactly the opposite. The goal is to never draw, never fire, never even have to reveal you are carrying. Where you are good cops are hunting down bad guys, breaking down their doors, taking their stuff, and putting them in little rooms, your new goal is to stay away from them. Since most shooting are bad guys shooting at bad guys, it's best to keep our distance. As an example, when my my former next door neighbor revealed that he had been convicted for transporting 2 kilo's of cocaine across state lines I made the decision that we would not be buddies, we would not be friends, nor was he coming in my house. Where you used to seek out felons, you must now avoid them.

One of the advantage of just being CCW holder vs a cop is you don't have that big "shoot me first" sign on your chest (called the majic badge). By maintaining your anonymity, and your situational awarness it provides you with an opportunity to recognize trouble, before trouble recognizes you. If you do recongize it, your goal are now different. Where once upon a time it was your duty to confront it, it's now your responsibility to avoid and diffuse. Something doesn't look right? Get the hell out of there. Call the guys with qualified immunity. Let them deal with it. That's why we pay taxes. This may not always be practical, your next course is deescalation. As a cop you were taught "Properly Force Escalation:. As a civilian you want to DEescalate. Bring things down so you don't have a confrontation. Deescalation techniques are commonly taught in management classes. You can probably find on at your local community college. (You also might find some classes in Logic, or Constitutional Law while you are at it).

As a Federal Agent, you probably delt with some of the worst-of-the-worst, that society had to offer. As a CCW holder, your typical unpleasant encounter will not be with someone so bad that you need AH-64 gunships on standby. If it is, then you are doing it wrong! Since you are not associating with felons, not flaunting cash or jewelery, and not going to the south side at midnight, and not wearing a "I'm here to take you away.", sign, it much more likely your encounter will be with a medium, not a high level threat. As you mentioned earlier, bad guys choose their victims carefully. Interviews show they typically choose victims that appear weak and look like easy prey. When a medium badguys see's the confident manner of a 24 year police veteran with a top of the line concealed carry weapon, do you think he's going to choose you, and your family as his next mark, or someone else? I understand that as a former office you want to do what you preceive as the right thing, and see to it that he goes where he belongs. Unfortinalty, the cops are no longer your friend, and any attempt to do so will result with you were you do not belong. Unless you have something more specific the "I've been a cop for 24 years and know a bad guy when I see one" (which you probably do), you need to let him go. Will he go out and pick another victim. Maybe. But that's no longer your job. You've done your duty to society, now your duty is to your Grandkids!

If if take just one lesson away I would hope it to be this:

Badge = Offensive force. This means you get to hunt down bad guys and put them in little boxes.

CCW = Defensive force. This means you can defend your family and self, but need to let the guys with badges do the hunting, and putting bad guys in little boxes. Just remember, if you ever have to call the guys with badges, they are no longer your friends. The Supreme Court says they can lie to you, they are always looking to put someone, anyone, in jail, and a good percentage of them have spent so much times dealing with the dregs of society that they have lost all prospective on the difference between the good guys, the bad guys, and the meaning of Protect and Serve.

I know it get cold in Colorado but you gotta get better head protection

raamw- The average citizen has a little more sense than you give them credit for.
I am a CCW permit holder and carry daily. Just because I am armed does not mean that I have forgotten that my best defense is to pay attention to what is going on around me and to stay out of places I don't belong.

What I have said all along you don't go to a gun fight with a handgun, a handgun is a last resort weapon nothing more nothing less. It not considered an offensive weapon it does a pure job of stopping someone from doing what caused you top shoot and many people are killed even though they hit their target first. The miami shooting that the FBI got into some years ago wherein they encountered the two bank robbers who where armed and dangerous since they did use them in other bank robberies. There is no doubt in my mind that the FBI used the excuse of staking out a bank in hopes that these guys would show up, it was a friday afternoon on a nice day, obvious it was a day out of the office. They knew these fellows where armed to the hilt, assault weapons, and only one of several guys had a shotgun which I don't think was deployed till after the shooting started. Some had 5 shot 36's and the other either 6 shot and the swat guys had 9mm. Long story short an FBI swat guy got the first shot off as the passenger jumped out with the assault rifle, at 50 yards he hit him with a soon to be fatal in the arm pit diagonally through the chest a2 lunger if Iam not mistaken, but this guy continue to shoot up the whole group of FBI guy even after a shotgun blast to legs from under a car, the other perc never fired a shot.
Take it for what it is worth research it yourself but what I am saying most stick up artist want your money your jewelery or your car, stuff I am not willing to get into a crap shoot for.
Most criminal aren't that great of a shot some are but they also have no remorse and they can get lucky. I had a 357 supervel accidentally discharge toward me a number of years from approx 15 feet in a quick draw demonstration, the old empty the cylinder without counting the bullets or checking the cylinder and what I experienced was the eyesight and hearing was gone from the blast, the concussion put me int0 the shakes and it look quite a few seconds before my eyesight to come back and when I did I expected the other guy to be laughing since I seriously thought he put a blank in the gun, when I saw his eyes searching for the hole in the wall I didn't really comprehend what happened. What I am saying getting off the first shot will buy you time but I still recommend getting on your horse as range or movement will decrease the chances of being hit, being hit increases your chances of a coup de gra since your probably the only one there and the only witness.
The right to carry in Illinois for LE limits the type of guns permitted so no models hand canons are allowed, out of couriousity what limits on the type are there in your state.


I did a google on the miami shooting here is a write up fairly accurate, draw your own conclusions, a lot of mistakes made but they depended on small calibers to do the job of heavy caliber, stand and die and although they should have been ready they bit off more than they could swallow even tho they would have had extensive felony arrest training to do this type of work and it didn't work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

quote:

you don't go to a gun fight with a handgun

Rahm, As a CCW holder, when I leave the house, I'm not "going to a gunfight". I"m going about my daily business. Please quit trying to paint the CCW holder as a blood thirsty vigilante who is just looking for a fight.

How many CCW holders were at the Miami Shoot out? ZERO.

Next you are going to bring up NorthHollywood and say that because that was such a police debacle that no one should be allowed to carry for personal defense. Gallipoli was pretty screwed up as well, but since I plan to charge any Turkish Maxim guns, it's about as relevant to this discussion as the 1986 Miami shootout.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign

If you didn't think you where going to need it you wouldn't be carrying it so yes you anticipate the need for it than what is it?m
Do you wear it in the shower, taking the garbage out? Cops are required to have it on them 24/7, partly because they always have their life at risk and the majority will get involved in situations they may stumble into.
The only point I have attempted to make is sometimes the fact that you have a cc may make you stand when you should be running, it is called the art of survival, most criminal won't chase a person who is screaming and running since that attracts unwanted attention, shooting will make people duck and hide therefore no one sees nothing just noise.

If you get the chance to shoot a running man target I highly recommend it, if you don't have access a good substitute if you have access to the right terrain is get a couple of unmounted tires staple some cardboard to it and find a gradual sloping hill, get someone from a safe position roll it down hill at various angles and see how good of a defense that is.

Rolling rocks down the hill and shooting at them?
I've been doing that with my cousin since I was 12.

Your running man course sounds like a lot of fun.
How many antelope has you killed on a full run?

None but I have killed quite a few deer but only with rifle or shotgun, Try a handgun totally different especially after a 5o yard run to get the heart and breathe rate up. very few guys can hit a target unless they practice practice and more practice, most criminal don't practice so Confucius say take advantage of your opponent weaknesses and you can fight another day

When I was in the training academy we had a self defense instructor who trained inthe middle east for marshal arts, he would ask, "Why don't chinese tea cups have handles?, his reply was "Tea to hot to handle Tea to hot to drink"! what he meant was don't get into a situation that you don't have a reasonable expectation of winning. Whenever we would get overwhelmed in a self defense procedure, he'd look at you and say, tea to hot, eh!

raamw,
You say that I carry because I EXPECT something to happen. If this is the case then I carry auto insuarance because I THINK I may have an accident and I carry home owners insuarance because I THINK my house is going to burn down and I carry health insuarance because I THINK I will be sick. Somehow I have been wrong all these years. I rarely ever walk out in the rain with no protection from it and I usually wear a warm coat when it is cold and I don't walk of rough stones in my bare feet. To me these are matters of common prudence which you seem to be bereft of.

raamw,

People may argue statistics all day--
when it comes to your life--it is yours.

Life is about choices--
Everyone gets to make their own choices--

Mine life is mine, I choose to carry --
and shoot if threatened--
and have.

I've carried since being shot as a teen (steel strike)-
made myself a promise then to never again be at a disadvantage--with respect to being armed.

As to drawing on someone with a drawn gun-- the answer is yes--and have--foolishly you may say--
still--
my choice not yours.

I may die fighting--then again I may live --

and have--

What I will not do is--
die submissive and unarmed.

My life--my call.

Your life --your call.

I truly see it that simply--you may not.