G'Day
Has anybody ever hunted in Indo ? I would like to hear any stories - good or bad !I am working hard to open up some hunting up there with all legal bells&whistles attached.All will be fully guided with assistance of cooks, skinners, drivers, trackers - like in Africa. There is a game reserve set up for local hunters on one of the islands. Moder hunting rifles for hire on site, otherwise bows only. So far only bearded pigs on this reserve but there is an opportunity to hunt monster Nangoy pig in Sumatra - those fellows are white, hairless and sometimes reach 250 kg. Seen some photos of this critter - bloody amazing ! If anyone is interested in future hunts in Indo, give me a cooee on lesterra@ozemail.com.au

Cheers
Les from Sydney < !--color-->

Mick McCormick hunted in Indonesia for a year or so in the mid-90s. I think the logistics and the rifle problems were too much to deal with.

Not Indonesia, but when I lived in Malaysia firearms were very scarce, and anybody caught with even a round for one if they were unlicenced was in deep crap! I would say they would have similar gun laws. Did see a local hunter kill a monkey, with a shotgun, that was causing problems in our school.

I was once told by an outfitter of an offer for him to setup there. The whole kit and camboodle including endangered species such as cats, rhino etc. Needless to say he turned it down.

Shit Les,

I figured there was another bloke running around trying to develop Indonesia, but it turned out to be you!

Good to see you here.

Frans

Hi there,
Thanks for your input ! I know that Bob Penfold and later John Clarck of Coral Safaris and Johan from Sentosa Game Park from VIC all had tried hard ! However, it appears to me they all had in the past tried to establish their own outfit on a foreign soil, by trying to bring their own gear, guns and guides into the alien social environment, running their own Australian minded shop outside the local realities! What I am aiming here though, is to utilise local forces and local establishments (like PERBAKAN - Indonesian hunting association )to provide for their own set ups and services instead. I know they do already have it - guns, vehicles, concessions, guides, labour etc ! What I try to do now is to convince the local "SYSTEM" ( A devoted and enthusiastic members of Perbakan, Military, Customs, Immigration, Indo Wildlife Authorities, you name it !)to set up and run their own local safari shop and make an offer to us once it is all ready to go ! They are supposed to come back to me once they are able to produce the iron guarantees (on their official letterheads papers !) that all is nice and sweet ! I will wait until they sort it all out among themselves and later convince me without any doubt that there are no any nasty surprises on the border or else ! When I had some official talks with trade representatives in Indo Embassy in Camberra some months ago, I was told Indo Gov would be very much inclined to see my paper drafted on how to organise a Safari Industry in Indonesia. They would like to see it drafted along Australian standards (Which are not the ones I would advocate, because those are truly speaking non-existent - I would rather implement Namibian standards here if I can !)
They have admitted they had burned and logged all what was there to be burned and logged and since then they are now more inclined to look towards the other sources of other prospective revenues, given the fact they have some enormous wild game potential which can be intelligently harvested. Dutch Game Law had expired in late 50's and there is no new Game Laws in Indonesia. Those guys are now willing to listen to us how they can come onto the World scenes of Safari Industry. It speaks for arranging for a creation of a proper Safari Industry in Indo - such task will take months if not years to be completed ! However, it will be done by them and not by us - trying to bring our own gear and running the shop all by ourselves ! Local decidents, local forces and local labour will be doing it. this is not Africa, those guys are running their own shop and they want to run the shop by themselves, no other way around ! No more of Great White Hunters coming there any longer and telling them what to do - they themselves know what to do ! Fortunately, I have a patience here to deal with all of those antics of their Indo system components one by one - wildlife, military. customs, Perbakan, immigration. I am already making some headway on this front ! And I know first hand how their "System" would work - on much the same principles of starting and further conducting & expanding such business which would offer them a steady influx of foreign currency going straight to their own coffers as it was experienced in 60's, 70's and 80's in Eastern Europe hunting realms when those were still under the "System" rule !

The idea of my first post which was send a couple of days ago was to find out whether there is any interest among Oz and NZ hunters to go up north to Indo subcontinent to perhaps experience some adventurous hunting in tropical environment on a scale greater than it can be done in PNG or NC locations.

Indonesia is right on our doorsteps ! It is not too that devilishly far to travel there - In the past Poms had been expoliting hunting grounds in Eastern and Southern Africa, Frenchies were hunting in Equatorial Africa and in Indochina, Russian were working Central and Far East Asian hunting grounds in the past and now it is perhaps a right time for all of us from Oz and NZ to look more favourably towards those immense Indonesian hunting opportunities if we do it right !

Les from Oz < !--color-->

What location(s) are you trying to set-up? You mention Sumatra and "a game reserve set-up on one of the islands". I'd be interested in knowing the general locations and of course what species you're likely to hunt. That last one is a biggie as it's too far and expensive to get to to take a "pig" no matter how big or exotic. What other animals are even possible? Rusa?

Yes species are a key. Please tell.

Also will the prices be in US dollars?

I would not like to go to an area that has any "unrest" Call me chicken, but I don't trust the Indo's. Hmmm wonder why?

G'Day
This island game reserve is located on Sebesi Island, which is a tiny island between Java and Sumatra, near Krakatau. It is around 25 km sq area. Not any town to speak of there.
Local hunters get there by boat from Java.As for other location in Sumatra - I am still waiting for further details on that one. I am pretty well aware that Indo with its unrests etc is in a bad books with Aussiess, that's why I try to set it up in such way that people are personally met at the Jakarta airport and escorted all the way there and back and will make final payment for their safari back in Jakarta after all was performed to their satisfaction.
During the lastest SHOT show in Coffs some of our hunters whom I met there, expressed an interest in going to Sebesi for pigs only if it can't be for other game - as a side trip when they would go holidaying or surfing in Bali. PNG would be lot more dangerous than Indo I presume, especially Port Moresby.
At the moment the legal game in Indo are pigs and more pigs. I know there are deer - sambar, rusa, marsh deer and God knows what else !The whole point of my exercise here is to legalise hunts in Indo for other species. Sumatra is a huge island and apparently the biggest hunting grounds in Indo. I have also suggested to those Indo movers&shakers hunters to import Gayal from India or from China to Sebesi Island as an additional Big Bame Bovine. I agree that going there for pigs only is not a breathtaking proposition, but I have to start from somewhere. This Indo hunting option may be interesting for Europeans - on their way to Oz they may stop in Jakarta for few days hunting and then continue to Darwin. Darwin is a gateway for buffalo hunts as you know. Despite the glamorous name "Darwin International Airport", this airport is only "internationally " connected with Denpasar and Singapore I believe. It is only short hop from Denpasar to Darwin, otherwise foreign hunters must land themselves in Brissie or in a Big Smoke and fly back and forth to Darwin if they want a buffalo, which is always 2-4 days time waste.
As the things stay now, 4 full hunting days fully guided & serviced hunt for bearded pigs on Sebesi (Jakarta to Jakarta, add another 2 days to travel Jakarta - Sebesi and back)is priced at US 1900 for 1 hunter and 1700 for next hunter. I still need to grill locals what else can be legally hunted in Sumatra and how can we legalise hunting other than pigs game there. I am not talking here about elephants and tigers - however there could be a way to hunt man-killers or crop riders if it comes to that ! Then there are leopards (jet Asian variety)and apparently huge salties crocs. and perhaps some wild banteng and buffalo ? At Easter my Indonesian speaking partner will go there to suss out further possibilities of opening legal hunts for other than pigs only game. Indonesia is a signatory to CITES, therefore there is a light in the tunnel there ! It will be much the same job to legalise hunts for various Sumatra critters in Indo as legalising hunts for salties in Oz ! I am also hard at work on the latter issue talking to certain influential people in Darwin and Canberra. I will keep you guys posted on any further developments on those battle fronts ! As we all very well know, it is not a matter of common sense or conservation, this is purely a political matters - making a precedence of < !--color--> crocs hunting in Oz and legal hunts in Indo !

Les from Oz

Ahh $1900 US...why always US dollars? If I go to bali and want to buy things, I have to change my money over to Indo currency . If I buy something in Malaysia I pay for it in Ringet, but if I hunt I pay for the hunt in greenbacks!

I wouldn't piss on the Indos if they were on fire.
Thant's my 5 bucks worth.

Like it or not , the US Dollar is the currency of choice for every nation on earth , even the ones who "hate " the US.
At least you know in advance what your $1900 US will cost in local terms , and no-one is forcing you to go . Its optional , and thats the price . If you could go hunting in Afghanistan it would be in US Dollars for sure . Whats the hassle guys? ( aside from the military/political aspect )

What shits me is that if I were to holiday in Indonesia, then everything I buy or consume would be paid for in the local currency. How many guides in NZ charge in greenbacks?
If I were to go hunting in England I would be paying in pounds stirling not US dollars. Whats the point of countrys having their own currency if some people are going to use another countrys currency? And yep no ones forcing me to go and I like Yanks.....I really do I'm just venting my spleen. Now lets do some calcl.....calqla....lets work some stuff out.

$1900 US is....carry the one....divide .7....ahhhh subtract gross national product of New Zealand =

$2,531.15 Aussie
$2,901.00 NZ

Now no offence Les, but thats a lot of dollars to shoot a pig, an interesting ugly pig, but still a pig. I hope you get this thing off the ground, but the price excludes me and alot of other working class Aussies I think.

Faaaa-Aaaaaaaa-Rrrrrr-Kkkkk Mmmmm-Eeeee!

That's IDR16,353,299 Indonesian Rupiahs. Instant millionaire to be made for shooting a fucken pig.

All the local farmers would be jabbing bamboo splinters into their pigs arse just to make em wild!

Bakes - I dont agree with the US Dollar thing either , but its the way the system appears to operate , and as we all know , it is very difficult to change a system that has been in place for a long time .

I like visiting the US and appreciate that most of those hunting in exotic locations will be Americans .Catering to the majority users has to be logical for the operators , dont you think ?

I wont be paying 3000 of our miserable pesos to go shoot an interesting ugly pig in a tropical setting , the place would have to be way better than the small bit of South East Asia that I have seen, and we have enough pigs here to shoot for minimal expense , as do you guys .

I applaude Les for giving this a go , hopefully it will be a runner , but it will need more exotic species and more competetive costings before many of the average aussie and kiwi hunters will get there .Maybe the hunting world is becoming more of an elite place than we realise?

Oh guys calm down one of the main reasons it's in US is that the country currency and economic climate are unstable compared to the US $. It�s a business choice and a wise one at that, me I would never see go into INDO at all for political reasons A. they hate our guts B. They have no ability to control their armies and radical views of certain people of power thus this paves the way for overreaction and development of violence hence massive human rights violation.

Most countries have international rates. And they have local rates. South Africa does, even the USA does - have a look at the rules and regulations and licensing system - ie foreignors must hire a registered guide, different licence fees for residents (of the state), non-residents (of the state but resident in the USA) and foreignors.

If I see a price quoted in US$ in Australia or anywhere in the Asia/South Pacific I know it is going to be high.

If Indonesia is going to be marketed to Australians then prices in $A will have to be organised.

Gentlemen,
The US currency is a currency in which all hunts/safaris are quoted. Reason - majority of hunting clientele are Yanks. They are not able or not willing to covert their greenback into other currencies. US is an universal currency all around the World. When hunts etc are quoted in US it is always easy for anybody to compare the value, saving us scratching our heads over conversion tables. If you ask locals in Mongolia or Indo or Turkey to revert their prices to tugriks, rupiahs or else, they will happily do it !
When Indos say US dollars they mean "equivalent" to AUD or NZ Dollars. Ask them the price in tugriks or AUD and they happily revert it to your taste !

On the other hand we are here on a winning side whenever hunting prices are quoted in US. Some three years ago, when I was talking to a Namibian outfitter about pricing his safaris for us, I have tried to convince him to quote in AUD. He preferred to stick to US ! Lucky he did ! At the time AUD was 1/2 the value of a greenback ! Now AUD is 3/4 value of US ! If I would lock him into AUD prices at the time we would be on a loosing side by now ! Since he sticks to US we are now on a winning side. Just look at that - his safari priced in 2002 for say exemplary US 5000 would costs us at that time around AUD 9 - 10 000 ! Now it costs
us around AUD 6500 ? Have you got the drift here ? Let's stick to US prices, forget about our own ego for the moment ! Besides, if you are going to convert money to US or tugriks you always pay bank fees on convertion !
Tugriks, rupiahs, zlotys, rubels, pesos, Namib dollar. kwachas, ringitt, rands are all semi soft currencies now. You can pay for an ice cream or taxi or a little carvings etc trinkets on a Bali beach resort using local coins, but if you are purchasing something of a value, like a safari or an airfare you always pay in a hard currency, don't you ? Those enterpreneur characters who are ready to whip up a safari or a tour they want to be paid in hard currency which they can stash under their pillow ! If you are lodging a deposit for any of your African Safaris, SA, Namibia, Zambia, Tanzania - just look where they all want you to wire the deposit - always in the US based bank in US dollars. The balance is to be paid in any hard currency TC on site - not in Zambian or else dollars !
Surely they would later pay for their local contractor's services in the local money, but it is their business and that's how they do make money ! They are not doing it for the labour of love !
If you buy an airfare etc holiday in Bali here in Oz you always pay in AUD , not in Indo rupiahs ?
Imagine our AUD reaches the convertion levels to US like it was in 1982 ? You wouldn't whinge about prices quoted in US, now would you ?

Do not jump up and down yet, it is only the beginning with those Indo people, I am of the opinion that this US 1900 price for pig shooting has been drafted to cover the costs of the safari and it does not reflect trophy fees - in future any trophy fees for deer or else will be omitted, I hope ! Game animals,as yet, does not represent a monetary value to those people, what they are thinking of now is their costs of organizing labour, transport, accommodation and such, bugger the pigs or deer !

Now, if you contemplate going to Cape York for a decent pig shooting there, you will probably have to face the following costs: ( A very conservative budget this is )

Min 250 a day guiding fee on 1:2 or 1:3(Say 4 days = 1000)
Airfare Sydney to Cairns - say 500
Trip Cairns to the camp - say another 200 p/p
Grog, ammo etc sundry - say another 200 p/p
Trophy fees if any would be min 50 a pig (Shoot 10 = 500)
Taxis to airports, etc expenses = 100

Then we arrive to AUD 1500 - 2000. In most cases people have been spending some 3000 on the exercise. Now US 1900 = AUD 2500. Now you will have to add the costs of international airfare Australia Jakarta rtn but in the end of a day you are visiting a totally different hunting grounds and you would have a totally different hunting experience !

What I am basically saying here is the fact that US dollar is becoming a softer currency now versus AUD, our national ego aside, we should now take an advantage of the current situation ! So much for the US- AUD currencies exchange rate issue !

Cheers
Les from Oz < !--color-->

Good luck Les,it's going to be a hard sell with Aussie shooters.The Yanks might be where the moneys at,they seem to have plenty of it.

I am new to this thread but I can't get over all the complaints that "It's just a bloody pig". In our sport, gentleman, it seems to me that we are not paying for the animal but the experience. $2000 to hunt a very unique species (of any sort) under very unique conditions is CHEAP and I am not under any circumstances some "rich American". In my mind there is glamour game that everyone seems to be interested in and then there are species that are more specialized. Everyone has their own tastes I suppose but give me the specialized hunts in areas that have yet to be hunted by the majority. I think these hunts make for better memories and better stories ... not in spite of any logistical difficulties that might be encountered involving locals or gov't officials, but because of them.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

Bakes,



This is my poem to you this morning....



Dollars rule,

Everyone else just drools



I am not usually this creative so early in the morning.







Oh, and Les, if you do get this off the ground it may interest some of my clients. Sounds like a pretty cool adventure.

John , the one thing that probably differs between the US hunter and Australian hunters is that Australia has pigs in abundance , and most Aussie hunters can hunt as many pigs as they want at home . The cost factor is a major thing for most average guys , like yourself , and for those of us who dont deal in US dollars the exchange rate difference makes an expensive trip prohibitively expensive , especially when a pig is a pig is a pig . A rare pig is still just a pig when it all comes down to dollars .

There is also the political difficulties perceived by Australians and New Zealanders , caused by the recent "peacekeeping" duties of both NZ and Australia in East Timor . Indonesian backed militia and soldiers were responsible for the deaths of NZ and Aussie servicemen under circumstances that have not made Indonesians of any persuasion popular , hence the likes of Far Canels position on this whole situation .

I suspect few average Aussie or Kiwi hunters will be rushing to take up the rare pig hunt option. Having said that I do hope that Les is able to make this deal happen , good luck to him and good hunting to anyone who wishes to go there .

Ann
..........

G'Day Nitrox !
I am not a computer wizard, however I do have some photos of those bearded and Nangou pigs - if you can advise me your e-mail address on lesterra@ozemail.com.au I will send them to you !

Cheers
Les < !--color-->

Les

Email on the way. Will post it here when received.