One of the regular debates has been occurring on NitroExpress.com recently about "canned" NZ hunting. Or not?

When is an outfitters' hunt on private high fenced land a "hunt", and when is it just another "canned" shoot on a deer farm?

A discussion question.

Yip there is a lot of talk about this on N.Z forum too.
As i'm sure most people know we have public land in New Zealand and there are no seasons,no bag limits,no tags,no calibers limits and there are wild deer herds on private land/farms and there are game parks with paddocks less than an acre up to thousands of acres.
The chances of shooting deer over 12 ponits on public land are not good and shooting 20+ points in 4-5 hunt is just not going to happen.
I think it's up to the hunter/shooter if they are happy that should be all that matters.
Some of these guys are not in it for the hunt they just want the antlers.
Most of the guys that moan about game parks and outfitters are the same people that will never afford to hunt there.

Top_Predator

Thanks for the reply.

But some people who COULD afford a 'ranch' hunt aren't interested if it is not reasonably fair chase. I have hunted high-fenced properties and will hunt them again. But none of these tiny little blocks and not if the stag is raised in a deer farm and let out a month (a day? an hour?) before the "shoot".

I have actually avoided this topic for a year or two, but the recent thread named above made me re-consider.

Isn't the "open slather" attitude to anything goes affecting NZ's reputation as a hunting location?

I know I cringe when I see some of the stags shown as "hunted" even here on AR and wonder about the circumstances of the hunt. That would be shame if the hunt was actually conducted reasonably fair-chase.

What would make up a reasonably fair chase hunt in NZ?

Yes i know what you mean.You may remember the thread started late last year with photos of stags on deer farms i visted.
There are Sheep stations here 10,000+ acres with wild deer herds and the only fences will be 7 wire sheep fences.I think deer taken on a station like this are wild and a true hunt,but some do not.
This 14 was taken on a Sheep station on the east coast at Easter by a mate.shame about the two broken tines.

If it has ear tags or holes in it's ears stay clear of it.

It all comes down to the question of ethics. if some person is happy to shoot an animal in a pen then there will be someone out there who will supply the pen and the animal. Not for me , buts thats just my preference.
If the pen is 5000 acres of natural terrain and cover with a deer fence around it then it isnt quite the same .You have to find the animal first , so hunting becomes part of the deal.

New Zealand isnt the only place in the world were this happens , african buffalo are found on "farms " and hunted , lions are farmraised for trophy hunters , you name the species and somewhere they will be farmed for trophy harvest . Texas seems to have a lot of african plains animals on offer too....

I personally have difficulty with helicopter trophy hunting . Shooting an animal from a helicopter doesnt seem to be "hunting" to me at , but if the market demands it there will be those who supply it . I have no wish to ban the practice , but it isnt for me ( not whilst I am fit enough to climb mountains , maybe when I get old and doddery???)

To Johns question as to what is "fair chase "? I think it is where you the hunter have to actively locate , stalk and shoot the animal in its reasonable home environment. If that home environment is enclosed by a fence , but the area is big enough for the animal to have an unimpeded home range and live an otherwise "normal" life then I would consider that to be fair chase material . A 5 acre fenced pen isnt fair chase unless you are hunting rabbits.....

I am sorry, friends in NZ, welcome to Texas where the deer are cultivated and the women may not be......

My take is that it's probably fair game if:
1. The area enclosed well and truely exceeds the animals natural range.
2. or animals can easily clear any fence.
3. The animal is living in a wild state and was not released just prior.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I am sorry, friends in NZ, welcome to Texas where the deer are cultivated and the women may not be......

Spoken like a true Okie!

The question was, "when is it hunting and when is it shooting?"
It is hunting if the animal has it's natural fear of man, is eating food growing in nature (not planted or from a feeder), and when it has ample opportunity to escape, IMO.

quote:

Most of the guys that moan about game parks and outfitters are the same people that will never afford to hunt there.

Hey i wouldnt give two knobs of goat shit for a ranch hunt where the deer CANT get out of the fencing..please dont include me with that lot above Top-Pred as i certainly am a "anti pen moaner" haha.
It amazes me to see that people shoot sambar in the big pen in SA when they have all they want to hunt for free outside the pen,but that may be it as they want to "shoot" not hunt and shoot and while thats on offer there will always be those that will take that option,some of the pens are just for that and its almost criminal to see the real big stags kept in "special runs" where they cant fight and break antlers and do other damage to themselves...unreal ,isnt it when they run the stag through the drop floor crush then measure his SCI score and let him out into the "special pen" or is it like the casino with the "high rollers" room for the fella with the fat wallet and no conscience.

Look up the big NZ places and see what they have on offer,i have seen video of some hunts and i wonder why the hunters wear cam for gods sake (pics?) one must look the part i`m sure.

Every stag shot in N.Z on a game park means one stag that has not been shot on public land.
The way government here are going the only game there will be is that on game parks.

quote:

Posted 24 May 2006 11:16
Every stag shot in N.Z on a game park means one stag that has not been shot on public land.

unless they are still live capturing them,om you know if it is so?
I believe they are catching that for the pens or so i have heard.

I don't think there would be many deer being caught these days as there are better bloodlines on deer farms.
Yes Tahr and and Chamois are still being caught for game parks.
Gryphon i have seen some of the deer you have shot free range,i don't understand why you care if guys shoot deer in pens??? Just leave them to it.
From your post on fishnhunt are you planning to come over here??

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:
It amazes me to see that people shoot sambar in the big pen in SA when they have all they want to hunt for free outside the pen ...

I agree with Gryphon on "shooting" sambar at Watervalley, no way am I interested other than with a camera. Completely different terrain and countryside and they are much more tame at WV.

But fallow, chital etc, some of the free-range fallow herds range on a properties maybe 30,000 acres combined in total. Maybe you only hae access to 5,000 of those acres. If you hunt them behind wire on 50,000+ acres what is the difference ????

Much as it pains me to say it , I have to agree with muzza on this one. To me (JMHO), if the deer can jump over the fence and you actually have to look for them, on foot or still hunting over a wallow or similar, then that's hunting.
If you want to do otherwise, and it's legal, then go for it. It's just not what I would want to do.

Shit , Sambar - you have me a bit worried now .

The problem here isnt whats ethical , its whose ethics are the right ethics. We are all differant ( thank god ) and each of us has his or her perception of what is right for them.

The problems start when person A tries to impose his ethic upon person B in the name of righteousness. Sounds kinda like politics and religion - the stuff wars are fought over ?

What I would personally really like to know is why Aussies in particular seem to keep raising this subject time after time and bleating out the same tedious drivel about penned animals and caged hunting etc. If you dont like - dont do it , but get over it ....

Or even better , go hunting , take your camera , and post an interesting hunting tale for us all to enjoy

There you go muzza, you have hit the nail on the head. Ethics are an individual, not collective, matter.

Laws are what govern us collectively, ethics individually.
If someone hunts within the law, then only his ethics seperate his behaviour from the rest.

As for why it keeps on cropping up, all I can think of is that people keep on confusing lawful with ethical. I also suspect some of it has to do with 'fair chase' rules for trophy awards, like SCI.

quote:

Originally posted by muzza:
What I would personally really like to know is why Aussies in particular seem to keep raising this subject time after time and bleating out the same tedious drivel about penned animals and caged hunting etc. If you dont like - dont do it , but get over it ....

South Africa has a very bad reputation for 'canned' hunting of dangerous game. In fact SCI no longer even accepts lions as trophies from South Africa in its trophy lists.

I think with all the shooting of "trophies" in tiny pens in NZ, shooting from choppers, scouting from choppers and maybe landing from a chopper, that a similar thing should be considered.

It wouldn't worry me, as 1) I don't intend to do any of those things; and 2) I don't enter the SCI registers either.

But both of those issues are very important with the "trophy wall collectors".


Muzza,

BTW the same things happen in Australia too, but not to the same extent. I'm not defensive about it, I think those sorts of operators need to be cleaned out. Why are you personally defensive about it that you use insulting language? (ie "bleating and tedious drivel")

If you do not participate in these low-life pursuits then why does it worry you as well?

Why John?

Cos you in particular keep raising the subject and spouting on about how every hunt in NZ is either from a helicopter gunship or conducted in a cage in some deerfarmers yards.

Its simple - if you dont want that sort of hunt - dont buy it . But give up blowing it out your arse about how bad it is and much of a lowlife you would have to be to engage in such practises. Its simple supply and demand , its not illegal , its not over to you as to the morality of it , ethics dont count if its not your hunt , and for some folk its their choice to hunt that way.

We are all free to choose for ourselves .But give off slagging all New Zealand hunting when you are having a bad day on the turps....

It's simple, shooting deer behind a wire is called hunting when an overweight deep-pocketed egocentric twit pays a heap of money to shoot a pet animal.

I won't see 60 yrs of age again, but I still stalk in the old fashioned way, on foot in forests. That, I think, is what some of you highphaluting guys call fair chase hunting, to me, its going for a look see for a deer.

quote:

Originally posted by muzza:

Its simple - if you dont want that sort of hunt - dont buy it . But give up blowing it out your arse about how bad it is and much of a lowlife you would have to be to engage in such practises. Its simple supply and demand , its not illegal , its not over to you as to the morality of it , ethics dont count if its not your hunt , and for some folk its their choice to hunt that way.

We are all free to choose for ourselves .But give off slagging all New Zealand hunting when you are having a bad day on the turps....

Muzza,

Personal abuse is the lowest form of debate and the mark of a weak debater without foundation to his arguments. You need to practice your mass debating techniques a bit more, mate.

Even before I read this post I posted a new post on the Best equipment for my Kiwi chamois/tahr hunt thread.

Just because you are defensive about these shocking unethical unsporting practices doesn't mean it isn't going to be raised again and again. Maybe not by me, but there are plenty of other people.

Look at how any discussion on hunting lion in South Africa quickly goes .......

Also isn't there a Kiwi forum where a similar discussion is going where a number of Kiwi's have expressed disgust. If I was a self-guided (what a term BTW ) free range Kiwi hunter I would think a lot of these shennanigans would be a joke. I haven't visited that forum for a long time but will get around to it.

As for the "hunting" you mention above. I do not agree it is hunting at all. Its like shooting milk cows in a paddock.

If an open slather approach is acceptable in Kiwiland, if say I am a useless shot can I choose to use a full-auto rifle. After all with a 30 round clip even if spraying I might have a chance.

Can I come over a spotlight myself a nice big stag? After all a spotlight will make it even easier, especially if I also shoot those tame hand fed stags filled with hormones and supplements in one acre pens.

***

Lastly if the ethics are all so OK, why don't the clients pose with their "trophies" in situ ie where they shot them. Perhaps with a solid pen wall behind or a nice big fence. Maybe pose the chopper behind as that dude with the water buffalo in the Top End does on the photo I just posted. Why do they always reposition the stag, tahr or whatever with bush behind, or on top of a mountain? Why do they need to make up all sorts of hero hunting stories to write in the magazines or tell their friends?

Surely if it was all acceptable, sporting, ethical, there is no need for all the window dressing to make it look and sound "right" .

quote:

What I would personally really like to know is why Aussies in particular seem to keep raising this subject time after time and bleating out the same tedious drivel about the penned animals and caged hunting etc. If you dont like - dont do it , but get over it ....

I have found that a lot of apologists for pen hunting are doing it themselves,now i`m NOT and i stress not saying that you are at all mate but there are a lot of "hunters" out there that dont shit can penned hunting as they are right into it and reckon its kosher.

JOHN ANSWERS IT WITH HIS OWN WORDS,WORDS THAT I AGREE WITH ENTIRELY.READ ON.

quote:

Lastly if the ethics are all so OK, why don't the clients pose with their "trophies" in situ ie where they shot them. Perhaps with a solid pen wall behind or a nice big fence. Maybe pose the chopper behind as that dude with the water buffalo in the Top End does on the photo I just posted. Why do they always reposition the stag, tahr or whatever with bush behind, or on top of a mountain? Why do they need to make up all sorts of hero hunting stories to write in the magazines or tell their friends?

EXACORY MATE, thats it, shoot in the pen then fly to the tops for instance with tahr and chamois for the pic ,never have a dozen strands of the fence in the pic with the NEW WORLD RECORD RED STAGS etc
The mighty hunter never lets on that he/she shot in the pen or worse as been done before that i know of is to shoot an animal in the crush so as to not damage(sic) its skin,true as i`m sitting here and it wouldnt suprise you at all who would have done it would you,of course not!

quote:

Surely if it was all acceptable, sporting, ethical, there is no need for all the window dressing to make it look and sound "right"

Wink .

Its a lost cause but I will continue anyway...

I am not an apologist for penned hunts or shooting out of helicopters. Nowhere have I said I condone it . What I have said - and some of you have not noted - is that the choice of how you hunt is totally the perogative of the individual.I also noted that it is not an unlawfull activity in this country.

If you as an individual can justify in your own mind shooting an animal in a cage or out the door of a chopper than that is entirely your right . Where the trouble starts is that other people then presume to impose their "ethics" onto Mr cageshooter/chopper hunter and tell him that he is a bastard for doing what was his legal right to do .

I dont give a rats arse if any of you people think its bad - it isnt your place - or your right - to inflict your views onto someone else. People are free to make their own choices as to how they hunt .The only one they have to justify it to is themselves. End of story.

And if they want to stage the photoshoot , thats is also their business , not yours or mine or anyone currently on active duty in Iraq or the Pope or anyone else. Thats the part that you guys cant grasp, or wont grasp , or dont want to grasp.

Let me spell it out in simple words .
YOU CANT TELL OTHER PEOPLE HOW TO CONDUCT THEIR HUNT.

quote:

I dont give a rats arse if any of you people think its bad - it isnt your place - or your right - to inflict your views onto someone else. People are free to make their own choices as to how they hunt .The only one they have to justify it to is themselves. End of story.

No mate its not end of story,why is it you rail on about us having a view and you then impose your views on us....?????doh! Its a fucking round table here after all mate!

The guy that said "you can always tell an aussie - you just cant tell them much " was obviously a smart guy in his own right .

According to you then Gryphon , I am the same as you lot - I want to impose my views on everyone else?

Unfortunately , had you read what I said , you would have seen that the exact opposite is the case . People are free to make their own choices, and that is the whole point of my argument here .

Problem is muzza you take it personally and it shows in your posts,you dont want us to contribute to your backyard, well why do you have your say in ours?

Your opening line in your last post and your signature is not exactly regarded as highbrow humour you sheep fucker

So - what actually is your problem then ?

You seem to be doing your best to agitate on several hunting forums , noticeabley Australian and New Zealand ones.

Are you anti hunting guide ? You are definately anti helicopter. Spell out for me just what your actual beef with the hunting set-up in this part of the world is .

As far as your comment on sheep fucking - having seen and heard many of the women in Australia I have to say that our sheep have a distinct edge over your women anyday - at least you can have an intelligent conversation with the sheep after you have shagged it - which is more than can be said for most aussies . If you want to get down to a personal slagging match go for it . But just answer my questions above first , cos you intrigue me with your motives.

Hey Mussa

We'd better be carefull talking about the intelligence of some of the posters to these threads, most schools of thought deam it impractical to analyse factors that can't be measured.

In this I am reminded of Muldoon's famous saying (which I won't repeat for the sake of fanning any flames) that applies most appropiately to this line of thought.

Cheers - Foster

Another line on this . . .

Has anyone ever noticed (I speak from my experience here in NZ) how so called hunters (including so called Trophy hunters of the sort that seem to be the only ones regarded as ethical) seem to like to have a "bomb up" on goats or possums or some other "pest", and justify it in some way to themselves and others just because they are pest animals.

I don't think this is very ethical hunting (it is pest destruction, a necessary evil here) but they don't seem to differentiate !!

It all comes down to ones definition of hunting, mine is about putting wild game meats on the table, from my perspective one could say "wheres the ethics in shooting the stongest, most dominant individual of any herd to hang on ones wall", wether it was shot in fair chase or by any other means.

Cheers - Foster

PS I just thought Nitro may be feeling a bit out of it cause if it was the other way round, no-one would consider him a trophy quality head

quote:

You seem to be doing your best to agitate on several hunting forums , noticeabley Australian and New Zealand ones.

Are you anti hunting guide ? You are definately anti helicopter. Spell out for me just what your actual beef with the hunting set-up in this part of the world is .

First of all mate show me what you construe as the agitation,the posts etc espec on the NZ forums,come on show me mate.

And you are not agitating with your comments re: Aussie sheilas haha, come on now at least i said mine with a laugh.
Apparently you seem to think i`m anti guide,well yes but only those guides that abuse all the ethics of fair chase and use spotlights for deer,helicopters as outlined above,or other vehicles for running down game including snowmobiles etc and especially those guides that work out of pens mate.
Ethical guides? i certainly dont have a problem at all with them,seeing as you know my posts enough as you say maybe you should already know this,are you having a problem grasping this now Muzza?
Here is a post from the owner of the biggest hunting forum in NZ and as he says he`s been pro for 25 yrs,that means a pro guide himself,take it up with Alan S. why dont you.I cant remember you posting anything in reply to him on that forum.

Anyone else notice when a Kiwi defending the undefensible gets rattled they immediately start with personal abuse and attacks, either on the person or a country.

Gryphon has laid it out perfectly. Muzza says he doesn't do it, isn't involved, just believes everyone can do as they please if it is legal. Yet if someone disagrees strongly with his ideas, as in these threads, he immediately attacks the person with personal abuse, and basically demands they change THEIR opinions.

Hypocritical is the word I use for that sort of behaviour.

***

The real issues:

Hunting by chopper.

Spotting game by chopper for "alledged" sporting hunting.

Shooting tame old breeding stags from deer farms as hunting trophies in tiny little pens and even handling yards.

Hiding all this by making up hunting stories and manipulating photos to make it look like a real hunt.

Legal, maybe. Defensible? Lets see if more personal abuse turns up in answer, hey?

***

There is only so long this sort of behaviour can be hid until it eventually blows up in a country's face.

oops i might as well put "Weathered`s" post in reply up too!Remember these fellas are KIWIS and they know whats going on in their own backyard...do you? It appears i`m not the only one that is anti unethical guide eh? Or am i agitating mate?

I`ve been abused by experts and Old Muzza aint one of those yet Nitro

quote:

There is only so long this sort of behaviour can be hid until it eventually blows up in a country's face.

How true those wrods are mate.

Gryphon

You aren't playing fair. Muzza has lost his argument that it is just us Aussies having a go at all the good Kiwis.

Far from it. I admire the good Kiwi hunters. Those that will climb a mountain before daybreak so to be at the tops for a good few hours of hunting. Then descend again hopefully carrying out a chamois or tahr head and headskin plus a leg of meat.

More than I can do. I would HAVE to catch a chopper to the top and then hunt on foot. Nothing wrong in that in my view.

And now you hae proven Kiwis themselves do not agree with Muzza and co.

No one has yet answered the question,

If it is all so OK, why do they need to hide and lie about how they do it?

quote:

Far from it. I admire the good Kiwi hunters. Those that will climb a mountain before daybreak so to be at the tops for a good few hours of hunting. Then descend again hopefully carrying out a chamois or tahr head and headskin plus a leg of meat.

Me too Nitro i admire those blokes that do it so as well,i look at some of their pics and think geezus how tough is that place etc.Hitching a ride for the stay on the tops hunt is one thing of course ,the other? well we know what its about.

Hey as we are talking about high country animals i wonder how this thread would be received on the sheep hunting forums of the world.

It's not that i support shooting from choppers,its happening and there is nothing we can do about it.
I think what some of you are forgetting or don't know is that if animal numbers get to high government shooters/cullers go in and shoot every animal nannies,trophy bulls,kids from choppers and just leave the animals where they fall.
These animals are not seen as resource or game animal,they are seen as pests to be shot on sight.
So every animal shot by a New Zealander or overseas hunter/shooter is one less the government have to pay to kill.
I can't see there is anything myself or any other New Zealand can do about it,i did not vote for the government we have now.

quote:

Originally posted by TOP_PREDATOR:
It's not that i support shooting from choppers,its happening and there is nothing we can do about it.

A very fair comment.

quote:

When is an outfitters' hunt on private high fenced land a "hunt", and when is it just another "canned" shoot on a deer farm?

never in my view, to shoot deer behind the wire isn't hunting its nothing more than check book hunting or antler collecting.

to be a fair chase hunt (huning) the animal need to be in the wild and not interduced to a property with a high fence no matter what size the place is

just my 2 cents

opinions are like ass holes we all have one some are just bigger that others

Hello Madness...nice to see you here,there are a few of your cobbers here too