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One of Us |
Over the Easter weekend during the roar a hunter shot another hunter in the head, killing him. They were both calling deer by 'roaring' and ended up stalking each other. Well, the hunter was convicted and sentenced today. He got nine months imprisonment. Apparently he claimed that he saw deer hair and was convinced it was a deer so he shot at that patch or deer hair which turned out to be another hunter wearing an orange high viz cap. I still don't get it. He saw deer hair - which part of the deer did he think he was seeing? The rump? The gut? The thigh? Is he saying he just shot at a patch of deer hair? See what I'm getting at? Well here's the rub - I'm told this chap is head of the NZ Deer Stalkers Association! I have not confirmed this yet so it could be misinformation. Regards 303Guy | ||
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One of Us |
Lots of negligent shootings going on at the moment. | |||
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one of us |
I never understood how someone shoots another hunter in the field. How do you shoot at something if you don't know exactly what part of the animal you are shooting at? You need to identify something specific on the animal to know whether your bullet is going to hit the vitals so how could you shoot another person? Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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| One of Us |
Not good. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Moderator |
Not good at all. My condolences to the family of the guy that was shot. And he was hearing a hi viz cap  is that stuff worth it do you think if things like this can still happen?------------------------------ A mate of mine has just told me he's shagging his girlfriend and her twin. I said "How can you tell them apart?" He said "Her brother's got a moustache!" | |||
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one of us |
I am sure alcohol and drugs play a part in some of these shootings. "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." Sir Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
You will never overcome stupidity. Maybe time to go to Hi Viz FLURO YELLOW like the workers wear. Agree re Alcohol and Drugs and would add or medicine and maybe lack of sleep ? Lack of sleep severely retards decision making. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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| one of us |
He is not the first hunter to be shot wearing Hi Viz. In most cases the hunters are known to each other. "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." Sir Winston Churchill | |||
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One of Us |
don't get caught up with the hi-viz issue some old caps I've seen people wearing look a dull red, theres hi-viz and then there is hi-viz it still comes down to identify your target. I've survived 2 hunting shooting incidents it happens, 1 was my companion the other not keep your barrell clean and your powder dry | |||
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One of Us |
Strange things happen. An ADA report recently said older, more experienced hunters were more likely to be responsible than newbies in cases like this, and that blaze orange is less safe than you'd think. I still wear the orange hat, though, and others often saying how easy it is to spot in the bush. | |||
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One of Us |
The shooter was a former President of the Wellington branch of NZDA. Sad situation. Last year some young guys went spot lighting from a vehicle near a camping ground and shot from the road and hit a camper in the neck when he was brushing his teeth before going to bed! Totally illegal on several counts - prison sentence there too. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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One of Us |
The camper was a 'she' and it was a camping site on DOC reserve, not a full blown camping site as most would imagine by that description. The unfortunate young lady was shot through the face with her toothbrush handle being cut in half by the bullet. The headlamp she was wearing as she crouched by the stream looked like the eye/s of a deer in the spotlight of the young guys who were illegally spotlighting on DOC land and also breaking the law by shooting from a vehicle. Absolutely no excuse and the two year prison sentence probably not enough. Same in the case of the Easter shooting, and older experienced hunter, president of the local Deerstalkers Association branch and also a warranted Firearms Safety Instructor too (now ex both positions). A nine month prison sentence plus $7,000 reparation to the family of the victim. Nowhere near the sentence that should be handed down for such a careless and 'deliberate' act. Personally I feel anyone who shoots another hunter through not positively identifying their target should be sentenced on the basis that it was not an accident through inattention, distraction, tiredness, etc, etc, such can be the case in motor vehicle accidents causing death or injury, but aiming and pulling the trigger is a deliberate and calculated act and must be seen and treated as the highest level of culpability for causing death, probably manslaughter. As a firearms safety instructor myself we teach, and most definitely should practice, that you must be able see the full head, neck and front shoulders of an animal to be able to positively identify it. Obviously a head with a set of antlers or horns if clear and visible is going to be sufficient but when hunting and taking any age, sex, or species at anytime as we do here in NZ, positive target ID is paramount before taking a shot. I have seen shooters who are just far too quick on the draw. I have always been slower and deliberate in ascertaining my target to not only be sure that it is the animal I'm after but also to try and get the best part of the animals body in view for a better killing shot. Never have liked head or neck shots, too easy to miss or to inflict horrendous but not necessarily fatal facial injuries to animals. I would sooner come home with no meat than to come home with no mate or to have lost a wounded animal. | |||
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| One of Us |
"Obviously a head with a set of antlers or horns if clear and visible is going to be sufficient " And pray like hell that it is not someone carrying out a head on his back. We've all seen the photos like the above and it has often made me wonder of anyone has been scoped before doing that. . Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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| One of Us |
No you pray like hell that they are a good shot and actually hit it in the head.  If carrying a dead animal it is always a good thing to tie on or cover it with something that will not look like animal. Pig hunters seem to place themselves at most risk with the prevalent method of carry of the whole animal on the back with the front end up over the hunters shoulders. If crawling through scrub or crouching low under bush, the hunter puts himself at high risk if there are other hunters around as for all intents and purposes they may well identify the pig on a hunters shoulders as a legitimate target i.e. they actually do see through the scope a pig. BTW there has been quite a bit of research done here in NZ on best colours for clothing in the bush to prevent being shot and blaze orange or red is nowhere near the best. Quite often the blaze orange caps and jackets are a muted orange combined with streaks of black, brown or green which tends to take away the effect of a pure bright colour. UN blue has been found to stand out the best in bush and is not a natural colour found in the bush (in NZ anyway). | |||
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One of Us |
Back in the 3rd world where I came from (South Africa, in case you're asking), we used to be able to get a blue camo pattern specifically made for hunting. Don't know why anyone thought it was necessary, because over there, there wasn't any hunting on public land, so in theory anyway, everyone in a hunting area knew where everyone was. Made by Zarco IIRC - and here it is Zarco Still in the good old RS of A ... -- Promise me, when I die, don't let my wife sell my guns for what I told I her I paid for them. | |||
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| One of Us |
Yeah but as one is actually hunting, and many animals can supposedly see blue like a beacon, perhaps not the choice. It should all come back down to training and education. Unless hunter numbers are very dense, even requiring blaze orange should not be necessary. Tying some fluorescent streamers onto antlers or an animal being carried out sounds like a good idea. Many hunters carry these in their pockets anyway. | |||
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| One of Us |
My flat mate claims it best to wear proper camo so he can't be seen at all. He has a point. Do deer see pink? No man will mistake a woman for a deer (I hope). Regards 303Guy | |||
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| one of us |
Interesting comments about blue as it's my experience too. Our cases of shootings in the USA are similar to yours .While in the past they were usually ' hunting accidents" but now more and more they are things like 'criminaly negligent homicide' . Of course there are dumb shootees also. Like the one in Colorado who was wearing a full length black parka ,hood up ,rifle nearby against a tree. In bear country,he was pacing back and forth .The experienced shooter watched for a while to make sure and shot his 300 win from 300 yds. | |||
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| One of Us |
The problem with most blaze orange jackets or caps is that they get dirty through carrying in a pack or from wearing in the field and then tend to look like the reddish brown of an animal. At certain times of year and with different shadings their coats, red deer can look quite orange or red in colouring (hence the name I suppose). I understood that the deer and goat family are completely colour blind but I stand to be corrected here. I know insects see a lot more of the blue spectrum than humans do. Clothing or caps in a UN blue colour still hold that colour even when dirty so are probably the best hedge in terms of clothing colour against getting accidentally shot but it will always come down to the mutt behind the butt that will determine if you live or die when hunting among others. | |||
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One of Us |
Blue is certainly a colour that doesnt appear naturally in our native bush , and is in the colour spectrum that animals dont detect other than monochromatically. ________________________ Old enough to know better | |||
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I've read that deer see yellow in some form or way. Makes me wonder about the fluorescent yellow/green Hi Viz. One gets blue Hi Viz too that would indicate it is effective in general. Apparently searches are able to locate blue in the bush or ocean (not sure about the latter). Regards 303Guy | |||
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| One of Us |
Studies in the USA I thought found deer and ducks found blue highly visible. | |||
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| One of Us |
I think you'll find Yellow and Orange are better in the Ocean. Major contrast between the two, water and the colour. . Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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| One of Us |
two primary mechanisms heighten observation by creating contrast. - reflected light intensity ( greyscale intensity in monochrome vision determined by the rods in the retina) - colour contrast ( determined by the cones in the retina) The density of individual cones sensitive to particular light frequencies in the retina determine the range of colour perception . Object shape & object movement are primarily determined by the image established by the rods , which is enhanced by the perceived colours of the image. colourblindness does not provide invisibility, greyscale tone is still perceived of every colour. Camouflage is enhanced by maintaining a broken shape profile in greyscale tone and colour contrast within the prevailing background of the field of effective vision. Hunter observation by another hunter whilst maintaining camouflage to a hunted animal is achieved by colour contrast available to the hunter which the animal is not particularly receptive to. The key element here is that the tone of the colour in the greyscale must be compatible to the prevailing background to not make the hunter ( in movement or profile) easily perceived by the animal. ie an animal might not be able to see (say) red well at all , but a hunter clad in light red will be easily seen against a dark backround in profile or as perceived movement, due to greyscale contrast detected by the rods in the retina. mid-scale tones are best to minimise greyscale contrast against most backgrounds ( nothings perfect). any animal that predominantly feeds at night will inevitably have evolutionary enhancement of vision in the UV/near UV wavelengths, this also inevitably brings a side effect of somewhat better colour perception in the near UV wavelengths ( purples/blues/). Any animal that feeds on vegetation is going to have evolutionary enhancement of green vision. ie if it couldn't see what it eats or its predators ( at night) very well ...........it would have died out long ago. | |||
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| One of Us |
You'd wonder how Robin Hood ever got near a deer while wearing Lincoln green. But, yes, greens with lots of blue in them should be closer to UV end of the spectrum. On that other question, I wonder if orange in camo patterns prevents being shot much in Old World forests because some of the leaves are also near that colour, if not blaze orange. Solid blaze orange sticks out like dogs' cojones but I was told of a Wyoming hunter who reckoned he'd been shot at more since wearing it than he had while wearing green. That's weird from every angle, I know - I just hope he wasn't including army service in that claim. | |||
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| One of Us |
Why would that be? There is no UV light at night - or is there? Or is it because of the nature of night light that just happens to enable UV detection? I've heard it said that old hunting clothes might seem well camouflaged to us but are reflective of UV and other wavelengths that make them stand out like beacons to animals we are trying to stalk. Regards 303Guy | |||
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| new member |
I think your opening post portrays how even an experienced hunter need only make one mistake to change his life forever. Unfortunately high power rifles and mistakes don't mix. I remember reading about a high profile gunwriters early days when he was glassing a hill for stags. He explained he had seen a doe feeding under a tree, but had continued glassing for a stag. He was dumbfounded when he saw the doe move, as it was two hunters sitting together wearing driza-bone brown jackets & the combined form, with hats blending together looked like a doe feeding. I guess it serves as a reminder to us all to be careful in identifying targets before committing, as I bet none of the persons involved in these tragic shootings thought it could ever happen to them. uv(blue) is on the opposite end of the colour spectrum to orange/red. It is believed that deer eyes are more sensitive to the blue end of the colour spectrum ,rather than the orange end. That is why blaze orange is used as a hunting safety colour(that the deer supposedly don't see), & why some people say don't use laundry detergent with UV brighteners( it will make your whites brighter) to wash hunting clothes with. | |||
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| one of us |
UV did you say? Voles dribble urine as they walk along and it reflects UV. Kestrels can see UV. They just follow the dotted line and get their lunch !!  | |||
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| One of Us |
If you get a Blaze Orange cap and wash it in laundry soap, it will glow like the preverbial !!! You still need to make sure a Blaze Orange cap doesn't have UV in it or they will still see it / you as something that stands out. . Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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| One of Us |
Interesting question. We think of UV light as being the dangerous element in sunlight and yet 'night arrives with her purple legion'. | |||
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| One of Us |
Yep interesting isn't it starlight/night light is high in UV/near UV wavelength light. BUT its low light level The nett effect is low levels of UV, but its the predominant wavelength light around to reflect off anything to be able to see it at all under starlight. | |||
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| One of Us |
I wondered about starlight. Many stars are blue giants, high in UV. So what about on overcast or rainy days/nights? Is that why one sees fewer animals out in rainy conditions at night or even in the daytime? Regards 303Guy | |||
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| One of Us |
Irrespective of what colour range animals may or may not see better, if we want to wear clothing to prevent other hunters shooting us, then the colour should be one that humans best distinguish in the bush and that has been proven in testing to be blue. Out in the open blaze orange stands out so if you are wanting searchers or a chopper to see you then blaze orange it is. Unfortunately in the bush blaze orange merges very well with the browns and reds found naturally in the vegetation, especially if it is the camo pattern type orange most commonly used in hunting clothing and caps. Many of the hunting fatalities in recent years in our bush attributed to failure to identify the target, have been hunters killed when wearing blaze orange clothing and caps. | |||
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| One of Us |
I don't want to distract the thread from it's distraction - camo is most interesting and I want more information. But, briefly going back to the shooting of the hunter, the question I still keep asking is how in hell does someone get to the state where he shoots at an unidentified piece of 'deer' hair which he is convinced that he has identified as deer hair (remember the victim was 'roaring' like a deer). Did he do this routinely? Shooting at a patch of deer hair in the bush with the hopes of hitting a vital organ? Is he a complete idiot? Or was there a circumstance leading up to the 'accident' that could just as easily happen to any of us? See why I'm asking? It's easy to judge and condemn this guy but was it simply an attitude and poor practice problem or is there a condition that could catch any of us? I want to know so I can avoid it and avoid being a victim. But please, do keep with the camo information. Regards 303Guy | |||
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| One of Us |
How ? Same way you shoot at a set of eyes and shoot a person cleaning their teeth besides the river . Same way you hit your mate as he climbs the hillside after a deer he just shot. Both of those cases involve spotlighting , but both also involved the root cause of this event - failing to positively identify your target. the fact that the guilty party in this case was a NZ Mountain Safety Council Firearms Instructor makes it even more depressing reading because he was tasked with conducting the licencing lectures that involve teaching licence applicants how to be a safe user of firearms . There is no answer to how or why because every situation is different. All we can do is educate hunters well , and hope they retain that knowledge. ________________________ Old enough to know better | |||
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| One of Us |
Our brains are interpreting an electric signal sent from the eyes. All of us at some time or another have seen something that it turned out wasn't. Maybe a rabbit on the roadside that turned out to be a rock. I once saw another hunters legs and rifle butt behind a bush and could of sworn they were deer legs for a second. Its often experienced hunters who make this mistake fatal because they are used to reacting quickly when a deer is spotted. Too quickly. I beleive the best idea is to head into the hills, knowing you can make a mistake. | |||
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| One of Us |
Their is an actual word for what you describe, where the eyes see one thing but the brain tells you it is something else. And it's not "anticipation" !!! Part of it is to do with your brain discarding certain information that does not conform to what you are wanting to see. Always good to look away for a while then back and look at things through your peripheral vision. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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| One of Us |
Well summed up in what you have written and I would only add that it is best to head into the hills thinking I'm pleased to be out in the hills and if I am lucky enough to positively identify and get an animal that is good, if I don't see or get the chance of an animal I'm hunting then there is always another day. | |||
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| One of Us |
brent That is a scary story indeed and good example. I've seen it duck hunting, you are sure that a couple of ducks are winging their way towards you in the distance - and sometimes closer. . Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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