Deleted

As Karl would say I'm running away, but really decided to shelve it again.

BCBrian
I see you really didn't get an answer to your Q
So a brief description of laws as they are in Victoria - no doubt I will have missed some stuff.

Generally banned: semi auto rifles and shotguns, pump action shotguns (not rifles) Farmers and some olympic style shooters can get permits for semis and pumps.
They also banned greater than 38cal pistols except for silhouette and cowboy action shooters, this was a silly rule because the foriegn student that shot the people that caused the law change used a 9mm.
Gun laws are state laws but that little c^&*% of a prime minister told the state premiers that if gun laws were not made the same between the states he would cut their funding.
So you have to have a license to own a gun, give a good reason to buy greater than a 22lr, have an alarm if you own more than 15,

Pistol license is harder to get, have to have a steel cabinet/safe with minimum 5mm(1/4") thick sides bolted down or weigh more than 150kg(340lbs?) minimum range attendance 10 times a year in competitions.

Nitro,

Something you might consider. The greenies and their brothers and sisters are extremists and look far they got things.

The average member of the public is not interested in guns and gun laws, at least where they will vote on the issue and the average politician is not interested. But the "genuine anti" who is not a bunny hugger, the bunnny huggers only make up numbers, drives the politicians nuts.

You said you know nothing of NSW gun laws. Well let me outline briefly what happened in the 1988 election.

Labor was in office and not doing well and went with the gun law issue as their had been shootings. What they proposed is essentially the same gun laws as ou have today. Polls consistently showed figures of 85 to 90% of people in favour of the proposed gun laws.

Only problem for Labor is those people don't vote based on gun laws. The shooters and the Lib/National party teamed up together and Labor lost office. Seats that were normally blue ribbon Labor were lost. Unfortunately such results would not transfer to a Federal election because of where shooters tend to live and the Federal seats are so much larger.

It was in fact that election that was responsible for the bi partisan approach to gun laws in 1996 by Labor and Lib/Nat. The non shooter does not vote one way or the other on gun laws.

A few years ago in the coucil area where I live there was a move by council to ban all brothels. Like the gun issue the polls greatly favoured the banning of brothels. Howeve, the brothel people played the game much harder. They would have people phone canvassing and telling lies about what would happen with bus services and the like. They jammed up the councils offices. They would have people do shits outside the offices late at night.

The result was that the average member of council who had no interest one way or the other in brothels decided that banning them was having very negative effects.

The brothel people had a simple approach to council....you ban brothels and we will fuck you up.

The "genuine antis" also play the game very hard.

By the way, are you aware that the original gun law proposals would have limited you to owning one gun in the same or similar calibres and the calibre would have had to have macthed the use to which it was put.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Bad Ass Wallace:
Look at the bun fight Peter Beatty is in;control beer outlets in Brisbane to kurb night time drunkeness!

Great Idea, I support it strongly,

Yeah prohibition has always solved a lot of problems.

All those kids illegally buying alcohol will never get hold of it now.

Just like druggies don't get hold of heroin and ecstasy from 7-11's either.

You are right though about the numbers of the drinkers, its a big voting body.

But once again all those pissy minority anti groups like Anti-guns, anti-dog breed etc have even less members than the people who own those things.

They just put in a lot more groundwork. Shooters for example put in almost none.

Mike375 and his crew are part of the reason we did not have more stuff banned.

NitroX has learnt yet again the hard way there is a little too much proof in favour as this.

No hard feelings NitroX if you want to shelve it all. I think this outburst was the result of my PM reply to you when you came running to tell me the 'dickhead moderators had been deleting my posts' recently.

I can see how a fair weather freind could get a bit mixed up on that thread.With DRG digging himself a hole but none of the moderators defending him.

You were half with me until I snapped at you for being a snitch- and now we are back to square one

Karl.

I hate to say it, but I'm with Karl on this one. It's so true about giving an inch and them taking a mile. The antis aren't stupid, and they aren't bold enough to completely ban everything all at once. They would rather wear us down one gun at a time, or even one caliber at a time - mark my words.

As soon as YOU have to justify YOUR NEED to own a gun, they don't have to justify their want to take it away. It passes all the burden onto the gun owner. They don't have to try harder to take things away. You just have to try harder to keep them. Not a good thing, my friends... Do you have to submit a written justification to own knives, cars, cricket bats, or hammers? These are all deadly weapons - just as deadly as any gun (and more deadly than some!) in the proper situation.

Let's take a look at the facts - how many people are killed by gunfire each year and compare that to how many people are killed by any and all other ways. Now, take away from the total of gunfire deaths the number of criminals shooting each other. These numbers do not count because criminals are not affected by gun laws (no matter what kind of gun laws you have, these people are not going to follow them - that's why they are called 'criminals'). What do you have left? Not very damn much.

If some nut job goes off and kills 40 people with a chainsaw, no one screams to take away everyone's chainsaw. There, it's the person's fault. If someone does the same thing with a gun - it's the gun's fault. Now that's flawed logic.

Captain,the other problem is the average gunowner screams and kicks(albiet in a pretty minor way..) but he'll be the first to say there should be pool fence laws to prevent kids drowning, or registration /banning of dangerous dog breeds anytime some kid gets their face chewed off, or banning drinking outlets, or banning fast cars or 4WD's in the city etc. etc.

You can see guns are only 5% of the issue , which is the 'goverment intervening' to 'make all these things safer'.

The reason you can never get gunowners right behind the fight is quite simply, they support 95% of the same intervention in the other areas
above.

Karl.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl:
If a released criminal or nutter is banned from guns what the hell is he doing-

Having a wife.


Karl.

This is part of his punishment.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl:


..............

Karl

As you did not bother to mention I PMed you to let you know that I was taking your name in vain on that thread, and don't believe in doing it behind peoples backs. So was letting you know, thickie.

I think what I wrote on that thread was something in answer to a complaint by someone to your crass low-class racist jokes thread (showing your class, hey?) was for the fellow to tell some ..............

dumb bouncer jokes.



Your “intellect†is really being wasted. The problem with finding dumb bouncer jokes is it is really easy (basically impossible not to) to find dumb bouncers but what is funny about these sad, bitter loosers?

quote:

Originally posted by Karl:
I can see how a fair weather freind

Karl Karl

Why do you assume you have any friends on the 'net, let alone real life?

This is similar to your paranoia complex, in that you assume people that wouldn’t give you the time of day in ‘real life’ are your friends.

Remember to keep taking those pills.

quote:

This is similar to your paranoia complex, in that you assume people that wouldn’t give you the time of day in ‘real life’ are your friends.

Remember to keep taking those pills.

NitroX,
What you are saying is you feel mental stability is lacking when someone does not delete their posts, explode publicly, snitch or start personal attacks when the subject matter gets a little tough?


Karl.

Message to Karl and other civil libertarians from Earth ,
Unlike yourself the vast majority of us consider that there are some laws and regulations that actually make sense . Shock / horror , some of them even apply to firearms !
Look on the bright side . That pool fence might save your Pit Bull from drowning (as it tries to chew the face off the kids in the pool) .
Picture this scenario - No laws , no fence , no leash , no responsibility .Your Pit Bull attacks my kid while he's playing on my front lawn , I step outside with my pump action . Rover is headed for eternal happy hunting and you're going with him .
Happy with that outcome ?

Bushschook, you understand my point perfectly. In that case the stupid dogs get drowned, kids learn not to fuck around in other people's yards with their dogs, and people learn the hard way a man's yard is his territory.
We are back a few decades ago with plenty of guns, way less laws, and less crime too.
I would stay away from your yard and if my pitbull was drowning you would say, who gives a fuck, its his pool.

You are like me in the opinion that the increase in laws and regulations(almost doubling just in the last 20 years) have not resulted in halving crime.

Karl.

Karl ,
Yes we are in an over-regulated society and there is no doubt that those with criminal intent aren't bothered by breaking the law .
Whilst you can't legislate against stupidity there are certain things you can do that will reduce the damage that can be done by the stupid .
I'm sure you and Mike375 can see that having idiots running around with guns doesn't do any good for the long term image / continuity of the sport .
There is a balance to be found . No gun laws aren't it , nor are some of the ridiculous laws we have at present . I'm done on this subject .

Bushchook,
Seems we agree on the over regulated society then. If you feel idiots running around probably doesn't do any good for the sport then you would also feel guns used for sport(for no better reason than fun)may be considered idiotic itself, when you compare to the risk of an occasional accident and death.

It is the same philosophy that ultimately supports the removal of all guns.


As to any sort of balance, where you draw the line with laws, say right now, might be satisfactory to you, whereas many hunters may consider pre-1996 good or even 1970 the balance-when there was less crime, less idiots and less bad publicity.

In this case the happiest gunowners( or car drivers or beer drinkers or pitbull breeders) are the ones with almost no laws relating to them, except normal law of the land.


If you feel the current laws are still letting a few idiots through, and damaging our image then we might as well ban all these things now to stop all idiots totally ruining the future for them


For me personally I would not care if there were no laws. Honestly the tribal society or mad max scenario puts me much higher in the pecking order than I am now.

However regarding those who do want some sort of laws-
If you think of laws(natural or otherwise) as not a stationary ideal but as a ball rolling. We either roll to stagnation(or what I equate as a police state) or chaos/anarchy (lack of laws)

Most people find the idea of either extreme undesirable so it should be in their best interests to keep the ball rolling back and forth.

Currently the ball has been heading one way long enough in my books with no attempt to stop its acceleration.

The winning mindset is to get it going back the other way. And that involves tackling laws in more areas than guns.

Karl.

quote:

Honestly the tribal society or mad max scenario puts me much higher in the pecking order than I am now.

Two minors queries here Karl - do you really believe this statement ????

And are you for real ????

Muzza,
Well for the tribal pecking order relating to hunting for 1- I would think most people on this site would possess an extra or stronger trait than the average people they compete with now in 9-5 jobs.

In the other scenario, a thug unbound by laws is no different from the medieval aristocracy, which developed from the top thugs in the dark ages.

The top thugs are also the top salesman of course(just like politicains today) but a poor ass population under you with relatively little self protection is where a 'lesser thug' can live pretty well also.

Because it is pretty much free reign as long as the top guys get their cut.

To give a lesser extreme example is when 90% of the hunters on this site say -"Gee I wish I could have been an african explorer back in the old days"
" 'No laws', 'free reign hunting' and everything inlcuding risk and personal responsibilty coming down to me"

Or even a more modern one like talking about the 70's.
"Gee it was good when I could build whatever house I wanted on my land, could drink and smoke when and where I wanted, own more guns, walk up a ladder without being given a course in ladder safety etc."

Some people feel more safe and live more happliy with a great deal of contrictions for 'their own good'.

And some of us think we could do better with more personal freedom etc. which is getting back to the subject is what the whole gun rights thing is about.

Karl.

Originally posted by muzza:

quote:

Careful mate or you will have a minor thug with social climbing aspirations beating on your door - maybe even your backdoor...

But muzza you knocked on my door. For the second time- since you were still supposed to be ignoring me after the first time.

It seems you tried to get into a club you said you never wanted to go to again, and bouncer being a nice guy has happily obliged , but the pressure of having your own opinion has become a bit much and you have stormed off again.

I hear that new club may be what you are after.

Not much action so the owner also has to be the manager,bouncer DJ, and even do most of the pole dancing himself by the look of things, but it seems a pretty safe place for those who don't like these clubs

In fact I think the same owner used to run a club about 'anti insurance salesman' after another bouncer called Mike375 or something beat him up over a 30-06.

It went bankrupt pretty quick to, but it was worth dropping in to see the manager dancing with himself before it did

Karl.

quote:

Originally posted by muzza:

quote:

Honestly the tribal society or mad max scenario puts me much higher in the pecking order than I am now.

Two minors queries here Karl - do you really believe this statement ????

And are you for real ????

And people think I am joking when I posted about mental instability.

Everyone is a hero in their "fantasies", except some people believe they are real.

Karl,

In a breakdown of society you would just be cannon fodder like you are in "real life".

Karl- I find it interesting that you would take a quote from one topic and post it in another topic to justify your own point of view .

As for your "legend in your own lunchtime " viewpoint that you would be higher ranked in a tribal society than your current role - frankley I find that even funnier than NitroX's dumb bouncer jokes . And having crossed swords with you on several subjects , the more I see of your postings the more I become convinced that you have taken one too many hits to the head from your teenybopper patrons.

I asked " do you really believe this crap " or polite words to that effect , and also "are you for real " and I see that yes , you do beleive this crap ( why escapes me tho ). But as for "are you for real ?" - I have grave doubts that you have any concept of reality . Provoking a fight so you can beat the snot out of some half pissed teenager might be your way of breaking the monotony of your job , but it doesnt make you a respectable member of society , nor does it prove that you are tougher than any others or more deserving of adulation . Your world seems to revolve around boosting your ego, and if turning otherwise sensible forum space into a private boost to your own little world ( which you do on most all the topics you enter ) then I might humbly suggest that you go start yourself a Karl Adoration web page where you can post pictures of yourself and wank yourself to your hearts desire .

I , and strangely enough lots of others here, find you to be nothing more than a playground bully , most of those others are obviously more polite than I and simply stay away when you are involved , but frankley you are an embarrassment to this forum , this website in general , and all members of the human race in particular.

If you had even a small amount of decency you would pull your head in and give up pissing people off at every opportunity , then you might create less antagonism on this site and the rest of us might even enjoy your occasionally usefull contributions .

No doubt this will invoke your next round of drivellish diatribe , but who actually cares - on the great sidewalk of life you , sir , are a rather small but very smelly dog turd struggling to be noticed amongst all the flotsam that life throws around .

On that note , I have nothing further to add to anything you wish to say on this thread , save that the absense of a moderator has not done us any favours in the last week or so .

quote:
Originally posted by muzza:
Karl- I find it interesting that you would take a quote from one topic and post it in another topic to justify your own point of view.


I find it interesting you are still replying to someone you are supposed to be ignoring.

I take it you felt the other club was doing okay for a while without your patronage so you thought you might drop back into the one you were never going to come to again.

I notice we even have the manager of the other club over here to prove he is the sanest troll threader/post deleter/insulter(admittedly he has not deleted his posts for a while ) and now has gone back to the dance floor at his place again for a couple of numbers.

Must have had another request from himself,ahem from the 'crowd'

Seriously muzza through all that what you are saying is you don't like people to bully, insult etc. and you have used more insults than anyone else to say it.

So in effect what you wish is one thing, that you were the top bully.

Now this current discussion has flowed on from the racist thread where in effect the moderators to let us post whatever we want is along the lines of what is keeping you going on this thread, and nitrox's new place from going bankrupt even faster.

Everytime you post in this way you validate the same argument.

So thankyou for your continued patronage, posting in a way that you wish terrible others did not

Karl.

[Karl,

just wondering if you got my e-mail or private message ??

was it acceptable or do you want to punch me

Poor Karl. We really should feel sorry for you and your excessive compulsive tendencies and anger issues.

BUT unfortunately the Australian Hunting and Shooting forum used to be an enjoyable place. I think everyone has noticed how it has died since you arrived.

Here's a challenge. Post something about Hunting and or Shooting for a change, maybe even try for 9 out of 10 posts. Bet you can't do it.

NitroX,
Do you feel more posting along the lines of your starring role on the other thread would improve the site/myself etc?

Or are you back here to talk about guns- as per your own advice. Which incidentally is what we were all doing before you started attacking the other posters and fell apart from it.


PC, sorry only just got your mail mate. Your offer is good but as I outlined in my reply the deal may not be what you are after. let me know though.

Karl.

Fuck! I've been away for several weeks (work)and look what's going on, I've got pissed off many times with some posters over time but I don't rave on and knock anyone on there views, look at Muzza the sheep rooter, gets up my nose sometimes (he is kiwi) but you gotta laugh at some of the stuff he says I reckon face to face we could really get on and of course over a beer or ten, because we are firearm owners and hunters, Karl and Mike375 have some really good points and I agree alot with them as with Nitrox. What everyone should remember is that the fight is with the Federal Liberal government, come the end of June, they will hold total power, and that will be a real worry, they will be able to pass any law/reg that they want, and who do we thank for that, those who voted for them and by the way I reckon alot of licenced firearm owners in Australia voted for them so what comes comes, if I gotta make a spear to hunt deer I will, but I bet the bastards will ban them too, then the tree huggers will ban anyone going near our forests with cloths on, I'm thinking a change in country maybe Kiwi if Muzza will have me or Canada who knows but I'm geting pissed off with fucken Howard and his SS jack boot wanker bastards who back him...Les

Sure, come on over and bring your rifles... we're always glad for another buddy in the war against DOC and the 1080 brigade :P

I'm away for a week so you will have to fight it out amongst yourselves while I am gone .

Too much political style crap on here for me - I'm going hunting ......

Incidentally 303 Kiwi - I am an advocate of 1080 in the right circumstancess...and welcome to the fray.

quote:

Originally posted by tracks:
Fuck! I've been away for several weeks (work)and look what's going on, I've got pissed off many times with some posters over time but I don't rave on and knock anyone on there views, look at Muzza the sheep rooter, gets up my nose sometimes (he is kiwi) but you gotta laugh at some of the stuff he says I reckon face to face we could really get on and of course over a beer or ten, because we are firearm owners and hunters, Karl and Mike375 have some really good points and I agree alot with them as with Nitrox. What everyone should remember is that the fight is with the Federal Liberal government, come the end of June, they will hold total power, and that will be a real worry, they will be able to pass any law/reg that they want, and who do we thank for that, those who voted for them and by the way I reckon alot of licenced firearm owners in Australia voted for them so what comes comes, if I gotta make a spear to hunt deer I will, but I bet the bastards will ban them too, then the tree huggers will ban anyone going near our forests with cloths on, I'm thinking a change in country maybe Kiwi if Muzza will have me or Canada who knows but I'm geting pissed off with fucken Howard and his SS jack boot wanker bastards who back him...Les

Tracks, everytime the biggest fight is with the gunowners themselves.

When it is on an internet forum mental breakdowns etc. are just part of the fun and shouln't have people getting so upset, as you have said.

But consider the same points being made in gun debate or legislation in the gun camp itself, and similar blowouts and you have a very weak pack.

When the antis push, the goverment squeezes and gunowners do most of the damage themselves.The other groups can just sit back and rub their hands.
The pistol guys legislate themselves without even any help from the antis, the muzzleloaders and cannon guys are doing the same, many gunowners did the same to save their own stuff in 1996, and handguns 2003 etc.

So much for a few beers to sort it all out.

For example Nitrox has left the thread for the second time.
You can see if I were head of say bolt action shooters, and NitroX was the muzzleloader crew boss, bolt action shooters would probably not get much support from the muzzleloader camp when it came to the crunch.

And just what precisely is the reason for that?
Gun laws are an easy thing to bitch about.

But at the end of the day the problem is gun owners,like the public, don't really care about gun laws that much.

Quite simply if they did, they would place it as higher priority to succeed as anything else in their life.

The proof is always in the pudding.

Karl.

il

quote:

Incidentally 303 Kiwi - I am an advocate of 1080 in the right circumstancess...and welcome to the fray.

So am I... But the curcumstances are "Everything" at the moment as far as DOC is concerend.
I'm far more of an advocate of cyanide pellet feeders, and think 1080 should be used ONLY in combination with the new deer repellant.

Theres more than enough hunters out there to take care of the deer if DOC wouldn't poison the venison that could be recovered by recreational hunters. Even placing a $100 bounty on un-tagged deer ears by recreational hunters (helicopter buzz-and-bang cowboys excepted) as the AHB makes it compulsory for farmed deer to have tags in both ears from 1 day old....
think of how many would be out there if we would get money back rather than having to spend money on a hunting trip.

Quite right Karl, The division between different diciplines within firearm owners would be the one of the main causes of our laws and regulation we have today, Two clubs I have belonged to in country Victoria had a division within it's own members, the rifle shooters wouldn't associate with the shotgunners, same with the u.i.t. pistol shooters, thought the action shooters were cowboys, and I've held the position of President in the pistol club and I had a gut full with the divisions within the clubs and told them to stick it. Well the pistol club I heard has just about folded up and the rifle/shotgun club the two groups don't talk, just argue about who's paying what for range improvements etc.
When fucken Howard proposed to ban some handguns I emailed Pistol Australia and asked them why they have'nt responed to media reports on the subject and asked them how pistol clubs could respond and take some sort of political stand/action and guess what, I got jack all from them, the old head in the sand crap don't worry it will go away, well it didn't and we copped it.
Some poster on this thread said he agreed with the banning of military style semi autos as we have no use for them, well he has no use for them but many do and when you lose one you just fucken well keep on losing the lot.
So there you go, Jonnny jack boot Howard would be rubbing his hands with a statement like that.
Anyone reading this just remember our government who ever they are out to disarm us if we don't stand as ONE you my as well start finding somewhere overseas to sell your legally required firearm...........

quote:

Anyone reading this just remember our government who ever they are out to disarm us if we don't stand as ONE you my as well start finding somewhere overseas to sell your legally required firearm...........

Tracks,that's right, and with comments like that you will find the powerful urge for most gunowners to keep their heads in the sand is still slightly less than their urge to get angry at others who are trying to pull theirs out.

I think there was an experiment (or maybe an urban myth)concerning monkeys and bananas to that effect. They used to give them a jolt if any of them reached for the banana- until no monkeys reached for it.

Then they turned off the juice and replaced the monkeys one by one.

Anytime a new one would reach for the banana the other monekys would attack him of their own accord

Until you had a cage of monkeys who had never been jolted, but were making sure no one ever reached for that banana because it just wasn't the done thing.

Karl.

G'day,
Karl, I seem to remember that experiment, wasn't it NASA during the 50's / 60's, an operant conditoning experiment? Something to do with the Mercury space program?
As for the anti's, of whatever type, the ONLY answer is to stick together. I am not sure who it was, one of the signatories on the declaration of independence (in the now USA) who said "Gentlemen, we must all hang together, else we shall all hang seperately" or words to that effect.
Someone out there must know the correct wording, but you get the idea.
Factional divides within the sport will be the end of us.

Cheers, Dave.

Dave,
As you can see it will be tough by the reaction of some of the nancies on the issue, who are not even sure what their own opinion is on the issue, but make as much noise in the cage as they can.

Like poor old muzza who is not a bad bloke, but has just left in disgust because a thread titled 'gun laws' has suddenly become too 'political' for him.

Shakes head sadly..

By the way mate, sorry I have not replied to your mail but I cannot seem to get onto the messages at the moment. However I got your number off it yesterday so will give you a call.

I am tied up doing army crap and exams next month but after that would love to come down.

Karl.

quote:

Originally posted by muzza:
I'm away for a week ......... I'm going hunting ......

Good on you mate. Doing some hunting and shooting.

Rather than like this other fellow who does most (or all ?) of his shooting with his mouth (or keyboard).

The next thing the bastards will try to ban is big bore rifles.

They have set a precedent with banning large calibre pistols.

All they are waiting for is an excuse, even if it isn't related at all.