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As a Canadian, I'm amazed at the lies that get printed in American gun magazines about how bad our gun laws are supposed to be up here. I guess they feel it's ok to lie to make a point. But, as a consequence I now don't believe too much of the anti-gun law rhetoric I read in magazines any more. In Canada, we have access to just about everything you could ever want. Mind you - this is coming from a guy who's never felt the need for an automatic assault rifle or bazooka in his closet. Here's my question. What are the laws like in your respective countries? How do most hunters find them when it comes to living with them? Are gun owners as paranoid as in some other countries when it comes to thinking any gun law (however reasonable) is going to lead to an un-armed population? If there are any 'unreasonable laws" in your countries - what's the most unreasonable? Thanks, I always like learing from others. | ||
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I guess you do not understand the difference between a God given right affirmed by a Constitution supreme over law, and a priviliedge granted by Pairlament. | |||
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I never knew God had a position on Gun Ownership!LOL! Secondly, I thought the American constitutional right "to carry arms" was accompanied by the phrase "in a well regulated civilian militia". Am I wrong on either of these points? | |||
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Well we can see where this is coming from. | |||
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As a very brief precis of New Zealand gunlaws - We have 4 classes of licence - A category is for general rifle and shotgun ownership , it excludes military-style semi autos , handguns , auto weapons , and semi autos with a magzine capacity of more than 15 for a hunting rifle . B category is for those people who belong to a pistol club , there are requirements to be met regarding your being an active shooter and a few other requirements .Individual firearm registration is in place . C category is for collectors , you may own a wide range of forearms as a collector , including family heirlooms , but they are supposed to be deactivated or made unable to be fired. Individual firearm registration is also in place here , but we can own machineguns and auto rifles , as well as handguns , grenades , rocket launchers etc. D category is for commercial dealers . All these classes of licence have security requirements that must be met , the security for all bar the first class are pretty stringent and you have to show that you comply before you will be issued with a licence . Background checks , referrees etc are all checked out by our Police , and a licence is good for ten years or the next change of government... We do not have a right to own firearms , it is definately a privelege , and one that you only get one go at . If the Police need to visit you for a domestic violence situation , you will lose your licence , same for drugs charges , your missus gets snippy with you and complains etc etc etc . However - we are nowhere near as draconian as the Aussie laws appear to be . Our politicians seem to have seen the cock-up other countries have made and tried to avoid the same here , but there is still time for that to change.. There is more to it than that , but thats the basic outline . ________________________ Old enough to know better | |||
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BCBrian "in a well regulated civilian militia". This is not part of the 2nd Amendment to the US Constition. I am not sure where you got this wording but it is incorrect. The wording is ...The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed upon. (period) The well regulated miltia part is in a seperate sentence. You must remember that in the context the Colonists had just fought a bloody war with, what they percieved, as a tyrannical British Government. At the same time the British in Canada were arming Indian Tribes and paying a bounty on Colonial scalps. It was viewed as a God Given Right to protect yourself and your family from the tyranny of government and other unfriendlies. | |||
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Well I live in Canada and I think the registration and the anti gun laws stink. Oh by the way, so do the Federal polititions!  derfQuando Omni Flunkus Moritati | |||
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I used to think that Italy was pretty bad in terms of beurocracy, but since my Aussie Licence expired and I 1. looked into the Renewal and 2. looked into coming home with guns from here on my Italian licence I have given it a second thought. Here we have a fairly simple licencing process, some jumping through hoops, but no less than in Australia. Secondly here you can, once you have obtained the licence by anything you feel like with the exeption of full autos and bazookas, when ever you feel like it then have to simply register them at your local cop shop, but writing up the equivalent of a stat dec. I got the peperwork for imoprting guns this year and it was a stack of papers, asking all kinds of questions, requiring letters from landowners ect to get them over, and it wasn't going to be looked at for 28 days, which meant I didn't have time to get it done. Here the import/export for hunting and sport is a simple matter which can take time, but if you go in to the office yourself and play along they will often do it for you on the spot if they understand that you will hassle them no end if they start to get lazy. At this point in time, the ferocious beast of Italian beurocracy is much tamer and more apporachable than the pedantic, anal retentive Aussie legislation. And permits to purchase that we have in Victoria, what the hell is that about? you are supposed to apply for a gun before you can buy it, each and every single one. I had forgotten how annyoing that was... | |||
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All these gun laws and registration are so useless and point less ..the only people that dont realise this are out polliticians....just look at all the arms comming in to the country through the back door!!!! however i still very strongly belive that in my life time i will see gun owner ship for private citizens a thing of the past regards Daniel | |||
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So far (fingers crossed) I really haven't had much trouble doing what I want. Little Johnny Howard did steal one from me but bought me a better one. The laws are a nuisance and meant to make it hard. Mostly they are useless it what they purport to prevent. Permits to buy are silly because you get what you want anyway eventually. Registration is a waste of police time and resources. Licensing of individuals is probably a good thing as is some training before getting one. Mostly just a formality. Banning pump actions, semi automatics and large calibre pistols was stupid and ridiculous. I think we should NOT assume firearms ownership is doomed in the long term and instead assume we will do what is necessary and continue the fight to win it. A very encouraging sign is the massive dis-belief of the man in the street that more and more restrictive firearms laws will work. We need to convince the politicians and their public service masters of that fact. | |||
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Guys, I'm a knife maker in the United States. On our web site we have plans for the construction of computer controlled molten salt pots for the heat treating of blades. We use a mixture of sodium and calcium chloride for the high temp pots (2100F or so) and blueing salts for the low temp pots (seldom over 600F or so) Recently got a note from an Aussie knife maker who is looking for a different material for the low temp pots because blueing salts are not available to him. They are controlled to licensed firearms manufacturors only. There are lots of sources for oxidizers other than blueing salts ... sounds a bit invasive to me! Sure sounds as if the regulation writers are thorough though :<( Mike -------------- DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ... Knifemaker, http://www.mstarling.com | |||
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Very much depends on the individual point of view. Our gunlaws haven't affected me personally but it has cost me many thousands of dollars in permits, security and trading over to those types that the government feels that I can have. I currently have 163 rifles, 9 handguns and 6 shotguns, all registered on my licence. A citizen is, or is not, a responsible person to be permitted to own a firearm. If he is responsible, then he should be able to own what the likes. If not responsible, then you simply don't get one. In Australia, you are a responsible person to own a semi-auto if you are in the army and are sent to war zones to die for your country. Once you leave the army, you are no longer a reasponsible person and are restricted to bolt actions or single shots like the rest of us. Overall, like Canada, I don't see the fall in crime statistics like murder or assult because of the gun laws. Seems that it is socially acceptable by our politians to be stabbed to death but not to be shot. Similarly robbed at knife point but not at gunpoint. The government's own figures show that major crimes like murder (3.8%), armed robbery (18%) and serious assult (23%)have all steadily risen despite having now spent $1.6b on gun buy-back, pistol buy-backs and licencing & registration. Seems they can't get the true message, No society in the world can ever legislate against stupidity nor criminal intent !  Hold still varmint; while I plugs yer! If'n I miss, our band of 45/70 brothers, will fill yer full of lead! | |||
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There is a case for the right to stack the odds in your favour anyway you want as soon as you are breathing air on this planet- called the laws of nature. Whether humans in large groups decide to make things more livable or moral by restricting one another's behaviour is the question-and it comes down to the people get what the people earn. As to licensing, registration etc it is all part the same thing, control, and ends up the same way- further restriction. NZ has better laws than us at the moment but has I noticed some battles coming up. The average NZ hunter is a bad as us where we say "Its okay we still have some guns left" excpet the NZ guy says "We still have more guns than Australia" Both groups are equally blase and dangerously lazy about their position. Karl | |||
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Yes, you are very wrong. I will not waste any further time on debating this issue with someone as ignorant as you. The basis of the US Constitution is the Federalist Papers. They are freely availble in the Internet. #46 is particularly germane. Educate yourself, and we may yet be able to communicate. | |||
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Thank you for the elequently stated explanation for our Canadian friend. With regards to your statement "It was viewed as a God Given Right to protect yourself and your family from the tyranny of government and other unfriendlies.", to many of us, it still IS! An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject. Neither a forthright government, or an honest individual has anything to fear from an armed citizen. This concept is lost on many. It is unfortunately, NOT lost on those who would aspire to subjugate us. To those who accept totalitarian restrictions on their God given rights, I say this: You neither experience - or deserve liberty. Rant off. Regards - GCF "Sometimes you make eight - Sometimes you hit dirt" | |||
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Muzza Have been told there are new NZ gun laws drafted similar to Aust and just waiting for an incident to bring them in, this may or maynot be true as rumours are always going around. To GCF "To those who accept totalitarian restrictions on their God given rights, I say this: You neither experience - or deserve liberty." I take offence at that statement, there are more of them and they have a lot more guns than I do, so I would end up dead or in gaol(thats jail to you) and the situation would not change. Gun owners are a minority in Australia. | |||
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416SW - As a member of the organisation- New Zealand Mountain Safety Council -contracted to the New Zealand Police to do testing of new firearms licence applicants I am reasonably well informed on what new law changes may be under consideration . At this stage there are no changes proposed that I am aware of , just discussions between the relevant parties . I can , however , state that a recent delegation of NZ Police Firearms policy people who attended an Australian conference on Firearms Laws left after the first morning because there was no relevant issues to New Zealands situation . Australian lawmakers are on a differant planet to ours when it comes to firearms related issues . I dont beleive NZ gunlaws are "bad" at all , but I have no delusions that as time moves on and our population becomes more urbanised we will see more pressure on firearms ownership . Hopefully not to the extent that the Aussies now how , but who knows what the future holds . ________________________ Old enough to know better | |||
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To Mickey 1 and especially to HP Shooter (who called me ignorant)...have you ever bothered to look up the wording of the second amendment your own constitution??? The wording is as follows: A well regulated militia COMMA being necessary to the security of a free state COMMA the right of the people to keep and bear arms COMMA shall not be infringed. There is no "separate sentance". The wording (as it's all in ONE SENTENCE) is clearly refering to - the guns being needed in a "well regulated militia". HP Shooter - it's supposed to be YOUR constitution (I'm Canadian...it's not mine) and yet you appear to be the one who is ignorant of the wording of your own constitution. The point of my writing was to better understand how bad things actually are for shooters in Australia and New Zealand. ACTUALLY - not "legally". In some States within the US it's still "legally" against the law to have your wife perform oral sex on you - but, as far as I know it's not "actually" cramping anyone's style in the bedroom. I keep reading untruths in American gun magazines about how bad it's supposed to be up here in Canada when it comes to firearms. Most of what they write about Canada is just plain WRONG! Just a few months ago a major gun mag wrote about handguns being "illegal" in Canada! What a crock that is! I owned my first at 19 and used it thousands of times (legally) since then! Tell that to my buddy who shoots IPSC competitions - he goes through more than 10,000 rounds per year with his many handguns! My purpose wasn't to debate the US constitution - I wanted to hear - from actual Australians and New Zealanders - not American gunwriters - how things ACTUALLY are in their resective countries when it comes to owning guns and hunting with them. That's all I wanted to know. To those who replied and gave me their opinions on that topic - thanks! I'd like to hear even more. To anyone calling me "ignorant" while not having a clue about their own constitution - well, I'll be polite (I'm a Canadian) - why don't you learn a bit more before you call others names? See, I was nice. | |||
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416SW - My comments were not intended maliciously, or to offend personally. They were intended to jog the brains of those who passivly accept totalitarian affronts on personal rights & liberties. Nor are they pointed specifically at you, and the rest of our friends down under. There are plenty of Americans that sit back & accept what ever comes down the pike as "inevitable", or (gag) "sensible". Especially, if they do not see these infringements as personally threatening. There are many American gun owners that accept controls on semi-automatic pistols, rifles, & shotguns, as acceptable - because they have no personal interest in these types of weapons. They believe (naively) that if they give in on the "evil" weapon issue, that their trap gun, single shot rifle, revolver, etc., will be left alone. I am not suggesting (not my place) that anyone resort to extreme measures that will land them in jail, or six feet under. In this country through political grass roots effort, we have successfully beaten back a number of draconian personal rights infringement regulations, & anti-gun laws. Much to the chagrin of the liberal elite. I really know very little of your country's legal system - or legislative structure, but it seems to me that collectivly, you Australian (& NZ) shooters would have a voice. We libertarians (in this country, at least) wish you well, & support your efforts. Regards - GCF "Sometimes you make eight - Sometimes you hit dirt" | |||
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BC Brian , I was on a hunting trip when it was announced that (Liberal)John Howard had won our second last Federal election . My friends and I thought it was cause for celebration as the previous Labor government weren't exactly firearm friendly . Little did we know what the little prick had in store ! I had been a Liberal voter up until that point . I still don't vote Labor as my opinion on them hasn't changed but I think it unlikely that I will ever vote Liberal again . We have independant alternatives . I haven't personally lost any firearms in either of the buybacks . I'm not a semi auto fan and had sold my pump shotgun only weeks before Martin Bryant went mad at Port Arthur .I feel for those that have lost favourite guns and family heirlooms though . There were a couple of parts of the new legislation that I agreed with . Semi auto military style firearms were banned . Realistically (unless you were keen to emulate Bryant) there was practically no genuine need for that style of weapon that I can think of . West Australian law had precluded ownership of that style of weapon anyway . Safe storage requirements were introduced and are a good idea . Ownership of pump shotguns (not rifles) and semi auto .22's was made near impossible for non farmers . Ridiculous in my opinion . Current laws are more of a bloody inconvenience than anything else as far as I am concerned . It's more the intent of our legislators that worries me . Firearm owners in Australia don't have the political clout to change the course of an election . I believe that ultimately the tree huggers will get their way and we won't be permitted to own anything more lethal than a pointy stick . There will be a lot of firearms reported "lost" when that legislation goes thru .  The hunting imperative was part of every man's soul; some denied or suppressed it, others diverted it into less blatantly violent avenues of expression, wielding clubs on the golf course or racquets on the court, substituting a little white ball for the prey of flesh and blood. Wilbur Smith | |||
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Sir - That may well be true, & I'll take your word on it, but you sure did appear to be taking a couple of swipes at our constitutional (God Given) right to bear arms. Realistically, although I see no reason for rudeness, you might just as well expect American libertarians to take it personally, if you choose to negativly comment - directly or indirectly, on a subject of such importance to us. Regards - GCF "Sometimes you make eight - Sometimes you hit dirt" | |||
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I have watched this Canada vs US discussion and have to ask - who wrote the US Constitution ? We keep reading about this God-given right to bear arms . Did God write your Constitution ? Not intended as a wind-up , I just need to know who the author really was . ________________________ Old enough to know better | |||
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If you can use a computer to find this forum, you can also use it to find all the historical documentation explaining why our Constitution is written as it is, right from the authors themselves. | |||
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I know fully well what my nation's Constitution says. And I know what it means. I also know very well that ill-educated attempts (like yours) to apply modern rules of grammar, sentence construction, and diction to a text written in the 1780's leads to the kind of mistaken interpretations that you obviously have. Militia doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. Regulated definitely doesn't mean what you think it means. And on it goes. Please, stop making a fool of yourself pretending that you understand what the Second Amendment of the US Constitution means. | |||
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In terms of gun ownership and gun use ANY gun law is bad news and for a simple reason. The law does not work and therefore it is tightened or another law is introduced. The very large majority of gun owners, dog owners, jet ski riders etc and etc favour gov't intervention except within their own area of interest. Next time as a gun owner you agree with some sort of controls put forward by the media or gov't in area that is not guns, just remember that is what the rest of the population is doing when it comes to gun control. BC Brian I fit the profile you mentioned as being someone who thinks any gun law leads us to being an unarmed community. I do not consider any gun law as being reasonable. Mike | |||
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Mike Should a mentally unstable person who has made homicidal comments be allowed access to firearms and ammunition? | |||
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Nitro, That is not a gun law issue as I assume such person would be put in an institution. But if he does not become the property of an institution then I would have no laws restricting him buying a gun. You are assuming that if he has homicidal tendencies then he can/will only carry out them out with a gun. Maybe if he is allowed to buy the gun he shoots his neighbour. Maybe if we frustrate him by trying to prevent him buying the gun he takes his car down the road at 80 mph at school closing time and runs it up on to the footpath. Your scenario in fact illustrates why we are so fucking over regulated and getting worse by the day because of these attempts to regulate against every possibility. Mike | |||
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Ahh, a little tongue in cheek humor. You had me going for a minute. ;=] I'm pretty sure that YOU get it, but I'll run this down, for the benefit of those who don't quite. The founders of our nation were religious people, who believed in God. They believed that the Creator bestowed certain inalienable rights upon ALL human beings. They felt no government should have the power to infringe upon these natural (God Given) rights. So..., to sum it up: The words were written by the framers, but inspired by their belief in God. I understand that concept does not sit well with everyone. Certainly not politically correct in many circles. But consider this: The Framers of our Constitution believed, as we still do today, that these "God Given" rights belong to us all. In our nation, and in YOURS. Think about it. Regards - GCF "Sometimes you make eight - Sometimes you hit dirt" | |||
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Mike , Tell the (38?) victims of the Port Arthur tragedy and their families that there should be no laws to prevent the mentally unstable from owning a firearm . I think they could attest to the fact that Martin Bryant , despite a history of mental health problems , wasn't the "property of an institution". You have more faith in the Australian mental health system than anyone I've previously heard speak on the subject . My wife is secretary of the local pistol club and I can tell you for a fact that they regularly withold support for firearms applications from potential members that have a few roos loose in the top paddock .  I for one am glad you aren't signing off on those applications .The hunting imperative was part of every man's soul; some denied or suppressed it, others diverted it into less blatantly violent avenues of expression, wielding clubs on the golf course or racquets on the court, substituting a little white ball for the prey of flesh and blood. Wilbur Smith | |||
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Mike You not feeling a little bit paranoid again are you? Take a pill. | |||
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One of the problems with advocating gun control of the person with a screw loose is you side with the anti gunners that anyone could develop a loose screw in the future and therefore no one should have guns. Now if you talk about the same person being banned from owning or driving a car and host of other things, not just guns, then that at least keeps the debate on a line where we have a chance. Nitro Back in the mid 1970s when the shooters licence was introduced in NSW following the Father's Day massacre, and that was a licence that was a pure formality, many other shooters accused me of being paranoid because I advocated this was only the start. Mike | |||
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Exactly in fact we had this discussion a year or two ago and Nitrox and co ended up bailing out.  If a released criminal or nutter is banned from guns what the hell is he doing- Owning a car that can do 200kmhr? Owning powertools. Buying and drinking alcohol.(big one) Having kids. Going back home to his own kids. Having a wife. Owning kitchen knives. Driving trucks near schools. Operating heavy machinery Being able to walk down the mall when school is out? Having a baseball bat. Owning pit bull terriers. If only guns should go you are saying the gun is evil or more tempting for him to commit a crime with, which is why the antis say we should be rid of all guns. If you say he should be banned from everything in the list- that means a life sentence for any crime or mental disorder that removes guns from possession. That's tough! And the next problem is how to prevent offenders or nutters who have not offended yet. Do we ban all guns from everyone to be safe? "Don't want another port arthur"  Maybe since we know guns aren't the problem we should ban ourselves from everything? Karl. | |||
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Look at the bun fight Peter Beatty is in;control beer outlets in Brisbane to kurb night time drunkeness! Great Idea, I support it strongly, but how many votes count in the general community particularly amoung the piss pots? The gun issue affected a few and was passed; the booze issue will fail because a lot more people drink! Moral: politians stand up for anything they think people will fall for! Hold still varmint; while I plugs yer! If'n I miss, our band of 45/70 brothers, will fill yer full of lead! | |||
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OK GCF I accept what you say. I participated in the protest march and as I don't have the gift of the gab, I don't think there is much else I can do. I'm a member of the 2 biggest firearm owners associations in Australia and of 2 clubs. Also by the way a life member of your NRA, I hope you are. Bushchook I may be remembering wrong but I thought Martin Bryant didn't own any firearms, but had in fact murder his next door neighbours and stolen their firearms. | |||
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Maybe a little clarity here. I had heard that Bryant bought one of the pistols from a Policeman, illegally. Was this true? It might have been that the pistol was sold illegally by the Copper and stolen by Bryant. Any truth to either? | |||
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Karl What you and Mike fail to understand is many of us just bait you to get you going. But continuing usually becomes so boring and mundane that it is better just to ignore you, which to a couple of mentally unstable guys looking for attention is probably the worst treatment. Mike used to claim he was involved in "fighting for the rights of shooters". This really worries me as I think him (and you) representing shooters would do far more harm to the pro-firearms cause in the eyes of politicians than if he didn't get involved at all. Remember to keep taking your pills. Beat up any teenagers at the nightclub lately? | |||
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[/QUOTE] Karl What you and Mike fail to understand is many of us just bait you to get you going. But continuing usually becomes so boring and mundane that it is better just to ignore you, which to a couple of mentally unstable guys looking for attention is probably the worst treatment. Mike used to claim he was involved in "fighting for the rights of shooters". This really worries me as I think him (and you) representing shooters would do far more harm to the pro-firearms cause in the eyes of politicians than if he didn't get involved at all. Remember to keep taking your pills.[/QUOTE] ROFLMAO  Bugger, now the truth is out! Hold still varmint; while I plugs yer! If'n I miss, our band of 45/70 brothers, will fill yer full of lead! | |||
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Nitro, Do you know Denis Tobler or Dave Billinghurst at Herrons security. Mike | |||
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Deleted. | |||
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Well the reason I appeared was the system sends an email that a response has been made to the thread. Mike | |||
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