I was reading this little part of your forum.

"For Those Of Us Who Lucky Enough To Hunt Down Under - One Day I Hope To Join You".

So I thought I would introduce you guys to a new site in New Zealand
Wild Hunts

If you guys want some REAL info on hunting the wild (not to many safari parts mentioned on this site) check it out. Im sure the boys there would be happy to answer your questions.

There is a forum section. Its a pretty new site.

Cheers.

Already a member :thumbYip everyone on this site shoots there animals in little paddocks,we are all to fat and lazy to hunt wild animals.

Nice! The first time I researched a DIY trip for tahr and chammies was, oh, 6 years ago or some such. I feel an itch coming up, let's see what's on the calendar for next April/May...

Frans

I will be visisting NZ, Auckland area the first three weeks of August together with three friend to do some REAL hunting.
Would very much appreciate some good tips. We are no trophy hunters in the common sense of the word; we value the hunt more than the trophy!!

i have been on for a while and i like the video clips

it cracks me up reading some of the hunt's guys on here do over here they wouldn't have a clue it they were dropped off into the "bush" for a proper hunt kiwi style as apposed to this safari/out fitter style hunt's

quote:

Originally posted by MADNESS:
it cracks me up reading some of the hunt's guys on here do over here they wouldn't have a clue it they were dropped off into the "bush" for a proper hunt kiwi style as apposed to this safari/out fitter style hunt's

ah so refreshing to read your words mate,keep them coming...there are a few of us on here that do actually hunt the way a lot of you blokes do too but there are many others that are happy to play the other game also.

Madness, would love for you to come cold to Pa wood lots and wonder around looking for a good gobbler or whitetail. You know we do HUNT turkeys and it ain't easy hunting and I don't mean physicial I mean it takes some smarts to outwit a sly old Penns woods gobbler.

just saying it how i see it gryphon 1

i would love to come to the states one day [b]die ou jagter[b] and smoke over a few white tail and maybe a muley and an elk but from over here it hard to see what all the fuss about this turkey hunting is all about.
here if we want turkeys we just go out at night with a base ball bat or golf club and king hit them off the fence post's our birds are as thick as and take no skill what so ever to hunt even in the day light they are a pice of cake to kill


i took this photo in march to show a guy from the states on another forum some kiwi turkeys
sorry its so out of focus the camera was set to macro

Madness, I tried to find interest enough here to start a turkey board but alas not enough. I understand your opinion about turkey as I just shot one last week down there. It was hard finding a good bearded bird as all I saw had about 2 or 3" beards and I don't think there is a limb hanger in NZ (spurs long enough to hang the bird from a tree lime) which are the measureing items re a trophy gobbler. Oh by the way if do get over here to Penns woods and take a Mulie the world would be at your feet. I know it is geography just like seeing a Kiwi (bird) on the north island.

Gidday Guys,

Madness,

Might I suggest that if you or I were droppped in to the middle of Alaska, Africa or Mongolia we might have the same issues.

It only makes sense to go with someone who has the local knowledge and knows how the local game behave.

I take it you have hunted the West Coast of the South Island. It is said that the forests of Oregon are just the same so why don't you pop over there and hook into those beautiful blacktail deer there. It should be a piece of piss for someone as expeienced as you. Never mind that very experienced local hunters find them quite a challenge.

Just a thought but maybe a little local help would come in handy so if you have no friends willing to help you a paid guide might come in handy.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

yes you are right i have hunted a few times in south westland and are keen to hunt the places you menchined over seas bar africa which does nothing for me
i like a lot of kiwis have the do it yourself blood and have never and would never use a guide unless it was the only was to hunt a speices.
one day i hope to hunt deer in the US and Alaska and will be more than happy to do it like we do here.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MADNESS:

i like a lot of kiwis have the do it yourself blood and have never and would never use a guide unless it was the only was to hunt a speices.
QUOTE]

Yeah and real men don't eat quiche either !
Not everyone has the spare time or inclination to fly thousands of kilometres for a trip that may not yield a trophy sighting . Also not everyone wants to cart all the gear required to camp out and D.I.Y. halfway around the World .
Perhaps we could drop you in Marble Bar in January with a 4WD and a compass and tell you to come back in 3 days with a bull camel and a dingo ? You might get lucky . Then again you might not come back at all . It's a little different to your backyard . Just like NZ is a little different to mine .

i think hamish and bushchook should take a deep breath and may want to re read the first post in this thread it was about "real" hunting and not safari type hunting the point i'm making is reading some of the story s on here re hunting in NZ they are nothing more thatr check book hunting on propertys that have been stocked with animals for these guys to shoot it isnt even close to "real" hunting

Madness ,
I'm not into shooting livestock and won't defend that type of hunt . You should not make the assumption however that all guided hunts or safaris are like that . They aren't . There are still plenty of fair chase operators around . Maybe not so many in NZ as there were or perhaps just more of the kind that you mention than in years gone by ?
I (and others here) have taken fair chase guided hunts and found your post somewhat offensive . This is the internet . We can only read what has been written , not what was on your mind .If you don't want to get bitten then you may need to be more concise in future .

like i said maybe you should have read the openning post as it was refering to "real" hunting

quote:

Perhaps we could drop you in Marble Bar in January with a 4WD and a compass and tell you to come back in 3 days with a bull camel and a dingo ? You might get lucky . Then again you might not come back at all . It's a little different to your backyard . Just like NZ is a little different to mine .

Perforate porkers

Well i dont even know the bloke (madness)but i have been reading his ongoing resume for a long time now on NZ`s forums and i beg to differ of your opinion of the bloke.I would back him to do ok wherever!

All the guys that have posted a report here about hunting N.Z have enjoyed THEIR trip,which to me is the most important thing.

We all own firearms and kill animals for sport and vote,we must stick together to fight those that will this away from us.

Gidday Madness,

Sorry mate I didn't mean to give offence.

I don't hunt behind fences and I am not going to do it any time soon.

The people who do select domestic stock and pay big bucks to have them led into the pen to have them shot are keeping quite a few people are employed and making good money for the country. They are not Hunters, they are tourists who get to slaughter farm animals.

They don't affect me because they are not killing the animals we hunt.

In saying that if we were dropped into a different environment hunting animals that were totally new to us we may well get lucky. The chances are we would dip out.

Now if I had saved up for a once in a lifetime hunt and knew one of the locals it would make sense to draw on this friends knowledge and experience to save wasting the only oportunity I have.

If I knew no one I would employ a pro also from the safety aspect. How many visiting outdoorsmen have been killed here this year, 5 or 6? They were not nimrods. They all were all experienced in their home enviroments but because they were somewhere new they were out of their depth on what we consider simple tramps.

Our environment is a little different from a desert or the prairie or a continental mountain system. The rules are different. Here we follow a river down stream and it will lead us to safety. Do that in the Rockies or the middle of Arnheimland and you could find out that far from leading you to safety it could be puting you deeper in the shit.

That was what I was getting at not having a go at you.

I don't want to pay for a farmed animal to be led in front of me when I get the chanceto hunt overseas. I do want a representative trophy that will remind me of a challenging hunt which when I look at it in my dotage will bring back good memories of times I won't have again.

I hope you don't think I am judging or having a go, just puting another idea out there.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

nar not at all hamish no offence taken

it would take a hell of a lot to offend me

but not sure what point bushchook was trying to make i eat quiche it's yum

hunting in another country does have a lot of problems that you wouldn't have in your own country there is no douting that.

for me it is a greater sence of achevement to do it on my own,
but like i said above in some cases you may not have a choice for some species and have to use a guild now and then.

i am looking at going to oz to hunt sambar and will be doing this with help from a local over there but i'm not interested in being guilded to do it.
chital are a bit differant i'm not aware of any where you can just rock up and shoot them so if i wanted to shoot one i would have to use a guild to get access to a property that holds them

over here we don't have that problem there isn't a species of deer, thar, chammy, pigs or goats that can't be hunted on public land

it is a matter of each to there own and what you are happy with

i myself wouldn't get any satisfaction out of just pulling the trigger and signing a check and getting someone else to do all the work that just the way i am

I think theres a bit more history to the hunting scene in NZ that needs to be explained.

With the exception of the Paradise duck and Pukako (Ausi Swamp Hen) all our game are introduces.

Its only the introduced water fowl that have any sort of offical "game management" and many argue that they are not always managed for the bnefit of the hunters.

All other introduced species are classified under legislation as "noxious pests" so anyone can hunt/shoot them using practically any means.

There has been a number of "safari" style private game parks established over the past 20 years catering for "rich overseas tourists"

Some would say they dont really impact out the traditional Kiwi hunter, but I believe they do have quite an impact.

The Safari parks have put a commercial value on wild game and this has a trickle down affect. More and more private land owners are now denying access for the average Kiwi hunter to "free" hunt on private land as they can now sell hunting rights (of which the legality is questionable, but no ones been willing to challenge in law yet)

Some of these safari parks even do live capture on public land to stock their parks (I understand individual trophy Thar have been captured on public land and put behind the fence for particluar clients)

So.. there the issue of overseas hunters paying big money to shoot our game, behind the Wire hunting and guides are contencous issue for many kiwi hunters.

Just a bit of background that may help explain some of the expressions on this thread.

Cheers

Grant

quote:

Some of these safari parks even do live capture on public land to stock their parks (I understand individual trophy Thar have been captured on public land and put behind the fence for particluar clients)

Ah yes its true and dosent that give you the drizzlin` shits eh!

some good points NZV

yip it sure does SUCK

I probably should know better than to enter a debate on the issue of game estates and some of the precieved guiding issues that arise from them.
BUT i'm a sucker for a touch of brow beating and as a hunter and guide i have to comment on a couple of tiny mistruths. The first is that i know of no guiding operation let alone helicopter operation that would every let a client shoot from the machine! hell thats just plan dangerous. secondly you are correct to assume that guides are in business and how they choose to meet the expectations of the clients is up to the guide. And here i want to make the point that as a guide you have a choice of who you except as a client and as such make the call as to how the hunt will be run.
Another very good point that is touch apon that i'll add alittle weight to is that of access. That is the guides ,or at least this guides primary marketing tool. I run all my hunts on private land where i have access agreements with the landowners. I could not run my operation if i were to do this on Dept of Conservation land as the expectations of my clients could not be meet. I have to be able to put animals in front of hunters and quality animals. If you want big wild black fallow I have them..on private land ..no fences same with Tahr, chamois and Reds. If i have a client wanting a large 350 inch Stag I'll find them one behind the wire, i'd be a fool not to. I have to live with that decision just as my client has to live with there decision.
Our whole hunting scene in NZ is very unique when you begin,that's if you want to, compare it with other hunting destinations.
Yes Tahr and Chamois are captured from public lands and used to stock game estates, i wouldn't be in a hurry to point the finger at the estate owners but would support any move to have DoC taken to task for allowing this to happen. And that is the place for most of the quipples to be answered, its no secret as to why it happens but who allows it to happen. As it stands at the moment i think you'll be pleased to know that most of the game estates have sustainable breeding populations of animals to draw from. Its simply to expensive to continuely glean them from public land.
well that should spark another round of debate, you'll excuse me if I put on the body armour and
duck for cover, may not enter the debate again. Better to stir sometimes. Then again I may. I've never been one to step away from healthy debate.
I change my mind.

Good on you for having the balls to front up,there are a few guides/outfitters that post here.

Everyone wants something different from a hunt/trip and some people have more money than time.

DOC are killing our game animals everyday,soon game parks maybe the only place animals like Tahr and Chamois can be hunted.

Welcome to AR highlander.

highlander i don't have any grip about what you have posted or do for that matter so no need to duck for cover.

you are the one doing all the work,
for your clients to pull the trigger and take all the glory and look like the big hunter.

i don't have a problem with people doing such a hunt but don't think they should go around gloating about it when all they have done is pull the trigger and sign the check it's just antler collecting at the end of the day.

like i said before each to there own i guess

quote:

The first is that i know of no guiding operation let alone helicopter operation that would every let a client shoot from the machine! hell thats just plan dangerous.

Nah mate it does go on and i`m not saying you have your head in the sand but an owner of one of the biggest US hunting forums told me personally that he took his two chamois straight out of the door of a chopper.....signed the cheque and 2 chamois later he was in the "lodge" where all the top hunters gather.

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:
he took his two chamois straight out of the door of a chopper.....signed the cheque and 2 chamois later he was in the "lodge" where all the top hunters gather.

Well I guess you can think what you like about the comment of where all the top hunters gather.

Madness have you ever considered that to shoot from a helicopter might just be as big a part of the hunt to these hunters? Where else in the world can you do this, Now forget whethers it's a Tahr, chamois, rabbit of wallaby, would you like the chance to shot from a machine? Yes or No?

It is legal is it not.These are introduced pest.
Just because you see it differently ! what's that matter and to who should it matter.

Its the chicken and egg thing guys, and as much as we all have our ethics as long as its legal to do' what you say they are doing' then we grin and bare it.
Law and justice are different things.

I don't understand Madness's argument that the guide does all the work for a paying client. Does a guide carry the client on his back so that the client doesn't have to walk up the mountain? Does the guide keep an umbrella over his client's head so that the client doesn't get wet? Does the guide pull the trigger for the client?

Guides are popular because they take care of logistical issues that foreigners simply don't have the knowledge or ability to take care of themselves. Who wants to fly 10,000 miles to the South Island of New Zealand then spend half of the time there organizing food and shelter? Guides can take care of that stuff for you, which will give you more time to hunt.

The disdain that many New Zealanders have for guided hunting is comical. There is a sense of entitlement in this country that makes some hunters believe that they have the right to hunt on private land (and to do it for free) and that guides are threatening that right. That's a BS attitude to have. Landowners put their time, muscle, and money into their land...why shouldn't they be able to make some extra money on the side by charging for hunting access?

quote:

Originally posted by cutman:
I don't understand Madness's argument that the guide does all the work for a paying client. Does a guide carry the client on his back so that the client doesn't have to walk up the mountain? Does the guide keep an umbrella over his client's head so that the client doesn't get wet? Does the guide pull the trigger for the client?

I bet this does happen sometimes

Very good points there,its not hard to get access to private for free,but guys need to do as they are told/asked.

quote:

I bet this does happen sometimes

If a guide is doing all the carrying, umbrella holding, and shooting, he deserves all the money he can get!

quote:

Does the guide pull the trigger for the client?

well yes in some cases it certainly has been done....with a trophy fee of maybe a thousand bucks and more and the client misses or wounds an animal ? well there is no trophy fee to be made as an extra so as the client fires guides have often before "given him one" also and amongst the back slapping the guide knows that he is the one that actually killed the animal...i personally know a fella here that fires with his client..makes sense dosent it. Everyones happy...though what would rankle me is that the wealthy clients with their big tipping ideals of happiness can be taken to where the better class of animal is "known" to be lurking whereas the struggling poor man gets the shit end of the stick in many cases...makes sense dosent it...a fella i know has quality expensive knives,bino`s, guns,and free hunting trips as tips for animals he has produced for the wealthy men and just coincidently those same men have all got gold class stuff...many pics i see of the working classs blokes dont seem to have the same quality animals...hmmm!

I know that if i was being guided in places where it is law to have a guide ie: Alaska (as an alien) i would be terribly pissed off if my guide shot my bear for me..... there has been a long thread about this often happening in such places on more than one forum...ok it might be a smart thing for the client and the guide especially if the guides wtnesses some poor marksman ship over the bench prior to hunting etc.But a good hunter/rifleman with the score on the board certainly wont want someone elses bullet in their game...maybe if a bear or other bitey was mauling you it would be diff of course ...but firing as you do? get real!

I would be very pissed off if the guide fired before/same time as me,this should be talked about before the hunt starts,but hunting dangerous is a lot different,i have been watching a lot of Cape buffalo hunting video's and i can't believe how many rounds these animals can take and keep running and these are well placed shots.

quote:

Originally posted by highlander:
Madness have you ever considered that to shoot from a helicopter might just be as big a part of the hunt to these hunters? Where else in the world can you do this, Now forget whethers it's a Tahr, chamois, rabbit of wallaby, would you like the chance to shot from a machine? Yes or No?

i have done a bit of chopper time and yes it is a great buzz but i would never count a head as a trophy from a machine it's just a set of antlers and means very little

quote:

Originally posted by cutman:
I don't understand Madness's argument that the guide does all the work for a paying client.

i'll try and keep it simple for you then

the guilde does all the ground work locating the animal the client pulls the trigger then the guilde does all the cape work and getting it back to the wagon

don't try and tell me that the hunt is a hard walk either just have a look at highlanders web site hardly hard country to get around in and that is what his clients like if it was to hard they wouldn't cope



this thread is about "real hunting" if you want to talk shit about guilded / safary type hunting maybe you should start a thread about it

good onya Madness give it right back mate

quote:

this thread is about "real hunting" if you want to talk shit about guilded / safary type hunting maybe you should start a thread about it

"Real hunting" and "New Zealand" don't always go together. You have no native game, few game laws, no conservation to speak of, and you hunt from 4 wheelers, helicopters, trucks, and whatever else you can find to minimize the work you have to do. Want to shoot ducks on a baited pond? Come to New Zealand! Want to spotlight a deer? Come to New Zealand! Want to kill a bunch of animals just because it's fun? Come to New Zealand!

I'm shocked by how many "hunters" here don't eat or use what they kill. I don't have a problem with people who go culling and leave the animals, but I do have a problem with cullers who call themselves hunters. I recently attended a local "hunting" club meeting on the North Island, and the whole meeting consisted of a video of goats, rabbits, and deer getting their heads blown off. Every time a slow motion replay was shown, the whole audience would cheer. That shows an extreme lack of respect for the animal, which I believe a real hunter does not do. Many people have confused killing animals with hunting, and they aren't the same.

You need to get off your high horse, Madness. "Real hunting" is in the eye of the beholder.

quote:

Originally posted by cutman:
"Real hunting" and "New Zealand" don't always go together. You have no native game, few game laws, no conservation to speak of, and you hunt from 4 wheelers, helicopters, trucks, and whatever else you can find to minimize the work you have to do. Want to shoot ducks on a baited pond? Come to New Zealand! Want to spotlight a deer? Come to New Zealand! Want to kill a bunch of animals just because it's fun? Come to New Zealand!

it would be good if you could make a point cuz at the moment you don't realy have one
it seem's you know fuck all about hunting in NZ cutman after making your statement above
sure it does go on but you are talking about the minority of hunters

if you chose to hunt behind the wire or shoot a stocked property and call it real hunting thats up to you

Sorry but a near wet myself
That is the funnest thing i have read on the net yet.

Yes Cutman,i know what you are saying,things are different down here alright.

We have no predator here to keep animals numbers in check,so some animals need to be culled.

Yes some aniamls are not eaten,well by me or anyone i know,these would be cats,magpies,pooks,feral geese,possums,95% of goats shot,rabbits,hares these animals are pests.

Yes you may see it as a waste and/or blood lust but it has to be done and you get hard to it over time.

Just about all big game animals in New Zealand that dont have an ear tag are classed as a pest and DOC will shoot them on sight.

I know you have done some goat culling,every goat you shot,is one more sheep the farmer can run.

I think all your comments are correct,it does happen here,but its legal,its just how things are here.