If you can't understand my point then the problem is with your reading comprehension. I'll try to simplify it for you:

1) Not all guided hunting is the same.
2) Not all unguided hunting is the same.

You have equated guided vs. unguided hunting as "unreal" vs. "real," and I disagree with you. Hunting with a guide does not necessarily mean that the client is sitting behind a fence waiting for a tame red stag to walk out of his pen. Guides can take clients on fair chase hunts into large, private blocks of land that are just as challenging as anything you would do on public land.

Conversely, hunting without a guide does not necessarily make the hunt more "real." As I said above (and you quoted), New Zealanders can bait, spotlight, use helicopters, and do pretty much anything else that you can think of. Now, would you consider using those methods "real" hunting if a guide was not involved?

I've never used a guide before, but I plan to if I'm still in New Zealand next year. I would like to hunt tahr with an expert so that I don't get myself killed in the Southern Alps. Hopefully I will learn enough from the experience to be able to hunt without a guide in the future, but until then I'm not taking any chances. Does that mean I'm not a "real" hunter?

quote:

Originally posted by cutman:
1) Not all guided hunting is the same.
2) Not all unguided hunting is the same.

this is correct

quote:

Originally posted by cutman:
spotlight, use helicopters, and do pretty much anything else that you can think of. Now, would you consider using those methods "real" hunting if a guide was not involved?

no i don't condisder spot lighting or shooting from a chopper "real hunting" it's nothing more that meat collecting

i don't see how you will kill yourself if you hunt the southern alps with out a guide either shit loads of people do it and very few die from it i think you will find more people are kill on the road driving to there hunt than die on the hill

But then - to follow your own logic on this one ( and I have just been watching from the sidelines ) - you wont take your motor vehicle on a "real" hunt cos it would be against the ideals that you have set yourself for "real" hunting .Nor would you use a rifle - its a pointy stick and a sharp rock for real men .

Do you see the idiocy of your logic in following this train of thought yet ?

I venture to suggest that you have fallen for the so-far unexplained hatred of New Zealand style hunting exhibited by a couple of disgruntled Aussies with personal agendas and an axe to grind.

Can someone please post a hunting story with some pictures to remind us what this forum is actually about ????? I would but I dont do real hunting anymore , apparently.....

Good-day, Muzza, me mate

I like to see you are still around the forum.

just lurking mate - some one called me lurker elsewhere on here so I just pop up now and then so'es people dont forget me entirley - even if they really want to

Good

quote:

Originally posted by muzza:
But then - to follow your own logic on this one ( and I have just been watching from the sidelines ) - you wont take your motor vehicle on a "real" hunt cos it would be against the ideals that you have set yourself for "real" hunting .Nor would you use a rifle - its a pointy stick and a sharp rock for real men .

what the fuck how do you come up with that

quote:

Originally posted by muzza:
Can someone please post a hunting story with some pictures to remind us what this forum is actually about ?????

i did
it was of a sika hunt i did 4 week's ago

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5621043/m/188108984
not a guilde, chopper, quad, spotlight or high horse in site

quote:

Originally posted by muzza:
I venture to suggest that you have fallen for the so-far unexplained hatred of New Zealand style hunting exhibited by a couple of disgruntled Aussies with personal agendas and an axe to grind.

Muzza,

I think 99% of Kiwi hunters would disagree with your obvious inference that "helicopter shooting" is atypical of "New Zealand style hunting". Or shooting deer farm breeding stags in small pens is hunting.

Maybe you are in the local minority in your own ranks as well.

Please leave whatever personal problems you are having off the forums, your 'humour' might improve as a result.

PS

Muzza,

I shot four does in a 1 acre paddock in my deer farm last week.

Should I write up a "hunting story" with photos on that for you for your entertainment?

Maybe , John , the "personal problems" I have are with people like you and Gryphon who persist in slagging any or all hunting methods legally used in New Zealand .

As has been pointed out repeatedly here by others - its not illegal , and its not your role to tell people how they will hunt . If you dont like lit , dont come here and do it .

Its tsill a free -ish country here , we can choose how and what for ourselves .

Pull your heads in and mind your own business . Thats the only personal problem I have at present , apart from not enough money for the chopper ride into the hills for my next canned hunt .

Get over it .

quote:

I would like to hunt tahr with an expert so that I don't get myself killed in the Southern Alps. Hopefully I will learn enough from the experience to be able to hunt without a guide in the future, but until then I'm not taking any chances. Does that mean I'm not a "real" hunter?

well now if you were really nice to Madness maybe he could take you out and show you the ropes...and learn to doff your lid to the boys like him that have the score on the board you will learn so much more from him and his ilk than you ever will from that champion of keyboard hunters ol` muzzlewump himself

quote:

Maybe , John , the "personal problems" I have are with people like you and Gryphon who persist in slagging any or all hunting methods legally used in New Zealand .

Muzzlewump you showed your true form a while ago and spat your dummy so i suggest you pick it up and stow it right in your ginger...it will be far more flavoursome than the dribble running down your chin

oops muzzlewump i forgot to ask..."now where do i slag off about any or all NZ hunt methods"....go back through my posts and show me where i have slagged any free wild fair chase stuff you ning nong..get it right...

HEY HOWS THAT DUMMY TASTING NOW? BETTER?

And i have to say that free range sika hunt with Madness seems oh so good right now mate wink wink!

You boys really dont like me do you?

Well , gosh , that upsets me so much .

Have a nice weekend were ever you are , I'm going Fallow hunting in the snow - yep , free-range Fallow , hunted on foot . You know - real hunting , the way real blokes do , no guides or helicopters or deer fences- and none of you guys . It will be bliss....

quote:

You boys really dont like me do you?

NAH!



good luck with your hunting though

quote:

Originally posted by muzza:
You boys really dont like me do you?

Actually I have no concern either way.

I just find it interesting when anyone mentions "cannned hunting" in NZ you suddenly appear with personal insults and try to do a "heavy" to discourage any discussion on the matter or drive it off topic. I'm sorry I've never been one to let a 'bully' let alone an internet one stop me from doing anything.

From my knowledge the only hunters in NZ which have any regard (most have contempt) for heli shooting, and tame deer shooting, are the guys making a buck from it.

Do you go on the various Kiwi hunting forums with the same level of support for canned hunting? How does it go down on those forums?

John boy - I dont approve or disapprove of what you call canned hunting . My entire argument all the way through these endless shitfights that start with either your or Gryphon is that the type of hunting is not illegal in this country , and you nor anyone else has the right to tell me or any other person who hunts here what to do or not to do . It has nothing to do with morals or ethics - it is a legal hunting method in this country and people can choose to do it or not do it .

If some rich guy wants to shoot a gold medal stag in a cage what business is it of yours? He doesnt have to justify it anyone except himself. Thats the only issue here. You seem to be bitter and twisted about it when it is NOTHING to do with YOU.

or is it because someone dares to stand up to you ?

I dont belong to any other NZ hunting forum , dont frequent any very often , dont feel the need to justify myself everywhere I go .

I am me , a free agent with my own opinions and views and I dont have to agree with anyone else if I choose not to . If you guys want to look at internet bullies I suggest you look in your own mirror before you point the finger at anyone else - Anyone wants to slag my hunting in my country the way you and your mate have been can expect exactly the same response from me . Just because I am prepared to take the time to respond when others dont doesnt make me a bully - it just makes me someone who disagrees with you and is prepared to stand up and be counted.

This whole encounter is unproductive and I have nothing further to add - other than its still snowing where I will be on friday afternoon , and I wont be missing you even a bit.

Have a nice weekend , I know I will.

ok pissant the gloves are off and i retract my "good luck with your hunting" statement after another slag at me,and i dont mind if you get fukn frostbite in all that snow cobber.Oops does it snow in the pen though?


here try this too..it seems its right up your alley mate.

http://www.laredohuntclub.com//

Posted this on the Vid Section. Seems there some interest in real hunting in NZ.

I put them up here recently, looks like some good feedback coming in.

Sample Clips

Format is WMV 320x240. I re-sampled them as they are off a DVD I made so the original quality is a bit better.

i had a look at them the other day p67 on that site
what the hell was that guy going on about with the rusa thing
i take it he hasn't seen very many deer in this time

Interesting discussion

I took up hunting as I was tired of long walks in to mountain huts for alpine climbing, but wanted an excuse to be in the outdoors. Im fairly experienced in NZ conditions, so I commonly hunt in quite remote areas by myself. However NZ is a country with distinctive weather patterns, and it catchs out a lot of overseas hunters/climbers out. I would never denigrate a fellow hunter for hiring a guide to help and put them in front of an animal.

I do get a bit cynical when I see "trophy heads" in the magazines with a tag in their ear tho.

In NZ deer and thar are regarded as pests and DOC will tolerate them if hunters keep the numbers down to what DOC regard as a reasonable density (especially thar). DOC will cull (for thar, with shotguns from a helicopter) if they regard the numbers as too high. Some hunters will take out whole families of thar to protect this arrangement. The range of thar is also restricted with the use of judas animals (with a tracking devices attached) and yearly culls.

NZ is a bueutiful place, and there is a real history of hunting here. Trying to stick a boar with a pig dog attached to its knackers is quite an experience.

If hunters want to come over here and try it out, please do. Get a guide if you feel the need. There are also huge areas of public land that can be hunted (a DOC permit is required for land they administer, which is easy to get), but the chances of getting an animal may be less (as in most areas local knowledge helps a lot). NZ is still the only place in the world you can hunt himlayan thar.

In NZ you can be the only hunter in a valley, great.

quote:

Originally posted by muzza:
I dont belong to any other NZ hunting forum , dont frequent any very often , dont feel the need to justify myself everywhere I go .

I guessed that from the way you carry on on this forum.

quote:

It has nothing to do with morals or ethics ...

This of course is your opinion. You will find thousands of hunters around the world will disagree with you ie that anything that is legal is also moral or ethical.

quote:

My entire argument all the way through these endless shitfights that start with either your or Gryphon is that the type of hunting is not illegal in this country ...

You are a bit of a goose if you think Gryphon and I have the same ideas on what is canned hunting and what is not.

It's just so much of the 'tourist' hunting in NZ is so 'canned' that it is hard to not agree on it.

quote:

If some rich guy wants to shoot a gold medal stag in a cage what business is it of yours? He doesnt have to justify it anyone except himself.

True but I asked you the question which you never replied to - ie Why does this "rich guy" then lie about how the hunt (ie shoot) was conducted?

So many people keep saying everything legal is fine and OK, but if it was all legal and the methods fine, why when they get on the internet or go home, do they LIE ABOUT HOW THEY HUNTED THE ANIMALS?

quote:

You seem to be bitter and twisted about it when it is NOTHING to do with YOU.

I want to see the end of canned hunting trophies being allowed on trophy registers. That is what I would like to see happen for both NZ and Australia. Trophy registers should only contain true wild shot game and game hunted ethically.

And BTW I have never entered an animal on a register either, nor am I interested in doing so.

quote:

Anyone wants to slag my hunting in my country the way you and your mate have been can expect exactly the same response from me.

Again you attempt to confuse the issues. We are talking about "canned hunting" not what you personally might do. If you continue to try to confuse the issues of the discussions, we can only have one of two possible explanations. Either you are an idiot, or you are deliberately confusing the issues as a misinformation technique, because of some other agenda.

You will have to get used to these discusssions. They are not going to go away.

Please try to keep the abuse and personal attacks off this hunting forum. You do not do yourself and your arguments any good by using such a low form of debate.

P67.

I also liked that site