OK I am NOT trying to antagonise anyone (yeah right you say) I am trying to lay some facts out before you all.

Heli Hunting guides are seeking a legal concession for their activities in the next few months.

This is what heli-hunting is about

Alpine Hunting, Shane Quinns website, watch

Part 2 after the pig hunt

Shane Quinns Alpine Hunting

As this is merely a link to a hunting website selling hunts it breaches no rights, the videos are there for anyone to watch.

You can make your own minds up as to whether this is ethical or not. It is an example no more or less for the purposes of this thread
I have no doubt it is exciting but there is plenty of private land to engage in this on.



Here are some off the cuff estimates of the animal take and the possible response if heli hunting is legalised

Just some figures I ran this afternoon I would take correction from anyone.

Has the NZPHGA tried to stop heli-hunts? Why not? Does any other country allow helicopters to be used as an integral part of a hunt beyond carrying supplies and people to camps?

Yes I know there are guides who abhor this development and they may well be fine people but they are not doing much to stop this are they? It would help a lot if those guides stood up to be counted because it seems to the minister and DoC that all guides are happy for heli-hunts to happen. The tourism benefits are spouted by heli-hunt supporters across the minsters desk. It would be helpful if some of these non heli-hunting guides stood up and and said tourism would not be affected by only allowing guided ground hunting on DoC land, right now it’s just rec hunters and NZDA opposed to these concessions. Heli-hunts also threaten the future of any guided public land ground hunting.

It is an absolute fiction to say that tahr trophy quality will be able to tolerate a new alpine hunting season with every guide and client in a helicopter.

Do the maths, say 8000 nannies which is high by the way, of a total tahr pop of 9,000 to 12,000 and about 3500 males born every year?

DoC SAD accounts for 3000 plus tahr every year so say 750 of those killed are juv males.

You now have 2750 males left of that say 25% are on private land inaccessible to rec hunters (that is about 750 bulls, a very low figure) you are now down to about 2000 males.

You have maybe 2000 juv bulls left coming through each year mixed in with the remaining 1000 of mixed ages. So you have a potential total pool of 3000 male tahr of varying ages (I personally think this figure is higher than actual).

Each of the three operators now applying could easily take 300 bulls each with an expanded legal heli-hunt season with guides, I know two more who are ready to start up very soon if allowed. That is at least 1000 bulls a year to heli hunts someone tell me it’s less but I doubt it, probably higher is my guess. That is a gross turnover of between $5,000,000 and $10,000,000 at between $5,000 and $10,000 per bull. Private land bulls run at around $1000 to $3000 (guide fees accom etc on top) I guess but others would know better and I will take correction.

Rec hunters (yes the taxpaying estate owners who Doc manage the lands for) could take at least 1000 bulls of varying non trophy ages every year. So you are down to 2000 potential trophy bull tahr between the ages of 3 and 10 years if 20% of them are 8 years or older and 12 inch plus thats 400 trophy bulls spread over 1.7 million hectares. That is not a lot of bull tahr and it would not take heli-hunting pressure as efficient as it is to tip it further against the trophy bulls.

When you consider the fact that over 800 trophy bulls came off Canterbury alone last year including game parks we know there are a lot of bulls getting shot by guided hunts.

With heli-hunting concessions taking at least 1000 bulls annually you are talking about potentially over 50% of the annual bulls available on DoC land being taken by heli-hunts each season. Two heli-hunt guiding operators already have noted the pressure and do not even say they can guarantee a trophy bull, merely "a representative trophy" (guide talk for anything we can get today)

I ask anyone to put up any other estimates I welcome another take on this because what I did was pull numbers out of the air, probably in the ballpark but not enough to base a whole new concession on. Aside from the fact helihunting is an unacceptable hunting practise there is no data from anyone to say the NZ tahr herd or recreational trophy hunting can support heli-hunting in any legal form, I keep banging on about it but it is the truth ... commercial imperatives and helicopter hunting almost wiped out our tahr herd in the past. Any of us in NZDA with memories do not accept that there will be no impact from heli-hunts it will be almost 50% of the annual bull harvest with the potential to go much higher.

As an aside if heli hunting goes through rec hunter groups may consider a scorched earth policy.

Every rec hunter kills every bull they see regardless of whether it is recoverable, every bull goes down

Just one reactive option very extreme but it has been muttered. I would not favour this scorched earth policy personally but good bulls for trophy hunting on DoC land don't happen without a lot of rec hunter restraint.
Why would rec hunters continue to support a public hunting policy from DoC that has dis-enfranchised them ?

In short trophy hunting on DoC land may well collapse as a viable business within 5 years of these concessions being allowed.

Now someone please prove me wrong or bring another set of figures to the table because I don't really have a clue, this is a seat of the pants estimate but is it that far out ?

Once again I stress I am not winding anyone up I am saying that just because the animal is not hunted with a heliciopter does not mean no-one gets to hunt it. New Zealand hunters do not want this sort of hunting allowed in New Zealand

If you choose to hunt this way in New Zealand you support it.

If you do not support this sort of hunting email a letter to the Minister of Conservation in New Zealand stating your opposition to granting concessions of this sort.

Here is the Minister of Conservations Secretarys email

Gavin Rodley
Private Secretary for Conservation

Gavin.Rodley@parliament.govt.nz

Knowing some of you here you will probably write in support I can take that chance

You may wish to consider the New Zealand recreational hunters veiw of heli-hunting below

Does helihunting fit with the intent and purpose of our public lands?

Heli-hunting offers no appreciable conservation benefit. Taking of male ‘trophy’ animals has little if any effect on the rate of increase of the population. The net effect on conservation is in fact negative – unfettered heli-hunting discourages effort by recreational hunters, and increased aircraft activity impinges on intrinsic values.

That being understood, there are strong philosophical reasons to reject utterly the notion of allowing heli-hunting on our public lands.

The use of the term ‘heli-hunting’ is a misnomer at best – this is not hunting. This is just killing animals. Aldo Leopold wrote in A Sand County Almanac with Other Essays on Conservation from Round River:

“There is a value in any experience that exercises those ethical restraints collectively called ‘sportsmanship’. Our tools for the pursuit of wildlife improve faster than we do, and sportsmanship is a voluntary limitation in the use of those armaments”

As noted, there is no conservation or animal control benefit from heli-hunting. Therefore it is masquerading as a form of sport hunting – but there is no sport in it. The helicopter takes the place of the legs of the hunter which gets him or her into the animals’ habitat, it takes the place of the hunter’s eyes to find the game for them, and it replaces the hunters cunning required to outwit the animal. Once those are gone, all that is left is ego.

The philosopher Jose Ortega y Gasset wrote in Meditations on Hunting:

“[H]unting is not simply casting blows right and left in order to kill animals … The hunt is a series of technical operations, and for an activity to become technical it has to matter that it works in one particular way and not in another …. It involves a complete set of ethics of the most distinguished design.”

We believe our public lands have been conserved for many things, not the least of which is the ability for our people to learn and have reinforced certain ethics that are important to our culture – caring for the land and the things that live on it, respect for the history that our people have in this place and leaving a better world for our descendants.

Heli-hunting is a complete departure from that subset of our ethics which we apply to hunting. It is a completely unethical way to hunt. If we allow it on our public lands, we will allow to be caused great damage to the importance of our public lands to our collective sense of ethics.

If ‘hunters’ can cheat by using helicopters, why not climbers? Why not trampers? Why not fishermen? Why not bird-watchers?

Our public lands should not be a place where we learn that cheating is OK.

The most important philosophical argument against heli-hunting which I wish to bring to the attention of the forum is that discussed by Joseph L. Sax, in his book Mountains without Handrails: Reflections on the National Parks. I suspect this book, and Sax’s thesis, are familiar to many of the Board members; if not, I commend it to them.

Sax set out at the end of his book “A Policy Statement: The Meaning of National Parks today”. His thoughts apply to all public land.

His first statement in his Policy is:

“The Parks are places where recreation reflects the aspirations of a free and independent people”

I would challenge the forum Members to ask themselves - does allowing helihunting over public land meet the above prescription? Helihunting is an activity which has as it’s aim “achieving something in the mind of another” – securing, virtually by any means necessary, a ‘trophy’ with which to impress others. New Zealand’s recreational hunters, just as with our climbers, trampers and other outdoors-people, strive first to accomplish something in their own mind.

Does helihunting really reflect our aspirations?

Sax’s second statement in his Policy is:

“The parks are an object lesson for a world of limited resources”

Sax expands on this statement by noting that “[t]he parks promote intensive experience, rather than intensive use”

We believe the aspiration and vision behind our public lands was for people to have the opportunity for experience. Heli-hunting by contrast is an intensive use, and there is little if any intrinsic experience for the participants. Indeed they are going to great lengths to avoid interaction with the wild places and their ecology.

Furthermore, heli-hunting impacts on the experience of other users – be it hunters who lose the experience opportunities in hunting, or climbers and trampers and others who lose the experience opportunities of undisturbed wilderness.

We welcome guided recreational hunting on foot as another user of our public lands – because that is, like our own hunting, focussed largely on the intensity of the experience.

With these points in mind, we finish by saying we have been unable to fathom why the Department of Conservation is willing to permit, or even to consider allowing, heli-hunting. It fails virtually every test, both utilitarian and aesthetic, of why we would allow an activity on our public lands. It seems in clear breach of existing concessions, and yet it appears to have been tolerated in the past, and about to be encouraged in the future.

Thank you for Reading to the end of this

What more can anyone say Shaun. Beautiful.

if these concessions are granted our country is in massive trouble as a hunting destination.

Many overseas hunters are already giving us the wide berth because of heli-hunting. They've had a gutsful of the BS thats going on here.

There are perhaps including heli-hunting guides and heli operators around 50 people in NZ that these concessions would benefit.

What about the tens of thousands of recreational hunters out there who have as much of a right to the animals as the heli-hunting guides. Hiking clubs, mountian climbing clubs, conservation boards and even forest and bird are against these proposed concessions.

And as for the old catch phrase "you can't hunt them on foot" I guided 2 american hunters 2 weeks ago aged 57 and 62, both shot 12 inch bulls and had the opportunity to take 2nd animals on a 5 day hunt, public land.

Weathered I reckon you're about right with your numbers, great post. We are no staring down the barrell and if we don't bend it straight back at the pen pushers behind it alpine hunting in NZ may be ruined.

Weathered a very good if somewhat scary post.

Heli-hunting (shooting) of alpine game appears to be a major issue at the moment. I have not hunted thar or chamois to date, but hope too in the near future and hopefully for years to come, if there are any left...

Watched the video link. It is beyond me why any "hunter" would consider any animal harvested in such a way to be a "trophy" regardless of whether it had 14" horns or not! Just shooting...

On private land these practices are unsporting & unethical, but on public land they are a bloody crime, exploiting precious assets that are every New Zealander's right to hunt properly.

From what I hear there is a considerable amount of illegal heli-hunting currently carried out on DoC land. Lets all hope that these criminals get their just deserts in the courts.

Interested to hear from ethical-freeranger's post that NZ was getting bad PR overseas from heli-hunting activities, to the detrenent of ethical operators.

Sadly it seems as with everything there are always people who chose to take easy options cheating themselves out of what should be a hard won and proud achievement if done correctly.

As with any "comodity" it is a supply & demand thing: Why if it is illegal (& unethical) to hunt on the same day as a fly in in N America, should it be almost accepted practice to harvest mountain game with the "aid" of a chopper in NZ (thar 10-12mins!!!)??
Either the "collectors" never had any ethics to start with and/or unscrupulous operators tell clients this is how it's done/can't be done on foot.

These concessions must not be allowed to be granted, as stated they WILL be the death of alpine hunting as we know it in NZ.

Act now.

What is SCI's stance on this type of unethical activity? They stopped accepting lions for their book from RSA after all the bad canned lion PR. Perhaps if foreign hunters were better informed/dissuaded from taking animals by these means, then demand would deminish?? Although as I said, there will always be a few cheats/bad apples.

Joe

SCI will not accept any animals shot from any vehicle - nor will any other hunting club that I know of in the world...

The fat men and girls with the dough will love this shit if its made legit.

When there is no game left there is no need to have a firearm...get it? All part of the disarm policy`s big picture.

I dont think so JG. 99% of hunters that I talk to are VERY happy to find that there are real hunting options for tahr, aside from chasing them in a helicopter. Nobody walks up to me and trys to book that kind of hunt..

Im not saying that some of the guys that did it didnt enjoy it - but they never knew there were other options.

maybe they havent personally approached you as of yet but the frontline of the ops are NZ based and associated with the bigger "collector game ranches"...I have personally been given quite a bit of mail about it...many put their heads in the sand and hope it go`s away,but it wont as there are of course many in the world that are unscrupulous meaning either operators and hunters oops I mean shooter/collector types.

Some of the biggest names even here in Oz are tainted including some of the 'award winners' that I know and others I have met.....makes a bloke want to spew, some of it.

my inbox this morn had this from the boys over there.


Most will be in that "post-roar daze", or still chasing stags, but please take time to read and act on this. Many will already be aware of it, but for those who aren't, Oscar and Rhino have posted a *serious* issue that concerns all WildHunts members:

DOC are seriously considering granting applications that legitimise heli-hunting. Make no mistake - by heli-hunting, I don't mean venison recovery operations. This is about clients paying heli operators to shoot "trophy" animals from the machine. I can't imagine any legitimate hunter in New Zealand being prepared to accept this and, if that includes you, there is an urgent need to voice your *strong* objection to this.

Here is some of Oscar's post. For more information, check the WildHunts thread under the Political/Environmental Issues board at http://www.wildhunts.co.nz/ind...m_wrapper&Itemid=433

There is currently an exclusion in WARO Concessions (the only concessions that allow aircraft to be used to 'hunt') that prohibits the carriage of fare-paying or recreational hunters. This was previously assumed to have ruled out heli-hunting.

However - helihunters have rolled out a lawyer, a QC no less, and argued that they could helihunt on current WARO concessions. Unbelievably, DOC bought it. Instead of arguing the case, which may have involved legal action, they effectively rolled over.

This season, any WARO concession holder who also has an application in for a helihunting concession, will be allowed to helihunt in the areas outlined in their application!

Oscar and NZDA know of at least 3 applications (for Otago, Canterbury and Westland) and DOC now expect more - naturally.
Furthermore, DOC considers helihunting to be a "legitimate recreational activity"! Unbelievable. And they have every intention of granting full helihunting concessions in September.

This must not be allowed to happen.

There will be a public submissions/consultation process soon - but we're not waiting for that. We want as many people as possible to write and complain, loudly and repeatedly!

Write to the Minister of Conservation, Peter Dunne MP, Newspaper editors, the DOC Conservators for Canterbury, Otago and Westland, the respective Conservation Boards and the NZ Conservation Authority. Tell them how bad this activity is, and why you oppose it. We want a storm of outrage over this. Point out that the value of these animals to overseas hunters will not be lost, and that we welcome tourist hunters provided they hunt our animals, our way.

We have one chance to kill this before it gets off the ground. If it gets going, it'll be harder to roll back.

Your frank opinion and concerns can be effective if you write or email to these people:

Minister of Conservation, Tim Groser: tim.groser@parliament.govt.nz

Min of Conservation's Private Secretary Gavin Rodley: gavin.rodley@parliament.govt.nz

MP Peter Dunne: peter.dunne@parliament.govt.nz

Dunne's Secretary Hayden Cox: hayden.cox@parliament.govt.nz

Canterbury Aoraki Conservation Board: cacb@doc.govt.nz

Otago Conservation Board: otago@doc.govt.nz

Westland Tai Poutini Conservation Board: Janet Orchard jorchard@doc.govt.nz

Thanks for your action on this serious issue.

All the best Jeff

Bump

Fresh Off The Department Of Conservations PR Machine This Afternoon

quote:

Heli-hunting

Background
Heli-hunting has become established as a growing tourism activity, particularly with overseas clients. It usually involves the use of a helicopter to carry a client and hunting guide to search for, shoot and then transport out trophy animals, particularly tahr and chamois.

The activity of heli-hunting properly authorised is not unlawful because it is covered by the definition of wild animal recovery operations in the Wild Animal Control Act 1977. Any applications for heli-hunting concessions need to be processed in accordance with the department‘s statutory planning documents.

The department’s intention is to allow helicopter operators who hold current WARO permits and who have applied for heli-hunting concessions to continue to operate during the March-September 2009 season over the areas identified in their application, where these are consistent with the department’s statutory plans and policies, while their concession applications are considered. This will upset many recreational hunters who are totally opposed to heli-hunting, particularly the shooting of animals from helicopters.

The benefits
Heli-hunting is a significant tourism activity in Canterbury and the rest of the South Island. It is estimated that collectively it could be a multimillion-dollar business for the country.

The issues
There are two main issues arising from the heli-hunting applications:
1. The department and the heli-hunting operators have differing views as to whether this activity is covered by the current Wild Animal Recovery Operations (WARO) permits already held by the operators.
2. Many recreational hunters are opposed to heli-hunting

1. WARO concession permits, including heli-hunting
Currently a WARO concession permit is required any time an aircraft is used on public conservation land for the searching for, shooting and recovering of wild animals or parts of wild animals. These WARO concession permits have been issued for five year periods.

Heli-hunting is a type of WARO concession permit as it involves the carriage of a client and guide in the activity of searching for, shooting and recovering wild animals. Although this activity was not specifically identified as a WARO activity when the current WARO concession permits were issued, it is desirable to achieve clarity and for that reason some operators have applied for new permits for this activity. Canterbury Conservancy has heli-hunting applications from three operators and expects to receive two more. Otago and the West Coast Conservancies are also considering up to two applications.

In the interim, as detailed above while these applications are being processed, and given that there is a level of uncertainty as to whether the current permits provide for this activity, the department intends to allow the heli-hunters to continue to operate for the 2009 heli-hunting season over those areas identified in their applications where consistent with the department’s statutory plans and policies..

Recreational hunters often use helicopters to access the back country, to reach campsites or huts where they set up their base to hunt from. Heli-hunting goes one step further, and uses the helicopter to reach the hunting grounds themselves, and will spot the animal from the air before placing a hunter on the ground to shoot the animal.

There are 94 WARO permits across New Zealand. The WARO permits all expire in September 2009. Canterbury Conservancy is leading the national re-issue process.

2. Stakeholder concerns about heli-hunting
Recreational hunters regard the activity of heli-hunting as “illegal”. Some recreational hunting stakeholders have already demonstrated opposition to heli-hunting generally. There is a feeling the heli-hunters may negatively impact hunting on foot—spooking the quarry of these hunters for example.

Following the ‘Deer Tahr Chamois Pig Panel’ process and the imminent establishment of a Big Game Hunting Council, hunters have increased expectations of being involved in decision-making.

Hunting is deeply entrenched in New Zealanders’ cultural psyche and as such attracts a strong, emotive response from many hunters when communicating about this issue.

How is the department resolving this issue?
1. The department has been working to remove any ambiguities in current WARO concession permits. Activities will be separated out so there will be different permits to cover specific activities, with conditions based on their benefits and effects.
2. Under this new system, heli-hunting operators can apply for a concession permit specifically to carry out heli-hunting. We already have three operators that have done so, under the concessions process.
3. The department is aware of balancing the needs of all recreational users of public conservation land and is therefore looking at ways this can be addressed— such as Conservation Management Strategies.
4. There are a number of opportunities coming up for those in opposition to heli-hunting to make public submissions:
• Heli-hunting as a recreational or commercial activity will require a WARO concession permit to be carried out on public conservation land. The WARO concession permit process includes public notification and submissions..
• Recreational hunters will also get an opportunity to have their say through conservancies’ Conservation Management Strategy (CMS) reviews and public notification process. Canterbury’s submission process is due to start later in 2009 and will include policies such as the draft Aircraft Access Guidelines.
• A framework under which the interest groups will be informed of proposed changes to the WARO concession permitting system is currently being developed

5. Careful selection of places in which the activity will be considered, taking into account all public comment received. In many cases this is likely to be country inaccessible to hunters on foot.

6. The department will assess zoning areas for all aircraft to minimise the disturbance to "natural quiet" as part of its public planning processes e.g. CMSs.

Heli-hunting is a significant tourism activity in Canterbury and the rest of the South Island. It is estimated that collectively it could be a multimillion-dollar business for the country.

So is child sex in Thailand but it like WARO is illegal

Heli-hunting is a type of WARO concession permit as it involves the carriage of a client and guide in the activity of searching for, shooting and recovering wild animals. Although this activity was not specifically identified as a WARO activity when the current WARO concession permits were issued, it is desirable to achieve clarity and for that reason some operators have applied for new permits for this activity.

1/ Heli hunting is not a type of WARO there are no ambiguities in regard to the WARO permit which specifically excludes the carriage of fare paying passengers or recreational hunters the only ambiguity displayed has been by the Department of Conservation

Recreational hunters often use helicopters to access the back country, to reach campsites or huts where they set up their base to hunt from. Heli-hunting goes one step further, and uses the helicopter to reach the hunting grounds themselves, and will spot the animal from the air before placing a hunter on the ground to shoot the animal.

Helihunting does not take hunting one more step .... it gets in a helicopter and flies there
Climbers use helicopters too but you don't see them flying onto the summit of Mount Cook do you ? Lets just forget about walking the great walks tracks and just fly along them

Stakeholder (the taxpayers the people who own the parks) concerns about heli-hunting
Recreational hunters regard the activity of heli-hunting as “illegal”. Some recreational hunting stakeholders have already demonstrated opposition to heli-hunting generally. There is a feeling the heli-hunters may negatively impact hunting on foot—spooking the quarry of these hunters for example

Lets expand that beyond just a lone hunter pitting his wits against an animal in its own habitat. Look at the purpose of the National Parks they are to allow New Zealanders to participate in the New Zealand outdoor recreational experience. Where does that fit in with helihunters who go to great lengths to avoid any contact at all with the national parks. The tahr and chamois are not protected but our right under the conservation act to enjoy our recreation in full measure is supposedly protected

Following the ‘Deer Tahr Chamois Pig Panel’ process and the imminent establishment of a Big Game Hunting Council, hunters have increased expectations of being involved in decision-making

That would be a reasonable expectation since the Deer Pig Tahr Chamois panel reccomended more input from hunters being taken up.
Looks like it will only happen if you are
A/ A tourist
B/ Fat lazy and useless as a hunter
C/ Rich with lots of money

I did not expect something as miserable as this document we don't even get to critique a halfway decent spin.
I am happy this is out there now .... any doubts anyone .... no.... well onto the next battle then

If any of you want to comment on the effects of helihunting on your decision to hunt in New Zealand, fire off a letter here is the Ministers Address.
Here is the Minister of Conservations Secretarys email

Gavin Rodley
Private Secretary for Conservation

Gavin.Rodley@parliament.govt.nz

We keep getting told it is a great money earner no-one seesm to understand we will become the only country in the OECD to allow helicopters to hunt big game and its implications, I criticise tourist heli-hunters but in equal measure I am ashamed at my own country for this sick legacy.

quote:

Once again I stress real hunters visiting from overseas who ground hunt are always welcome here. These hunters immerse themselves in the outdoor hunting experience New Zealand offers much the same as New Zealand hunters do

Is this where helihunts are going ? Shotgun Shooting above ground hunters

Shooting within 20 meters of ground hunters

This was a govt DoC employee in a helicopter trying to harass ground hunters but it gives you an idea of what helihunt concessions will unleash on New Zealand ground hunters

Shows the complete arrogance of the heli- crews
they can see the ground hunters, who were obviously there first, and despite the choppers ability to quickly move to a new location, they continue to destroy the efforts of the guys who have probably taken a day or two to get to that position. Also I beleive that discharging a firarm in close proximity too the public, may constitute an offence under CAA regs.

I wonder how long before the Wapiti herd gets hit?....