Good day, gents:
I'd like to weigh in here and post my opinion if you would allow.

I've hunted a few of each and both are lots of fun. Writers about cape buffalo hunting stretch the truth as a dull hunt makes for dull reading. Cape buffalo are just cattle in my opinion and, without exception, every one I've encountered has run off when seeing or winding me. Yes, folks have been killed by them I know. But if the numbers were available of hunters killed compared to the numbers hunted and the years the cape has been the quarry of hunters in Africa I would guess the ratio is quite tiny. (This is not taking into account the number of nimrods who come home in modern times telling of the "charge."

Water buffalo have not been hunted to the extent as the cape and also do not have lions to prey on them so generally speaking they don't run off as do the cape. If they do go, it is more of a slow trot and not a bee-line to the next county. Many of the bulls will walk up to the hunter for a face off. This in not a charge my any stretch of the imagination but either curiosity or protecting his harem. It is quite exciting to stand face to face with a buffalo at 20 yards and prepare for a frontal shot.

If both species have been hunted for the same amount of time and in the same numbers I would venture to guess the fatalities and charges would be similar.

Bottom line is they are both fun to shoot, uniquely different due to their living conditions, and make wonderful trophies and good eating.

Cheers, all.
Cal

Pretty good summation there Cal! Most honest African PH's would agree with you on the Cape buffalo too, I believe... least those who I know, do.

I trust you had a great trip to Australia. I wish I could have been at the BGRC shoot but I had to fly home to see my family, who I had not laid eyes on for 8 weeks. Now they want me to leave again!! Go figure.

Cheers
Matt

Matt:
The shoot was fun and even more so was seeing old friends (Graeme W., Mick G., Tony O.) and meeting many new friends. Also, seeing some fine rifles was a treat including a Holland Royal ejector in .600. It sure showed up my old boat anchor Wilkes .600!
Cheers, mate.
Cal

That's cool Cal. I couldnt be there but my 450 VC was there, on loan to a guy named Dan.

Tony is very pleased with how the event went - beyond expectations really - and I am sure they were VERY pleased to have you there too!

Hopefully we can catch up in Darwin some time - or at DSC if you are coming.

Cheers mate
Matt

PS. Sorry about the chit-chat guys... continue!!

One day I have to try aussie water buff.
By god, just thinking about that gets me going and as far I know, plenty of porkers to shoot as well there.
Damn elephant hunting gets in the way lately.
SOON...

You can get more buffalo shooting action in a week in Australia, than any but the most over- achieving buffalo hunter will do in a productive lifetime of African hunts.(Saeed excluded obviously )

That's not to take away anything from either, nor to make a statement about which is "better". It is the simple reality, large bags are available and affordable in Australia if that's something that matters to you.

Thanks, will have to look into it.
So much hunting to do and so little time in this life and not much money either, but better then saving money for retirement. LOL

Crocodile Dundee makes hunting Water Buffalo look easy.

I have taken a few of each myself, and find both can be very challenging. My experiences with both are very much as Cal describes.

As Cal refers to Cape Buffalo;

quote:

every one I've encountered has run off when seeing or winding me

True. I have only ever had any real issues with ones that have already been hit. I know of only one case of unprovoked aggression. I have had a few, after very seriously provoked with bullets, attempt to be a problem,
but not one of them was able to do much about it before taking extra rounds to put them down for good. One a couple of years ago was hit extremely hard, and had backed up against the brush to wait on us. He had gone down in such a position that rear or even side approach was not possible. He played an excellent game until I was 5 yards in front of him when he stormed to life, or attempted to, and then he took a couple of .500 caliber bullets through the noggin which was a serious deterrent to any further attempts on his part.



Just a couple of weeks ago I was able to witness perhaps the toughest buffalo that I had ever hit, attempt twice to ambush us. We found him both times, watched long enough for him to leak down, but in the end he was able to stand up on our approach to face us, after getting hit 4 times hard, he was down for the count, but even in his last breath he rolled over to face me for one more attempt.



There have been a few other cases, but none as dramatic as the two above.



Australia Buffalo.....

Again, I find exactly the same thing here that Cal describes......

quote:

Many of the bulls will walk up to the hunter for a face off. This in not a charge my any stretch of the imagination but either curiosity or protecting his harem. It is quite exciting to stand face to face with a buffalo at 20 yards and prepare for a frontal shot.

Some of the areas I hunt with Paul Truccolo, I swear, it seems that some of those bulls have never seen a man, and are wondering what the hell we are? Curiosity? In some cases, I am quite sure of it. As Cal says, not nearly as much hunting pressure has been put on them for the last hundred years, and some are so back country they may have never encountered man before. I have seen some unprovoked aggression, never a full out charge, but the stance and approach left no question as to intent.

One bull last year also left no question of his intent. I hit this bull in some very thick brush with a 475 B&M, 425 gr North Fork CPS, square in the shoulders, at the shot, last I saw of him was his ass disappearing in the brush only 10 or so yards from the shot. Paul and I followed up, but somehow took a turn to our left following a trail looking for blood and tracks. After 40-50 yards we found nothing, I was beginning to get concerned? We back tracked to the spot of the shot, and 10 yards in front of us I parted the brush, and there he was!! Good we took that wrong turn to the left of him, as he had backed himself up against the brush and was waiting on us, no doubt, as he was turned to face us. Only problem was, the shot was good, and he had expired there while waiting, lucky for us!








Once you open that dance with buffalo, cape or Australian, there can be but one outcome. Both are incredibly tough animals, I think far tougher than any others I have any experience with, and both are great fun to hunt, but never underestimate either of them, and hold both in high regard, and you best respect either, or you may find yourself in a spot of trouble!

While still here in Pretoria South Africa after a great hunt in Zimbabwe for buffalo, hipp, elephant, and croc, in a few short weeks I will be in Australia again to give those buffalo a go........

Michael

Michael, that is a grand, grand bull! Well-done!

On the weekend I was priveliged to spend fifteen minutes, at sunset, just six metres away from a large bull just looking and sniffing at us (we were in the Toyota). He had never seen humans or vehicles before, I am almost certain. Eventually we drove away and he went back to feeding. Others, of course, are not so inclined to hang-around. I have only seen one charge, but that bull broke it off after about forty metres of chasing my sprinting friend, and I killed him with a .308. But there was one that was advancing very aggressively, including swimming a billabong to get to us, that I killed earlier this year. He may have charged had I waited more.

water buffalo may be good hunting, but the next story posted about one killing a hunter will likely be the first one. There are literally thousands of true stories of Cape Buffalo hunting down and stomping hunters and civilians into pulp.

Idaho

Re your comment.

1. The numbers of Water Buff are not like the Buff in Africa and when the numbers were that high, not many hunted them.
2. Not nearly as many hunt Water buff as Cape buff.
3. Plenty of people have been charged and the odd one killed.
4. water Buff have killed horses, people in the past when Buffalo shooting was done in numbers.

Anyway, we can have fun hunting both !!!

quote:

There are literally thousands of true stories of Cape Buffalo hunting down and stomping hunters and civilians into pulp.

Stories are usually created for entertainment reasons,
..then[fortunately] we have unembelished factual accounts by true hardcore professional hunters,
which can be rather disappointingly anti-climactic, for those conditioned to certain types of hunting stories.

Why is it Hemingway expressed that he was personally disappointed when DG just simply died after being shot?

probably because quick efficient hunts are usually a short boring read, and would not help sell ones publication.

On the other hand, W.D.M. Bell shot some 700 Cape buffalo without any account of a charge.
In fact, he specifically states that he was never charged by the Cape buff he terminated.

Some people find it hard to absorb such mind sobering facts from true hardcore well seasoned professional hunters,
..instead prefering to remain hooked on Ruark,Hemingway and Crapstick style writings. ..


quotes](Regarding Cape buffalo)



"worthy game in thick stuff but ludicrously easy things to kill in open country" - WDM Bell.


"In parts they(buffaloes) were the regular ration for the camp. I remember killing 23 out of 23 with a high velocity .22 rifle
partly to see how effective the tiny 80 grain bullet was but chiefly because meat was required." - WDM Bell.

A RAAFie got hit pretty hard by a water buffalo here last year, and hospitalised.

Big Head got killed when his horse tripped, I think, and the bull he'd wounded turned on him.

Then there's that other Aborigine who got killed whilst going after a bull on foot with a .303.

That kid got killed at the water hole.

That bloke got killed walking his dog down the back of his property.

That fellow got busted-up doing the tourist walk from the Gorge to Edith Falls.

That's just off the top of my head.

Ben

What about the one at Gove, walking along
the track back to his home from the pub
and the Buff came out the bushes and
flattened him ?



Idaho

The other thing is, we don't make a big song
and dance about it all the time. they do for
Croc deaths (as in people killed by Crocs)
but not so much for Buffalo deaths.

Buffalo are just cattle and I don't think cattle "hunt down" anyone. While there is no way to get accurate numbers, it would be interesting to tabulate the number of cape buffalo hunted and the number of fatalities over the past 150 years.

Trax is correct, dull hunts don't sell books. I am astounded the number of hunters I speak to or communicate with via email or the post that tell me of the "charge." I remember reading about how cape buffalo would turn when wounded and hunt the hunter. The myths abound. When is SA this past June a PH told me when we were following some tracks, "Those buff are waiting for us" and later, "They are going from tree to tree to ambush us." He carried a handgun in a holster as leopard "jump out of trees" on hunters passing by. I can only think of one other hunter who was so full of shit from the stories he told.
Cheers, genets.
Cal

Cal,

On this issue of "dull hunts", when it comes to Cape Buff, I must strongly disagree with you. I find hunting the cape buff to be extremely exciting! The best of all the African DG hunts. Starting with the tracking and often ending with belly crawling or butt scooting for those final 50 yards or so to get close to a 100% "switched on" animal of prey. Now of course, if you snipe them at 100 yards or so, they really are just cattle as you say. I'd just prefer to shoot Impala under those conditions; mainly because PG hunting of this sort is much cheaper and just about exciting. And I've heard the "complaint" that they just run off when they see you, as if the hunter was expecting some great war to the finish!! IMO, that's a misguided viewpoint.

The fact that they run off is part of the allure of the hunt. By that, I mean we must firstly remember that buffalo are a prey species, not a predator, and as such, they are no pushover! They posses exceptional hearing, sense of smell and eyesight. They have all three of those self preservation senses working for them. Compared to elephant who have the smell and hearing, but poor eyesight. Ele are often somewhat easy to get close to if you mind the wind and watch where you step, but putting the sneaky sneak on a mature dugga boy in thick brush without getting busted is a challenge I relish! It's the very point I've made previously with the video of shooting buff at a distance compared to shooting them up close in thick cover!!

On top of those keen senses, a mature dugga boy has a sense of strategy that ele don't seem to display. For example, last October, my PH and I tracked and hunted two dugga boys in the heat of the day, hoping to catch them taking a midday nap. Trouble is, being doubled up, they had a plan. The two old boys found a thicket of jesse with a relatively definite boundary where the thick stuff began and opened into an almost barren field 1/2 a mile or so across. The jesse was also at the top of a small hill, giving a great vantage point for watching the open field. To make matters worse, the wind was blowing directly from the thick stuff into the open field. The two buff laid down at 45 degree angles to each other forming an outward facing "V". This they did about 20 yards inside the jesse so they couldn't be easily spotted from a distance. The result is that anything approaching from the jesse would be heard or smelled, and anything approaching from the field would be seen, coming from either side as one buff had the left side visually covered while his pal had the right side covered! Now with a set up like that, I promise you, trying to approach to within 50 yards or so, in order to get a good shoot with an open sighted double rifle, is a real challenge. You can sign me up for that one as many times as I can put the funds together!! I haven't said anything about the follow up into the jesse, but just that set up alone makes for a great hunt as the likelihood of pulling it off successfully is slim to none! I'm still not sure how we did it, but we did close to within 60 yards where I took the shot.

So yeah, they will run off most every single time. It makes them the great challenge to stalk up close to on foot that they are. Just like almost any true prey animal. But, and it's a big BUT, should you start the game with him by misplacing your shot, this is where he differs significantly from those other "prey" animals. If he gets that adrenalin up, he's going to be damn hard to put down short of a CNS strike, or a significant amount of copper or brass (no lead bullets for me ) thrown down range. And in those instances, SOMETIMES, he makes a stand! It is those rare instances where he chooses to fight that have romanticized the buffalo in hunter's minds over the years. Yes, it's rare, and a properly hit buff from the get go will likely die without incident, but we all know and it's been said over and over, that if you hunt long enough, you will eventually hit your quarry with less than ideal bullet placement. When it happens on a cape buff, you'll have your hands full with this particular species of "cattle"!

Sorry guys, I can't comment on the Aussie buff. Haven't done that one yet. I do have plans to get it done with Matt in the next couple of years however. Matt, we are still on for that one by the way and I will be bringing both of the boys. Just have a few other hunts I had committed to previously to get out of the way first!

Cheers.

I'd rather shoot and hunt buffalo than any species of anything that walks the planet. There is nothing like putting bullet to buffalo flesh! No animal I have ever put bullet to is any tougher to put in the dirt than ole buff, and I have put bullet to more than a few critters! I find big prime Aussie bulls just as tough on this count as well. Both can take a hell of a pounding and keep on their feet.

Yep, Buffalo are Cattle....... But they are a long way from being "Just Cattle"......... And I find that "Cattle" ain't always civil. I recall when I was a kid my cousin and I ventured into my grandfathers "Cattle" pasture... I might have been around 12 yrs old or so. Granddad had a big bull of some sort, and that bastard chased my cousin and I back under the fence, where I got a nice scrapping on my back from the barbwire. That cow had intentions, we only just made it under the fence without getting our asses stomped, or horned...... "Just Cattle"... Hardly.... Maybe Cal is thinking about the old "Milk Cow" he kept out in the back yard....

I don't recall the exact number of PHs killed just last year by cape buffalo, but I believe it was 3-5 or there abouts. I know of one absolutely unprovoked attack on a friend of mine and his wife a couple of years ago by a buffalo. They were not even hunting buffalo, just taking a walk down the road when he burst around some brush, knocking my friend over, going on to the wife where she took the brunt of the attack. This unprovoked attack left her fighting for her life after she was air lifted to J'burg. She survived fortunately, her husband and I had a nice visit at DSC last year, she is in a wheelchair permanently now, but a very strong lady with a great outlook on life.

"Cattle"... Yep sure enough.... "Just Cattle", hardly......

If done properly one will rarely have too many issues with buffalo. Shot in the heart, they can go, but they don't go far, and by the time you catch up most of the time they are stone cold. Most of the time, pretty much the same for lung shots, but not always, and they can live a long time after even having both lungs shot up, as I learned a couple of weeks ago.

In my post above, the buffalo with the lever gun. That is a 50 B&M Alaskan, I hit that buffalo on the run with a 365 gr Lever Raptor from CEB at 2175 fps, he was right at 30 yds, shot took him behind the shoulders, and bullet passed thru both lungs, it had cut a .500 caliber hole in the far side and was actually just almost sticking out of the hide, I found it when taking photos. The second shot was a 405 #13 Solid 2120 fps, did not know this at the moment and only learned of this after reviewing the video, but that bullet hit a 5-6 inch diameter tree 10 yds in front of me, passed straight through the tree, straight to the buffalo running 30 yards behind the tree, passed through the mid section (GUTS/STOMACH) of the buffalo and EXITED the buffalo.





At this point I saw him start to slow up, and started walking, rest of the herd still on the run. He stopped first behind some thick brush only 20-25 yds from taking the first bullet. We could see part of his head, and he was looking directly at us, and waiting. I can't really tell you how long he stood there, but it seemed forever. I was hoping to get a clear shot if he moved, which he did, but not in the direction I had hoped for, so I did not get a shot, and he walked away and disappeared. We moved around some brush, and saw him, about 15 yds from where he was standing, we also ran across a pool of blood 18 inches or better across and nice and pink. We watched as he turned and got into some even thicker brush, and lay down, facing us, eyes alert, but in bad shape. Again, without Andrew's binos, I could not tell ass from head with the red dot sight I had on the lever gun, so no way I could shoot, and even with the binos you could only see his head and not even a clear shot of that. He was fading out, but even the slightest movement his eyes were on it, and he was still alert. After what seemed like a god awful amount of time, we moved just out of sight around a bush hoping to get a better angle, as we rounded the bush, he was on his feet facing us. At that point, which was maybe 20 yds or so, I could see his left front shoulder, somewhat angled to us, and started hitting him there with 405 #13 Solids, total of 4 quickly, and with each one of them rocking him back a half step or so, until the 4th one he sat back on his ass and fell over. I had only one round left in the M71, so put a couple more in quickly and approached. Touching the rifle to his eye, he still had just enough life in him to roll completely over on his back in one last breath to attempt to get at us. And expired within seconds, not able to get back on his feet.

There was no doubt in my mind, no doubt in anyone elses mind that was present and witnessed, that had we pushed this animal too soon, he would have charged. In this event, he did not "Charge", but we allowed him to leak on down, get very sick before provoking him too far. Which was exactly the proper thing to do. After doing some forensics I cannot understand myself how in the world he lived as long as he did, especially with that first shot. Both lungs were blown. Time from first shot to the last 4, I honestly can't tell you, if I were to take a wild guess, it seemed like 30 minutes to me, probably, maybe, I am sure it was no less than 15 minutes........ Tough? Damn right! This was not the ole family milk cow, I can tell you that!




The buffalo below was taken in 2011. He was hit on the point of the shoulder with a 450 #13 HP NonCon at 2450 fps at 35 yds. The bullet broke his left front shoulder/leg completely, it was dangling and of zero use. Bullet and blades passed through left side lung totally destroying it, and passed through the back side of the right lung. He took off, along with his two buddies, and in 10 yds had disappeared in between two large clumps of brush. There was about a 5-6 yard gap between these two clumps of brush. He was gone from our view. We approached the gap with care, and once we reached the gap we saw him laid behind a dead log, back to us, ass to the brush, head in the open. We watched for a second or two, no movement at all. Both thought he was stone cold. However, we approached with caution. Could not approach from the rear, Brush. Could not shoot into him because of the log he was laying against. Only approach was around the log, and to his front..... Which we did. At 5-6 yards he decided to come to life, I was on him, and he actually made it to his feet, stretched his nose to me, and at that point I hit him with another NonCon just below and to the right of his left eye, on his way back down, I hit him again with a 500 gr #13 Solid close to the other bullet, and he was down and out. Now he DID NOT CHARGE... But only because of two reasons, one he was pretty damn sick, and two, I never gave him an opportunity, I had gave him two in the noggin before he could take that first step... So no, he did not charge, but his intentions to do so were not in question, he just never got the opportunity.........




And yes, there was no question of the intentions of that big Aussie buff either........

Are Stories about buffalo "embellished" ? Of course they are, and one good reason I don't read that ignorant shit anymore. I am life member of SCI, and I never even take the magazine out of the wrapper, in fact, I wish they would not even send it, waste of time and paper..... I don't read other ignorant shit in books anymore either, and I don't watch CNN......

Are Cape and Aussie Buffalo tame milk cows like cal was raised with? Of course not, and to equate them to that insults the buffalo. Do they charge? Of course they do, even granddads old bull in the pasture will do that, and he was not wounded!

Of course stories and books are embellished, to think different is naive at best. Regardless of these embellished books, stories, articles, if you think Cape Buffalo and Aussie Buffalo are tame milk cows, and don't give them the respect they deserve, and you actually hunt them and spend time in the field with them, then sooner are later one is going to try and bite you.

By the way, I have taken full on charges by other animals, no embellishment and I am not writing a story, or not even going to tell you about it as its not your concern, truth is, took full charge from a crazy unprovoked mentally ill blesbuck, a wounded roan, unprovoked hippo, and a provoked wounded elephant. Blesbuck was solved at 15 yds, roan at about 20 yds, hippo at 6 yds, and elephant at 3 yds.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
So yeah, they will run off most every single time.

People have over the many yrs, interpreted the running off of cape buffalo[in the hunters direction].. as a so called charge.
NO doubt sometimes it is., usually in the case of a wounded buff.
The remaining herd[in their panic & confusion], may just happen to run off in the hunters direction, after one fires a shot.

Comparing experiences of Cape Buffalo hunting near 100yrs apart, we learn that Buff behaviour/reaction, remains much the same.


More recent Cape Buff hunt..

The hunters seem to get in a good challenging stalk and good kill,
but when the confused-panic stricken large remaining herd is challenged, the whole herd runs away.

side note: [one should note these hunters chose to spine the already downed Bull from a safer distance,without invoking a charge.
compared to ..PH-Mark Sullivan who intentionally waits to get within a few yards of a downed buff, invoking a charge.
IF ones objective is to create action-packed type videos to promote ones hunting service,
then it explains why one would deliberately create such confrontational situations to film.


Now read this much older account of Cape Buff hunting:

" I well remember the mixed awe and apprehension with which I approached a herd of buffalo in my early hunting efforts.
I had read of all the hair-breadth escapes hunters usually had with these animals,
of their diabolical cunning, etc., and I was quite determined not to
wound any. I was also very cautious not to approach too near.

There were many of them out in fairly short grass. I could see them
all clearly, and as we wanted meat I thought I would select a nice
fat cow. With me were about forty young bloods from the tribe
with which I was hunting. They were all fully armed in their
fashion — each man carried two thrusting spears and a rhino or giraffe
hide shield. The reason they carried shields was that we had been
hunting elephant in no man's land, where prowlers from the enemy,
i.e., the neighbouring tribe, might have been met. Telling this
mob to get away back while I did the shooting I left them and
approached the browsing and unsuspicious herd. Selecting what I
thought would be a fat one, I fired. Without pausing or wavering
the whole herd started straight for me, closing together as they came.
I fired again at one of the leaders and then started to get out of their
way. As I ran to the side I met and ran through the forty spear-
men, who were now rushing straight to meet the herd. Stopping
and turning, I was astounded to see these fellows right in among
the buffalo, some retreating cleverly backwards and receiving the
charging animals' rushes on their shields, while others jabbed spears
into their vitals from the sides. No sooner was an animal down than
off they went after the retreating herd. And here, again, all my
preconceived notions were upset, for the natives caught up with the
buffalo again and killed several more. But for the herd's arrival at
a belt of forest, perhaps they would all have been speared. Not a
native was touched. I must say I was rather staggered by what had
taken place ; the awe-inspiring charge was apparently a simple
running away ; the terrific speed, strength and agility of the story-
book buffalo all shown up by a handful of nimble lads armed with soft
iron spears ; the formidable buffalo made to cut a very poor figure,
and the white man with his wonderful gun made to look extremely
foolish.

This incident put me right about buffalo, I think, for I have
killed scores and scores since, and I have never had any trouble with
them. I have shot them in West Africa, where they are usually met
in thick stuff and in long grass, and also in the Liberian forests, east
of the Nile and in the Congo — and invariably with small bores. The
most killing bullet I found to be the solid.

The stampede or rush straight towards the shot was a fairly fre-
quent occurrence in my experience ; and if one were convinced that
the animals were charging, one would have to write down the buffalo
as an extremely dangerous animal were it not for the ease with which
they are killed with end-on delivered solid bullets. Of course, flesh
wounds are no good. The vitals must be raked. But in thick stuff
the target is so close and so big that no one should miss it, as for all
game of this nature a reliable magazine rifle is streets ahead of a
double. In a mix-up with buffalo in bush it is sometimes necessary
to fire four or even five shots in rapid succession, and for this the
double is mere handicap." - WDM Bell


People will notice that in various different thread topics, I can be seen to quote findings & experiences
from the extensive careers of Mr.Bell and Mr.Selby. I do this because,like in Mark Sullivan words,
I dont like to simply rely on the words & experiences of... 'rank amatuers who know less than nothing'

If people are prepared to accept M.Sullivans shared knowledge and experience as worthwhile,
then that can only elevate the value of the extensive experiences shared by Mr.Bell and Mr.Selby -

" I met at close range, in high grass, three
bull buffalo. Having at the moment a large native following more
or less on the verge of starvation, as the country was rather gameless,
I had no hesitation about getting all three. One stood with head up
about 10 yds. away and facing me, while the others appeared as
rustles in the grass behind him. Instantly ready as I always was,
carrying my own rifle, I placed a -276 solid in his chest. He fell
away in a forward lurch, disclosing another immediately behind him
and in a similar posture. He also received a 276, falling on his nose
and knees. The third now became visible through the commotion,
affording a chance at his neck as he barged across my front. A
bullet between neck and shoulder laid him flat. All three died
without further trouble, and the whole affair lasted perhaps four or
five seconds." - WDM Bell.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
..Now he DID NOT CHARGE... But only because of two reasons, one he was pretty damn sick, and two, I never gave him an opportunity, I had gave him two in the noggin before he could take that first step... So no, he did not charge, but his intentions to do so were not in question, he just never got the opportunity.........

What you did is what a sensible,mature, quick minded hunter would do,
ie; despatch the beast quick & humanely, before the possibility of a charge.
Presuming to know what that buff was intending to do next[just before u finished him], is however, pure speculation.


Below we read that Bell, like you, ended a Buffaloes[not attempt] but mere potential to charge,
but he sensibly leaves it up to pure speculation as to what that Buff would have actually done,
had he not terminated it as quick as he did.

quote:

"..even when I came suddenly on a buffalo bull lying wounded in thick stuff, he did not charge.
This animal had been mauled by lion, and according to all the rules should have charged as soon as he
became aware of my approach. What he would have done had I not put a bullet through his neck I do not know. Perhaps he might have charged. - WDM Bell.

quote:

Presuming to know what that buff was intending to do next[just before u finished him], is however, pure speculation.

Not correct.... When you have been in the field with them, you can clearly understand their intent.

Not all buffalo are created equal. I have been around ones that SHOULD HAVE CHARGED.... But did not and had no intent of doing so, even when I pushed them very hard, you can read the signs if you know what you are looking for.

I have pushed others in the past, their intent become clear as they turned around to face me, however, they never got the chance to put the plan to work.

Reading a book and trying to apply that to other situations is not viable, as each situation stands on its own.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Reading a book and trying to apply that to other situations is not viable, as each situation stands on its own.

Michael

I agree not all buffalo are created equal...and each situation stands it own.
They can be rather unpredictable in some circumstances,
SO, Im am just trying to figure out how you regularly know exactly what each Buffalo intends to do before he actually does it,
when people with much more extensive experience[actual long term PH/poacher careers] hunting buffalo,
still speculated on what each individual buffalo will do, or might have done, had he not finished it earlier.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
.. When is SA this past June a PH told me when we were following some tracks, "Those buff are waiting for us" and later, "They are going from tree to tree to ambush us."
.... I can only think of one other hunter who was so full of shit from the stories he told.
Cheers, genets.
Cal

... I figure some paying hunters actually like to hear that sort of crap spewing from their PHs mouth.

Michael,

There are those who have and those who have only read books about those who have! Some of those readers have become very proficient at "cut and paste" without any first hand knowledge from the field.

Nuff said!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Michael,

There are those who have and those who have only read books about those who have! Some of those readers have become very proficient at "cut and paste" without any first hand knowledge from the field.

Nuff said!!

Exactly.....

Attempting to apply the words and deeds of someone who hunted africa 100 years ago to the africa of today is not unlike comparing the Wright brothers aircraft to the space shuttle. In other words, the two cannot be compared. Unfortunately there is a guy in Oz who has never been to africa and does not understand and refuses to accept this simple fact. I keep him on my ignore list because he is an incredible bore.

I spent eight days hunting Cape Buffalo in Zim with CM Safaris at the end of 2008. Myles and Buzz can keep one enthralled for a couple hours with first or second hand tales about hunters and PH's being hurt by Cape Buffalo. Myles and Buzz's junior partner got a horn thru the backside the next year iirc. Nearly every PH I have talked to at SCI or in the field has a story about someone they know who has been gored.
Not so with Water Buffalo.

I'm sure that Australia's Top End outfitters will be devastated should they read this and learn that you won't be coming here to hunt our domesticated water buffalo. The knowledge that you could have imparted upon them in relation to our local bovine behaviour patterns would have been invaluable I'm sure.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Attempting to apply the words and deeds of someone who hunted africa 100 years ago to the africa of today is not unlike comparing the Wright brothers aircraft to the space shuttle. In other words, the two cannot be compared.

As technologically different as the Wrights machine and Space shuttle are,
The principles of flight remain exactly the same.
And whether it be an old or new man-made flying contraption
or any natural species of bird that have been flying for many millions of years.
They all still rely on exactly the same principles of flight.
Now,
Take Cape buff from before Bells/Wright bros time,
and from Bells/Wright Bros time,
and from when the Space shuttle first came to be
and from now that the SpaceShuttle era is no longer,

and I will say that I am rather confident that cape buffalo have remained much the same through all of that.

For those who believe that over such period, Cape Buff have become more or less resilient to projectiles and death by such,
or have become more or less predictable in their actions/behaviour,
I am yet to see any supportive evidence.

However I do see evidence in Bells extensive experience based writings that Cape Buff much more often than not, chose to flee.
Todd Williams himself also states Cape Buff will much more often choose to flee.
So it appears that views from hunters some 100yrs apart,
indicate that the likely actions/behaviour of Cape Buff has remained much the same.
and
JUst like we do in our times, Bell himself also heard numerous accumulated stories of supposed Cape Buff charges
from both during and before his time, but never experienced one himself, even after slaying some 700 of the beasts.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I spent eight days hunting Cape Buffalo in Zim with CM Safaris at the end of 2008. Myles and Buzz can keep one enthralled for a couple hours with first or second hand tales about hunters and PH's being hurt by Cape Buffalo. Myles and Buzz's junior partner got a horn thru the backside the next year iirc. Nearly every PH I have talked to at SCI or in the field has a story about someone they know who has been gored.
Not so with Water Buffalo.

That doesnt necessarily indicate Cape Buff as being more dangerous than Asian buff.
However, it could indicate that there have been a number of people who have failed
to deliver a 'stopping' CNS shot on Cape Buff.


THe other thing that intrigues me is, how all those PHs & clients managed to get themselves attacked/gored
apparently all failing to sufficiently predict & pre-empt the actions of the buffalo.

Then we have a person like 'Michael458' who is able to accurately read the mind of any Buffalo he comes across
allowing him to prevent any chance of such dangerous & undesirable incidents[like charges & gorings] from ever actually occurring.

Is 'michael458' an absolute super rare freak of human ability when it comes to reading Buffalo?
or should we just accept that PHs are human & fallible and that charges & gorings will happen every now and then.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Matt:
The shoot was fun and even more so was seeing old friends (Graeme W., Mick G., Tony O.) and meeting many new friends. Also, seeing some fine rifles was a treat including a Holland Royal ejector in .600. It sure showed up my old boat anchor Wilkes .600!
Cheers, mate.
Cal

Cal, It was good to meet you in Darwin. Thanks for letting me have a shot with your 600. I didn't think your 600 was a boat anchor, but if you want to toss it in the sea, please toss it my way instead!!

I haven't hunted the cape buffalo yet, so I can't comment on them, but after the Darwin BGR championships I went into Arnhemland for my first Buffalo hunt. It is something everyone should do if they get a chance. It was great fun, exciting, and listening to stories from other hunters, and readiing other posts here I would expect that whether it is cape buffalo, asiatic buffalo or scrub bulls (feral cattle) you are hunting, they all require some respect, because they are all big enough to kill you, and they are all tough enough to soak up a lot of lead, and not necessarily drop to the shot.

I took three, two bulls and a cow, with my 505 using 600gn Woodleighs. Many of the animals we looked at were reasonably close, 30 to 40 yards, and while none of them charged, they didn't really run off scared either, most checked us out for a while before deciding to trot off.

Of the ones I took, one bull went about 30 yards and fell dead. The first shot was on the point of the shoulder quartering on a bit. In the time he took to go that distance I got a second shot into him, breaking the back leg, but it wasn't really necessary. He was dead when we walked up to him.

The cow went about 70 yards, after a quatering on shot on the point of the shoulder, I got a second shot in as she ran across, which was low through the bottom of the heart, and a third on the back end as she turned away. Then she fell over and was dead when we got up to her. I don't think the second or third shot were necessary, but I was told "keep shooting until they are down", so that's what I did.

The other bull was quartering away and the first shot went in behind the shoulder. It would have taken out the lungs and heart. At the shot he turned towards me, so I put a second shot into his ribs, about six inches behind the shoulder, and he kept turning, turned compeltely around and ran off with blood gushing (about a 6 foot fountain of blood) from the exit wound near the back of the ribs on the other side. That was from the second shot. He kept going so I put a third into him, aiming for the spine, but it was a bit too low, he kept going, now going directly away. So another 600 gn Woodleigh found its mark breaking the hip. Finally after about 300 yards he went into mud hole and fell over. We thought he was done, but when we walked around to the front of him he must have heard us, and lifted his head. As soon as he saw us he tried to get up on his feet. I am convinced he would have charged me down, but I was ready with a round loaded and finished him with one through the brain before he could even get half up.


The point of all this is that from my experience the asiatic buffalo are tough animals, and not really afraid of us. They are great hunting, and from everything I have read and listen to from other hunters, so are cape buffalo, and so are scrub bulls.

Good post - who did you hunt with 338?

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I spent eight days hunting Cape Buffalo in Zim with CM Safaris at the end of 2008. Myles and Buzz can keep one enthralled for a couple hours with first or second hand tales about hunters and PH's being hurt by Cape Buffalo. Myles and Buzz's junior partner got a horn thru the backside the next year iirc. Nearly every PH I have talked to at SCI or in the field has a story about someone they know who has been gored.
Not so with Water Buffalo.

We kill ours properly in the first instance.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Presuming to know what that buff was intending to do next[just before u finished him], is however, pure speculation.

Not correct.... When you have been in the field with them, you can clearly understand their intent.

Not all buffalo are created equal. I have been around ones that SHOULD HAVE CHARGED.... But did not and had no intent of doing so, even when I pushed them very hard, you can read the signs if you know what you are looking for.

I have pushed others in the past, their intent become clear as they turned around to face me, however, they never got the chance to put the plan to work.

Reading a book and trying to apply that to other situations is not viable, as each situation stands on its own.

Michael

Michael,

I think you know your buffalo very well.

Of all the buffalo I have shot, we have never had a charge.

I think this was due to the fact that we never gave them any chance of doing so.

Others we thought they MIGHT charge, but at the end changed their mind and never did charge.

I shot a bull once lying down about 100 yards away. He was the second of two we had seen earlier in the morning, and managed to shoot one.

We followed this for a few hours, and he was lying under a tree about 100 yards away.

Most of him was hidden by grass, and fired a shot at him intending to put a bullet into his chest.

He took off and disappeared at the shot - running straight as he was lying, and we could not see him.

A few seconds later, we saw him heading straight for us. My PH was screaming "WATCH OUT! WATCH OUT! HE IS COMING!"

When he appeared he was about 20-25 yards away. He saw us, but decided to turn to his left and keep running instead of charging us. I managed a quick shot that broke his neck, and dropped him.

We have approached a number of wounded buffalo, which we thought most likely would charge, but we never gave them the chance as we killed them.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
..................
We have approached a number of wounded buffalo, which we thought most likely would charge, but we never gave them the chance as we killed them.

Saeed, you never gave them the chance to decide how they want to die?
You need to watch more Sullivan videos

quote:

Michael,

I think you know your buffalo very well.

Thank You Saeed.......

quote:

I think this was due to the fact that we never gave them any chance of doing so.

100% spot on............


I think I will continue to trust my experience and intuition, it has not let me down yet with buffalo. As I trust your intuition has not let you down either.

Still nothing like putting bullet to buffalo!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Most of him was hidden by grass, and fired a shot at him intending to put a bullet into his chest.

He took off and disappeared at the shot - running straight as he was lying, and we could not see him.

A few seconds later, we saw him heading straight for us. My PH was screaming "WATCH OUT! WATCH OUT! HE IS COMING!"

When he appeared he was about 20-25 yards away. He saw us, but decided to turn to his left and keep running instead of charging us. I managed a quick shot that broke his neck, and dropped him.

Saeeds description notes the buff was running in his direction even before the buff knows Saeeds whereabouts,
then when Buff does see Saeed at 20-25yd, the buff actually makes notable effort to effectively avoid Saeed.[Saeed was blocking his intended escape path?]

Some easily exciteable or easily impressionable hunters may conveniently perceive that as an attempted (but aborted), Cape-Buff charge.

Lets make clear that there is distinct difference between:

A. - an animal in highly distressed-panicked state simply running in the direction of a hunter [in the case of a panicked herd, it would simply be a stampede]
sometimes they can warded off, other times they wont be detered from taking that escape path.
B. - an animal that is bluff charging
C. - an animal that is not bluffing in its efforts & intent to charge.
D. - an actual intentional physical contact/or 'attack' toward the hunter. [a charge does not yet constitute an attack.]

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

We have approached a number of wounded buffalo, which we thought most likely would charge, but we never gave them the chance as we killed them.

The way some people choose to hunt, results in much less incidences of charges and actual physical attacks.

Others hunters on the other hand, may regularly allow situations to unfold to the point where the potential threat
of a charge & attack,..becomes more probable,..making DG hunting more eventful & dangerous than it really has to be.

Hiya Matt!

Where in Massailand as when I hunted there it was lousy with Lions and Buff were a challenge/spooky. Took a charge from a wounded 45"er. One of my most vivid memories.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

Some people will tell you that Capes are naturally more wary, spooky etc... but that is most likely just conditioning in certain areas.

I have even seen that in Cape Buffalo from different areas. Particularly notable in one area without Lion compared with those areas that have Lion.

Makes sense to me.

A friend of mine hunted in Masailand last year and she said the Cape buffalo (thousands) were standing around like dumb-arses. On the contrary - I just finished a hunt for Asiatic buffalo, some bulls that were particularly sneaky - having been pursued regularly before and were really switched-on. We ended-up taking a bull that I knew, on a remote swamp, one that tried to take a piece of me when I was there last year hunting pigs. He showed the same agressive behhaviour this time around, right before we killed him.

What I am getting at is it is, IMO, more about the environment and local and situational circumstances than the animal themselves.