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I have spent the whole day trying to find different machine rests for rifles on the internet, but all I can find is the Lahti and the Hyskore.Does anyone know of other makers of this kind of rests? I am planning to construct and make my own machine rest so I`m looking for ideas.If there is someone who has built one or have a idea where I can find pictures,please tell me  Made in Norway! | ||
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I`m not talking about a rail gun,but a device to test hunting rifles.A kind of shooting bench/rest where you ca fire the gun remotly.Easyest way to explain is that it will be kind of a "ransom rest" for rifles Made in Norway! | |||
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magnum What are you "testing" for??? Accuracy? Then a rail gun is the answer. To see if the rifle will come apart?? Then an old automible tire and a long piece of string is what you need. If you want to see how a hunting rifle/load combination will perform, I don't think eliminating the human factor is the right way to go. A solid shooting bench, a very good front and rear rest, combined with a very high power scope, a set of good wind flags and a calm day is your best bet. JMHO  Ray Arizona Mountains | |||
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I am asking this because I am going to do a project for my engineering studies and I tought this could be an exciting ting to construct and build at our tecnical university. And yes, I want to find out what happens if the human factor is eliminated...... Made in Norway! | |||
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Do search for Jim Owens and his National Match Rest. best-o-luck | |||
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Another term to plug into your search engine is 'universal receiver.' | |||
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Thanks! The national match rest is very similar to the hyskore. But I think all of these rests designed to hold the gun and dampen the recoil look fragile..I think my upcoming design are going to be a hole lot more rigid. I am also thinkin of an adjustable pneumatic recoil damping adjustable for each gun/caliber. Made in Norway! | |||
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God Bless Engineers. "Striving to complicate, it's a way of life" | |||
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??? Made in Norway! | |||
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MD Two great looking rails! Magnum has already opted to not use a rail but maybe after seeing yours he will change his mind. A Q for you. The riser blocks for mounting the scope. Are those made by you? I have seen some that Bruce Thom makes that are tapered for 1000 yard rifles and have been trying to find a source of others. I have one of J. Mattingly's that bolt to a Panda or Davidson dovetail but am looking for one that is not quite as high. Ray Arizona Mountains | |||
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It is not possible for me to view the pictures above..Is there a web-site where I can view the pictures? Made in Norway! | |||
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The gun's belong to Joe Krupa. | |||
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There are distinct differences between "rail guns" and "machine rests." A "machine rest" holds a complete rifle or pistol for testing the complete firearm or airgun. "Rail guns" only have the barreled action clamped in their hardware and are used to test ammunition or compete in "unlimited" benchrest matches for group shooting.  There are a few highpower competitive shooters who use a machine rest designed back in the early 1960's. These pictures are of the one used showing one of David Tubb's rifles clamped in it. It consists of a 3/4ths inch thick aluminum plate about 8 by 30 inches clamped or bolted to a heavy bench (cubic yard of concrete?). It has parts attached to it providing three contact points for the cradle that has three rods attached to a 30-pound cradle sliding on them. The base has elevation and windage adjustments to position the test group on the target. A complete rifle's clamped in the cradle; two jaws hold the forend where ones hand normally would and two ball-tipped cross bolts grip steel recesses epoxied in the stock just in front of the recoil pad. The best thing about this one is it's 3-point suspension; best for repeatability and rigidity. Note the cradle's left fron and rear center guide rods ride in V blocks. The cradle's right front guide rod rides on a round bar. The perfect system for free recoil and the best repeatability.  With a 13-pound .308 Win. target rifle held in this fixture, it will recoil about 3 inches when fired. Standing behind it and after shooting a round, one can push the cradle holding the rifle forward back into battery (against the stop) while reloading, then fire another shot. Repeatability from shot to shot is less than 100th MOA.  A friend used his extensively many years ago testing rifles and ammo. One early, windless morning he tested some specially selected bullets in his wood-stocked pre-'64 Model 70 match rifle in .308 Win. He fired several 10-shot groups ranging from .8 to 1.4 inches. . .at 600 yards. He also fired 40 consecutive shots in about 20 minutes into 1.9 inches, again at 600 yards. No benchrest rifle has ever done that well; conventional or rail gun. Oh, one other thing; all the ammo used full-length sized cases; neck sizing never produced accuracy at that level. I thought about having one made back in the 1980's but its cost of materials and machine shop labor back then was about $2000. Nowadays, probably near twice that much. US military rifle teams have used similar ones to test their match conditioned semiauto rifles. The best 7.62mm NATO M1 or M14NM rifles would shoot 4 inches at 600 yards with good commercial ammo or handloads in what they called "accuracy cradles." I watched some Remington 700 sniper rifles being tested in one for US Navy SEAL Teams; at 600 yards they would stay inside 5 inches at 600 yards with selected lots of M118 match ammo. These three pictures and 12 others showing the parts detail can also be seen on: http://www.flickr.com/photos/12787226@N00/sets/72157594303093714/detail/ Bart B. | |||
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Thank you wery much Bart, this was exactly what I was thinking of!If anyone else has pictures of similar rests,let me know! Made in Norway! | |||
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Here's a machine rest made by Gehman in Germany. It's used for .22 rimfire and air rifles.  Kurt Thune in Finland makes this one for .22 rimfire and air rifles.  Bart B. | |||
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A rail gun tests only the barreled action and the ammo. It doesn't test how the barreled action is fit to the stock. And that's gonna make a huge difference. With us humans being the greatest variable in the shooting system (system = rifle + ammo + human), best rifle and ammo accuracy is only determined by eliminating this variable. Even benchresters shoot smallest groups with heavy rifles resting on something and their 2-oz. trigger's barely touched without any other part of the shooter touching the rifle; it free recoils (without any resistance caused by someone holding the rifle) exactly the same for each shot. Us humans never hold a rifle to our shoulder exactly the same for each shot. When we do, accuracy suffers. A good example of the human variable was demonstrated many years ago with a scoped .308 Win. match rifle. The rifle would shoot under .25 MOA at 100 yards. Several people at a public range were asked to shoot it off their rests (sandbags, other soft or hard topped devices) the way the tested their rifles and given 10 rounds of match grade ammo to do it. Their groups ranged from .75 to 1.5 MOA at 100 yards. Bart B. | |||
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Do this rest have any kind of dampening of the recoil?It`s my plan to mount some kind of gas dampers to the rest for recoil dampening Made in Norway! | |||
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No, recoil dampening buffers are not used. The rifle is gently held by the shooter's trigger hand on its pistol grip then the trigger's pulled. Weight of the cradle and rifle is heavy enough that it recoils only a few inches. Then the rifle's reloaded and the cradle with clamped rifle is pushed back forward until the stop under the cradle contacts the front hinge plate; ready to fire again. Depending on the recoil a rifle has, weight could be added to the cradle so even a heavy rifle chambered for the 50 caliber machine gun cartridge could be used. And thinner/lighter materials could be used for mild recoiling rifles such as a .22 rimfire or smaller 22 caliber centerfire rifles. If one wanted to add recoil buffers, they could. But they would have to easily let the cradle return to battery. And the machine rest would have to be properly tested to ensure the buffers had no degrading effect on accuracy. Bart B. | |||
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check out the Dick's Uni-Rest. I have one and use it for all my rifle loadwork accuracy testing. Rich | |||
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Nice benefit of using such is that any change of POI setting of a scope will show up. Main problem in designing and building such a rest is designing it to solidly hold the gun in place. Gun tends to torgue a bit when fired in addition to other forces caused by firing. One simple way to lock in a rifle (conventionally stocked) is to remove the butt plate/recoil pad and fasten the butt of the rifle to an upright plate using screws into the butt. Fasten the front of the rifle down using the front sling stud or hole. Makes building a rest fairly simple to do. Can be made from wood with basic wood shop tools. Need a sketch? Bob Shaffer | |||
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With this machine rest, cross bolts in the rear mount have ball bearings in their ends that fit into 45 degree coned escutcheons epoxied and cross screwed into the butt stock just in front of the recoil lug. This prevents any torquing. Without them, torquing would be a problem. At the front clamps, they have leather strips between them and the forend of the stock. This clamping arrangement works well enough to let at least 50 shots stay inside 2 inches at 600 yards. Bart B. | |||
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QUOTE: "A friend used his extensively many years ago testing rifles and ammo. One early, windless morning he tested some specially selected bullets in his wood-stocked pre-'64 Model 70 match rifle in .308 Win. He fired several 10-shot groups ranging from .8 to 1.4 inches. . .at 600 yards. He also fired 40 consecutive shots in about 20 minutes into 1.9 inches, again at 600 yards. No benchrest rifle has ever done that well; conventional or rail gun. Oh, one other thing; all the ammo used full-length sized cases; neck sizing never produced accuracy at that level." Sure he did  Bob Shaffer | |||
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What makes you think he didn't? Wanna see a 20-shot 3.3-inch group at 800 yards I shot with full-length sized .308 Win. cases? I know it's hard for most folks to believe the accuracy folks attain with lesser known rifle, rests, and ammo configurations. Don't bet against it. Bart B. | |||
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Bart, I do think that you got a bit carried away with the "less than 100th of a M.O.A.' What rifle did your friend have in the rest when he shot these groups? What are some of the lesser known rifles that you speak of? Bob | |||
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Regarding my comment on repeatability: "With a 13-pound .308 Win. target rifle held in this fixture, it will recoil about 3 inches when fired. Standing behind it and after shooting a round, one can push the cradle holding the rifle forward back into battery (against the stop) while reloading, then fire another shot. Repeatability from shot to shot is less than 100th MOA." That repeatability is referring to how accurate the cradle returns to battery then aligns the rifle on the target. Not how accurate the rifle will shoot from it. I'll accept a demerit or two for not explaining that clear enough. I borrowed one and measured the three axes positioning of the cradle to the base with dial indicators after sliding the cradle back, then pushing it back into battery. Less than .0001-inch error in windage and elevation on a 30 inch distance between front to back reference points was observed. And a 25X scope mounted on the rifle checking rifle alignment showed less than .005-inch error on a 50-yard target. That's less than 1/100th MOA repositioning error. It's the "lesser known rifle, rests, and ammo configurations" I referred to; not a specific make or model. I meant how the rifles and ammo were assembled. When my friend shot those groups around an inch at 600 yards, he used a pre-'64 Winchester 70 action with a Hart 1:11 twist barrel epoxy bedded in a solid wood stock. Bullets were Lapua 185-gr. rebated base boattail match bullets. He and a guy from Sierra Bullets had made a collet to hold them while spinning them in a Dremel Moto Tool at about 30,000 rpm. A current meter was connected to the power cord. The more unbalanced the bullets were, the more current would fluctuate. About 10% of the bullets spun true with no current fluctuations which indicated very well balanced bullets. Some would show some unbalance. A few bullets were unbalanced enough they would fly out of the collet and bounce off the ceiling and walls of the room. Only the "perfect" bullets were used in the accuracy test. One of the 10-shot groups just under an inch was used in a Lapua Bullets ad in an early 1970's issue of the NRA American Rifleman magazine. Full-length sized WCC58 match cases were used holding 42 grains of IMR4064 and primed with either a Winchester or Remington primer. Bullets were seated to just engage the lands. In the dozen or so of these machine rests I know to exist, their owners used box magazine Winchester Model 70 or an occasional square-sleeved Remington 700 actions conventionally (not pillar) epoxy bedded in solid or laminated wood stocks. Or Tubb 2000 rifles such as the one pictured. The only action truing on the Win. and Rem. actions was to square the receiver face with the barrel tenon thread axis, lap the lugs to full contact, then square the bolt face with the chamber axis. Hart, Obermeyer, Shilen and a few other barrel were used. Bart B. | |||
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I'm sorry Bart, it ain't gonna happen with the device that you are showing. Butch | |||
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If you want to challenge someone about the accuracy attained, I suggest you contact David Tubb at 1-806-323-9488 then tell him that he and his friends who have used this machine rest holding complete rifles really don't get the accuracy they do. All I'm doing is passing on what others have observed. Bart B. | |||
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Bart, I'm not going to get into this anymore with you. The deviation of your loads alone won't allow it let alone a top heavy machine rest that doesn't have a precise tracking system. I could go on, but this is the last you will hear from me on it. Butch | |||
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I imagine that David will appreciate his phone number on public display. Bob | |||
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Sorry to hear there's a fire within you that can't be quenched. Here's some watering down info that may help you cool off. In a 1991 issue of Handloader magazine, an article about the .308 Win. ammo developed for the 1992 World Long Range Championships (Palma and 1000-yard matches) was published. It had a picture of the 2.8-inch 20-shot 600-yard group testing random samples of new, unfired, Winchester cases primed with Federal 210M's and charged with 45.3 grains of IMR4895 metered to a spread of about 3/10ths grain behind a Sierra 155-gr. bullet. Ammo was made using two Dillon 1050 progressive loading machines. The rifle was a Win. 70 with a 30-inch long barrel clamped in one of these machine rests. Not too shabby for virgin brass and metered powder charges from progressive loaders. Check these pictures showing the details of construction. It's pretty obvious that the round-bar/V-block system of a tracking (alignment?) system is as close to perfection as one's gonna get. Machine Rest Detail Photos Bart B. | |||
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If you are saying that the handguard [or whatever it is] is repeatable to a tenth, I think that you are dreaming. If you also believe that the gun rag touts don't push a product you are more of a dreamer. Bob | |||
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I imagine he will, too. It came from his web site: David Tubb's Web Site Bart B. | |||
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This machine rest has never been offered for sale except by its owner to someone else wanting it as a used one. Each one was made from a set of plans circulated among highpower competitors. So there was no "touts" pushing this thing in Handloader magazine; just an article of interest. Bart B. | |||
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Bart, I am truly interested in these lesser known guns and ammo. configuration that you speak of. If you have any secrets on how to assemble a rifle or certridges for them I would love to hear them. I make every effort that I know of to put together a ctg. as accuratly as possible, and have been for a few years. As I say, anything new that you are doing to achieve the accuracy that you claim will be greatly appreciated. Likewise any improved methods of assembling an accurate rifle. Thanks Bob | |||
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Check with http://www.midwayusa.com | |||
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"No benchrest rifle has ever done that well; conventional or rail gun." Don't you think that BR shooters would have tried the same techniques to obtain the same level of accuracy? They have done or will do ANYTHING to obtain the very best accuracy. I think there's some mixup or typo somewhere's - I'd believe .8 to 1.4 inches at 100 yards OR .8 to 1.4 FEET at 600 yards. 40 shots into 1.9 inches at 600 yards? Maybe it was 600 feet? "Wanna see a 20-shot 3.3-inch group at 800 yards I shot with full-length sized .308 Win. cases?" Ok, I'll bite. You do this consistently too right? If so, show us the occasional groups smaller than this too. Oh, be sure the witnesses signatures are shown too. Not to be mean, but you're claiming some things pretty hard to believe by long experienced shooters. Bob Shaffer | |||
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