Bart,
The 1000 Yard BR club in Pa has been shooting groups for decades without matching what you are talking about.

I was at an auction sale a few years ago that had a device somewhat similiar in concept to the one showed, but this one was an engineering excercise.

all adjustment were micrometer click with gauges and precision machined brass fixtures and several cradles for different weapons, if memory serves, the one in the cradle was for a 50 BMG machine gun.

This thing was huge and was mounted on a trailer, with down riggers and built in levels and various adjustments and dampening devices with a manual the size of a New York City phonebook, obviously written by an engineer with a degree in phsyics.

According to the man's son this platform with a suitably accurate weapon, with carefully selected components and loading practices, it was possible to put the rounds into one ragged hole at various ranges out to a thousand yards and beyond.

But you still need to be able to read wind and deal with various conditions, that will change as the day goes on to accomplish this, beside spending a considerable ammount of time sorting components to eliminate variables and to get everything as perfect as is humanly possible.

It went for around 8000 dollars, to a guy reputed to be a custom ammunition manufacturer, with government contracts.

So, are miniscule groups at extended yardage possible with such a set up? without a doubt, but the work involved to get there, would only appeal to someone who was extremely methodical or was getting paid to do it.

YMMV

In an unlimited BR shoot, rail guns[the ultimate in barreled action holding devices] are beaten frequently by unlimited bag guns. If you are saying that it was possible to put 5 rounds into ragged holes beyond 300 yards or so, I would want to see that.

Guns in a compettion versus guns as part of a machine rest and under controlled condition are not readily comparable.

You have a set time limit to work against in competition and have to take your shots, even when conditions are not totally optimal, but if you are testing as part of a project and you do not have a set time limit and can sit and wait for the optimimum conditions to fire each shot, this can lead to results outside those that can be found at a competition and at ranges beyond what one would believe possible.

Can you verify that or is it just heresay?
Butch

Verify that controlled laboratory type testing (shooting in this case) will often give you different results than an in the field under pressure type of testing. (in this case competition)

I thought that was self evident.

Maltese, If you have never seen a rail I can see you saying this. A well made rail gun is every bit as accurate as any machine rest and more so. I will guarentee you that there are BR shooters that can read conditions better then someone with less experience, shooting in calm conditions [certainly not myself]. And you are correct, the shooting that you described before, at those ranges, are impossible to believe.

Maltese Falcon, you are making an assumption and not verifing your claim. You are saying it is self evident, where are the facts? We all can assume a lot of things, but it doesn't make it a fact. Show me the proof not claims of it.
Butch

Why would it not be self evident?

Laboratory testing all shot fired in a shooting tunnel, temperature humidity lighting, round and weapon temperature carefully controlled with all the time needed to complete testing and the human element mitigated.

Competition all shots fired outside, subject to variable winds and lighting conditions, humidity and temperature variation and a strictly enforced time limit and the human element thrown in.

Barnes, Speer, Winchester, Remington etc. all conduct testing under laboratory conditions, that is a verified fact.

Call any of the companies mentioned and ask them, better yet go to thier facilities and take the tours offered, ask the techs and they will tell you quite clearly that results in the lab often cannot be duplicated outside it, and they will tell you why.

I could fill page after page with "proof" if you will, but it is only my word and experience and personal knowledge and then the circular arguement would start, with further calls for more proof and I know from past experience, that nothing will satisfy some people, so I am not going to get sucked into that particular quagmire.

Are you Bart's brother? Your post make as much sense as his, a lot of talk and no proof. None of these people have a 1000 yd wind tunnel. I am familiar with tunnel shooting and they ain't without conditions that let them shoot .0000. I'm going to do you like Bart[simpson] and quit wasting my time on your nonsense.
Butch

The world record for a group at 100 yards IN A MATCH is .009 inch, hand controled rifle on a rest.[outdoors] If you are saying that Rem, Win, Speer, or any factory can equal that with their guns, I feel the urge to ring the B.S. bell. The conditions may have been perfect, I don't know, but they were no better then in the tunnel. I am curious just what a properly put together rail would do under your conditions, I most certainly bet my last buck that it would outshoot any gun in a machine rest.

Actually I was a bit sidetracked in formulating a reply to two posts at once, addressing neither question satisfactorily, my bad.

I would not say that any regular off the shelf rifle was capable of beating the accuracy of a custom match rifle, I was replying to the question of comparing a match situation to one in a laboratory set up making the assumption of equal rifles, sorry if I didn't spell it out, we can compare them, but we are not really comparing them equally, that's it.

As far as the asinine question about being bart's brother, that is one of the reasons, I choose not to get into this proof circle jerk, because when a party starts to resort to insults, instead of presenting information/evidence to the contrary of one's assertion, then there is really no point in continuing the discussion, with said party.


As for the rail gun set up under controlled conditions in a lab, would be interesting and set up side by side with a standard match rifle in a commercial quality machine rest, that I would go to see, since both go along way to removing the human factor and would definitely answer what was more capable.

quote:

Originally posted by Maltese Falcon:
As for the rail gun set up under controlled conditions in a lab, would be interesting and set up side by side with a standard match rifle in a commercial quality machine rest, that I would go to see, since both go along way to removing the human factor and would definitely answer what was more capable.

Sierra Bullets tests their bullets for accuracy with rail guns. Their later loading manuals have pictures of them. I've seen some of their 10-shot test groups at 100 and 200 yards and when the best cores are seated in the best jackets then uniformly formed in the final pointing machine, the 30 caliber match bullets would be in the ones (.100 to .119 MOA) with an occasional group down in the zeros (.000 to .099 MOA) for a few thousand bullets. The pointing machine forms the ogive on the cored jacket and spits them out at about 90 per second.

Sierra used to sell hand labeled plain brown boxes of a thousand 30 caliber match bullets specially culled from the pointing machine when test groups were in the ones. These super accurate bullets still had the sizing lanolin on them and were not ran though the normal quality inspections. Sometimes, a few in the box would have jacket folds and these were scrapped. But they shot about 30% better than those polished bright and sold in green boxes. They quit this special 30 caliber match bullet offerings in the late 1980's when they moved from California to Missouri.

I've watched a Win. 70 Hart barreled .308 Win. match rifle in a machine rest like the one I posted pictures of shoot 10-shot groups in the ones at 100 yards with these ugly, dull, greasy bullets. Same accuracy that Sierra got with their rail guns.

Bart, if your machine rest is the most accurate device ever devised how is it that Sierra uses a rail to test their bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
Bart, if your machine rest is the most accurate device ever devised how is it that Sierra uses a rail to test their bullets.

I don't know if that machine rest is the most accurate device; I've never made that claim.

Ask Sierra Bullets why they use a rail gun; they're better qualified to answer your question than I. But a rail gun with a split block to hold a really thick and heavy barrel is probably the best device to test bullets for accuracy. They're easy to change barreled actions in and eliminates receiver rigidity and bedding issues. US military arsenals have been using rail guns of one type or another for about 100 years to test small arms ammo for accuracy.

Butch,
check the record books at the NBRSA or IBS websites. The all time record for smallest group at 100 yards is .007", for a 5-shot group; fired with a rest front and bag rear with a 10.5lb, with scope, rifle. The one year I went to the Super Shoot at Kelblys in Ohio I saw light varmint rifles in 6PPC routinely shoot 5-shot groups at 300yards you could hide with a dime. Sixty shooters at a time on the firing line, and the smallest group would always be under .050" at 100y and under .80" at 200y. These are all from an adjustable front rest and sandbag rear. A good railgun is not the ultimate, as the Unlimited Class rifles do not hold any absolute accuracy records as far as I know.

Rich

b beyer,

Sierra uses a railgun because they have a universal receiver that they screw barrels in and out in two minutes. The machine rest needs a complete rifle, and that is simply too time consuming when you may be testing several bullet/powder combinations in a day, like when they update a reloading manual. The machine rest is designed to test YOUR rifle! The bullet/barrel/powder companies are testing multiple caliber/cartridge/powder combinations in an eight hour day.
You and Butch are comparing apples and oranges here. Go to a benchrest match and be amazed!

Rich

been there, done that, got a few trophies for my troubles.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
A good railgun is not the ultimate, as the Unlimited Class rifles do not hold any absolute accuracy records as far as I know.

Good point. A bagged benchrest rifle is easier and faster to hold off for wind changes than a rail gun. Which may well be why more records are shot with bagged rifles than rail guns.

Note that records are the smallest groups shot, not the normal/average/typical that each shooting device produces. I don't think there's much difference between a complete rifle and a rail gun. As long as all the variables in each are reduced to zero (or as close to zero as possible), one would be hard pressed to prove one type is more accurate than another.

I believe the rcord 5 shot group is .009". Maybe that .007" was a typo. Most Unlimited matches consist of 10 shot groups as opposed to LV and HV groups which are 5 shot groups.

Idaho, I certainly see your point on why a rail gun is used commercially. I should have thought more about what I posted. I don't know about Bart, but I have been shooting I.B.S. score matches for about 15 years now and am still amazed at times. I shoot score simply because there are very few group matches in the north east if any at all.

Rich, I have been shooting benchrest since 1990. I am not a top notch shooter, but have a first place in a yardage at the Cactus Classic in Phoenix and a 5th place yardage finish at the Super Shoot. 400 shooters were there. Only 100&200 yards are shot at the Super Shoot. Zeros are very rarely shot even with 400 shooters at the Super Shoot. The normal aggregate winners at a BR match are high 1's moa at 100 yds and low 2's at 200 yds. With adverse weather it would be higher. Railguns are more accurate, but as Eddie says they shoot 10 shot groups. A good shooter can get off 10 shots in about 15 seconds with a properly set up rail gun. This is a single shot with an ejector.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
Bart,
The 1000 Yard BR club in Pa has been shooting groups for decades without matching what you are talking about.

Amen - that says it all and settles this argument!

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
Bart,
The 1000 Yard BR club in Pa has been shooting groups for decades without matching what you are talking about.

I know that. Maybe one reason is the BR folks don't shoot groups at or just before sunrise when the air's real still and atmospheric conditions are very uniform between muzzle and target. And another reason may be they don't use proper full-length sized cases for their handloads.

Bart, I have tried to keep from putting it this way, but your full length resizing is the only way to do it is a crock of bullshit. There are a FEW guy that are f.l. sizing but the vast majority of the gentlemen that I shoot with still neck size and shoot pretty well this way. If it were just the idea that cases last so much longer neck sized that would be enough with all the work that goes into them, but such is not the case, neck sized cases shoot better in most instances. I have cases that have been shot over 30 times without f. l. sizing and still chamber as they should.

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
Bart, I have tried to keep from putting it this way, but your full length resizing is the only way to do it is a crock.... I have cases that have been shot over 30 times without f. l. sizing and still chamber as they should.

I never said full length sizing was the only way to go.

Sierra Bullets has been full-length sizing all their cases used to test bullets with and I doubt anybody gets better accuracy with them than they do. They've been doing this since the late 1950's. They don't weigh powder charges, either; just throw 'em from a powder measure and in spite of charge weight spreads up to 2/10ths grain or more get test groups in the ones with their best match bullets at 100 and 200 yards.

Some folks get 50 to 100 reloads per case with maximum loads full-length sizing rimless bottleneck cases. There's no secret; just set the fired case shoulder back .002- to .003 inches, reduce case body diameters about .003-inch and lap the die's neck out to about .002- to .003-inch smaller than loaded round neck diameter. We get better accuracy with new cases than with neck sized ones. But I'm talking about 20+ shot groups which indicate what accuracy will be virtually all the time, not 3 or 5 shot groups which usually indicate what accuracy will be once in a (great) while.

I helped the US Palma Team develop a load in 1991 for Sierra's then new 30 caliber 155-grain HPMK bullet. Several of us used new cases, 210M primers and a variety of extruded and ball powders thrown from measures. The most accurate load was about 45.3 grains (with 3/10ths grain spread) of IMR4895 in new Winchester cases. A couple hundred thousand rounds were produced on two Dillon 1050 progressive machines. Random samples tested about 2.8 inches at 600 yards for 20 shot groups. Top long range shooters from around the world all shot that same ammo and agreed it was 1/2 MOA stuff at 600 yards. Not too shabby for new cases. None of us ever got that good of accuracy with neck only sized cases. Nobody else has done that well with neck only sized cases.

Do you know what size 100 or 200 yard groups one has to get to shoot 1/2 MOA or better at 600 yards? They gotta be 2/10ths MOA or smaller.

Bart, where do you come up with statements like "nobody else has done that well with neck only sized cases". The record agg. for a light gun at 600 yds. is 2.148 inches while a heavy gun is 1.980 inches. I'll give you a ten dollar bill for every case in that record that was F.L. sized, and you give me ten for every neck sized case. I have no way of knowing, but we should be able to find out. These are I.B.S. records, if you would like to include N.B.R.S.A. we can do that also. I have no doubt whatsoever that there are people that get better accuracy then Sierra, if they are foolish enough to shoot them in a B.R. match. I would also love to see someone get 50 reloads from F.L. sized cases, never mind one hundred.

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
Bart, where do you come up with statements like "nobody else has done that well with neck only sized cases". The record agg. for a light gun at 600 yds. is 2.148 inches while a heavy gun is 1.980 inches.

I think those records you reference are the average of several 5 or 10 shot groups. Which means the largest single group size isn't mentioned; just the average.

I referred to 20 shot groups. That's 20 consecutive shots in one group. There's several combinations of 5 or 10 shot group sizes that will average the above numbers. And some of them will include at least one group that's larger than 3 inches.

Find a benchrester that's shot 20 consecutive shots under 3 inches at 600 yards and I'll pay attention. I'll not go into the details of several 10 shot groups fired with full-length sized cases at 600 yards ranging from about .8 to 1.5 inches; the average (aggregate) is around 1.1 inch.

SEVERAL 10 shot groups at 600 yds. averaging 1.1 inch. I think your dreaming again.

I'll say...pure

I'm sure somebody here would be willing to place a substantial bet to see ANYBODY with ANY gun/setup shoot 10 shot groups at 600 yards anywhere NEAR 1.1"!!

QUOTE: "I know that. Maybe one reason is the BR folks don't shoot groups at or just before sunrise when the air's real still and atmospheric conditions are very uniform between muzzle and target. And another reason may be they don't use proper full-length sized cases for their handloads."

Now you're implying these shooters don't know or use optimum reloading methods! Good grief man, do you realize what you're shoveling??

Here we go again with the full length resizing. There may be a gun every now and then that shoots better with f.l. sized cases, but your way of thinking that it is best for everyone is rediculous. The ten buck a shot, F.L. as opposed to neck sizing still stands, jump on it. Man, when you get your teeth into something like this f.l. thing you are a narrow minded person. LISTEN, I shoot BR and every one that I know of neck sizes, and they have at least as much expertise as you do on that or any other reloading subject. Don't you think that these guys have tried full length resizing and with a very few exceptions have given it up as a lost cause.

quote:

Originally posted by Bart B.:

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
Bart,
The 1000 Yard BR club in Pa has been shooting groups for decades without matching what you are talking about.

I know that. Maybe one reason is the BR folks don't shoot groups at or just before sunrise when the air's real still and atmospheric conditions are very uniform between muzzle and target. And another reason may be they don't use proper full-length sized cases for their handloads.

Bart,
Have you ever been to a benchrest match?

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
Bart,
Have you ever been to a benchrest match?

Yes. And some benchresters were at a highpower 1000-yard match watching me test some loads (new cases as well as full-length sized ones) shooting prone from a rest. I shot a pair 5-inch 15-shot groups and they were surprised those cases did that well.

And I've bought stuff from from Lester Bruno's store who caters to the benchrest crowd. I learned from these folks that lots of the stool shooters are changing over to full-length sizing. The folks you guys know may not be doing that, but it is happening.

Well if you have bought some stuff from Lester that makes all the difference in the world, you must be an authority on everything involved with benchrest. A pair of 5 inch 15 shot groups at 1000 yards, I know very little about 1000 yd. shooting, but I THINK I know enough to raise the bullshit flag on that one. The record for 10 shot group is roughly 3 and a half inches, you say you shot 2 15 shot groups of 5 inches in a row. I kinda doubt it.

You shot two 5 inch 15 shot groups at 1000 yards?

Since he's such a good shot and shoots these tiny groups consistently, now he needs to go out and shoot some more with witnesses present - preferably shooters we know, and then post pictures here showing the signed and witnessed targets.

Give us a time and place so some of us can show up...

You shoot groups like that and dinner and drinks will be on us.

You fail and it's on you!



He probably won't even show up.

BartB, The NRA Longrange Highpower record was fired by Carl Kovalciak at Quantico, Va. in 1996. The target scored 200-19X. Allowing that the 10 ring is 20" and the X ring is 10", your 15 shot 5" groups were well on the way to being a new record. It is a shame you didn't fire 5 more into the group and have witnesses, along with having to have them all in the 20" 10 ring.
Keep up the great shooting and I'll keep my eye out for your scores.

Eddie, that record is for any sights and he used a scope. The other 1000-yard highpower record is fired with metallic (aperture) sights and co-held by Michelle Gallagher and her Mom, Nancy. The score is 200-16X, not too shabby considering the inheirant differences in shooting between metallic and telescopic sights. I've known and shot with both as well as their Dad/Husband Mid for many years.

My group wouldn't have qualified for either a score nor a record. Even though both 15-shot groups I fired that morning went into the 10-inch X-ring (first 15 at the top and the last 15 at the bottom, 30 shots in all, two different loads), I fired them prone resting the forend on one sand bag and the stock's toe on another one. That's artificial support; not allowed for highpower competition. I was just testing ammo in a new barrel. Several folks watched including the man in the pits pulling my target.

But highpower folks are more trustworthy than benchresters; they typically don't need witnesses signing test targets to prove anything. Their proof is in how well they shoot off the shoulder without rests holding inside a 3/4 MOA area and breaking their shots inside a 1/2 MOA area from prone and doping the wind for each shot.

Corky Tyson's and Nancy Gallagher-Tompkins' 600-yard records of 200-19X put all 20 shots inside about 4 inches; that's about 2/3rds MOA with aperture sights. I watched Corky shoot his at the Nationals in '89. This record was equalled again this year by Wm. Budbill. They all shot full-length sized cases in rifles that will shoot under 1/2 MOA at 600 yards.