Now it he'd turn either of them into a feature length film I'd buy the DVD

Where in the heck did the 109 carry the extra gas he'd need to make it to Ireland?

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
Where in the heck did the 109 carry the extra gas he'd need to make it to Ireland?

Great observation. The only way would have been one way!

A little research came up with a very informative site
Foreign Aricraft in Ireland 1939-1945
The person put a lot of information and effort in to the site!

Skimming over it I found no BF109 crashes. Mostly Focke-Wulf Fw200 C-1s, Heinkel He111Ps and variants, Dornier Do17Z-3 and variants,Junkers Ju-88 D-2s and variants.

I saw no single seat fighter crashes.

I guess we'll have to chalk the film up as "fiction"!

I am not pilot but wondered about the fairly gentle landing after the collision. Would the result of a collision that tore off the outer portion of both plane's wings have been the landing portrayed or would have the planes both gone completely out of control?
Dabney

I think that the wings snapping off as shown is a bit far fetched

More likely the wing would BEND and the affect on that would actually result in MORE of an uncontrolled roll rate than losing a piece of wing.

even a slight bend would make control of the ailerons wishful thinking.

An intentional midair collision is a suicidal act with only one likely outcome for BOTH aircrew.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
A little research came up with a very informative site
Foreign Aricraft in Ireland 1939-1945
The person put a lot of information and effort in to the site!
Skimming over it I found no BF109 crashes. Mostly Focke-Wulf Fw200 C-1s, Heinkel He111Ps and variants, Dornier Do17Z-3 and variants,Junkers Ju-88 D-2s and variants.
I saw no single seat fighter crashes.

I guess we'll have to chalk the film up as "fiction"!

Probably because of the distance to Germany and the Single seat fighters couldn't fly that far where as the bombers used a light house in Ireland to Navigate by and I think flew up the Britol Channel to bomb various cities, the Bristol Channel being not too far from Ireland.

Allan...
Ramming not always fatal to both aircraft. See the photo section in the book "The Grand Old Lady" a history of the DC3. There is a photo of a DC3 that was rammed by a Japanese Zero while flying the "Hump" in Burma. The Zero had apparently run out of ammo and so chose to ram the DC3 hitting the top of the fuselage just aft of the wing. The DC3 is missing a curved chunk of fuselage about ten feet long by 2-3 feet deep at its deepest. The Zero crashed, the DC3 flew on home. "Grand Old Lady" indeed.

A DC3 versus a Zero is a bit different to two fighter aircraft colliding, especially since a DC3 is built like a brick outhouse.


Re wings being blown off, just have a look on youtube of actual gun camera footage and that will give you an idea. Saw a couple of aircraft explode but no wings cut off.

Later in the war when 30 and 50 cals became more common it might have occurred but with 303's, I doubt it.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
A DC3 versus a Zero is a bit different to two fighter aircraft colliding, especially since a DC3 is built like a brick outhouse.


Re wings being blown off, just have a look on youtube of actual gun camera footage and that will give you an idea. Saw a couple of aircraft explode but no wings cut off.

Later in the war when 30 and 50 cals became more common it might have occurred but with 303's, I doubt it.

Wings coming off fighter aircraft are almost invariably related to cannon shells.

Take a look at where the ammo trays are for the German wing mounted 20mm cannon

a live round being struck from behind and the live round being suddenly forcefully jammed against the front wall of the ammo tray results in said cannon round detonating in virtual contact with the wing spar of a loaded wing...

AMERICAN planes shedding a wing from a cannon shell strike is less common than german wings being blown off by their own ammo load.

THAT is how a 50cal "Blows a wing" off of a german plane.

But I stand by my earlier statement, intentionally doing a sharp aileron roll into a wing that's a few feet from your own if far more likely to BEND something and completely screw your ability to control the control surfaces to "fight" against the bent aerodynamic surface

as a scientific wild ass guess I'd say the likeliest result would be a Rapid uncontrolled asymetric roll which would devolve into a pitch which would at exceed command authority

There is no guarantee that the wing would bend "Straight" so any "Bend" is very unlikely to be control neutral, not that you are going to be able to control the aileron on that side anyway.

I don't know enough about the control cable layout in an early Spit of Bf109 to guess if the aileron is going to jam "up", "down" or with slack cables will start "Fluttering"

Not to mention any induced yaw and possibly
exceeding pitch authority...

And none of those likely outcomes sounds like something I want to personally experience at 1000ft at 350kts

The results are unpredictable, but having a controllable aircraft aftwards is about as likely as getting mauled by a polar bear and a regular bear on the same day you win the Powerball lottery and survive getting struck by lightning.

Frankly I don't like the odds of the aircraft not going int a post collision gyration so severe that bailing out is even a possibility.

Not that it would be at <2000ft

I say again... it's a good way to die.

Gentlemen,

This is not a factual depiction, and it is a rather poor movie at that.

If you are commenting on the damage to the planes, how come no one mentions that they are sitting in the fields with no furrows or marks in the ground at all, did they just spiral down vertically and set down like a feather? How about the brit was flying a new plane and his microphone was this old rusty POS? Plus by this time everyone was wearing their goggles in combat as they have had enough mates get facial damage from flames.

And the Germans hair was way too 80's, BTW.

Here is the video of an f-15 flying 10 miles back to the airport after a midair collision that took a wing completely off


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11TGTERa_2k

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
Gentlemen,

This is not a factual depiction, and it is a rather poor movie at that.

If you are commenting on the damage to the planes, how come no one mentions that they are sitting in the fields with no furrows or marks in the ground at all, did they just spiral down vertically and set down like a feather? How about the brit was flying a new plane and his microphone was this old rusty POS? Plus by this time everyone was wearing their goggles in combat as they have had enough mates get facial damage from flames.

And the Germans hair was way too 80's, BTW.

Mark, simply haven't gotten to that yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Patricio Gaudiano:
Here is the video of an f-15 flying 10 miles back to the airport after a midair collision that took a wing completely off


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11TGTERa_2k

Yes, but consider how much of an F15's lift is actually from the Fuselage rather than the wing.

Now consider that in that event the wing was completely seperated

The "roll into the other guy's wing from 4feet away" in the short being discussed would have bent something rather than broken it.

We are critiquing the special effects

Yes the short looks great on first watch

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
Gentlemen,

This is not a factual depiction, and it is a rather poor movie at that.

If you are commenting on the damage to the planes, how come no one mentions that they are sitting in the fields with no furrows or marks in the ground at all, did they just spiral down vertically and set down like a feather? How about the brit was flying a new plane and his microphone was this old rusty POS? Plus by this time everyone was wearing their goggles in combat as they have had enough mates get facial damage from flames.

And the Germans hair was way too 80's, BTW.

Mark, simply haven't gotten to that yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Patricio Gaudiano:
Here is the video of an f-15 flying 10 miles back to the airport after a midair collision that took a wing completely off


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11TGTERa_2k

Yes, but consider how much of an F15's lift is actually from the Fuselage rather than the wing.

Now consider that in that event the wing was completely seperated

The "roll into the other guy's wing from 4feet away" in the short being discussed would have bent something rather than broken it.

We are critiquing the special effects

Yes the short looks great on first watch

No argument to your point

I actually found a ideo of swings coming off
after being attacked. I'll try and find it again.
I think they were mostly from being shot up
with Cannons.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
I actually found a ideo of swings coming off
after being attacked. I'll try and find it again.
I think they were mostly from being shot up
with Cannons.

.

American fighter aircraft are responsible for the vast majority of gun camera footage of Axis aircraft getting shot up.

And most of the footage you are going to see of Bf109's, Fw190's etc losing wings are going to be largely from american 50cal causing the detonation of the german's own ammunition.

as I mentioned above german aircraft cannon fuses have no rotational safeties, the 30's have an inertial safety, so when a 50cal projectile slams into the ammo tray or ammo box
and slams a shell forward one part of the safety is satisfied and since the ammo box is typically directly behind the main wing spar...

I ask again, what happens to a fighter plane when one of it's own 20mm or 30mm cannon shells detonates in direct contact with the back of the wing spar while the aircraft is in flight?

To answer this question, is that there is a little flash and the wing comes off as though it were made out of balsa wood...

What happens to the aircraft? it immediatly loses lift on that sideso it typically rolls abrubtly towards the missing wing while at the same time the aircraft yaws away from the missing wing.

More often than not in this situation the entire aileron control system becomes abrubtly non-functional and the aircraft eventually winds up in an unstable random tumble until it either disintegrates in flight or impacts the ground.

I am not a pilot, but I have a fairly good knowledge of physics.

Pilots know what an airplane will do, I generally understand WHY.

I had a long talk explaining "P factor" to a pilot, and why though it can increase the performance and stability of a Twin engine aircraft only a stupid engineer actually plans on using the effect.

The wing slap and rip it off is artistic license. Nothing has the rate of roll to impart an impact of greater than the neg g load the wing is meant to take. More better? Prop into rudder or canopy. Would have resulted in me 109 being unflyable and Brit would likely dead stick land on a bent prop

Dublin if launched from France would be right at the edge of the Mac ferry range of the me. One way trip


All that brig said. Great clip