Some fine Americans here. I am so sorry they were so poorly led.

http://cademartin.com/overwar/

1. Politicians should not fight wars.

2. The F-105 was not designed to be a tactical bomber.

1 + 2 = Disaster.

Thank you very much for posting this testament to men who did their duty and may they be a special place in hell for politicians and beurocrats who sold so many lives so cheaply.

Opus, when I was a kid in Tacoma, Washington, in the mid-1960s, I recall Dad took us to an Armed Forces Day event at Fort Lewis. Darn if a trio of Thunderchiefs didn't do a fly-by at very low elevation, right over us, so close I could feel the heat from their engines. Magnificent machines. I think that's the day my hearing loss began.

One of my cousins flew the 105s in Vietnam for the Marines, he had nothing but praise for the aircraft. For the LBJ administration, not so much.

The F-105 was a great a/c. The only problem was the geniuses in Washington tasked the F-105 to do something it was not exactly designed nor intended to do. As a result the F-105 was cannon fodder.

quote:

Originally posted by hogfarmer:
One of my cousins flew the 105s in Vietnam for the Marines, he had nothing but praise for the aircraft. For the LBJ administration, not so much.

Did your cousin fly them as an exchange pilot with USAF? No Marine units flew the F-105.

quote:

Originally posted by A7Dave:

quote:

Originally posted by hogfarmer:
One of my cousins flew the 105s in Vietnam for the Marines, he had nothing but praise for the aircraft. For the LBJ administration, not so much.

Did your cousin fly them as an exchange pilot with USAF? No Marine units flew the F-105.

Good question, he was in the USMC from the early 50s till he retired in the mid 80s as a colonel. I definitely remember him talking about flying the F 105, the reason he was in the aircraft I can't answer. Sadly, he passed away a few years ago in his early 80s so I can't ask him.

Thud Pilot

by Dick Jonas



I'm a Thud pilot, and I love my plane.

It is my body, I am it's brain.

My Thunder Chief loves me, and I love her too,

But I get the creeps, with only one seat and one engine too.



She's faster than lightening it says on her dials.

To get a Thud airborne takes only two miles.

She's packed with transistors, black boxes, diodes,

But stay alert, 'Cause you might get hurt when she explodes.



She totes more bombs than a B-17.

My F-105 has a gun and she's mean.

But there is one thing that curdles my blood,

It's lonesome up there, Alone in the air in my single seat Thud.



I love my Thud and she loves me too.

She soaks up Flak like a magnet can do.

If I get my hundred and I'm still alive,

I'll have no grief, Good-bye Thunderchief, My F-105!

Grizz

In the mid 80s (I think the year was 1984) I was a young LT stationed in AK. I went caribou hunting with a captain with whom I worked and he had a book called "Thud Ridge."

That hunt was in late Nov; nights were long and it was cold. Never even saw a caribou but I remember reading that book every night before turning off the headlamp and going to sleep.

Thud Ridge - https://www.amazon.com/Thud-Ri...ietnam/dp/0859791165

quote:

Originally posted by hogfarmer:

quote:

Originally posted by A7Dave:

quote:

Originally posted by hogfarmer:
One of my cousins flew the 105s in Vietnam for the Marines, he had nothing but praise for the aircraft. For the LBJ administration, not so much.

Did your cousin fly them as an exchange pilot with USAF? No Marine units flew the F-105.

Good question, he was in the USMC from the early 50s till he retired in the mid 80s as a colonel. I definitely remember him talking about flying the F 105, the reason he was in the aircraft I can't answer. Sadly, he passed away a few years ago in his early 80s so I can't ask him.

Even the thought of flying Thuds - awesome! There were so many amazing planes in the late 50s and 60s - F-100s, Voodoos, F-8s, F-4s, Canberras, A-4s, A-7s, A-6s, B-66, Buffs, Vigis, Cutlasses, Demons, Banshees, Stoofs, Spads. Back then, guys flew all kinds of different planes during their careers. I even came across a Navy squadron that flew B-47s. Great time to be a pilot.

I met several 105 guys coming and going to Thailand back in the day. Brave men, all!

As for me, just give me my Scooter. I'll be fine.

Judge - I am sure this has been discussed before, but what flying contraption did you command?

My dad did 3 tours flying the F-105.Judge,you might have known him,Capt. Don Staber,he retired as a light bird.

Three tours in Thuds.... lots of folks didn't survive that, particularly in RP-6.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Judge - I am sure this has been discussed before, but what flying contraption did you command?

"Command" is a word that I never heard in reference to me. That said, I flew A-4 Skyhawks with several squadrons, in the states, in SE Asia and in Japan. The normal progression is designated wingman (with an experienced lead), then section leader (you lead a two a/c flight) then a division leader (which usually had four a/c, you and a wingman and another section of two a/c). A division leader can lead the whole squadron and I once flew a sortie leading 16 a/c, all loaded with 8 MK-82'2. It was really bad weather and was a true CF... but somehow we got the bombs relatively near the target.

A-4's were single seat a/c for the most part. I did fly TA-4's some in a fast FAC role with another pilot or observer in the back.

During your vacation in VN, which a/c did you feel safer flying - the F-105 or the A-4?

All slicked up the F-105 was a barn burner. But ladened with 16 - 750 pound crowd pleasers it was reportedly somewhat of a pig to fly. Then again, most any fighter/bomber with an extra 12,000 pounds of bombs, a sidewinder or two, a thousand pounds or so of fuel, and lots of parasitic drag would be a little on sluggish side...

Just watched a documentary on Robin Olds and Operation Bolo. That operation certainly thinned the aireral threat for the F-105s for awhile.

Sorry if I said anything confusing. I only flew A-4's.

Like all "Golly gee, durn, gee whillakers, what if" speculation . . .
Wonder what would have happened if dufus and his trusty sidekidck macnamara had sat down, shut up and let Robin Olds and others like him in all the services conduct the war.

I'm guessing there would have been fewer planes lost and therefore Crews saved from whatever they fate they ended up suffering..

JudgeG,he did survive the war but cancer got him 25 years ago.He did love to fly.

A good friend, James Blair White, flew F105s during the Vietnam conflict. Jimmy didn't make it back. His Dad, Ed White was base commander at Sheppard AFB in the 1957-about 1958 or so. Jimmy's brother was Ed White, the deceased brother lost his life on the launchpad of the first manned Apollo flight with Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee.
Jimmy lost his life over Laos. He was never found. One of the most striking young guys that I have ever been around.

http://thewall-usa.com/guest.asp?recid=55653

Thanks for this, Butch. Too much loss for one family.

Yet another reason why two grave sites should have the odor of urine with continued freshening.
Without their assistance we may well have won and many good jet drivers would not have been captured/killed!

TC we are beating a dead horse here. You + I both know that we are/were right. We also know that it was pure politics. We all knew too many that did'nt come back.I try to bury this under the heading that there is nothing I can do so don't let it make you crazy.On an off side,a buddy of mine(+he's a DV,did 13 months in Walter Reed after being shot all to hell) took his family to D.C. to see 'The Wall'.He was so pissed;they raped him at the hotel,then charged him $12.00 for a grilled cheese sandwitch. That was close to 20 years ago.That's just enough to piss off the pope.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
A good friend, James Blair White, flew F105s during the Vietnam conflict. Jimmy didn't make it back. His Dad, Ed White was base commander at Sheppard AFB in the 1957-about 1958 or so. Jimmy's brother was Ed White, the deceased brother lost his life on the launchpad of the first manned Apollo flight with Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee.
Jimmy lost his life over Laos. He was never found. One of the most striking young guys that I have ever been around.

http://thewall-usa.com/guest.asp?recid=55653

First thing I thought as I read your lines was Jimmy was related to Ed.

Actually, Jimmy's remains were recovered and he is buried next to his brother at the West Point cemetery, a place I used to go 40 years ago to reflect and think about the heroes buried there.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
A good friend, James Blair White, flew F105s during the Vietnam conflict. Jimmy didn't make it back. His Dad, Ed White was base commander at Sheppard AFB in the 1957-about 1958 or so. Jimmy's brother was Ed White, the deceased brother lost his life on the launchpad of the first manned Apollo flight with Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee.
Jimmy lost his life over Laos. He was never found. One of the most striking young guys that I have ever been around.

http://thewall-usa.com/guest.asp?recid=55653

First thing I thought as I read your lines was Jimmy was related to Ed.

Actually, Jimmy's remains were recovered and he is buried next to his brother at the West Point cemetery, a place I used to go 40 years ago to reflect and think about the heroes buried there.

I haven't heard that. I will contact Lt. General Lawrence P Farrell, another buddy from that time. Larry was a F4 pilot in Vietnam.
This is Ed and Jimmy's Dad's wiki page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Higgins_White_Sr.

Not so long ago they hadn't recovered his remains.Ed was a West Point grad and Jimmy was an Air Force Academy grad.

"Ed was a West Point grad"

Michael Collins, the Command Module pilot of Apollo 11 was his classmate.

I sent an email to Larry.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
"Ed was a West Point grad"

Michael Collins, the Command Module pilot of Apollo 11 was his classmate.

I sent an email to Larry to see if he had more current info on Jimmy. Ed would surely have gone to the AF Academy, but he graduated From West Point before the AFA opened.

Here is a link on Jim White:

https://www.af.mil/News/Articl...-finally-comes-home/

Just dawned on me the Challenger blew up 19 years and one day after the Apollo tragedy.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Here is a link on Jim White:

https://www.af.mil/News/Articl...-finally-comes-home/

Just dawned on me the Challenger blew up 19 years and one day after the Apollo tragedy.

Thanks for the update. I wasn't aware of this. He was a great young man and I feel privileged to have known him personally.

From General Farrell.
Lawrence Farrell

Oct 6, 2018, 5:40 PM (16 hours ago)

to me
Butch

I believe Jimmy was lost in Laos flying an F-105 Thunder Chief. He was a good guy. I knew him at Air Force Academy. His 1st Squadron was right next to my 2nd Squadron.

Larry

Sent from my iPhone

Men like these make me so proud to be an American.

quote:

Originally posted by clayman216:
Men like these make me so proud to be an American.

Yes Sir, You are correct.