quote:

Originally posted by Grizzly Adams:

quote:

Originally posted by Porosonik:

quote:

R

Yep- it looks like the workaround to fix the original workaround is taking a lot longer than expected. Imagine that. Fortunately, I'll be retired before the MAX returns to service here at Southwest.

Still, it's amazing to see just how much "fake news" there is surrounding this topic. Everybody's still saying that the fix will be a software correction to the existing anti stall system. It isn't going to be that easy.

The whole reason MCAS was added to this airplane was because the elevator didn't have enough authority to do the job at all attitudes and air speeds. The existing SMYD (stall management/yaw damper) controls pitch via the elevator, but there wasn't enough elevator available for it to do the job. That's when the engineers decided if they couldn't move the CG to the center of lift (and thereby control pitch) with the elevator, they would move the center of lift to match the CG by controlling the part of the wing doing the lifting. That was what MCAS was supposed to do.

Also- the single AOA vane story isn't neccessarily true either. The MAX definately has two AOA vanes- one on each side of the fuselage just under the cockpit. It is my understanding that only the right side AOA feeds the MCAS, at least that's what the block diagram in my training book shows. This could very well be a factor in why the MCAS runs amok. Strange- Boeing usually designs stuff with multiple redundancy eight ways to Sunday.

Anyway- to deal with the root of the problem, they're either going to have to give the elevator more authority (larger elevator), or add a cannard to the nose to make up for the lack of sufficient elevator. Neither looks attractive from an economic point of view.

Porosonik.

So, what you're saying is, it's going to take a redesign to fix the problem ? that could get pricey.

Grizz

quote:

Originally posted by Porosonik:
I finally had a chance to go back and re-read all the posts so far, and noticed a common theme. Folks from the “pilot side of the house” have been trained from the beginning that the elevator is the only device that controls pitch. Full stop. End of story.

In this Brave New World of fly-by-wire aviation, that is no longer a constant.

MCAS was designed to control pitch independently of the elevator. It had to be that way, to “assist” the elevator when it runs out of effectiveness. Therefore, it has no direct physical connection with the elevator. No amount of treating it as an elevator trim issue is going to be effective, because it’s not the elevator position that’s changing the pitch. This is just one of the changes that need to be made in regards to pilot training.

Also, something new with the MAX is the “elevator jam landing assist” switch on the P5 overhead, just above the leading edge device position annunciatior (“pinball machine”). This allows pitch to be controlled as a last resort through the MCAS in the event of a disabled elevator. I guess the folks at Boeing thought this would be a nifty add-on so it wouldn’t be necessary to herd all the fat passengers fore or aft as a last ditch control method.

OK- rant off.

Porosonik

quote:

I get from your commentary that the Max uses spoilers to shift the center of lift in a manner to increase the elevator's effectiveness.

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
737 past useful design life after 60 years. Time for something new and better. Cockpit way to small for me but I only flew 200 and 300 but it’s the same size. They are trying to make the A320s more than they were designed to be as well but at least its fly by wire. A big advantage. American supposedly buying a whole bunch of 737 MacNeil let’s see how this all plays out. Good design initially but trying to make it something it’s not is problematic. No doubt it will be solved and be successful but there seems to be something lacking in Boeing leadership right now. Let’s hope they get their act together I like Boeing (just not the 737....)

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
Here is another BBC article/commentary, quite well done, I thought I had posted some time ago, pardon me if this is a duplicate??

Subject: What went wrong inside Boeing's cockpit? - BBC News

Thishttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/res...g_two_deadly_crashes

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
Making Nitrogen from air is NOT rocket science. I worked for Hooker Chemical in the 60's in High School summer jobs, where they had, among other things an Ammonia plant/farm fertilizer....NH3. If you freeze compressed air to liquid, then warm,"boil" off the Nitrogen at about -300 degrees-liquid, warm more to gas again!!
Stop there for Aviation use.
We had Hydrogen coming from the brine salt electrolysis cells that made chlorine gas and Hydrogen from Salt-NaCl and water H2O...mix Hydrogen and Nitrogen and you have NH3- Ammonia.
Chlorine gas for water treatment and pool chemicals, and Chlorine+ Hydrogen also for Hydrochloric Acid HCL, and finally Caustic Soda NaOH.
If you just used the first process you have free liquid nitrogen...which boils and becomes gas again well below ZERO. That could be injected into the fuel tanks...and more O2/air to go back into the Cabin>>>
I think that fuel tank problem might be/have been a much simpler issue than the rats nest that seems to have been created on the MAX??
Talk about career changing/limiting/ending decisions!!
I really hope Boeing gets it RIGHT SOON!!
Cheers,

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
"That is why most of the “ crappy" airlines self grounded while all the
> major US airlines are still flying without a problem."
Hmm, this thread started in March, it is now June, and at least one American airline has cancelled all flights of this aircraft until September. What gives? Wasn't this all about Asian and African pilots? Unfortunately, it turns out that even good ol' American pilots were not told about the software either, and for some reason they were upset!
Oh, what happened to the bird strike theory??!!
Then there is:

"Sadly on the MAX situation I speculate that Boeing will take a bust on the chops, BUT, I think a lot of this relates to the lack of training, and lack of overall EXPERIENCE by foreign airlines."

And, we still don't have a solution from Boeing that has been proposed, tested and approved. This is indeed a lesson in a putatively flawed system. We will have to see what happens, as I suggested back in March.
So, no, I don't believe that the solution to this issue is:
"WHERE HAS THE JOY OF FLYING GONE??"
I think it is a lot bigger than that!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Thank you Poro! I agree that Trump was out in front of this issue. There have been many allusions to a somewhat cozy relationship between Boeing and the regulators. We will see what shakes out.
Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Sullenberger says"

"he can see how crews would have struggled during the recent Boeing 737 MAX crashes after he spent time in a simulator running recreations of the doomed flights.

"I recently experienced all these warnings in a 737 MAX flight simulator during recreations of the accident flights. Even knowing what was going to happen, I could see how crews could have run out of time before they could have solved the problems."
I suspect that others have told the congressional panel the same thing, but hearing it from "Sully" might go towards counteracting the testimony of the vendor and other parties.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Well, my neophyte question is still this:
"Is it possible to fly a modern commercial airliner without computer assisted controls?"

YES


If the answer is "No", then we are still left with the engineers!
Isn't just about everything "fly by wire"?

NO


We aren't flying Spitfires any more!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Redstone:
+1

- Mike
A-7D
A-10A
B727
B737
B777
(& some bug smashers too....)

quote:

The fewer things you depend on, the less a failure affects you.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
We never used the landing light at the ship.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Brady:
Hi Todd
I agree with you 100% far too much reliance on technology and not near enough JUST FLY THE AIRPLANE. Your no landing lights on the ship reminds me I don't know how many time I landed the PBY on the water in the Dark with no landing lights.
Take care. Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Brady:
Hi Todd
I agree with you 100% far too much reliance on technology and not near enough JUST FLY THE AIRPLANE. Your no landing lights on the ship reminds me I don't know how many time I landed the PBY on the water in the Dark with no landing lights.
Take care. Bill

We at least had an ILS to 3/4 mile, then the meat ball. But landing on the water at night with no illumination! Yowza!!

Reminds me of the instructor telling his student learning to fly at night about how to handle an engine failure at night in a single engine plane. He told the student to "establish the proper glide, then when at the appropriate altitude in the drift down, getting ready to set it down, turn on the landing light. If you don't like what you see, turn it off!!!"

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Brady:
Hi Todd
I agree with you 100% far too much reliance on technology and not near enough JUST FLY THE AIRPLANE. Your no landing lights on the ship reminds me I don't know how many time I landed the PBY on the water in the Dark with no landing lights.
Take care. Bill

We at least had an ILS to 3/4 mile, then the meat ball. But landing on the water at night with no illumination! Yowza!!

Reminds me of the instructor telling his student learning to fly at night about how to handle an engine failure at night in a single engine plane. He told the student to "establish the proper glide, then when at the appropriate altitude in the drift down, getting ready to set it down, turn on the landing light. If you don't like what you see, turn it off!!!"

Todd:

I have a friend who is an astronaut; was on ISS when the Columbia disintegrated and I watched him launch on STS-126. Anyway, he always gives us the coolest private tours of JSC (I got to sit in Gene Krantz's old chair). We were there some years ago getting a tour and met a fellow astronaut who was a naval aviator; the guy had been up in the shuttle once. One of my friends asked him if going up in the shuttle was scary.

He looked at her and said, "Not as scary as the 134 night landings I did on a carrier."

I probably told this story before, but it is a fav.

His night launch on STS-126:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsIV1GLLEgw

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Brady:
Hi Todd
I agree with you 100% far too much reliance on technology and not near enough JUST FLY THE AIRPLANE. Your no landing lights on the ship reminds me I don't know how many time I landed the PBY on the water in the Dark with no landing lights.
Take care. Bill

We at least had an ILS to 3/4 mile, then the meat ball. But landing on the water at night with no illumination! Yowza!!

Reminds me of the instructor telling his student learning to fly at night about how to handle an engine failure at night in a single engine plane. He told the student to "establish the proper glide, then when at the appropriate altitude in the drift down, getting ready to set it down, turn on the landing light. If you don't like what you see, turn it off!!!"

Todd:

I have a friend who is an astronaut; was on ISS when the Columbia disintegrated and I watched him launch on STS-126. Anyway, he always gives us the coolest private tours of JSC (I got to sit in Gene Krantz's old chair). We were there some years ago getting a tour and met a fellow astronaut who was a naval aviator; the guy had been up in the shuttle once. One of my friends asked him if going up in the shuttle was scary.

He looked at her and said, "Not as scary as the 134 night landings I did on a carrier."

I probably told this story before, but it is a fav.

His night launch on STS-126:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsIV1GLLEgw

Pretty cool launch of the shuttle.

I've got a couple of buddies that went on to fly the shuttle. Rick Sturkow (Marine) and Dominic Gore (Navy). I also instructed the Kelly brothers in advanced jets (A-4). Sturkow and Gore are good guys.

I gave Curt Brown his initial check ride when he was first hired at AA. We spent quite a bit of time talking about the shuttle. He was super cool about it. Guys would always ask each other about their back grounds. Everyone in the training dept. knew who Curt was as at that time, he had flown more shuttle missions than anyone. When asked about his back ground, his response was always, "I flew some high performance gliders"!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Brady:
Hi Todd
I agree with you 100% far too much reliance on technology and not near enough JUST FLY THE AIRPLANE. Your no landing lights on the ship reminds me I don't know how many time I landed the PBY on the water in the Dark with no landing lights.
Take care. Bill

We at least had an ILS to 3/4 mile, then the meat ball. But landing on the water at night with no illumination! Yowza!!

Reminds me of the instructor telling his student learning to fly at night about how to handle an engine failure at night in a single engine plane. He told the student to "establish the proper glide, then when at the appropriate altitude in the drift down, getting ready to set it down, turn on the landing light. If you don't like what you see, turn it off!!!"

Todd:

I have a friend who is an astronaut; was on ISS when the Columbia disintegrated and I watched him launch on STS-126. Anyway, he always gives us the coolest private tours of JSC (I got to sit in Gene Krantz's old chair). We were there some years ago getting a tour and met a fellow astronaut who was a naval aviator; the guy had been up in the shuttle once. One of my friends asked him if going up in the shuttle was scary.

He looked at her and said, "Not as scary as the 134 night landings I did on a carrier."

I probably told this story before, but it is a fav.

His night launch on STS-126:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsIV1GLLEgw

Pretty cool launch of the shuttle.

I've got a couple of buddies that went on to fly the shuttle. Rick Sturkow (Marine) and Dominic Gore (Navy). I also instructed the Kelly brothers in advanced jets (A-4). Sturkow and Gore are good guys.

I gave Curt Brown his initial check ride when he was first hired at AA. We spent quite a bit of time talking about the shuttle. He was super cool about it. Guys would always ask each other about their back grounds. Everyone in the training dept. knew who Curt was as at that time, he had flown more shuttle missions than anyone. When asked about his back ground, his response was always, "I flew some high performance gliders"!

quote:

Originally posted by Porosonik:
So.... here we are. Late July and it's still grounded. Boeing management is now talking about suspending production if the problem isn't fixed soon. That "quick and easy software fix" is proving to be elusive.

Porosonik.