I just read with great interest the post from Johan re: calibers in Europe and was really surprised at some of the caliber choices. I know very little about European rifle makers outside of Sako and Blaser but I'm sure there are a lot more. I would be interested to hear about rifle choices in Europe and the reasons why.

Well, I'll chip in my $0.02 from Central Europe.

In this part of the world, combination guns are very popular, so you see a lot of Drillings and a lot of rifle-shotgun-over-and-under (Bockbuechsflinte) combinations. Popular brands in this category include Krieghof, Blaser, Sauer, Merkel.

Single shot, break top guns are mildly popular.

Obviously, most rifles are bolt actions in some form. Of late the Blaser R93 has probably been selling around 50% of all new rifles sold. Previously, the Steyr-Mannlichers (half and full stock) were probably the most popular choice, you still see a ton of those. Sauer rifles are reasonably popular, as are Sako, Remington and Winchesters. There are also a ton of rifles built on M98 actions - or in Switzerland (only) built on the previous Swiss military straight pull action. There are obviously other manufacturer - whose rifles you see from time to time: Heym, Krico, Brno, Savage etc etc

In Austria guns manufactured in Ferlach - although there are many different Ferlach brands - are very popular - to the point where it almost becomes a "must" to have one of these if you want your taste in firearms (and wallet) to be recognized...

- mike

Well

This is a hard nut to crack

I would say that in Sweden some of the most common are the Carl Gustav 1900, Sako , Tikka. Sauer, Heym. In bolt actions There is also quite alot of different 98's.

Winchester and Remington is also popular among those who likes the American style of rifles. It seems like the American rifles are not as popular as they used to be a few years ago.

Any other Swede's fill in if I forgot anything
/ JOHAN

Johan I fill in a few.

Lots of rebuilt Mauser M96 is still in use. Most common 98:s are the Husqvarna M640 and M1600 versions.

Among new rifles Blaser M93 is a popular choice in this part of Sweden (J�mtland). Also Sako M75. Seems like young hunters now a days are ready to spend more money on expensive weapons then the older generations of hunters.

They just changed the law for semiauto 22:s (allowed for hunting now) so now is Ruger 10/22 very popular.

I'm surprised that the Blaser R93 is so popular over there. I've read a couple of articles about it and it's very expensive here in North America. Is it cheaper there or do they have plainer models that we don't see over here? I would have thought there would be more Mauser sales in Europe.

How is the Steyr SBS bolt perceived over there? I very much like the Steyr Pro Hunter .376 with 20" barrel.

[ 05-06-2003, 02:55: Message edited by: savage49494 ]

The reason of blaser being so popular is that american firearms prices are quite high in europe. The cheapest rifles are from Brno, but if you want something else, you very quickly spend 1200 euros/usd for your rifle.
In France, a remington is about this price, a sako finnlight is 1830, a tikka is 1300, and a synthetic blaser is 1500. A sauer stutzen is 1830... I wanted a ruger, you would not believe how expensive they are (1000 for a 77/22) I ended with a brno 452 at 300, it gives me 2 inch groups at 100 meters with winch subsonic HP ammo and a suppressor.
The take down capability, the security system are unique, and european hunters see this.
My 300wsm blaser is a 1/2 inch rifle at 100 meters with 150gr ballistic tip winch ammo, it travelled very easily in english airports while going in Scottland, and the security system prove to be very usefull: there was no wind at all, and any noise made while fumbling with the action to get a round in the chamber would have done great harm to our hunting, I am sure. Instead, I just silently armed the firing process and shot...

This said, the blaser is still no lightweight, and I am still after an old sako short action rifle to build a cute 308 on.
olivier
olivier

savage49494
What you have to realize is that most (or at least a LOT of) European guns are expensive. The Blaser is not cheap, but over here price-wise it falls into a large category made up of Steyr, Sauer, Heym etc etc rifles. As far as I know, the price of Blasers are not dramatically different in Europe and in the States. That can't be said for other brands - case in point a Sako 75 Varmint: price here in Switzerland approximately CHF 2900 (US$ 2070 - at current exchange rates), price in the US approximately US$1100. It is all about the market you are selling into, and how prices are set. In the US there is tough competition and the market is large, in Europe it is pretty much the other way around, so the prices you can expect to find are the "list" prices, something you'd rarely pay in the States. I still buy a bunch of my European scopes in the States, please explain to me how it can be possible to send the scopes back and forth across the Atlantic, and still end up with a saving?? It is all about the market.

The European (at least Central European) market for hunting equipment was always scewed towards the higher end of the income brackets. Historical thing probably - also has to do with hunting laws and access to hunting opportunity. It is probably not as bad in countries like Sweden and Finland, where much more hunting ground makes for a more "democratic" distribution of hunters...

The good news about all this, is that the European gun brands often provide very good quality - they are not forced to sell at such cut-throat prices as are Remington, Winchester etc. There is a market for custom guns in Europe (perhaps more so in Scandinavia?), but it not nearly as large as what you see in the States. The factory guns really fill the space of the "better" gun already.

Anyway, just a little inside into European gun trade - as seen from an office in Zurich... (our office is in a basement, so I guess that makes me qualify as one of "gnomes" of Zurich ).

- mike

[ 05-06-2003, 12:14: Message edited by: mho ]

No statsistcs to prove this, but from what I see on shooting ranges and hunting camps, the standard big game rifles in Norway is eighter a Tikka / Sako or Carl Gustav or mauser M 98 in one version or another. Lots of Brnos / CZ as well.
Calibers are mostly 6,5 Swede, 308 Win or 30-06.
Among moose hunters 9,3 x 62 are also seen.

There are also sold a lot of Remingtons 700 over the years, and also Winchester and Rugers are spotted on a regular basis.

On the west coast where the big game is Red deer aand Rein deer, the 6,5 and 308 are most popular.

Eastern, southern, central and northern part of Norway also include moose and here we see a more divers selection of calibers.

In north Norway where I hunt moose, 375 H&H and 338 Win mag. are seen on a regular basis.

Hunters what I know do not like american made rifles and shotguns. They call mossbergs, remingtons pump, browning pumps and marlin rimfires "sheet iron shop", dislike american style stock on rifles like winchester and other. Here they prefer CZ but if they can afford it they buy Blaser, Steyr, Sako or something else. About calibers they like classics like 7x64, 7x57 and 8x57 (include rimmed versions), somone .30-06, but don't like american cartridges like .308 win at all (what I know).

Jiri

Wow, Jiri. Just one man's opinion, but maybe it is better to tread lightly with political satire? After all, this is an international forum, and opinions differ across the globe. We might find an otherwise interesting thread dissolving into political bickering. You have as much right to your opinion as the next person, but it would be a pity if we can't all share our interest for firearms and hunting... IMHO, one of the best things about this forum is that we can discuss items of mutual interest with participants from South Africa to Norway or from the Far East to Bristol England...

- mike

[ 05-06-2003, 13:54: Message edited by: mho ]

Hallo mho,

have a look into the guns ownership and politics. There you can see a lot of political discussions.

On the IWA Blaser presented no. 100 000 of the R93. So it seems to be one of the popular bolt action guns.

Still M98 and his derivatives (Zastave, CZ) is very popular here and is still the basis for some fine custom made guns.

Combinations are also very popular. Krieghoff, Sauer and again Blaser, some Suhler and Heym are the most sold brand names I would say.

Shotguns are more than enough arround and you can get cheap, because small game (fasants, hare, rabbit) is getting more and more rare.

Best regards

Its hard to make a hard and fast statement with regards choices here in the UK as it depends on what segment of the market you are looking at. In .22LR for instance, the Ruger 10/22 and the old brno bolts are very popular. For foxing and as "a working grade rifle" the various American ss/plastic rifles are popular but only because the Europeans were slow to cater for this market. When it comes to stalking rifles, things are a little different. Where as there is a big market in the US for semi custom rifles, here in the UK we tend to go for the better quality mid to high price factory rifles such as Sako, Steyr, Blaser, Sauer, Carl Gustav ect. To be honest we just don't see many American rifles of similar quality over here. I would guess their competitors would be products of the Remington Custom shop or similar which are just not readily available over here?

At the bottom end of the price range in "traditiona" rifles, lots of stalkers would take a Tikka or a CZ before they would look at Remchester...we just percieve that on average the quality and the value for money is better.

As to calibers, .243win, .270win. .308 and the 30-06 are the most popular American calibers for stalking, but you will also see a lot of 7x57mm and 6.5x55mm and the odd 7x64mm as well. What you won't see is too many of the fast .30 calibers or anything much above 30-06 in general; rightly or wrongly they are generally considered "overkill" for our size game where meat wastage is a very important factor for most stalkers.

Regards,

Pete

[ 05-06-2003, 15:05: Message edited by: Pete E ]

I reckon the average British stalker is willing to pay a bit more for his rifle because (in the case of deer stalking at least) he get's to use it more and generaly has only the one rifle.

In addition very few are willing to put up with items that need modification from the box.

I'm guessing a bit here, but the cost of gunsmithing services in UK/Europe is also a lot higher than in the States. By the time you've made a couple of adjustments to a Remington or such you've already paid for a higher priced Sako etc.

I believe that Iceland has a somewhat more mixed fauna of firearms than the rest of Europe.

In rifles the US brands like Rem and Win are quite popular and then again Tikka and Sako are very popular as well. The more expensive brands like Sauer, Steyr, Blaser and others have not had a significant share of the cake probably due to the price.
223, 243, 6.5x55, 7mmRM, 308, 30-06 and 300WM are I believe the most used calibers.

In shotguns, the Italian brands like Breda, Benelli and Beretta are really popular as well as the US brands like Rem and Win.

Personally I prefer the Finnish and Czech rifles (have one of each) but intend to get a Steyr SSG-69 some day.
In shotguns I prefer the Italian ones (have a 55yr old Breda).
12ga is the shotgun caliber in Iceland

US made arms have never appealed to me for some reason.

Regards

Very interesting choices, and the caliber choices especially. It appears most Europeans would rather buy a better quality rifle and not have as many, a concept that makes sense. It also appears that Europeans don't customize as much as North Americans (we can't leave anything alone). In recent years there has been a trend to stainless steel, synthetic stocks and carbines over here. Do you see the same trend in Europe?

Yes, there are definately more and more ss/plastic rifles being offered by European makers even those that are more usually associated with high end traditional rifles. Some of that is responding to American competion and demands of civilian customer, but part of it is as a result of developing firearms designed for military/police "sniper" market....

[ 05-06-2003, 19:05: Message edited by: Pete E ]

Are there still lots of pre-WWII 98 Mausers in the field? (Oberndorfs, JP Sauers, Merkels, Haenels, etc.) How about the older Brno's? (21H, 22F, ZG-47) These kinds of rifles are my favorites, don't see many of them in the states! We have to custom make rifles to look like them!

Johan- In all seriousness, I don't go to the trouble to import rifles anymore, too much trouble and expense. I did import some from Canada & Sweden once but it was a pain, mainly problems with the importing dealer in the US (I'm not a dealer or FFL holder). If something really special came along again, I'd probably reconsider though!

fla3006
I know that is PIA to import to USA. What are you looking for?

I have the same trouble getting stuff out from USA. I load all I can carry when visiting USA and make a mule run back to Sweden. It's actually easier to import a firearm when you bring it back in person from USA to Sweden.

/ JOHAN

GBF
I recommend the original Steyr SSG69 [the green stocked rifle with the iron sights and slightly tapered bbl] over the Black stocked rifle made for the American Police market. Every green stock rifle I have shot or seen shot always shot better than the black stock bull barrelled ones. I have shot quite a few of these. I had one of each for several years.
The Kahles ZF69 scope works real well too.

NE 450 No2 Sir, do you know what the difference really is between the black stocked ones and the green stocked ones ?
Read an article the other day about the SSG-69 PII where they indeed tested the black version and it printed a 5cm (2 in) group out to 500m (550yds).

Regards

Historically hunting has been a part of the Norwegian houshold for as long people has been living here on these rugged coasts ( + 11000 years ).
Until late 1800, the hunting vas more or less free to take, but than the landowners got the right to hunt big game.
Still, the common man had and still have good access to hunting, and the tools of the trade was usually military firearms eighter in their standard configuration or modified to handle civilian calibers.

Remington fallingblocks was once Norways army rifle and many of them was used for hunting.
The same goes for the Krag and later the Mauser M96 and 98.
Hunting rifles i Norway has always been "tools of the trade" for the common man, therefor the lack of expencive custom rifles and the abundant of Remchesters, Brnos and CZ.

Norway have always had close bonds with USA and it�s clear to see in many ways, ie. the choice of hunting arms and calibers.
Perhaps more so than Sweden and Denmark wich usually was more oriented towards the continental Europe.

Hello everbody,
let me say something about hunting rifles in Slovenia.
The most common rifle is Zastava commercial Mauser (model 70, same as old Interarms Mark X or new Charles Daly in the USA). Allmost all have factory double set triggers. The most popular caliber is 7x64, others are 30-06, 7x57, 308W, 270W, 243W, 7mm RM, a couple in 300WM. There are a few Zastava Mini Mausers, mostly in 223R (with a couple in 7.62x39). There are also quite a few old military Mausers 98 made into hunting rifles, many in original 7.9mm (8x57IS). There are a few modern imported rifles such as Blaser, Sako, FN, Steyr, Mauser M96, etc. Among US rifles I saw a few Winchester 94s, Reminton 700, even a couple Ruger Number Ones, and semi-autos (Rem., Win. 100 - valued for boar hunting). The most popular 22 rifle is Brno. There are a few of us who appreciate old classics such as Mannlicher-Schoenauer or even Mannlicher M95 straight-pull.
Combination rifle-shotguns are very popular. The most numerous is Czech over/under, but there are quite some Merkel and Ferlach ones too. There is also a lot of drillings, the most popular being Merkel (made in East Germany; used to be inexpensive before 1990). Common calibers for combos are 7x57R and 7x65R. One of the most prestigious hunting guns is Ferlach drilling with one shotgun barrel, one high power barrel (such as 7x65R) and one small bore barrel (mostly 22 WMR or Hornet).
A few deer hunters prefer Czech break-open single shots in smaller bores, such as 5.6x52R (22 Savage HP; for small deer only).
Wealthy hunters prefer Swarovski riflescopes, many others use Tascos, etc.
Popular rifle ammo: Sellier & Bellot, Geco, Norma, RWS, Hirtenberger, Prvi partizan.
With kind regards,
montenegrin

Montenegrin, you have a PM

This is really quite a treat to see what our European brethern are using for hunting.

The gentleman from Norway makes me proud of my Norwegian heritage. I recently bought a 1898 Krag in 30/40, an original carbine. What a smooth action.

At first I was a little insensed at the comments from the gentleman from the Czech Republic, and his criticizm of some of the American Mossbergs, Remington, Winchester and Marlins as so much junk. These rifles are more on the lower end of what is available in the US and appeal to the price consciencious market. However I have several Marlin 22 Mags and 17 HRMs and each one will print groups at 50 yds, or meters that can be covered with an American dime, the size of an old English 6 pence. I would really think the gentleman from the Czech Republic was being a little snobbish about Czech made firearms. However after buying a CZ 452 in the last 6 months, people in the Czech Republic have a right to be snobbish about their firearms. If this CZ is an example of all CZs, then their quality is second to none.

It is also sad to see that Europeans are getting the Magnumitis that people in the USA get. The thought that a bigger caliber will make them a better hunter or perform better on game.
I agree with a lot of Scandanavians, a 6.5 x55 or 7x57 will take about any game you want that is not big enough to eat you if you don't kill it first. Last year I loaded up some ammo for a nephew in a 30/06 for him to use for deer hunting in Montana. The ammo was downloaded to have a 165 grain Nosler Ballistic tip coming out of the barrel at only 2250 fps. He was only 12 yrs old, but his dad wanted him to have a rifle he could grow into, so I loaded the ammo for him so as not to kick very much. This is loaded at the speeds of the old 30/30 Winchester.

At 175 yds ( 150-160 meters) he shot an American elk that was running broadside in front of him.
The animal went 50 yrds and down it went.
One preparing the animal to be taken out of the field, I found it had penetrated the right lung, came out the inside of the right lung with an area damaged that was a big a fist, cut the esophagus in half, and basically blew the left lung into a bowl of spaghetti. This animal weighted about 650 pounds on the hoof.

So you don't need a cannon shooting bowling ball size projectiles to take a game animal. But most of the older hunters know that.

Cheers to our European hunting brethern and I look forward to hopefully getting to meet some of you some day in the hunting fields.

seafire:

This is not pure my opinion, but I have represented what I heard from other hunters here . . .

Jiri

Re; Mausers

I am fortunate enough to own two Mausers.
One is a 1924 production VZ24. Bought from an estate, that the deceased had purchased it to add to a collection in the 1950s. The quality in this gun is a testiment to the quality of Pre WW2 European craftsmanship. It is in very good shape threw out and very accurate for a military rifle. It would be even more accurate if I mounted a scope on it. However I do not want to destroy the original straight bolt handle or drill into the receiver.

The Second Mauser is a 1920s production in 6.5 x 55 of course. It has dial elevation for up to 600 meters instead of the usual slide ones so commonly seen. It also has the straight bolt handle. All stampings are in excellent conditions. With 160 grain RN handloads, this rifle will consistently put 3 shots into half an inch or less. That is fantastic considering my crappy eyesight being 50 yrs old now.

Two other additions to my early 1900s military rifles are an 1898 Krag in 30/40 made by the Springfield Amory. It was made in 1899, and is one of 5,000 carbine models made ( if you can call a 24 inch barrel a carbine). Someone added a Lyman site to it. To my Norwegian brethern, this action is so smooth,and this rifle is very accurate, even moreso than either of the Mausers.
On hole groups at 50 yds, 2 to 3 inch groups at 200 yds with open sites. Not bad for a 1890s production rifle.

The final is a 1917 Enfield in 30/06 made by Winchester in 1918, with a 26 inch barrel, and a six round magazine. The stock has been sportized in the 1950s, and the rear sites taken off to mount a scope on it. For a 1918 production military barrel, this rifle out shoots many of my factory guns. With match bullets it as accurate as any rifle I own.

To the Europeans who might like older military rifles in GReat shape, and are still very accurate shooters, you would hate to know what I paid in the USA for these rifles, all acquired in the last 2 yrs. VZ24 was $100.00 US, the M96 was $225.00 US ( I paid more for this one because of how good of shape it was in, pristine)
the Krag was $200.00US ( and turned out to be worth about $1800.00 plus to a collector) and finally the 1917 Enfield was $100.00.

Just figured I would get a piece of history before the prices got insane or the anti gun nuts got them confiscated and destroyed.

seafire

A CG 96 has no real commerical value at the Swedish gun market. I was with a friend in a gunshop today. He wanted to get ridd of a rifle. It was in very nice condition. The price he gotten was ZERO. Hwo is that for a price?

Some of the prices in USA are fantasy and blue sky compared to Europe.
/ JOHAN

Johan,

sorry to hear the old M96 has no value in Sweden.
I am happy to have one tho. It is a good piece of history. Things Swedish are alway high quality.

I wanted one at part of a small collection of historical guns that impressed me. It is very accurate and considering it was a military rifle and made in 1920, that is a great accomplishment to me.

I would not sell this rifle at any price, because I would take a while to find another that gives me the satisfaction that this one does. I love just going to the range some days and shooting it.

People have tried to buy it from me because they wanted to cut it up for the action and make a custom gun of some sort out of it. What a loss.

There are things in this country that are not worth much to people here, but are worth a lot to someone somewhere like Sweden.

Appreciation like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I can tell you are an astute guy tho, based on your footnote about the Blazer!

Cheers my friend and good hunting out there.

In my opinion the combs are (when you can afford it) very popular. At the times of the old hunter
before WWII and 20 year more the classic drilling
(two shitgun one rifel barrel was a must have.)That has changed. A u/o rifle shotgun I think every hunters owns one.
For bore hunting the Doppelb�chsdrilling (2 rifle barrels, mostly 9,3x74R or 8x57IRS or having the money in 8x75RS) has become very popular. But thats a question of money. U/O doublebarrel rifles, mostly in 9,3.74R, from Krieghoff, Merkel Heym you often can find

Lever and pump guns I never saw for hunting, most of the calibers are not strong enough (min. 2000 joule in 100 meters)and I thing people dont rely in accuracy.

Bolt actions are very popular mostly Mauser actions or Sauer 202 and Blaser R93 (which is, I think, the most popular new rifle)

Burkhard

Here in Finland riflehunting is concentrated for moose and white tail deer. Common calibers used 308Win, 30-06, 7,62x53R, 9,3x62 and 9,3x74R. Twenty years ago 308 was must, but then 30-06 increased strongly. Recent years 9,3 calibers are jumped from almost zero to very popular and our Sako and Lapua cartridge makers are started offer cartridges for 9,3mm calibers.

Sako and Tikka are most used rifles here (not surprise), but here is still some amount of Mosin-Nagant bolt actions used by "oldtimers". Here is too Central-European rifles (Sauer, Heym, Blaser, Steyr and so on..)and North-American too, but domestic rifles dominate markets. Sako was quite inexpensive gun here, before Beretta bought Sako Ltd and raised prices.