Does anyone have extensive experience of the effectiveness of using shotguns with large diameter shot for hunting deer and soild slugs for hunting feral/pigs/boar?

With the increasing problems caused by peri-urban deer in the UK along the spread of feral pigs/boar I can see a time where a ressurgance of the use of shotguns for the of control peri-urban deer and feral pigs/boar populations becomes a reality.

Buckshot for deer ? Keep it within 25 m !! Use [American sizes] 00 or 000 .Slugs for pigs - Brenneke slugs always have had a good reputation. In the USA some states permit rifled barreled shotguns for deer. There use a sabot slug.

The use of a shot gun to control deer in the UK is very strictly regulated. Thank our so-called "friends" in various "deer welfare" societies for that!

Essentially IT MUST be twelve bore and IT MUST use only a specified one of two shot sizes or slug.

The legislation then goes further to add other conditions of enclosure and occupier status.

So check-up beforehand!

Wild boar OTH have no such legislation pertaining to them so a modern twenty bore with slug could be used etc.

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
Buckshot for deer ? Keep it within 25 m !! Use [American sizes] 00 or 000 .Slugs for pigs - Brenneke slugs always have had a good reputation. In the USA some states permit rifled barreled shotguns for deer. There use a sabot slug.

I have used shot and slug both smooth and brenneke in the past. But have never had the opportunity to try the sabot type slugs. What distance are they effective too?

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
The use of a shot gun to control deer in the UK is very strictly regulated. Thank our so-called "friends" in various "deer welfare" societies for that!

Essentially IT MUST be twelve bore and IT MUST use only a specified one of two shot sizes or slug.

The legislation then goes further to add other conditions of enclosure and occupier status.

So check-up beforehand!

Wild boar OTH have no such legislation pertaining to them so a modern twenty bore with slug could be used etc.

Richard

I'm also aware that the law varies bepending upon which side of Hadrians wall you happen to be. Like many I sometimes wonder if we as stalkers could well do without our so-called "friends" in various "deer welfare" societies. IMO they are be view along similar lines as the wildfowlers view the RSPB.

A 20bore with a slug would be an idea pig stopper. I'd be inclined to opt for something a little larger on mature sows and big boars though.

There's nothing safer to use in close quarters than a 12b with a magnum charge of SSG's to dispatch RTA deer. Out to 20 yds it bowls over the biggest fallow buck.

I'm not sure I would want to use it as a primary stalking gun though.

I know friends that have used the same on driven boar in eastern Europe to good effect.

K

I understand that any shotgun and ammunition that will kill a deer to be humanely dispatched may be used in extremis.

I had to cull a fallow doe that was in a very poor way after a suspected RTA on my little patch down your way. I happened to have some 36g BB shells left over, I was out shooting rabbits, and they did the job at 15 yards.

I aimed for the head as I wasn't sure if they would penetrate or not.

Ideally of course I would have used a rifle but of course hadn't taken a 30.06 bunny shooting...

Jool, there was a post a while back on the forum by someone who gave info on his Browning auto with rifled barrel and sabots .IIRC 1-2" groups at 100 yds. It' akin to our 45-70 rifle. Not too bad eh ??

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:
There's nothing safer to use in close quarters than a 12b with a magnum charge of SSG's to dispatch RTA deer. Out to 20 yds it bowls over the biggest fallow buck.

I'm not sure I would want to use it as a primary stalking gun though.

I know friends that have used the same on driven boar in eastern Europe to good effect.

K

I'm well aware of the effectiveness of a ounce of AAA's or ssg's. I know several older keepers that have scored numerous left and rights on everything up to fallow bucks.

For the problem of controling deer numbers in a peri-urban environment I would class them as almost ideal. Combine their knock down capability at 25m with the levels of accuracy that Mete has posted when using sobot solids makes the task a darn sight easier and safer IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
Jool, there was a post a while back on the forum by someone who gave info on his Browning auto with rifled barrel and sabots .IIRC 1-2" groups at 100 yds. It' akin to our 45-70 rifle. Not too bad eh ??

Not bad at all. Presumably rifled S/A barrels are readily availabe?

The rifled barrel shotguns have become very popular and the choice is large .Browning Maxus and Silver are available and the A-Bolt shotgun too !Make sure a rifled barrel meets the definition of 'shotgun' where you are.Rifled barrels don't work with shot very well -with poor patterns.
Rifled chokes are available too but don't offer the accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
The rifled barrel shotguns have become very popular and the choice is large .Browning Maxus and Silver are available and the A-Bolt shotgun too !Make sure a rifled barrel meets the definition of 'shotgun' where you are.Rifled barrels don't work with shot very well -with poor patterns.
Rifled chokes are available too but don't offer the accuracy.

Unfortunately as soon as you cut a groove down the inside of any barrel here in the UK it becomes subject to the same classification as a rifle or hand gun.

Jools

Rifled shotguns are classified the same as a rifle not a hand gun. The former is a section 1 weapon and the latter a section 5, (prohibited weapon).

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:
Jools

Rifled shotguns are classified the same as a rifle not a hand gun. The former is a section 1 weapon and the latter a section 5, (prohibited weapon).

Correct to a point.. What I meant to post was "some hand guns".

I've been using shotgun for 18 years on boar with most of slugs and sabots on the market. To be honest all rifled slugs are great in the limit of 40m when the hit is in vital area but if it's gut shot or poor shot the animals can go longer way than when shot with powerful rifle bullet. Slugs on bigger animals don't always give an exit wound or lot's of meat damage. The longest kill was on boar of 140kg at 90+M WITH B&P PALLA GUALANDI 1050bar slug. With brenneke the longest kill was at 80m (Magnum Rotweil 600gr).
Sabots are great, I prefer them than any rifle bullet. The best in my opinion was Win Gold Supreme Partition 12/76mm or 3". These are extremely powerful even beyond 100m. Every boar 50-220kg dropped down in few meters. The penetration is just unbelievable. I remember a shot at big keiller 160kg at 70m. The bullet went in to the chest and exited through hip.
All sabots and rifled slugs I 've been using in smooth barrel shotgun O/U IZ 27. This gun likes all of them but win partition and brennekas more than the others.
My short barrel Win 1300 Defender likes only heavy rifled slugs. With sabots is very bad after 25m.
I used 00 000 AA ,all the buckshot on the market and all I can say is that they are OK up to 30m (sometimes even at that range the pattern can be so spread that usually only 1 or 2 pellets hit the animal) if the animal is not too big. The penetration is poor usually and the blood trail too. We recovered lots of boar being wounded with big pellets. They are banned in Croatia for long time with good reason. However, I like to have them if I go to thick bush tracking wounded boar or even a brown bear. I put slug than buckshot slug buckshot until my magazine in Win 1300 is full. In this circumstances my kills are in 2-15m range. Win buckshot with 12 pellets is one of the best I've tried so far. The French "Tunet" (that was on written on the cartridge was very good too.

Artemis

Thank you for the information. Its iteresting that you've had excellent results from both solid and sabot slugs out of a smooth unrifled barrel.

I certainly believe the increased use of shotguns loaded with the correct cartridge is the way forward in dealing with the growing problem of Peri-urban deer and feral pigs here in the UK.

From across the pond. We are required to use shotgun slugs on deer in my state. Smooth bore rifled slugs seem to do well to around 40-65yards. It just depends upon how accurately they shoot from your gun. Try different chokes as this can make a huge difference in accuracy. I have one gun, a Browning, that shoots very well with a full choke and Foster style slugs. Another gun with a cylinder bore shoots Brennekes or Fosters equally well, and it gives 3-5" groups at 50 yards.

For the past decade or so I've been shooting the Sabot style slugs from rifled barrels. Range again depends on accuracy. You will need to try different brands of slugs to find one that shoots well in your gun. I've found that Remington Copper Solids do very well for me in 20 and 12 gauge. The Copper Solid also seems to have less recoil than the "magnum" or high velocity slugs and, in my guns, are good to 100 yards. Find one that shoots well in your gun and go with it.

The type of slug doesn't really matter much as far as terminal ballistics go. You'll find guys telling stories of slugs failing to expand, or deer running off full of lead never to be recovered. I have yet to see anything like this. In a 12 gauge you are throwing a one ounce plus chunk of lead 1/2" plus in diameter at an animal, if you hit it in the vitals it will die. If you screw up the shot you will have a tracking job.

For comparison our deer are well fed and mature bucks usually weigh between 250-350lbs.

The majoriy of our peri-urban deer population is comprised of muntjac and roe. They run from 25-55lb which would make the use of 1/2ounce slugs a little OTT. However they would be ideal for use on the occassional fallow that like t reside on the very edges of the peri-urban areas.For the majority of the time I think close range shots using AAA and above sized shot is the way forward. Reserving the solids for the burgeoning feral pig populations that are now proving difficult to control let alone eradicate.

Unfortunatelky we suffer from a wide spread misguided aversion to the hunting of any aninmal larger than a rabbit with a shotgun here in the UK. Even the British Deer Society has gone as far as to try and campaign for a change in the law regarding their already highly restricted usage for controlling deer.A rather short sighted and blinkered view IMO Given that thousands of deer and other larger species are harvested very successfully all around the world using shotguns and large diameter shot or slugs.

Hi, just wanted to let you know the common thoughts in Norway on the use of shotgun for roe. Although somewhat controversial here too, it is completely legal and in widespread use. For many, they are the preferred gun for our driven, late autumn hunts using a single basset, beagle, dachs or the like.

There are no restrictions on shot size, and most that I know of use uk size 1-4. Surprisingly small shot, perhaps? Perhaps due to it being illegal until a few years ago buckshot is not very much in use, so I leave judgement on that up to others. I have limited experience myself, but I do not think shot size is of great importance from the kills I have witnessed.

What is clear, however, is that use of a shotgun requires great discipline when it comes to shot distances. The accepted limit here is somewhere around 20-25m. Longer distances give an increased risk of pricked animals.

As with most things, it is difficult to decide conclusively, but a shotgun used responsibly can definitely be a humane and effective tool for smallish deer.

quote:

Originally posted by Muntjac:
Hi, just wanted to let you know the common thoughts in Norway on the use of shotgun for roe. Although somewhat controversial here too, it is completely legal and in widespread use. For many, they are the preferred gun for our driven, late autumn hunts using a single basset, beagle, dachs or the like.

There are no restrictions on shot size, and most that I know of use uk size 1-4. Surprisingly small shot, perhaps? Perhaps due to it being illegal until a few years ago buckshot is not very much in use, so I leave judgement on that up to others. I have limited experience myself, but I do not think shot size is of great importance from the kills I have witnessed.

What is clear, however, is that use of a shotgun requires great discipline when it comes to shot distances. The accepted limit here is somewhere around 20-25m. Longer distances give an increased risk of pricked animals.

As with most things, it is difficult to decide conclusively, but a shotgun used responsibly can definitely be a humane and effective tool for smallish deer.

What is the position with pigs and slugs in Norway?

Every drive hunt I've been on has been a little careful over the use of slugs because of the increased ricochet risk, they can be like giant .22 bullets.

I gather it's mainly for the sake of the dogs.

Having hunted and shot both deer and boar with shotgun and 6mm ball in Lithuania and also been regularly involved in culling deer in difficult urban and peri urban situations in the UK, I don't buy the argument for using them here for that purpose at all.
I think better, more certain results are to be had from a moderated rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Muntjac:
Hi, just wanted to let you know the common thoughts in Norway on the use of shotgun for roe. Although somewhat controversial here too, it is completely legal and in widespread use. For many, they are the preferred gun for our driven, late autumn hunts using a single basset, beagle, dachs or the like.

There are no restrictions on shot size, and most that I know of use uk size 1-4. Surprisingly small shot, perhaps? Perhaps due to it being illegal until a few years ago buckshot is not very much in use, so I leave judgement on that up to others. I have limited experience myself, but I do not think shot size is of great importance from the kills I have witnessed.

What is clear, however, is that use of a shotgun requires great discipline when it comes to shot distances. The accepted limit here is somewhere around 20-25m. Longer distances give an increased risk of pricked animals.

As with most things, it is difficult to decide conclusively, but a shotgun used responsibly can definitely be a humane and effective tool for smallish deer.

I understand completely why they are your preffered choice. It would be mine also.
I agree the use of shtguns requires an entirely different mind set. Like you I'm aware that at 20-25m that buckshot isn't always required. We are required by law to use shot of 6mm or greater. Hence AAA's as a minimum. Which would be my personal choice. For foxes I tend to favour #3's and I have shot dozens very successfully with that choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Trapper Dave:
Having hunted and shot both deer and boar with shotgun and 6mm ball in Lithuania and also been regularly involved in culling deer in difficult urban and peri urban situations in the UK, I don't buy the argument for using them here for that purpose at all.
I think better, more certain results are to be had from a moderated rifle.

The main problem you have by choosing to use a rifle moderated or not is the lack of or unsuitable back stops. Plus the much increased chance that some dozy, trespassing urbanite will be stood behind it just waiting to stick their head up.Such potentially lethal problems are much reduced by the use of a shotgun. Especially as the location becomes more urban. I don't think either are ideal for a truely urban environment.
I'm not saying they are they answer to every peri-urban deer problem but I do believe they fit the bill far better than c/f rifles for a good proportion of the situations. Gas operated s/a's allow for rapid shooting that doesn't require your targets to be staionary.Which is often of significant benefit.

If you're worried about annoying the neighbours how about using a hushpower moderated shotgun.

Jools - I am very surprised you have not mentioned a Paradox gun, especially since you are in the UK. The Paradox gun fires a 740gr 12ga lead bullet and is very effective to 100yards. The upside to a Paradox gun is that you can also use shotshells in it. It will shoot everything from SSGs to #9s. I often see second-hand Paradox guns for sale at UK auctions and the prices there are much more reasonable then the same guns go for in the USA.

From What Is A Paradox? : "It is also ideal for use in areas where high-velocity rifles may be prohibited but where a potent short-range bullet is ideal. Weighing much the same the "Paradox" model is endowed with all the handling characteristics of a classic shotgun, making it ideal for quick snap shots in shrub or forest. "

An interesting if somewhat expensive solution. As I believe they require the special Fosbery solid ammunition only available from H&H themselves. At £45 per box of ten.
I believe you have a couple of US manufactured altrnatives that aren't available over here.On a personal note I perfer to shoot with an O/U or S/A. IIRC all Paradox guns are S/S.

Theory is all well and good, but to think a slug safer in peri-urban environment that a light, fast, frangible deer bullet demonstrates a lack of either common sense or practical experience.

I culled roe on a patch of ground in Surrey for with a caravan park one side, houses on the other and a busy road on the third.

I wouldn't shoot a .22 HPs there unless the ground was very wet in case of ricochets, an ounce slug of reasonably hard lead at the same sort of velocity for those deer.

This is borne out by my experiences of driven shooting.

An (ideally) elevated shooting position and something like a 75grain v-max in a .243 that unlikely to exit on a broadside shot is obviously much safer.

I should like to see the backstop that is suitable for slug but not an appropriate bullet from a rifle.

Goober.
If you bothered to read the thread before climbing on your high horse and making a prize ass of yourself . You'll find that I have never recommended slugs for deer in a peri-urban environment.

However slugs are ideal for feral pigs.

Perhaps read before you jump in with both feet might be the order of the day where you are concerned.

quote:

Originally posted by Jools:
Goober.
If you bothered to read the thread before climbing on your high horse and making a prize ass of yourself . You'll find that I have never recommended slugs for deer in a peri-urban environment.

However slugs are ideal for feral pigs.

Perhaps read before you jump in with both feet might be the order of the day where you are concerned.

Tetchy or what?

The thing is, when dealing with someone who has confessed to having no relevant experience with something, you can't be too careful.

Just making sure that you benefit from the knowledge of more accomplished and experienced hunters and don't do anything illegal or stupid.

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

quote:

Originally posted by Jools:
Goober.
If you bothered to read the thread before climbing on your high horse and making a prize ass of yourself . You'll find that I have never recommended slugs for deer in a peri-urban environment.

However slugs are ideal for feral pigs.

Perhaps read before you jump in with both feet might be the order of the day where you are concerned.

Tetchy or what?

The thing is, when dealing with someone who has confessed to having no relevant experience with something, you can't be too careful.

Just making sure that you benefit from the knowledge of more accomplished and experienced hunters and don't do anything illegal or stupid.

There you go again making an ass of yourself. I have never confessed to "to having no relevant experience".

Only fools rush in.

When you become an experienced and accomplished hunter be sure to let us all know. I'm prepared to wait as long as it takes.

quote:

Originally posted by Jools:

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

quote:

Originally posted by Jools:
Goober.
If you bothered to read the thread before climbing on your high horse and making a prize ass of yourself . You'll find that I have never recommended slugs for deer in a peri-urban environment.

However slugs are ideal for feral pigs.

Perhaps read before you jump in with both feet might be the order of the day where you are concerned.

Tetchy or what?

The thing is, when dealing with someone who has confessed to having no relevant experience with something, you can't be too careful.

Just making sure that you benefit from the knowledge of more accomplished and experienced hunters and don't do anything illegal or stupid.

There you go again making an ass of yourself. I have never confessed to "to having no relevant experience".

Only fools rush in.

When you become an experienced and accomplished hunter be sure to let us all know. I'm prepared to wait as long as it takes.

You'll be long dead I suspect, rationality remains a closed book to what passes for your mind.

So how many deer have you shot with a shotgun then?

There seems rather limited circumstances where it is advisable and legal, you must be a real specialist.

Boar and slugs have been covered by the experienced and the accomplished, I note we agree.

Whatever dude!

Riveting conversationalist aren't you?

I quite understand why you'd prefer not to go into your shooting of deer with a shotgun experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
Riveting conversationalist aren't you?

You Betcha! With the right people of course.

quote:

I quite understand why you'd prefer not to go into your shooting of deer with a shotgun experience.

Happy to discuss my experiences. With the less challenged of course.

You'll have to just go fish elsewheres.

Whatever dude!

quote:

Originally posted by Jools:

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
Riveting conversationalist aren't you?

You Betcha! With the right people of course.

quote:

I quite understand why you'd prefer not to go into your shooting of deer with a shotgun experience.

Happy to discuss my experiences. With the less challenged of course.

You'll have to just go fish elsewheres.

Whatever dude!

We're all "less challenged" than you squire.

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

quote:

Originally posted by Jools:

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
Riveting conversationalist aren't you?

You Betcha! With the right people of course.

quote:

I quite understand why you'd prefer not to go into your shooting of deer with a shotgun experience.

Happy to discuss my experiences. With the less challenged of course.

You'll have to just go fish elsewheres.

Whatever dude!

We're all "less challenged" than you squire.

Sadly that's just not the case where you are concerned.

As for being a Squire. Close but not quite right.

Congratulations, inbreeding was implied but "idiot" was indeed the intended meaning.

You need a slight reality check, who do you think you're impressing?

The guys who know me and my experience personally?

Just who do you do you think have written you off as a "chippy moron" then?

It's not just me who's got you down for what you are.

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
Congratulations, inbreeding was implied but "idiot" was indeed the intended meaning.

You need a slight reality check, who do you think you're impressing?

The guys who know me and my experience personally?

Just who do you do you think have written you off as a "chippy moron" then?

It's not just me who's got you down for what you are.

Tetch tetchy. Showing your true self again Goober. A classic wannabee.
Theres a certain thing that comes from experience... its called maturity. Something you could well do with a large dose of.


Whatever dude!

quote:

Originally posted by Jools:

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
Congratulations, inbreeding was implied but "idiot" was indeed the intended meaning.

You need a slight reality check, who do you think you're impressing?

The guys who know me and my experience personally?

Just who do you do you think have written you off as a "chippy moron" then?

It's not just me who's got you down for what you are.

Tetch tetchy. Showing your true self again Goober. A classic wannabee.
Theres a certain thing that comes from experience... its called maturity. Something you could well do with a large dose of.


Whatever dude!

Maturity is realising that when one's particular brand of chippy, wannabee "Love me, I'm really knowledgeable about deer" conversational fertiliser is not appreciated or needed, considering the depth of experience freely available on here, to stop being an anonymous coprophage and to grow up a little.

Perhaps we've got off on the wrong foot, how about I take you to lunch wherever is convenient to you and we discuss this like adults?

Unless you prefer anonymity of course.

Goober
Opinions are like arseholes everyone has one.
They are also like buses.Wait around long enough and the one you have been waiting for will eventually turn up. Yours are no different. Apart from the lack of maturity that is.
I'll leave you to induldge in what ever form of coprophagy you choose.Its never been something I have fancied or engaged in.

We never got off on the wrong foot I have had you taped from the get go.In regards to lunch and anonymity. Like I said I'm choosey about my friends and I'm ceratinly choosey about who I eat lunch with, even when its free. As they say there's no such thing as a free lunch. As you pay the price sooner or later, and in this particular case I'm certain it would be the former.

So it has to be thanks but no thanks.

See ya around sonny.

quote:

Originally posted by Jools:
Goober
Opinions are like arseholes everyone has one.
They are also like buses.Wait around long enough and the one you have been waiting for will eventually turn up. Yours are no different. Apart from the lack of maturity that is.
I'll leave you to induldge in what ever form of coprophagy you choose.Its never been something I have fancied or engaged in.

We never got off on the wrong foot I have had you taped from the get go.In regards to lunch and anonymity. Like I said I'm choosey about my friends and I'm ceratinly choosey about who I eat lunch with, even when its free. As they say there's no such thing as a free lunch. As you pay the price sooner or later, and in this particular case I'm certain it would be the former.

So it has to be thanks but no thanks.

See ya around sonny.

So you prefer anonymity then, what a surprise...

You have to realise, I'm not the one with the credibility crisis.

It's this guy:

quote:

Opinions are like arseholes everyone has one.
They are also like buses.Wait around long enough and the one you have been waiting for will eventually turn up.

And the wait for him to come back is over and it seems he's so choosy this time that that suddenly he can't possibly compromise his principles, ie putting his money where his mouth is.

I'll just keep paying my taxes so you can keep enjoying your lunch, girly-man.