3 people a year die in deer related RCA's with scores suffering serious injury.
According to the Deer Collision Database, there are up to 50K deer related RCA's in the UK a year.And the number is growing yearly.

If you add in the number of illegally poached deer taken by the dogmen and organised poaching gangs

My question is who or what really controls the deer numbers in the UK. The motor vehicle and poachers or we stalkers?

They are not controlled - numbers continue to rise.

I grew up in Pennsylvania and I recall reading one time that more deer were killed by being his with a car or truck each year (in Pennsylvania) than were shot by hunters in most of the other states -- I think the only states excluded were Texas and or 3 others.

My point exactly Bill.

The major controlling factors on most deer populations are RCA's and poaching. It certainly is here in the UK.


Stalkers(hunters) especially recreational stalkers(hunters) merely deal with what's left, and as such don't do a particularly good job.If you accept that the deer population in most regions is on the increase.

Hence the need for the DCS and DI to step in with their culling teams.

quote:

Originally posted by GOONMYSON:

Hence the need for the DCS and DI to step in with their culling teams.

And your point is what?

Should we "amateurs" stay at home and allow you "professionals" to get on with the task of eradicating deer like they are vermin??

Self appointed experts in DMG's and DI's?

quote:

Originally posted by GOONMYSON:
My point exactly Bill.

The major controlling factors on most deer populations are RCA's and poaching. It certainly is here in the UK.


Stalkers(hunters) especially recreational stalkers(hunters) merely deal with what's left, and as such don't do a particularly good job.If you accept that the deer population in most regions is on the increase.

Hence the need for the DCS and DI to step in with their culling teams.

It seems he's back chaps.

Amir, my thoughts exactly.

If it walks like a duck.......

Reporting for duty Ghubert

as "Legionnaires of Bambiwackers" this autumn

quote:

Originally posted by Claret_Dabbler:
And your point is what?

Should we "amateurs" stay at home and allow you "professionals" to get on with the task of eradicating deer like they are vermin??

Self appointed experts in DMG's and DI's?

I guess my points are.50K RCA casualties a year is more deer than any recreational stalker will shoot in 10 lifetimes. Recreational stalkers are deluding themselves if they think they are the significant impactor upon the UK deer population. With the inevitable increase in deer numbers, often on a localised bases, the cull regimes implemented by the DCS and DI will continue and become more numerous. Inflammatory, and emotive remarks along the lines of professionals shoot deer like they were vermin shows a complete lack of understanding and ignorance. Uninformed and misguided amatuers who think they are the only ones who respect their quarry abound in live quarry shooting sports. But seem to predominate in deer stalking where they tend to over react, place deer on some kind of reverential pedestal, consistently fail to cull sufficient numbers, etc. etc. etc.

Just for the record I'm no professional culler of deer, I'm just an amateur with 40+ years of trying to learn the game under his belt. But without the rose tinted glasses and blinkers worn by so many internet marksmen, stalkers, wannabees. Many of whom seem to congregate on deer and shooting web sites instead of getting out and doing what they preach.

Here endeth the lesson.

WOW............

Brian

Before you go all emotive and reactionary on us again.


Definition of vermin. Singular or plural noun. 1 a collective name for animals that cause a nuisance, and are difficult to control 2 animals that at a particular time and place compete for and or cause damage to habitat, property, or preserved species be that either flora or fauna.

Its a funny old world.

GOONMYSON, what do you suggest as a positive solution to this?

I assume, as an amateur stalker you would like to see more opportunities opened up for effective management?

Would be interested to hear your views. I guess the point is that most amateur stalkers enjoy stalking deer more than they enjoy killing the numbers that landowners would like to see taken. I am in a syndicate that shoots over 170 deer a season on a relatively modest area, yet the landowners are still unhappy.

quote:

Originally posted by Boghossian:
GOONMYSON, what do you suggest as a positive solution to this?

I assume, as an amateur stalker you would like to see more opportunities opened up for effective management?

Would be interested to hear your views. I guess the point is that most amateur stalkers enjoy stalking deer more than they enjoy killing the numbers that landowners would like to see taken. I am in a syndicate that shoots over 170 deer a season on a relatively modest area, yet the landowners are still unhappy.

Boggy

Suggestions? ..........Hmmm now thats a tricky one.

I would like to see effective management full stop. As already shown recreational stalkers(hunters) alone rarely if ever effectively manage deer populations. RCA's and poaching kill more deer each year than amateur stalkers on their best efforts. I'm not in favour of this drive to open up ground to those wannabes and occasional stalkers just so they can indulge their bucket lists and desires to wander around with a firearm over their shoulder. Commercialism in never a good bed fellow with sound management practices but then neither is a free for all. Managing deer is a serious business. Its not something that should be taken lightly, seen as a way of communing with nature, or filling the freezer. All traits of the amateur. Neither should it be seen as simply a way to make money.

Amateur stalkers? Granted there are some who work hard, put in the time and effort, learn all they can to improve their knowledge, have the skills and experience, and do a good but limited job. Its a petty that their numbers are so small.

I think you'll find the way of the world is. You can't do enough to please some people and you can't do right from wrong for others.

quote:

Originally posted by GOONMYSON:

quote:

Originally posted by Boghossian:
GOONMYSON, what do you suggest as a positive solution to this?

I assume, as an amateur stalker you would like to see more opportunities opened up for effective management?

Would be interested to hear your views. I guess the point is that most amateur stalkers enjoy stalking deer more than they enjoy killing the numbers that landowners would like to see taken. I am in a syndicate that shoots over 170 deer a season on a relatively modest area, yet the landowners are still unhappy.

Boggy

Suggestions? ..........Hmmm now thats a tricky one.

I would like to see effective management full stop. As already shown recreational stalkers(hunters) alone rarely if ever effectively manage deer populations. RCA's and poaching kill more deer each year than amateur stalkers on their best efforts. I'm not in favour of this drive to open up ground to those wannabes and occasional stalkers just so they can indulge their bucket lists and desires to wander around with a firearm over their shoulder. Commercialism in never a good bed fellow with sound management practices but then neither is a free for all. Managing deer is a serious business. Its not something that should be taken lightly, seen as a way of communing with nature, or filling the freezer. All traits of the amateur. Neither should it be seen as simply a way to make money.

Amateur stalkers? Granted there are some who work hard, put in the time and effort, learn all they can to improve their knowledge, have the skills and experience, and do a good but limited job. Its a petty that their numbers are so small.

I think you'll find the way of the world is. You can't do enough to please some people and you can't do right from wrong for others.

So what you are saying is that deer management is deer management, not filling the freezer or communing with nature etc.

What do you make of stalking then?

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

quote:

Originally posted by GOONMYSON:

quote:

Originally posted by Boghossian:
GOONMYSON, what do you suggest as a positive solution to this?

I assume, as an amateur stalker you would like to see more opportunities opened up for effective management?

Would be interested to hear your views. I guess the point is that most amateur stalkers enjoy stalking deer more than they enjoy killing the numbers that landowners would like to see taken. I am in a syndicate that shoots over 170 deer a season on a relatively modest area, yet the landowners are still unhappy.

Boggy

Suggestions? ..........Hmmm now thats a tricky one.

I would like to see effective management full stop. As already shown recreational stalkers(hunters) alone rarely if ever effectively manage deer populations. RCA's and poaching kill more deer each year than amateur stalkers on their best efforts. I'm not in favour of this drive to open up ground to those wannabes and occasional stalkers just so they can indulge their bucket lists and desires to wander around with a firearm over their shoulder. Commercialism in never a good bed fellow with sound management practices but then neither is a free for all. Managing deer is a serious business. Its not something that should be taken lightly, seen as a way of communing with nature, or filling the freezer. All traits of the amateur. Neither should it be seen as simply a way to make money.

Amateur stalkers? Granted there are some who work hard, put in the time and effort, learn all they can to improve their knowledge, have the skills and experience, and do a good but limited job. Its a petty that their numbers are so small.

I think you'll find the way of the world is. You can't do enough to please some people and you can't do right from wrong for others.

So what you are saying is that deer management is deer management, not filling the freezer or communing with nature etc.

What do you make of stalking then?

Bert

Correct. Filling the freezer, communing with nature are secondary considerations or should be.

It depends upon your definition of stalking I suppose. A bit like Brian's definition of vermin.

So don't be shy, why not be bold and open the batting. What's your definition of stalking as a resident of our capital city you don't get that many herds of majestic reds or whistling sika stopping by for a nibble of some tasty shrubbery. Now if you were in Sheffield, Leeds or Glasgow you would at least have the resident urban Roe population.

"Amateur" stalkers could easily achieve the required cull if they were given access to the land..

While access to stalking is highly restricted, of course deer numbers will rise...

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
"Amateur" stalkers could easily achieve the required cull if they were given access to the land..

While access to stalking is highly restricted, of course deer numbers will rise...

Sorry Pete I don't agree. How many of them would you want to give access to 500, 1000, 5000? They are not known as amateur stalkers for nowt.

Unworkable, unrealistic, unmanageable, unreliable, uncontrollable.

Whilst the DCS and DI are not the be all and end all they are at least accountable, credible, realistic and manageable.

Goonmyson,
or whoever you are!
you say RTA's account for more deer than recreational stalkers.
Perhaps your infinite knowledge will have the figures to hand.

I mut say that your posts are somewhat confrontational, have you been ejected from any other hunting websites? I'm sure that your heading in that direction on this site..

regards
griff

That post could well bring back to mind the suggestion that radio collars be fitted to all Deer, that is Deer on the loose!

quote:

Originally posted by GOONMYSON:

Bert

Correct. Filling the freezer, communing with nature are secondary considerations or should be.

It depends upon your definition of stalking I suppose. A bit like Brian's definition of vermin.

So don't be shy, why not be bold and open the batting. What's your definition of stalking as a resident of our capital city you don't get that many herds of majestic reds or whistling sika stopping by for a nibble of some tasty shrubbery. Now if you were in Sheffield, Leeds or Glasgow you would at least have the resident urban Roe population.

Well my son,


My definition of stalking is the eradication of deer from all populated areas of the uk, with the shooting done by teams of highly trained marksmen, until the roads are safe for honest travelers once more.

Lacking, as I necessarily do, the sense of realism, management skills, reliability and, of course, controlability of the trained marksman, or internet fantasist, I however currently limit myself to enjoying my hobby.

A selfish cove; a stalking man, a bounder and a cad I am.

Regards,

GH

quote:

Originally posted by griff:
Goonmyson,
or whoever you are!
you say RTA's account for more deer than recreational stalkers.
Perhaps your infinite knowledge will have the figures to hand.

I mut say that your posts are somewhat confrontational, have you been ejected from any other hunting websites? I'm sure that your heading in that direction on this site..

regards
griff

Neil

They are not my figures they are the figures of the DCD study. I'm sure someone of your capability should be capable of finding them for themselves if they really wanted to. Google, Yahoo, Ask etc are fairly easy to use.

Sorry if I've disrupted the cosy happy family atmos. Being a newbie and having no desire to be invited in to the inner circle and all that. I always thought forums such as AR were about the open discussion of points of interest by adults, not the engenderment of a mutual appreciation clique, or for the purposes of a social networking group. Activities I have always associated more with the likes of the WI Facebook etc.

Lets us know how your long range shooting weekend course goes.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Latham:
That post could well bring back to mind the suggestion that radio collars be fitted to all Deer, that is Deer on the loose!

Steve

Which bright spark made that suggestion?

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

quote:

Originally posted by GOONMYSON:

Bert

Correct. Filling the freezer, communing with nature are secondary considerations or should be.

It depends upon your definition of stalking I suppose. A bit like Brian's definition of vermin.

So don't be shy, why not be bold and open the batting. What's your definition of stalking as a resident of our capital city you don't get that many herds of majestic reds or whistling sika stopping by for a nibble of some tasty shrubbery. Now if you were in Sheffield, Leeds or Glasgow you would at least have the resident urban Roe population.

Well my son,


My definition of stalking is the eradication of deer from all populated areas of the uk, with the shooting done by teams of highly trained marksmen, until the roads are safe for honest travelers once more.

Lacking, as I necessarily do, the sense of realism, management skills, reliability and, of course, controlability of the trained marksman, or internet fantasist, I however currently limit myself to enjoying my hobby.

A selfish cove; a stalking man, a bounder and a cad I am.

Regards,

GH

Bert

I shall treat your above post in the same manner in which it was posted.

I hope you continue to enjoy your hobby, recreation, spare time amusement.

GOONMYSON,
you made the statement! "RTA'S account for more deer than the recreational stalker".
For you to make that statement one would presume that you had some figures to hand that would back up your statement..

And what inner circle are you talking about!
Are you referring to the members that have been here since its inception or the fact that one or two of us actually know each other..

Perhaps I have got hold of the wrong end of the stick,but it seems that your posts are constructed to cause offense to just about everyone on this site...

regards
griff

quote:

Originally posted by GOONMYSON:

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

quote:

Originally posted by GOONMYSON:

Bert

Correct. Filling the freezer, communing with nature are secondary considerations or should be.

It depends upon your definition of stalking I suppose. A bit like Brian's definition of vermin.

So don't be shy, why not be bold and open the batting. What's your definition of stalking as a resident of our capital city you don't get that many herds of majestic reds or whistling sika stopping by for a nibble of some tasty shrubbery. Now if you were in Sheffield, Leeds or Glasgow you would at least have the resident urban Roe population.

Well my son,


My definition of stalking is the eradication of deer from all populated areas of the uk, with the shooting done by teams of highly trained marksmen, until the roads are safe for honest travelers once more.

Lacking, as I necessarily do, the sense of realism, management skills, reliability and, of course, controlability of the trained marksman, or internet fantasist, I however currently limit myself to enjoying my hobby.

A selfish cove; a stalking man, a bounder and a cad I am.

Regards,

GH

Bert

I shall treat your above post in the same manner in which it was posted.

I hope you continue to enjoy your hobby, recreation, spare time amusement.

Declaring already?

I hope you continue to enjoy your road safety campaign, loosing friends and alienating people.

Inner circle indeed.......

Certainly won't be one of the "in crowd"

quote:

Originally posted by griff:
GOONMYSON,
you made the statement! "RTA'S account for more deer than the recreational stalker".
For you to make that statement one would presume that you had some figures to hand that would back up your statement..

And what inner circle are you talking about!
Are you referring to the members that have been here since its inception or the fact that one or two of us actually know each other..

Perhaps I have got hold of the wrong end of the stick,but it seems that your posts are constructed to cause offense to just about everyone on this site...

regards
griff

Neil

If you care to look back through this thread you'll find I have never made that statement. What I actually posted was

quote:

RCA's and poaching kill more deer each year than amateur stalkers on their best efforts.

The RCA figures come from the RCD study. The "presumption" that RCA's and poaching account for more deer than recreational stalkers comes from a number of studies, estimates, guessimates, that have been published either in subject related articles(both pro and anti), DMG returns, localised studies, IIRC the re was a FA report on the matter some years ago. If we are going to discuss matters let us please keep things in context.

Are you saying recreational stalkers shoot more than 50K deer a year?

Neil we all make mistakes! If you choose to pick up the stick that is your prerogative. Perhaps its just my sense of humour and manner of expressing myself. As I said earlier "I always thought forums such as AR were about the open discussion of points of interest by adults, not the engenderment of a mutual appreciation clique, or for the purposes of a social networking." I appreciate that given the passage of time and the limited number of active posters inevitably some are going to be known to others. They will then naturally adopt via a simple herding instinct a mutually supporting cadre. As any study of personal interaction/group dynamics would indicate.

If those of an overly sensitive nature have taken offence at anything I have posted, I am perfectly happy if they care to highlight where their feathers have been ruffled to explain myself further in private via the sites PM facility. I have no desire to see the site disrupted by endless petty squabbles. I am sure you feel the same...

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

quote:

Originally posted by GOONMYSON:

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

quote:

Originally posted by GOONMYSON:

Bert

Correct. Filling the freezer, communing with nature are secondary considerations or should be.

It depends upon your definition of stalking I suppose. A bit like Brian's definition of vermin.

So don't be shy, why not be bold and open the batting. What's your definition of stalking as a resident of our capital city you don't get that many herds of majestic reds or whistling sika stopping by for a nibble of some tasty shrubbery. Now if you were in Sheffield, Leeds or Glasgow you would at least have the resident urban Roe population.

Well my son,


My definition of stalking is the eradication of deer from all populated areas of the uk, with the shooting done by teams of highly trained marksmen, until the roads are safe for honest travelers once more.

Lacking, as I necessarily do, the sense of realism, management skills, reliability and, of course, controlability of the trained marksman, or internet fantasist, I however currently limit myself to enjoying my hobby.

A selfish cove; a stalking man, a bounder and a cad I am.

Regards,

GH

Bert

I shall treat your above post in the same manner in which it was posted.

I hope you continue to enjoy your hobby, recreation, spare time amusement.

Declaring already?

I hope you continue to enjoy your road safety campaign, loosing friends and alienating people.

Bert

I've never declared in my life! Never thought much of the game of cricket either! A bit to soft and soggy cucumber sandwichy for my liking.

quote:

Originally posted by londonhunter:
Certainly won't be one of the "in crowd"

Gosh! And there was me thinking I'd cracked it.

Having been made to feel so welcome and respected.

Fortunately I have the hide of a rhino and the heart of a lion. So I'll get over it soon.

As its always best to try and keep threads on topic, back to the subject matter.

quote:

My question is who or what really controls the deer numbers in the UK. The motor vehicle and poachers or we stalkers?

Good on yer Griff, self restraint is not one of your finer qualities that I remember ....

quote:

Originally posted by GOONMYSON:

Bert

I've never declared in my life! Never thought much of the game of cricket either! A bit to soft and soggy cucumber sandwichy for my liking.

Is it.

Is it really.

I see.

Cohannon,
I was going to reply to this troll, but then I realised his posts have a familiarity from another site where he has been removed...
Hopefully his time on this site will be short lived..



regards
griff

Neil

Its always the easiest and simplest option to raise the troll flag, when the questions and discussion get too difficult. Or you have dug a hole for yourself. I understand, really I do.

So.....................................

quote:
My question is who or what really controls the deer numbers in the UK. The motor vehicle and poachers or we stalkers?

quote:

Originally posted by GOONMYSON:
Neil

Its always the easiest and simplest option to raise the troll flag, when the questions and discussion get too difficult. Or you have dug a hole for yourself. I understand, really I do.

So.....................................

quote:
My question is who or what really controls the deer numbers in the UK. The motor vehicle and poachers or we stalkers?

Oh for god's sake stop writing and re-writing this post.


For the last time, nobody cares, sung to the tune of Beethovens fifth.

Live long and prosper.

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

quote:

Originally posted by GOONMYSON:
Neil

Its always the easiest and simplest option to raise the troll flag, when the questions and discussion get too difficult. Or you have dug a hole for yourself. I understand, really I do.

So.....................................

quote:
My question is who or what really controls the deer numbers in the UK. The motor vehicle and poachers or we stalkers?

Oh for god's sake stop writing and re-writing this post.


For the last time, nobody cares, sung to the tune of Beethovens fifth.

Live long and prosper.

Something of a sweeping statement, there Bert.

You might not care! But then as you have all ready admitted you're merely a hobby stalker.

I'm more of a Hanks Williams and Boxcar Willie fan.

Qapla' and shalom aleichem.

quote:

Originally posted by GOONMYSON:

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
"Amateur" stalkers could easily achieve the required cull if they were given access to the land..

While access to stalking is highly restricted, of course deer numbers will rise...

Sorry Pete I don't agree. How many of them would you want to give access to 500, 1000, 5000? They are not known as amateur stalkers for nowt.

Unworkable, unrealistic, unmanageable, unreliable, uncontrollable.

Whilst the DCS and DI are not the be all and end all they are at least accountable, credible, realistic and manageable.

I am accountable to the owner/s of any lease or land I shoot over, I believe that others feel I am credible, as many many landowners will agree, I have realistic expectations, & I am *managed" by the constraints placed upon me by others.