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Apologies for the equipment related post but it seems the best place. Having gained some experience on a number of nice customs I now want to build one myself that takes account of all I have learned. The action is bought - a ZG47, and I have a part inlet stock in the rough. The time old question now arrives - calibre. 90% of it's use will be on roe. It must be able to shoot a 100gr bullet that is not ridiculously shaped. It must be legal in France (ie non military)and legal for moose ie 6.5/140gr minimum. I don't like noise, am intolerant of recoil and generaly averse to 06 based cartridges. For me the choice is obvious a 6.5x57. What game (in what country) in Europe would I not be able to shoot legaly and in addition would there be situations where allthough legal it would be so far off the mark that I'd feel really stupid (ie could one take a 6.5x57 to a Monteria in Spain or a boar hunt in Germany) | ||
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Here in Spain the rules say no military cartridges. But I see Spanish hunting rifles for 308 all the time, so that musn't be the cops number one priority. I would go 7mm-08, or 6.5x57. If you can get over this whole 06 case problem, then 270, 280 or 7x64. I think there is also the 260 Remington and 284 Winchester. I don't beleive you want to go that short though. 6.5x57 or 6.5x55 would be best. | |||
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Hola 1894 For me the best compromise it's the 7x57 , ilegall in France as a military round , but the 284Rigby should be accepted , maybe not the best with 100 grains but OK with 123 KS bullets terrible on Roes and you can go up to 177 TUG excellent on Monterias , with a 6,5 bullet you are on light side for driven game in a Monteria , not in bullet weight as you can use 160 gr bullets but the diameter it's on the small side , think 6.5x55 it's forbidden in France , if you choose 6.5 0r 7 x 57 cut the chamber with a minimum of free bore as usually this is a problem with this calibers and accuracy it's not the best. Kokdyer in Spain it's forbiden to hunt with military ammo not military calibers OK a 7,62x51 with soft point and no auto rifle , not possible with FMJ bullets Saludos daniel | |||
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Daniel M, Do you know of any big gun shops in Andalucia? I have two about 50km away, but they are both really small. I understand there are some gunshops in Sevilla and Cordoba, but I didn't find them. Also when can I hunt ibex in the summer. I haven't found anyone with a decent deal that had any openings for this winter. regards amigo, Kokdyer | |||
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I had obviously received bad gouge on the 308 problem. I didn't realize that it was ok to use in Spain. My military orders overhere said don't bring rifles chambered for 8x57, 7x57, 223, or 308. Since I have been here I have seen all these calibers. So I mistakenly guessed that they were using those calibers and no-one was checking there bores. | |||
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Just a thought - heard that there is a move to increase the minimum on Moose from 6.5 to .30cal...Think that this pertains to Sweden - but not one hundred percent sure. Maybe one of our Swedish members would comment? I know that this would tempt me away from the gorgeous 6.5 - but remember - bigger bores can always be loaded down to a softer recoil level - difficult to do the opposite!  rgds Ian | |||
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The absolute all-around European cartridge is the 7x64, period. And yes, there are cartridges better suited towards either end of the game spectrum, but short of a .30-06, few European rounds are as versatile as the 7x64. Daniel, I think it is a ".275 Rigby" that is the alter ego of a 7x57. If hunting in France is on the cards, I'd stay away from all "versions" of military calibers - even with a different caliber marking. Just in case you should run into a Gendarme who happened to know about firearms (unlikely but possible). It would be a pity to loose your newly created custom rifle... - mike P.S. You like your 6.5x57R, so obviously the 6.5x57 is an option. It is better suited towards the lighter end of the spectrum, but not as versatile as the 7x64. Of course, you could also just get a .270 Win...  | |||
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Quote: Probably driven boar hunts in Germany. Invitations often state: "bring 7 mm or more". Considering all your requirements, my proposal would be 7x64 or 8x64S. My own choice for a light all-around rifle would be 7x57 (no plans for France etc.). Fuhrmann | |||
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8x68S | |||
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Nitro , 8x68 S it's THE caliber for all european game but don't meet the criteria of 1894 as it's the following : I don't like noise, am intolerant of recoil and generaly averse to 06 based cartridges. For me the choice is obvious a 6.5x57. I own both 7x64 and 7 x 57 and the last with low velocity have low recoil . Mike , the French make me crazy , I hunt over there for Roe , alway the same : don't come here with military rounds the 30'06 , 8x57 it's forbidden , but last year a friend from Catalonia apply to hunt with a Blaser R 93 in .308 and the French said OK  , another friend hunt for Chamois with a 6,5x55 and no problem , think the 284 Rigby should be OK as it's OK the 30-284 for the 7,5x55 SR , and the only modification the French do on the Schmit Rubin rifles it's stamp the new caliber in the barrel and it's legal .Kokdyer , no limitation on calibers to hunt in Spain , if you want to visit gunshops , go to Seville take the AVE train in less than two hours you enjoy Diana Viaji , la Armeria de Madrid , Armeria Espa�ola , Kettnar etc. be prepared to be in ones of the best gunshop in Spain , I'll ask my friends in the South where to look for gunshops , if you need a custom stock or shotgun the place to visit it's Eibar , a recomendation to read Spanish Best from Terry Wieland , living in Spain you must read the book and when you want to travel to Eibar call me to eat Kokotxas ( read the book and you'll understand  ) .Saludos Daniel | |||
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1894, Why one "all round" rifle? Are you getting rid of your other stuff and going to confine your self to just one rifle? The reason I ask is that one calibre is always going to be compromise of some sort. I like your idea of a 6.5x57mm, but in an ideal world, I think its a bit on the light side for moose and boar. Now should happen to have a 9.3x62mm in your cabinet as well, I think you have just about everything reasonably covered. It really has to be one rifle, I would seriously look at the 7x64mm as well...Load it down a little for 7x57mm ballistics and load it up with something nice and heavy for boar and moose.... Regards, Pete | |||
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Quote: The rules for moose in Sweden are regulating the bullet weight and the impact energy, not the calibre. There is no serious talk about higher limits, but there is a pending law agains lead in ammunition. There is difficulties finding a load for 6.5x55 with a nonlead bullet that is not too strong for the old Mauser 96 rifles, so for those not loading themselves or using old rifles there is a risk that they have to get another gun. In many shorter rifles, the factory ammo in 6.5x55 don't reach the limit even today - the data on the box is only valid with a rifle with a loooong barrel and most dog handlers for instance prefer short rifles. Would an Ackely Improved version of a military round be allowed in France? Regards, Martin | |||
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Quote: Yes, it is absolutely mind boggling, these rules are so incredibly arcane and stupid, that they leave you shaking your head in disbelief all the time. Let this be a warning to us all, once you have a meaningless gun law on your books, it is extremely unlikely you'll ever get rid of it. Look at our English friends, they have to rely on the mood of the local Police Constable to be able to buy another rifle. I mean, how arbitrary can the administration of a law become?? Makes you wonder who is next in line... ?  - mike | |||
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With all your requirements - mainly roe, but also wild boar and moose and hunting in France I would also vote for the 7x64 - maybe a little heavy & brutal for roe if you are not downloading it to 7x57 levels or getting a hard bullet, but as Mike mentioned the all-round cartridge for everything in Europe... (and legal in France) Best regards, Erik PS: Or get a 9.3x62 (just kidding) - but I'm currently shooting my roes with that and that is giving good effects and little wasted meat (but I'm also hunting in an area where there is red deer and quite a bit of wild boar | |||
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HI Dan, Daniel � think 6.5x55 it's forbidden in France����..� Yes illegal in France. Are legal 6.5-57, 6.5-65, 6.5-68. In the R department 6.5-52R, 6.5-57R, 6.5-65R. Why not the wonderful 6-62 Freres? I think one can stand the recoil of the 270 or 7-64. | |||
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1894, If Spanish monter�a is in the agenda, and we'll make sure it is , I would leave the 6,5x57 out.My choice would either be the 7x57 or the 7x64. Stepping up to 7mm implies 120gr, and not 100gr, bullet for roe. It is more than what you wanted but, being a handloader, you don't need to load the 7x64 to its full potential. It won�t be a huge step over the 7x57, even when shooting 154-177gr bullets, but a step nevertheless. In monter�a you'll be shooting over running game most of the time and more power allows for more margin in a badly placed shot. When put in front of a boar like the one in this picture which was taken this season by my son you'll feel better with the bigger cartridge.  Regards, Montero | |||
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Very interesting! I have too much time on my hands and a passion for another rifle. The all round thing is probably an attempt at justification. I have a 7lb single shot and some 9lb customs that I can't/won't change. I find 9lb a little heavy for physicaly demanding hunting and 7lb a little difficult to shoot in taxing conditions (I managed 2 one shot kills at 250 and 200m but it was hard - ask Montero how long I took to shoot the mouflon!) Hence my desire for an 8lb rifle that I felt should be an all rounder. Decisions, decisions...... | |||
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Quote: No, although the 6,5x57 is a very good caliber and it is legal to use it on all deer and boar in Germany, I would consider it as definitively too small for driven wild boar - there the absolute minimum is the 7x57 with a heavy (~11g) bullet... - the bigger the better! Best regards, Erik | |||
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7x64, 9,3x62 & 9,3x74R are my staples. I use the 7x64 on Roedeer mainly and might use it on Red deer and Wild Boar when stalking. However, for drive hunting (all running shots, not knowing wether your quarry will weight 25 kg or 150 kg) it is definitely underpowered, unless you insist on giving work to the bloodhounds. In those conditions, the 9,3's are king of the hill. | |||
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I'm with you Andre. I have a 338 Win, 8mm Remington Magnum, 9.3x62, and 9.3x74R of big game. A 30-06, 270, 280 Remington, and 25-06 for smaller stuff. I like my bigger stuff even on smaller game. | |||
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For me recoil it's different depending on stock design rater than caliber , last year I help a friend to install a scope on a Voere 9,3x62 and with low comb stock recoil was terrible , after five rounds I get up , it smashed my jawbone , then I fired my 9,3x64 with a straight stock , and feel like a 270 W , my friend also test my 9,3 and can't believe the difference , then he trade the 9,3 for a Winchester super grade in .338 and he is in love with the recoil of the rifle . Daniel | |||
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1894, no one has mentioned the 6.5-284! this seems to be the new kid on the block, ammo available from lapua and norma, this cartridge is now being widely used in the 1000yds match. With superior ballistics to any 6.5mm this is in a class of its own!! Griff p.s even better than my 25-06 | |||
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hi deerdogs 7x64 is the most popular calibre in france ammo can be bought from any shop it is more than adequate for boar you may not be able to get brass HEADSTAMPED 275 RIGBY for 7x57 if you are going to shoot a lot of driven boar 9.3 is the way to go as this calibre will leave a good blood trail i have used one recently in france a lovely chapuis after a perfectly placed shot on a running boar at app 35 metres it still managed to run app 70 metres funny stuff adrenalin regards steve | |||
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Let me get this right I can't take my .308 to France to hunt wild boar? | |||
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Quote: Not legally, no. Nor could you bring your .30-06, 7x57, 8x57IS or a bunch of other military cartridges. But you could bring your .300 Win Mag, .300 Wby, 9.3x64, 9.3x62 or a .375 H&H. Go figure! - mike | |||
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My guess is the 303 British would also be included in the banned list. Does anyone know where the cut-off is for older military rounds? E.g. 30-40 Krag, 45-70 etc? Are they permanently banned from normal use in France? | |||
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StuC Not connected with France but I read where a British company was in trouble for exporting military equipment without the appropriate licence or permits. They were selling and sending reloading dies for the .577/.450 round overseas. Now that is some modern military equipment that Iran or North Korea is just waiting to get hold of to destroy the Western Dogs of War. BUT interesting I did see some Martini-Henrys handed in from rebels in the Solomon Islands, along with assorted shotguns and homemade blunderbusses. | |||
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Nitro, 577/450 was the other round I was thinking of, but I can never remember which way round the numbers go so didn't want to write it down  . Thanks for the interesting anecdote. | |||
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Hi Regarding the moose caliber requirements in Sweden. It is abolutly true what Marterius wrote above. I just want to add the following. Even with lead bullets it is important to have a fast rifling twist 1-9" or better 1-8" to be able to stabilize the long 10,1 gram bullets. The reason for the 10,1 gram bullets is that class one ammo (moose legal)call for 2000 kj /100m OR 2700 kj /100m if the bullet weights less than 10,1 grams but more than the minimum 9 grams. When the lead ban takes effect for bullets, it is no longer possible to fire 10,1 gram bullets from a 6,5 rifle. due to the length of the lead free bullets. It is possible to fire a 140 gr BX with E100 over 2700 kj in a 6,5 rifle, but you need a case bigger than a 6,5 x 55 AND a fast rifling twist to stabilize the long lead free bullet. This is the reason many (me included)se the 6,5 as "dead" as a moose rifle in Sweden. It is possible to make it (the 6,5�s )work, but why bother when there are so many alternatives Br// | |||
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Dear Stu, mho, Vulpes vulpes, The use of any military arm, part of arm or ammo is forbidden in France. Even old calibres are concerned. Every day we are praying that no country decides to use 7-64, 9.3-62, 300 Win��as military ammo.  There is little risk your being checked. Nonetheless should an hunting accident happen, the shooter, his neighbours and the victim will be thoroughly checked and crap may hit the fan. IMHO the 7-64 is the all-rounder calibre in Europe if the aim is to flatten game from marmot to stag. | |||
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With the 7X64 Brenneke you are ready for everything and it�s not a military caliber! I shot the 7X64 in my Mannlicher Sch�nauer. Hauke | |||
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Quote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the .300 Win Mag used in some military sniper rifles? The French authorities must've overlooked this fact - should I send them an e-mail as a reminder..? Just kidding - Joyeux Noel!  -- Mats | |||
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I strongly recommend the 270 Win. as a 90% roe deer/10% boar caliber. The flat trajectory of the 270 is unbeatable when your roe is standing in the middle of a wheat field 250 yards away and you see only his neck and head-preferred habitat of older bucks. As for boar, using 150 grain deep penetrating bonded core or even solid cooper bullets the 270 is more than enough gun. I own a 30-06, 7x64, 270, 300 win mag. The 270 has got the mildest recoil and not nearly as noisy as the 7x64. I am from Europe and hunted both species (occasionaly still do).To avoid barrowing rifles when I am there I will station my 270 in Europe.I am convinced if I had a 270 back in the old days I would have missed a lot fewer game. | |||
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VG, I will second your reccomendation of the 270... its flat trajectory, mild recoil and ability to use bullets from 110 to 160 grains make it a wonderful "all-rounder". Here in Montana I know many who use it for everything from coyotes and antelope to elk (our elk are larger than the European Red Stag) with great success... if limited to "just" a 270 I'd never feel under or over-gunned this side of the whale pasture... I'm sure the same could be said of the 7x64. It's safer and more sane to load a big cartridge "down" than to load a small cartridge "up." | |||
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I am not a 270 for elk guy. A Scottish hill stag weighs about 250 pounds, a Spanish stag about 400, and the biggest stags in Europe weigh 550-650. About the size of a elk calf, elk cow, and "raghorn" bull elk. A royal Rocky Mountain bull elk will weigh 850-1000 (usually closer to 850 though), and a royal Roosevelt or Manatoba bull will weigh another 200 pounds more. The 270 on big bull elk doesn't have a whole lot of room for error. The Russians are using the 9.3x64 as a sniper rifle in one of the Druganovs. French officals might add that to there hate list. | |||
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Dear Pete, Will You please censor these two sneak Mats and Kokdyer. In fact snipers are another breed. The army is using FRF 2 in 308 NATO and PGM 50 Police is using what they want, the best unit, the RAID, is using Blaser R93 Tactical in 308. Speaking of the 270, I can see any interesting differences between the 270 and 7-64. IMHO, 7-64 is the European 270. | |||
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Actually a 7x64 is a Euro 280 Remington. There is .07 between the 277 bullets and the 284 bullets, not enough to worry about. Both are too small for any elk, elch, or moose I am going to be shooting at. | |||
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Quote: kokdyer 280 rem is American version of 7X64 Brenneke. Brenneke was introduced in 1917 or so Cheers / JOHAN | ||
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Quote: Nonsense... | |||
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quote: .223 (5.56 NATO) is forbidden in Spain for civilian use in any type of weapon. .308 (7,62 NATO) is allowed but not in semiauto, only bolt, pump or single shot. Odd that my 338 lapua magnum doesn't seem to be military  | |||
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