I just had my Firearm Certificate returned after a variation to add another barrel to my Sauer. I requested in addition that fox be added to the 308 and 7x64 while stalking. On close inspection the authorising authority has also added it to my 375 H+H God Bless Em.This is quite interesting as I had quite a long discussion with them when they said the 7mm was too powerful in the Home Office Guidelines.

the police have some strange ideas when it comes to calibre suitability and safety!
a friend of mine had his license returned with his .222 listed for deer stalking on his land here in Northern Ireland, even though it"s not a deer legal calibre!
i"ve heard of land being turned down for .308, but passed for .270 on the grounds that .308 is "bigger" than .270.
i heard of a guy who after waiting a year for his FAC variation to change from a .22 lr to a .22 magnum, was told he could"nt do it as a "one on, one off", as .22 magnum is centre fire!
i asked once what the criteria was for a police officer to be selected as a firearm enquiry officer. apparently there is none!
until they come out and admit that they"re going to ban shooting altogether, we"ll just have to grin and bear it.
good shooting

I love England, I have never seen a prettier and neater looking place in my life, English countryside is just quant and cute looking.

However, you couldn't get me to plant roots there if I was married to Rachel Weiss, and had 20 top English models as mistresses.

Mark,

Glad to hear your bit of luck, it can go both ways then!

Waiting for my FAC renewal to come back, always had a 7mm on it for fox and deer, so will be interested in the outcome...

Have also added some other calibres on and some other reasons for use, just out of interest, what is the biggest permitted centrefire FAC holders have to lawfully shoot corvids with?

I would consider a flat shooting 6mm (243 Winchester or 6mm Remington) the obvious ideal calibers for fox. Being less sensitive to wind deflection than the high-power .22s while more or less as flat shooting and still very easy on the shoulder.

Regards

quote:

Originally posted by D99:
I love England, I have never seen a prettier and neater looking place in my life, English countryside is just quant and cute looking.

However, you couldn't get me to plant roots there if I was married to Rachel Weiss, and had 20 top English models as mistresses.

For that kind of deal, I think I could work something out.

Hi
I love my Brno FOX 222rem and hair trigger loaded with sako 55 gr @ 1000 M/S is absolutly a best foxslayer i,ve ever seen.
regards
Yazid ebn elhisham sahrawi

nightwalker, our local FLO said that they would only grant 17cals for small vermin,but said anyone who has vermin destruction on their ticket for whatever calibre could use that! bit weird but thats the police for you. often shoot them with 6ppc and 260 rem

D99,

Are not some Counties in the US shotgun only for hunting deer? You have seasons which limit you to bows or black powder only?

Every country has its quirks, and a lot of our firearms laws are pretty stupid, but I kind of like being able to hunt deer 365 days a year with out having to worry about tags ect!

Regards,

Pete

i"ll second that!
i lived in Canada (New Brunswick)for a while, and i could only shoot one deer a year. after that you can"t even carry a rifle bigger than .23.(or shotgun shells bigger than BB) Beatiful country, great place, but apart from their wide open spaces and Crown Land, i"m just as well off here. with a little effort, i could shoot deer in the UK any month of the year.
good shooting

Hi Chaps.

Spoke to my local Plod recently when l renewed my ticket, and he said that with the pending merger of the Cumbrian force with one of the bordering outfits we may be in for a bit of trouble. He says that we may well be linked to the Lancs' force in which case it seems they don't like anyone using anything bigger then one of the .22 centres' for fox. Personally l can't see the problem with using any large round so long as you take all the usual precautions before you pull the trigger, if it comes to it then maybe some people (if not already happening) will adopt the Yankee trick of shoot, shovel n' shut up about it.
Dave.
....

quote:

Ideal Calibre for Fox?

1. .17 Remington
2. .222 Remington

strange how different forces allow certain calibre`s fer fox, north yorks im allowed 308 both day and night but i allways use 243,

quote:

... just out of interest, what is the biggest permitted centrefire FAC holders have to lawfully shoot corvids with?

I am omly allowed to use my .22 rimfire for crows... yet I can use my 375H&H for muntjac.

Hmmm.

I flattened a Fox during a Moose hunt some years ago with my .404 Jeffery, 400grains Woodleighs -A Superb Fox rifle

The Fox died...

Husky

makes you wonder doesn't it, and proves they don't have a clue,,
a bloke i know got turned down for a 7.62x51 NATO, but they allowed him a 308 win..
I dropped more than a few foxes with my 450marlin mind you..
Pete

quote:

I flattened a Fox during a Moose hunt some years ago with my .404 Jeffery, 400grains Woodleighs -A Superb Fox rifle thumb

The Fox died...

now are you sure

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
D99,

Are not some Counties in the US shotgun only for hunting deer? You have seasons which limit you to bows or black powder only?

Every country has its quirks, and a lot of our firearms laws are pretty stupid, but I kind of like being able to hunt deer 365 days a year with out having to worry about tags ect!

Regards,

Pete

Pete, your right about that. I am from Wyoming, Alaska, Montana, New Mexico, Washignton, California, Nevada, and Arizona. (The damn military and my parents, are to blame).

In the west we have very little of this bullshit.

I have 22250 2506 and had 7mm rem mag. on the 22250 2506 they are down as deer fox and vermin and the 7mm mag for fox and deer, i sold the 7mm rem mag and did not aply for the condition within 14 daysand that means i have lost it i think, i am up for renewal next year and am expecting to lose the 2506 for vermin and probably fox. the home office guidance was not voted on was it so how are they useing it like it is law, i want another 7mm mag but dont know if i am advised to aply on renewal or not may be just causeing myself more trouble if i do. any views

we must be very lucky here in south west Scotland, my ticket just says "lawful shooting of vermin,ground game,fox,deer and the shooting of vermin with the management of any estate, other wildlife".

regards

griff

Yes my certificate reads the same but for 7 mm rem mag fox and deer etc but no vermin, the problems start when the police get your ticket for variation renewal etc and start changeing conditions around for no reason, than a guideance paper that is just that not a law.

Yep our local FLA said that they wouldn't grant my .330 win mag if i put down for fox on the conditions. Previously been allowed to use .243 .308 7x57 and of course 6mm ppc. Th e lady said she didn't want me using it on poor little foxes! Now I don't really want to use it on foxes but I felt like arguing the point with her that all of them would rip a fox from elbow to ar5ewhole and the fact that no bullet has a conscience..... I thought it would be lost on her

Proud to be British

Zaitsev,

I guess that your lass feels that a .308 dead fox is not quite as bad off as a dead .338 fox. Let’s ask the fox what it thinks will give him a better day...

My experiences with fox are that the .17 and .22 rimfires (including magnum versions) just doesn't have the grunt to do a good job, even up close.

I've seen very erratic bullet performance with the .17 centerfires. Up close they explode nicely and at the longer distances (past 250m) they either explode or act like full jacketed bullets making small needle holes that allow the fox to take a few hits before going down. I've also seen the worst wind drift ever with .17's at reasonable distances. Originally I thought that God invented the .17 to manage his fox as far as the eye could see, now I think that he only wanted us to use that calibre to manage out to around 200-250m with it.

For close in hunting I wouldn’t use anything smaller than the .22 Hornet or larger than a .222/.223 class cartridge. For open hunting, I would start with the .222/.223 class and go up to the .243 class. That is if you want to save the pelt, if not try a .264 Win Mag loaded to 3900 fps with the old 80 grain Speer… Makes haggis and nice hot blood pudding for you…

I am happy to report that here in the Highlands they have the same sensible approach to matters as in the South West of Scotland. I have the same wording as Griff on my certificate. I cannot understand the why all these restrictions are put onto certificates, other than the fact that usually the FLO's are not shooters/stalkers and do not really understand. When you have ladies tellng you that they do not want poor little foxes killed with those nasty big guns, or people cannot have 7.62 but a .308 is OK, it is a bit like having a driving examiner who can't drive

John

I thought we had bad laws regarding hunting here in Iceland hehe.

Its basically two rules you must follow here:
1. 6mm-100gr bullet minimum for Reindeer hunting:
2.Bigger than 8mm is banned unless you can prove you have gone twice abroad for big game hunting then you can apply for special lisence for those BIG cannons:

you can go hunting seals with ,22 short and nobody can say anithing how stupid it may be...

FAC update.

Well following my visit from FLO, he is happy to leave 7mm-08 for fox, but was pritty sure I wouldn't have wording on it for the lawfull shooting of goats or boar. I suggested vermin or pest control would cover this, but he was sure that feral goats and boar are not vermin, therefore cannot shoot them! Also touched on shooting feral cats, again I suggested vermin or pest control would cover this, but his interpretation was that in law it doesn't say that you can destroy feral cats with a rifle.

Anybody have some help on this matter?

The FLO in question was a very helpful person but was just speculating on what his superior would say when he queries my question.

Regards...

quote:

Originally posted by Dave2431:
Hi Chaps.

Spoke to my local Plod recently when l renewed my ticket, and he said that with the pending merger of the Cumbrian force with one of the bordering outfits we may be in for a bit of trouble. He says that we may well be linked to the Lancs' force in which case it seems they don't like anyone using anything bigger then one of the .22 centres' for fox. Personally l can't see the problem with using any large round so long as you take all the usual precautions before you pull the trigger, if it comes to it then maybe some people (if not already happening) will adopt the Yankee trick of shoot, shovel n' shut up about it.
Dave.
....

It may already be happening, but try justifying having a large cal (.257 - .30) to the "plod" when you are stopped with a lamp at night especially if said "plod" knows his rifles.

As an aside, I know from experience Lancs permit larger than .224 on ticket for Fox if you can justify the need - so another urban myth destroyed.

Just hope that it isn't me that stops you matey

Tee Hee

Ok Andy I may be getting the wrong signals here so please correct me if a point or two is 'off target'. Why would you need to justify having a 'large cal' (everything is relative and is this an official designation or is it guidance) if it was on your ticket with the variation for fox. In point of fact if there were no reasons for the licence holder in question to be stopped(other than a report from a member of the public who had seen a lamp) it is hard to see what valid grounds an officer could question or detain said licence holder on. What difference would an officer who knew his rifles make to this scenario. It does not take a genius to check action nos, calibre designations, calibres of rifles, conditions of the certificate and lawful authority to be on the land on which shooting is taking place etc.
In addition it is good to know that Lancs permit (or should we read that as interpret the law) to allow shooters to use calibres larger than .224 for fox.
And as one v famous detective used to say 'just one more thing' Why do you hope that it isn't you that stops the member to whose post you replied?
I look forward with interest to your replies, thoughts or comments on any or all of the above.
All the best

Zaitsev.

Which is the most suitable caliber for fox? the one you happen to have in your hands when you see the fox.
I would say that during day light and caliber from 17HMR to 50BMG should be suitable, as a safe shot is a safe shot, a back stop is a back stop.
At night with a lamp, the situation becomes a little more complicated, you can't see all the ricochet causing stuff that might be about, for my own piece of mind i'd opt for a 22 centre fire using frangible bullets, the if you happen to get a ricochet, chances are that the bullet will have fragmented.
I don't need a cop or a home office to tell me when its safe to shoot or what to shoot with, un fortunately there are idiots in all walks of life and the authorities take it upon them selves to try and legislate against every eventuality.
I know a guy who was granted 308win for deer, but oh no, he couldn't have 7.62x51 Nato, take some bodys head of that would.
Pete

A 308 will kill a fox, but with biggame bullets, it's not ideal. Will mess it up.

My fox

Johan

have 22250 2506 and had 7mm rem mag. on the 22250 2506 they are down as deer fox and vermin and the 7mm mag for fox and deer my cert is up next year, the guidelines are just that a guide. NOTHING voted on in the house that i am aware of. if they change what is on your ticket they have broken the law of the land you need good reason to have a large cal for fox if you stand your ground you should keep the conditions you had in the first place. it is a problem this fox and vermin buisnes with the police over here i dont understand where they get mixed up with the guideance and the good reason !!!!and i got no joy off BASC when i asked for help i got a very rude guy who whould not even wait to get the whole story when i tried to help a mate out with his 243, so i guess we are on our own. never mind all this minimal cal mentality. If the cal of the rifle makes it a safe shot it was not a safe shot in the first place.

I was going to go off on a rant about how l voted in a fool that employs knee jerks who are at liberty to misinterpret the law for their convenience. But before l start shouting "veve la republic" and "start the bloody revolution" l'll stop it (it's 04.50 in the morning and it's best not to jab me 'bout now)

I have to look at it this way... When in the countryside, we're in one of the safest countries on the planet. And it's that way because those in it tend to be some of the most level headed maniacs l've ever had the pleasure to meet. We ask for what we think we can have, and they tell us what they're going to let us play with and if it's all we want or need then we're happy.

Gentlemen. May l wish you all well in your endevours on this subject. And just to remember there's more than enough foxes to go round, whatever calibre you swat them with.

Andy. By all means come play, you'll find my papers are always in order. Welcome to Cumbria.


Regards.

Dave.
....

Reading all this has made me really glad about my FLO, I only got my FAC because of my Brocock air rifles and pistols when they were banned and he recommeneded "in passing" that perhaps I should join a club and request 3 or 4 other firearms incase I want anything else in the future?? on the advise of other club members,I picked 8, thinking I might get 4 and got all 8!! moderated .22 (on the grounds I want save my hearing??)
couple of muzzle loaders with a spare cylinder for each, couple of long barrelled hand guns, the list goes on.
His only concern was that I had space to store them.
Just waiting for a call back to see if I can wangle getting my .44 magnum single shot pistol changed to vermin and fox as well as target??
But what I really want is UK legal pistol for deer, may be a .308 Competitor or Encore.
Just to be different.

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by zaitsev:
Ok Andy I may be getting the wrong signals here so please correct me if a point or two is 'off target'. Why would you need to justify having a 'large cal' (everything is relative and is this an official designation or is it guidance) if it was on your ticket with the variation for fox. In point of fact if there were no reasons for the licence holder in question to be stopped(other than a report from a member of the public who had seen a lamp) it is hard to see what valid grounds an officer could question or detain said licence holder on. What difference would an officer who knew his rifles make to this scenario. It does not take a genius to check action nos, calibre designations, calibres of rifles, conditions of the certificate and lawful authority to be on the land on which shooting is taking place etc.
In addition it is good to know that Lancs permit (or should we read that as interpret the law) to allow shooters to use calibres larger than .224 for fox.
And as one v famous detective used to say 'just one more thing' Why do you hope that it isn't you that stops the member to whose post you replied?
I look forward with interest to your replies, thoughts or comments on any or all of the above.
All the best

Zaitsev.

I appear to have caused a little upset with my post, it wasn't mean't to cause offence, as I'm sure the word "plod" wasn't mean't to cause offence either

I assumed (wrongly) that Dave was using his rifle on fox, without the authority to do so, (either for fox or for fox whilst deer stalking) if you follow?

Reason for my post:

We have, in the area I work, a problem with "people" using 22 centerfires on Reds/Fallow and causing horrendous injuries and in some cases lingering death. The likely hood that a person in a vehicle is to be stopped in these areas at night is high - and let's not forget that the Police can stop anyone in a vehicle and require them to produce driving licence, insurance and MOT. If there are any suspicious circumstances, then the vehicle / occupants may be looked at in more detail - hence my post.

If that "someone" was stopped with a lamp and had a gunslip on board, I would be duty bound to check (ask) their reasons to be out and if necessary their certification.

If their certificate stated that the (for sake of argument) .308 they had in the vehicle was issued for deer ONLY, then surely you can see where I am coming from - is this person poaching / lamping deer or out for some other reason?

Dave2431, sorry if you took this the wrong way, it wasn't intended to cause offence, glad you didn't flame me.

Oh, and I do aggree, anything from .224 upwards will do for fox - there are however home office guidelines on suitiable calibres though, which, have to be followed by the FEO's.

If you reside in a windy area and shoot over "extended" ranges, then you may have a strong case to have a larger cal granted for fox

I too, will enjoy and welcome becoming part of Cumbria.

Hope this clears up the issue.

The home office guidance is as i have said before a guideance not a law you get what you can get by obeying the law the police firearms officers have to do the same thats what law abideing people do so explain what you want give a good reason and get your cal, job done. The police obey the law there is no max cal in law yet to my knowledge.

Andy,

The problem with the guidlines is thatthey are fundamentally flawed in consistancy and logic.

A freind was told to take a .22LR then come back a year later when he had some experience and apply for a centrefire. the .22LR isprobably the most riccochet prone round available and subsequently needs more care than ever when shooting it on even frosty ground. that is something that the vast majority of FLO's won't even consider.

The problem with guidelines is they allow interpretation and in the hands of people that don't understand the various calibres something like a 375 H+H is deemd and Elephant gun.... No negotiation.

Now, that is not what the law intends.

FB

FB you are correct, the problem with the Home Office Guidelines is that they are open to interpretation by FEO's and their supervisors and individual constabularies who may not have a fundamental understanding of rifles / calibres.

It may have been easier and far simpler to understand if the Home Office allowed any centerfire for Fox. Any centerfire developing 1700ft lbs for deer, but hey, we don't make the rules.

At the present time each application for each cal is looked at on its own merit. If you wanted a larger cal than the Home Office recommends for Fox and you have good reason (extended range, very windy area etc) that may be granted - but it is dependant on the constabulary that person resides in to decide.

Not the best method perhaps, but one we have to abide with at the present time.

Shooting in the uk as got way past a joke, we have it from all corners. the police the goverment the BASC. the police do as the goverment say and love it. the BASC just do what they want. Dreaming up training and useing our money to plan it and then we pay to do it.talk about a licence to print money. then the vfees go up and they send out begging letters too. and the worst part about it is i dont think we can stop the bleeding its to late. it wants to be no training no jobs for the boys and no knighthood for j swift. ... Just no gun law changes pure and simple never mind the training you cant hunt without a gun. and dont mention the training is needed to keep up with modern thinking, that was planted by BASC and has made them a lot of money to pay people they employ to dream up training

Stag Wolf,

There are some good an knowledgable people in BASC and some of the initiatives are great like the Aaran Stalking project. But....

Personally I have ceased my membership to the organisation for the last 2-3 years and also the affiliated wilfowling club. The breaking point for me was them condemning the Pigeon shooting day of the NGO.

As an organisation they are too willing to make kneejerk reactions and "make the difficult decisions" they feel are necessary in these time. All in the name of defending our sport. THeir recent announcement that they support a total ban on cage rearing systems for game birds is just another indication of their wanting to go it alone.

Two things spring to mind. They are doing exactly the same thing time and again that we are all critisizing Labour Gov't for, (ie: not listening to the members/voters and backing initiatives like training to perpetuate their own jobs and increase their own revenue)

Secondly and saddest of all is that with this kind of division within shooting we'll all be wandering where our sport has gone i years to come.

I don't mean to be a doom and gloom merchant, but hunting has fallen in some way but shooting won't have so many loopholes to wriggle out of.

Rgds,
FB

F/B i agree with you on the above counts. I share your wories about Our shooting future over here, We are just not united like we used to be in this country. just read the posts on here from uk shooters. and then look at say the kiwis and ausies on there they still laugh