quote:

Originally posted by Old blue eyes:
Nah! This is a far better clip of a collective bunch of...................... well you know what I'm referring to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ature=response_watch

Like I said it all depends upon what side of the debate your view them from or in this case camera .

Did you hear that mate?

That was the sound of something going over your head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ThAQ&feature=related

There was me thinking it was only you breaking wind.

It certainly smelt the same.

Anything meaningful to add to the thread topic or have you just stopped by to flap your gums?

If its the former I'll stick around, if its the latter. I'll pass thanks. I find the empty sucking sound does little to raise my interest levels.

quote:

Originally posted by Old blue eyes:
There was me thinking it was only you breaking wind.

It certainly smelt the same.

Anything meaningful to add to the thread topic or have you just stopped by to flap your gums?

If its the former I'll stick around, if its the latter. I'll pass thanks. I find the empty sucking sound does little to raise my interest levels.

What the hell was that odor?

I'd better clean the place up I guess.



Don

quote:

Originally posted by DRG:
What the hell was that odor?

I'd better clean the place up I guess.



Don

don

yes, please do

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by DRG:
What the hell was that odor?

I'd better clean the place up I guess.



Don

Old blue eyes does not have the rights to view private messages.

damn you are really fast at this sweeping thing

best

peter

Thanks Don...The air smells sweeter already!

Serious question?

As posted earlier regarding Sweden.

If you shoot a doe first here you are not likely to be welcome back.....

But of course things can be different abroad.

regards.

quote:

Originally posted by trans-pond:
The UK population is exploding. Wise up hunters and deer managers the niceties and luxuries of preserving animals need compromising.
We need too shoot a lot more deer in UK.
No use extending the doe season when some baulk at the idea of killing does with formed foetii.
Shoot the doe first and you get the best chance at all three (thats all you need to know) but you need too plan it and not procrastinate over the ethics.
If we cant control the deer then night shooting and year round open season will be along too help.
Foresters and farmers and RTA's will demand it.

That's pretty much what I think BUT I think people need to understand the consequences of their decisions before they take them.

I also think that actual experience can help. By Feb I am seeing single fallow fawns with fat and in good condition and I see fawns of roe does that I have orphaned turn into perfectly acceptable bucks.

Good evening gentlemen may I introduce myself as I have just today joined the forum.

I am Stuart R… one of Ronnie Roses Rangers in the early 80s of which there were 9 of us who assisted Ronnie Rose snr in deer control and management.


This posting and poll by Griff on here is a direct confrontation between he and myself in relation to a disagreement between us on Roe Deer control and management just so that you are all aware, I am also a Global Moderator on www.Deertalking.com where this dispute is taking place.

Now I should point out I am not one who accepts fools gladly and the suggestion by Griff directly flies in the face of my Mentor Ronnie Rose Senior.


I shall be quite explicit of what practices are or were put into operation by the rangers working under direct instruction and supervision by Ronnie himself.
Any individual reading this account should do well to adopt those practices in my view but I would say that wouldn’t I with being taught by a man who is considered a expert world wide in roe deer control and forest designation and control.



Roe Deer are unique in their breeding program as most of those stalkers on here are or should be aware, for those who are not familiar with the breeding cycle of roe I will try to give a short synopsis and for those that are familiar please excuse the following as I do not wish for you to suck eggs,

First and foremost the Roe deer becomes pregnant in late July early August during the rut, The foetuses do not grow at this stage but becomes suspended and remains dormant in a state of suspended implantation, then this is were this animal is unique as no other deer does this, Dependant on environmental issues relating to food in the immediate environment and pending weather conditions this animal is capable of aborting or absorbing the foetus before implantation is carried out So as you can see a very special animal indeed as far as I am aware badgers are the only other British Mammal to carry out this unusual natural occurrence, this accounts sometimes when we see a Doe running with one kid which is usually of the female sex and rarely male sex, Triplets do happen but again exceptionally rare.

The control of any deer in proliferation lies with mainly the females of the species and more so with Roe Deer due to its unique method of breeding.
Other issues have also to be considered as many daughter does in past seasons revolve around a matriatic female that controls her off spring revolving around a hub from many seasons breeding in previous years but I will not broach that issue here at this stage as such is complex and will cloud the issue to those who are unaware of the family structure of the species.



Control is made as follows In November until the end of December
The large Doe is shot first whereas the kid or kids will at al times stand whilst second and third shot is placed,(This is a normal trait of Roe Deer Kids but not other juvenilles of other species of deer) taking out both sexes this is done as lactation is present in the doe usually until late December where lactation ceases or such is observed through previous does shot which gives a clear indication what state of lactation the does are in that particular area.

From Late December and further months select culling takes place were the buck kid is usually left as normally by that time,lactation has ceased but monitored through previous does shot if its humane and safe for the buck kid to be left to fend for itself as by this time as the mother doe has passed on her survival skills to the kid.

As you can see in effect damage to forestry is controlled in a proficient way as the big doe is taken she is pregnant with kids from the July Rut and the other two kids give a controlled head count of 5 from the loop all carried out humanely and scientifically creating a correct a proper manner in roe control.

I hope that my post clears up a few ambiguities in respect to Roe Deer Control in respect to the Does.
On other species of deer I would agree with the census of the poll it is correct and proper to shoot the calfs or fawns first unfortunately i disagree with Griff in respect to Roe Deer management and control
Thanks
Stuart R………

your first line leaves us somewhat baffled as Mannlicher_stu has been a member since Jan 09.

For those that don't know this thread started over MS posting a picture in Sept? of a head shot doe and a kid. Critisism was levelled at the photo being posted on an open forum and the fact the the adult doe was shot first..

MS quite clearly states that if you shoot the adult roe doe, (and lets be clear here so we dont confuse this with any other species of deer)the kids "WILL AT ALL TIMES STAND"with out fail, allowing you to shoot them.
I will let others comment on that sweeping statement.

Could I possibly call on your expertise to give comment on this scenario:
You shoot an adult doe on the edge of a plantation with 3 kids,it runs into the trees after being shot and you can't find it,you need to use the dog..
RESULT:3 orphans! that may not survivethe winter.
The post below is from another site:deertalking.com

Re: Roe does or kid first?
Reply #13 - Yesterday at 16:03 May i add to this post .I have been out with one of the stalkers who is employed on Eskdale moor. His name is Sean and is in charge while Ronnie rose is doing his Deer Commission work. I shot a young doe that was with its mother last winter he stated to me on that day that the fawn was to young to fend for its self and this meant that there was no choice but to shoot it first.

Obviously Sean is working to a remit set by R.Rose so
Mannlicher_ Stu is this guy a liar?

Best practice advocates dependants first, but you seem unable to accept that!
May I also point out that R.Rose snr was a contributor to best practice.

regards
griff

I would not take the shot on a doe in the first instance irrespective of how many kids it had to foot 3 though would be an a very unusual occurrence as your question relates to the edge bordering a plantation Griff, as you could not be certain of a backstop or that it was safe to do so , so in respect of myself that situation would not apply.
As regards previous posting as Mannlicher Stu I confirm this to be my first post as far as I am aware I have made no other and registered the other evening , the existence of this forum has only come to my notice through your referral you also claim that I am banned on here, and you further comment that says it all which isnt true not as of yet anyhow, but know doubt from comments made on DT that looks to be imminent not as if I am bothered either I felt it prudent to at least put the facts forward as they stand, Your personal attack I consider to be infra dig, and I have no intention of lowering my interlect in entering into a gutter related battle with your opinions or questions, your the so called expert why do you require my expertise and kindly refrain from trying to shove something down my throat over on DT when I know it to be wrong if members of this forum choose to take and put into practice the advice offered by yourself then its up to them,Regarding your method of operandi do as you wish as likewise I will.
By the way thanks for the Welcome gentlemen
Regards
Stuart R

Busted spell check too?

MS,
why should we welcome you!
You have been on this site before!

You didn't answer a single question,why is that Stu..

regards
griff

Can you not read Griff
I thought I said I was not prepared to get into a gutter battle in relation to a question and answer situation, I repeat it again and say it slowly just so you can take in my reply

O'h I can read Stu, my reading is better than your memory! The truth always comes back and bites you in the arse doesn't it Stu.
Remember this: http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/7451052001/p/2

Nearly 12 months ago!
and your telling us your a new member, now either the site is lying to us all, or!



regards
griff

Your obviously hell bent Griff in bringing this to gutter level , by choice I have no intention of joining you there.

MS or is it BS?,

Well if Ronnie Rose taught you to orphan Roe Kids in Nov then shame on him, he ought to know better.

So much for working with Nature!

quote:

From Late December and further months select culling takes place were the buck kid is usually left as normally by that time,lactation has ceased but monitored through previous does shot if its humane and safe for the buck kid to be left to fend for itself as by this time as the mother doe has passed on her survival skills to the kid.

quote:

Reply

No not November if you read my post it refers to cease of lactation in previous shot Does in the month of December and onwards

did the smell just come back.

anybody have contact info for this r. rose.

best

peter

Anyone who shoots an adult roe doe before Winter is finished runs the risk of orphaning a kid that may in the long term not survive the winter period on its own or if it does will never reach its full potential..

It is a well known documented fact that the adult roe doe teaches its offspring the feeding patterns throughout the winter, and without that knowledge they struggle to survive..

If you could guarrantee that the kids would stand when you have shot the adult doe as MS suggests, then there would be an argument for shooting the adult first.But as we know there are no guarrantees when it comes to dealing with wild animals.
There is a moral and ethical issue here, but at the end of the day its your decision..

regards
griff

There is only one thing absolute certain in this life and that we are all going to die Griff

Other issues in life run a risk of not going to plan but taking into account and all possible steps to minimise those risks in a controlled way as was put into practice at Eskdalemuir by the wildlife management team , issues were adjusted pending environmental condition as it became known but the basic principals still remained were the Large Doe was taken first then followed by the respective kids .

In the case of Roe.

My vote was for young before mother at this time of year.


Some may take the doe first, and I know people who do, but one cannot guarantee that the kids will stand, or run a while and stand giving enough time for a second or third shot (if there are two kids)

I have to say that it is likely they will return to look for mum later in the day (assuming you have the time and patience to wait)


However,

Reds

I would look for the lead hind and drop that first, allowing the remaining animals to be uncertain of direction of escape long enough to take further animals should they be presented.

A decision that works for me on the bits of ground I manage.

Double posted

quote:

I am Stuart R… one of Ronnie Roses Rangers in the early 80s of which there were 9 of us who assisted Ronnie Rose snr in deer control and management.

Control is made as follows In November until the end of December
The large Doe is shot first whereas the kid or kids will at al times stand whilst second and third shot is placed,(This is a normal trait of Roe Deer Kids but not other juvenilles of other species of deer) taking out both sexes this is done as lactation is present in the doe usually until late December where lactation ceases or such is observed through previous does shot which gives a clear indication what state of lactation the does are in that particular area.

I am sure it says November and shoot the doe first

There is a deer welfare issue if you take the Large doe first for me it is kids and then if she stands mum. I have ground that has quite a few deer on at this time of year groups of 10-15 are quite common if i was to shoot mum first there is a chance that the kids will leave with the group.If the kids get orphaned they usually in my opinion suffer and become wea1k and do not make good stock.

quote:

Originally posted by SLDG:
There is a deer welfare issue if you take the Large doe first for me it is kids and then if she stands mum. I have ground that has quite a few deer on at this time of year groups of 10-15 are quite common if i was to shoot mum first there is a chance that the kids will leave with the group.If the kids get orphaned they usually in my opinion suffer and become wea1k and do not make good stock.

Hello Longshot

Or should that be LDG or David Quarrell.

Having been banned from Stalking Directory I see you have decided to show up here. Are you running out of places to haunt, now your own site has bitten the dust, and you are banned from almost everywhere else

If as you say, you have groups of 10-15. How can you be absolutely 100% certain you're matching up kids to does correctly? As they will on occasions be distributed amongst the group.

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Mix:

quote:

Originally posted by SLDG:
There is a deer welfare issue if you take the Large doe first for me it is kids and then if she stands mum. I have ground that has quite a few deer on at this time of year groups of 10-15 are quite common if i was to shoot mum first there is a chance that the kids will leave with the group.If the kids get orphaned they usually in my opinion suffer and become wea1k and do not make good stock.

Hello Longshot

Or should that be LDG or David Quarrell.

Having been banned from Stalking Directory I see you have decided to show up here. Are you running out of places to haunt, now your own site has bitten the dust, and you are banned from almost everywhere else

If as you say, you have groups of 10-15. How can you be absolutely 100% certain you're matching up kids to does correctly? As they will on occasions be distributed amongst the group.

This is an interesting development.

Tell us who you used to be and all mate.

Tom Mix,
Longshot is a name from way way back!LDG is more recent, how is it that as a new member of only 8 days you are aware of this?

The answer to your question is simple, shoot the kids only..
I would however have to question what the hell is going on if you are seeing groups of 10-15..

regards
griff

quote:

Originally posted by griff:
Tom Mix,
Longshot is a name from way way back!LDG is more recent, how is it that as a new member of only 8 days you are aware of this?

The answer to your question is simple, shoot the kids only..
I would however have to question what the hell is going on if you are seeing groups of 10-15..

regards
griff

Griff

Whilst only being a member here for 8 days doesn't stop me from reading other forums.

If you want chapter and verse. He has operated under various names across a wide spectrum of different forums. Stalking, longdog and earth dog mostly.

Longshot, Wireviz, LDG, SLDG, are all one and the same and are just a few that I can remember, there have been numerous others. He ran a site that went under the title Passion for Stalking, (I am sure you remember), for a couple of years but that bit the dust some time ago. His most recent ban was from Stalking Directory for making and I quote " uncaring and offensive comments about a man's father who has recently died " and

"L.D.G here we are again Dave Quarrel.

You accuse someone of being fowl mouthed and yet in the past you have been pulled up on numerous occassions for using unsuitable language on this site.

Your comment about this rifle having a sympathy vote attached to it because a man's father has died is beneath contempt. That is a low remark to make about Mole Trappers situation having lost one of his parents.

YOU ARE BANNED. For good this time.

Have a nice day.

Sikamalc (wearing his FUCKING big Admin hat) "

It was inevitable that he would eventually show up on Accurate Reloading, when so many doors are already barred.

Won't be long before a bad smell goes away then

There are some places were more than one or to deer are allowed Griff with out to much persicution even here in central scotland. With regards Harry,s Question of how you can tell what kid or Kids match up with what doe.There is not really a problem if your not trying to wipe them out time spent obseverinving will clear any doubts up. Know your ground know your quarrie Know your limitations.

Longshot,Wireviz,LDG, SLDG.

Good to know that you have no lingering doubts. Unfortunately I have my doubts about your lack of doubts, amongst other things.

We are all very aware of your limitations thanks.

Tom Mix,
There was no need for that! We are all aware of who is who here, except you that is.
If you have an axe to grind with SDLG then I don't think this is the place to do it, we are all quite tolerant on this site until someone shows up with a hidden agenda.

griff

is it this time of the year again ?

so tom, would you like to introduce yourself, to the rest of the good people here.

this invitation has allready been extended to you on the other tread, but you have proberly not seen it, or can i find pictures of you over on deerstalking as well. ?

best

peter

oh, by the way the best way of outing yourself as a troll is dogding the question and start calling everybody names.

quote:

Originally posted by griff:
Tom Mix,
There was no need for that! We are all aware of who is who here, except you that is.
If you have an axe to grind with SDLG then I don't think this is the place to do it, we are all quite tolerant on this site until someone shows up with a hidden agenda.

griff

Griff

I did consider writing this as a PM. But as you didn't offer me that consideration, I thought it best to respond on the open board.

I apologise to my fellow forum members.

I'm very aware of who is who thanks. But that is a different subject. So returning to your post.

How can I say this as politely as possible?

Wind your neck back in pal!

We all have agenda's, hidden or otherwise, including you, Longshot, and anyone else you care to throw in the pot. So climb down off your self appointed pedestal, and please don't preach what you don't practise.

Tom

Hello Peter

I must have missed the invitation. Good job we have you sweeping up for everybody.
I wasn't aware that introductory posts were a prerequisite of Accurate Reloadings forums. If you could provide a link to some in order for me to get the correct format and style. I'd be only to happy to fill in the questionnaire.. Perhaps you could get SLDG to do one too. That should make for some interesting reading.
I have yet to enter the digital age when it comes to photo's so no picture here or anywhere else, I'm not one for holiday snaps, mug shots or the attention of the paparazzi. I suppose I could simply say you show me yours and I'll think about showing you mine. I'd just need to figure out how, and what with. I am sure there are many ways to be described as a troll.You seem to have a particular keen hold on that wee banner. There seems to be a profusion of people accusing others of being trolls for what ever reason, these days. Perhaps its a sign of the times or a sign of peoples inabilities to think of something else to say, or not to say.

Hmmm.................... now that would be a conundrum, wouldn't it?

No you tit, it wouldn't.

It would be something approximating a polite introduction to the community.

If you are truly inflicted with a profound inability to make your points and pass on the benefit of your wisdom with a modicum of good manners then please at least explain who you are and what your qualifications to preach are.

Consider it a quid quo pro.

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Mix:
Hello Peter

I must have missed the invitation. Good job we have you sweeping up for everybody.

quote:

originally posted by londonhunter:
Why dont we get back to the original topic of driven boar guys

Tom Mix what kind of hunting do you enjoy and where about are your hunting grounds ?

this tread

maybe your ego were in the way

quote:

I wasn't aware that introductory posts were a prerequisite of Accurate Reloadings forums. If you could provide a link to some in order for me to get the correct format and style. I'd be only to happy to fill in the questionnaire..

it is actually only being polite, when entering a new place, to introduce yourself, your parents should have thought you that.

quote:

Perhaps you could get SLDG to do one too.

i hope he do that on his own accord

quote:

I have yet to enter the digital age when it comes to photo's so no picture here or anywhere else, I'm not one for holiday snaps, mug shots or the attention of the paparazzi. I suppose I could simply say you show me yours and I'll think about showing you mine.

that would only be a matter of you actually reading through this forum, when doing so you should to pay attention to the way we try to interact with each other on this forum

quote:

I am sure there are many ways to be described as a troll.You seem to have a particular keen hold on that wee banner. There seems to be a profusion of people accusing others of being trolls for what ever reason, these days. Perhaps its a sign of the times or a sign of peoples inabilities to think of something else to say, or not to say.

Hmmm.................... now that would be a conundrum, wouldn't it?

well, being a sarcastic smartass without actually answering any questions would be a pretty good sign of a troll, wouldn't it?

several people has actually asked you politly, about who you are, as you come on a bit strong for a newbie.

and no, i rarly fly the troll flag simply because we dont need it here, but since OBE and his little circle of hand job friends has arrived that flag has been used, and so far you fit that description quite good.

with the fear of sounding like a broken record, stop dodging the question's, and try to act like a gentleman or at the very least an adult.

peter

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
No you tit, it wouldn't.

It would be something approximating a polite introduction to the community.

If you are truly inflicted with a profound inability to make your points and pass on the benefit of your wisdom with a modicum of good manners then please at least explain who you are and what your qualifications to preach are.

Consider it a quid quo pro.

I see your fondness for lowering the tone has come to the fore again!
As I said "I wasn't aware that introductory posts were a prerequisite of Accurate Reloadings forums. If you could provide a link to some in order for me to get the correct format and style. I'd be only to happy to fill in the questionnaire.. Perhaps you could get SLDG to do one too." Hopefully thats polite enough for you?

If you would care to point out where I have been impolite to preached, I would be happy to address balance. Along with the quid pro quo !

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Mix:
Hello Peter

I must have missed the invitation. Good job we have you sweeping up for everybody.

quote:

originally posted by londonhunter:
Why dont we get back to the original topic of driven boar guys

Tom Mix what kind of hunting do you enjoy and where about are your hunting grounds ?

this tread

maybe your ego were in the way

quote:

I wasn't aware that introductory posts were a prerequisite of Accurate Reloadings forums. If you could provide a link to some in order for me to get the correct format and style. I'd be only to happy to fill in the questionnaire..

it is actually only being polite, when entering a new place, to introduce yourself, your parents should have thought you that.

quote:

Perhaps you could get SLDG to do one too.

i hope he do that on his own accord

quote:

I have yet to enter the digital age when it comes to photo's so no picture here or anywhere else, I'm not one for holiday snaps, mug shots or the attention of the paparazzi. I suppose I could simply say you show me yours and I'll think about showing you mine.

that would only be a matter of you actually reading through this forum, when doing so you should to pay attention to the way we try to interact with each other on this forum

quote:

I am sure there are many ways to be described as a troll.You seem to have a particular keen hold on that wee banner. There seems to be a profusion of people accusing others of being trolls for what ever reason, these days. Perhaps its a sign of the times or a sign of peoples inabilities to think of something else to say, or not to say.

Hmmm.................... now that would be a conundrum, wouldn't it?

well, being a sarcastic smartass without actually answering any questions would be a pretty good sign of a troll, wouldn't it?

several people has actually asked you politly, about who you are, as you come on a bit strong for a newbie.

and no, i rarly fly the troll flag simply because we dont need it here, but since OBE and his little circle of hand job friends has arrived that flag has been used, and so far you fit that description quite good.

with the fear of sounding like a broken record, stop dodging the question's, and try to act like a gentleman or at the very least an adult.

peter

Peter

Shall we deal with it one point at a time.

"maybe your ego were in the way" Nope!I'd missed that omne Perhaps I'm slight less pedantic about reading everything that is posted.

"it is actually only being polite, when entering a new place, to introduce yourself, your parents should have thought you that." Normally as is the norm I just say hi, and nod my head to a few whom I may know from else where. Its a modern 21st C sort of thing, far less formal and stiff, less anal, I'm sure you catch my drift. I don't dress for dinner either, its a come as you are sort of arrangement.

"i hope he do that on his own accord" Yet no prompt from you. Lets all remain hopefull then shall we.

"that would only be a matter of you actually reading through this forum, when doing so you should to pay attention to the way we try to interact with each other on this forum" Whats that got to do with posting photo's ? Are far as I'm aware we interact with one another via the medium of the written word. I don't know of a single persons that has ever interacted with a digital picture.

"well, being a sarcastic smartass without actually answering any questions would be a pretty good sign of a troll, wouldn't it?" That would depend upon what you felt constitutes being a sarcastic smart arse, and what constituted an answer, wouldn't it? I'm sure you have your views on those and I have mine. I just choose not to express them.

"several people has actually asked you politly, about who you are, as you come on a bit strong for a newbie." I wasn't aware of the request and I wasn't aware that as a newbie you are require to walk around on tippy toe in order not to wake the sleeping anti troll patrol.

"and no, i rarly fly the troll flag simply because we dont need it here, but since OBE and his little circle of hand job friends has arrived that flag has been used, and so far you fit that description quite good." Hand job friends. PMSL is that you way of saying clique?

"with the fear of sounding like a broken record, stop dodging the question's, and try to act like a gentleman or at the very least an adult." You'll find I have always been a gentleman and an adult. As for answers to questions are they not a matter of choice? Unless of course we are hoping to run a dictatorship.

You's vill ansor de questions, or ve vill reapply ze electrodes.Ya!