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we have always practiced dependants first, and then the adult, especially leading upto winter so as not to leave orphaned calves to survive the winter alone.

Question:
What is your policy?

Choices:
dependants first
adults first

 
 
Posts: 1179 | Location: scotland | Registered: 28 February 2001Reply With Quote
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When I remember you asking "Why did you shoot the calf first?" Giving the DSC required answer "To avoid leaving a dependant calf " says it all, some stalkers will practice the shoot the adult first & the calf will stay near mum, does'nt always work out. Steve. Smiler
 
Posts: 683 | Location: Chester UK, Home city of the Green collars. | Registered: 14 February 2006Reply With Quote
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My experience is limited, but I would shoot the calf first, then the doe, particularly in the early part of the doe season.

I shot a Sika calf in November last year, the doe ran about 60m and stopped and turned. I was able to shoot the doe then.

Later in the Doe season, say February, a strong calf would have a very good chance of survival, I might leave it then.

Purely being a meat hunter, I would focus on prickets and yearling does as a general rule.


Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not out to get you....
 
Posts: 1484 | Location: Northern Ireland | Registered: 19 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Calf always first. However, sometimes you do not want to shoot neither a calf nor a hind. For example from the group of red deer where lead hind has almost always has calf with her, shooting either calf or hind couses great disturbance within the group. Also early in the season sooting a calf causes lactating hind to suffer from tits inflamation. It is much better to shoot yearlings and leave hinds and this year youngs till January.

Greg
 
Posts: 30 | Location: Glasgow, Scotland | Registered: 21 October 2009Reply With Quote
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I currently have a chamois doe (adult) tag, so, no choice....
 
Posts: 1459 | Location: north-west Italy | Registered: 16 April 2002Reply With Quote
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Come on Griff you should know the answer - you're Scottish!

All truths end at the game dealer. Shot order is weight dependant!!!! Big Grin

Seriously in the soft south fawns should survive. I would consider shooting doe fawns but not buck fawns either for fallow (where it would be legal) or roe where I don't think it is.

The doe season is short enough that self imposed limitations can be self defeating. Get the numbers in early when weather is good and does less educated or run the risk of someone less scrupulous taking on the lease when the cull isn't reached.

I think there are parts of the UK where the issue is now why you haven't shot deer not why you have.
 
Posts: 2032 | Registered: 05 January 2005Reply With Quote
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If we are talking roe, doe first, anything else calf first.
 
Posts: 85 | Location: Glasgow, Scotland | Registered: 11 May 2006Reply With Quote
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in a pair of occasions one personally the second has been told to me, I shot the doe and the adult reamained in the area, some time it has been the exact contrary. In theis kind of poll it would be better put some other options.


bye
Stefano
Waidmannsheil
 
Posts: 1653 | Location: Milano Italy | Registered: 04 July 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by James Johnston:
If we are talking roe, doe first, anything else calf first.

James
interested in why only Roe you would shoot doe first
 
Posts: 238 | Location: coventry, England | Registered: 03 March 2009Reply With Quote
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I literally just walked in the door from a three-day a Red Deer Hunt.

The Tuetons always shoot the Calf first. I'm not implying that Their's is the "Only Way" or "True Way" but it certainly is here if you wish to partake of such organized mayhem.

Female Red Deer, unlike Roe, Sika & Fallow have a comlex Social Structure. On the Continent Red Deer Hinds are based on the "The Threesome". The "Alttiere" (mature Hind), a "Schmaltiere" (a yearling, not yet mature; who will be soon, sorta like today's +14-16 year old young Ladies - how can you tell?), and the "Kalb" (Calf). Prior to the beginning of the Culling season they will pretty much always (there's mortality, twins, etc.) occur in this scheme. In most cases a Yearling and with virtually 100% certainty a Calf will not survive in a Red Deer herd environment without the mature Hind's social interface. They will become outcasts and not live the benefit of herd life; protection (=less stress), nutrition, breeding & social structure - just the way it is.

When I get told to whack the Calf first, the Yearling second and then Momma, I do it - it's their Rule and there is cetrtainly some credence to this pecking (shooting) order - or I become a "Social Outcast" myself in the Teutonic "Hunting Environment" - go figure.

I'm not here to argue the merits one way or another - just to point out what's considered Hoyle here. I've seen countless Calf's bound away while Momma's just taken her Last Bite from a 300 Win. Mag. and the Yearling was nowhere to be seen (happened this weekend and the Forester took a BIG Slice of Ass outa the Hunter who whacked Moma and let the Calf take a dash).

Having said that the reasoning ought to be obvious - a mature animal will survive in a situation where an immature (dependant) animal will/may/most probably expire or become an outcast; so for me the answer is glaringly obvious.

Yes, in most cases Fawns, Yearlings, Does or Hinds will cease their Flee or Fight Syndrome when one or the other is shot and stop to investigate. In this case a second and subsequent telling shot can be delivered but is very terrain dependant. In Forest hunting when visibility is limited in conjuction with the discourse above a Calf or Fawn should ALWAYS be shot initally and the opportunity to complete the deed made; if the opportunity avails itself (it may not). In more open terrain where a second shot may present itself (with a Far-r-r reaching Boomer); you'll have to be the judge of that yourself.

I ramble; but to griff - a good Poll - Thx for the opportunity.


Cheers,

Number 10
 
Posts: 3433 | Location: Frankfurt, Germany | Registered: 23 December 2004Reply With Quote
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I feel you got it right on spot there Gerry regarding the red deer.
The "threesome" happen all the time.
Right now I have such a group on my land almost every evening.

For me the challenge is to find a single hind and a spike buck, that´s what I got left on my license.

The "last week of the season´s" solution is to take a hind even if she got a calf.
By this time of the year, the calf is usually so big that it can take care of it self.

Along the North Western coastal stripe of Norway where I hunt
winters tend to be mild with good access of food.
But as a rule, calf first!


Arild Iversen.



 
Posts: 1880 | Location: Southern Coast of Norway. | Registered: 02 June 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by James Johnston:
If we are talking roe, doe first, anything else calf first.


Totally agree with you James. With Roe its doe first.

With Red or Sika calf first. With Fallow its either why.
 
Posts: 44 | Location: UK | Registered: 31 October 2009Reply With Quote
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as long as the calf is not orphaned ,it matters little.
 
Posts: 60 | Location: south east of ireland | Registered: 17 August 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by john wickham:
as long as the calf is not orphaned ,it matters little.


John

Very true. When you are sure you are going to slot both it matters little in which order you slap them. You just have to make sure you get them both.
 
Posts: 44 | Location: UK | Registered: 31 October 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Old blue eyes:
quote:
Originally posted by James Johnston:
If we are talking roe, doe first, anything else calf first.


Totally agree with you James. With Roe its doe first.

With Red or Sika calf first. With Fallow its either why.


as my previous question
why only in Roe do you shoot the doe first??
can't see the reasoning in that
so maybe you could please explain a little more
regards
 
Posts: 238 | Location: coventry, England | Registered: 03 March 2009Reply With Quote
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In the open with roe I'll take mum first then the young...that way you usually get three deer down. Shoot a kid first and odds are you'll only get the one easy shot!
With herding deer its harder to tell who's who and belongs to whom after the first shot!! so shooting the youngster first is better ....but was it that hind or that hind over there that was mum?
 
Posts: 337 | Location: Devon UK | Registered: 21 March 2002Reply With Quote
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James Johnstone or Old Blue Eyes

As per Richard E's question I am also interested to learn why you would take the adult first especially with roe?

Thank you

JB
 
Posts: 596 | Location: Cheshire, England | Registered: 06 March 2005Reply With Quote
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Richard & Jon

I concur fully wih what trans-pond has already posted

With roe if you shoot the kid first the doe will 9 times out of 10 be off and gone. If she does stop with in range it will be only for a fleeting moment often partially obscured by cover. If you shoot the doe first the kid or kids being less experienced in the ways of the world will provide you with a second and third easier shot. If doe first was good enough for Ronnie Rose, someone who has forgotten more about the management of deer, especially roe deer than most people learn in a life time of stalking, then its good enough for me. I'm certainly not equipped with sufficient knowledge to argue the point with him. Wink

Hill red its young first simply due to the welfare issue. Woodland red especially southern rather than scottish woodland red, shooting the calf first is less of a welfare issue due to the easier living conditions. Especially as the season progresses and the calf has had longer to matured.

With Sika, well Sika are Sika. Wink

With Fallow as long as the group is not to big, less than 8, you can usually shoot it either way. Once you start to get larger groups ganging together as Trans -pond said, was it that doe or that doe over there that was mum? However I have often seen small groups of youngsters doing very nicely for themselves by the time the doe season has been under way for a few weeks.
 
Posts: 44 | Location: UK | Registered: 31 October 2009Reply With Quote
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In the case of getting numbers (reducing deer impact) and I was fulltime on the ground, I would take the adult first, then take the follower.

If couldn't get the follower there and then then would suspect that I would "bump" into it another day before (and if) starvation was to kick in.

Just what we used to do....however if I was a guest on someones elses ground might take the follower first unless otherwise told otherwise.

NW
 
Posts: 418 | Location: Derbyshire, England | Registered: 09 January 2005Reply With Quote
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When you're out chasing the numbers you're going to bump into that follower soon or later any way.

Besides when its numbers they all count in the larder book.
 
Posts: 44 | Location: UK | Registered: 31 October 2009Reply With Quote
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Thank you for explaining.
 
Posts: 596 | Location: Cheshire, England | Registered: 06 March 2005Reply With Quote
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Any time. coffee
 
Posts: 44 | Location: UK | Registered: 31 October 2009Reply With Quote
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No mention made of the sex of roe fawns. Are people really shooting buck fawns? Of questionable legality (personaly I don't think it is legal) and not conducive to trophy management if that is an issue.

I shoot fallow and roe to reduce impact as per Nightwalkers post. An issue not addressed is that each doe shot will be pregnant and hence double or 3 times (roe) the effect. This is a significant issue in some areas. If you are concerned over shooting heavily pregnant does in March then I would submit that that is the time to shoot fawns.
 
Posts: 2032 | Registered: 05 January 2005Reply With Quote
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1894,
the FC policy is that is its under 12 months old then it has no sex.If its good enough for the FC then its good enough for me.

There is a section in the Best Practice guide that says if you orphan roe kids they do not have the learning ability on how to survive the winter,they do not learn the feeding pattern that is taught to them from the adult..

regards
griff
 
Posts: 1179 | Location: scotland | Registered: 28 February 2001Reply With Quote
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Many valid points here.

Roe, especially mature Does having twins really puts pressure on us to reduce numbers. With the Fawns it's a pretty even sexual split with normally 1 each Male/Female. I don't know if anyone else has observed this but of Roe Deer Fawn Twins; the Female is usually the fitest of the two in the Fall. Perhaps just the luck of the draw the way I've been exposed - dunno?

My expereince is that when a Roe Doe (with twins) is shot straight away, usually one of the Fawns will stand and gawk, so I quickly reload, ensure all's Hoyle with Momma (down) and then and do in the first Fawn. Within a few minutes (almost always less than 5) the second Fawn will return to the scene of the crime, making for a "threesome".


Cheers,

Number 10
 
Posts: 3433 | Location: Frankfurt, Germany | Registered: 23 December 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by griff:
1894,
the FC policy is that is its under 12 months old then it has no sex.If its good enough for the FC then its good enough for me.

There is a section in the Best Practice guide that says if you orphan roe kids they do have the learning ability on how to survive the winter,they do not learn the feeding pattern that is taught to them from the adult..

regards
griff


Griff

Something of a rather confused message there regarding roe kids, either they have the capacity to learn and therefore survive or they don't. It can't be both.

In which set of best practice guides, as there are at least 2 about that I know of, is it so noted?

The only reference to kids survivability learning skills I can find in the ones I have, are a few lines on social dependency.

Are you trying to imply that Ronnie Rose has got it wrong, when it comes to sequential target selection in regards to the management of roe does and dependent kids?
 
Posts: 44 | Location: UK | Registered: 31 October 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Old blue eyes:
quote:
Originally posted by griff:
1894,
the FC policy is that is its under 12 months old then it has no sex.If its good enough for the FC then its good enough for me.

There is a section in the Best Practice guide that says if you orphan roe kids they do have the learning ability on how to survive the winter,they do not learn the feeding pattern that is taught to them from the adult..

regards
griff


Griff

Something of a rather confused message there regarding roe kids, either they have the capacity to learn and therefore survive or they don't. It can't be both.

In which set of best practice guides, as there are at least 2 about that I know of, is it so noted?

The only reference to kids survivability learning skills I can find in the ones I have, are a few lines on social dependency.

Are you trying to imply that Ronnie Rose has got it wrong, when it comes to sequential target selection in regards to the management of roe does and dependent kids?

i agree with griff's post here
yes the kids may survive with out the doe for guidance but hav less knowledge of feeding patterns and more chance of being killed or maimed on the road
plus making easier targets for poachers or just joe blogg's dog that gives chase by chance
aswell as other dangers that might be avoided if they had guidance of a parent

but i think you might of missed one vital part of Ronnie Rose's words
he was managing Roe numbers, not Roe as a species as you hav posted
there is a big difference Wink
 
Posts: 238 | Location: coventry, England | Registered: 03 March 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard E:
quote:
Originally posted by Old blue eyes:
quote:
Originally posted by griff:
1894,
the FC policy is that is its under 12 months old then it has no sex.If its good enough for the FC then its good enough for me.

There is a section in the Best Practice guide that says if you orphan roe kids they do have the learning ability on how to survive the winter,they do not learn the feeding pattern that is taught to them from the adult..

regards
griff


Griff

Something of a rather confused message there regarding roe kids, either they have the capacity to learn and therefore survive or they don't. It can't be both.

In which set of best practice guides, as there are at least 2 about that I know of, is it so noted?

The only reference to kids survivability learning skills I can find in the ones I have, are a few lines on social dependency.

Are you trying to imply that Ronnie Rose has got it wrong, when it comes to sequential target selection in regards to the management of roe does and dependent kids?

i agree with griff's post here
yes the kids may survive with out the doe for guidance but hav less knowledge of feeding patterns and more chance of being killed or maimed on the road
plus making easier targets for poachers or just joe blogg's dog that gives chase by chance
aswell as other dangers that might be avoided if they had guidance of a parent

but i think you might of missed one vital part of Ronnie Rose's words
he was managing Roe numbers, not Roe as a species as you hav posted
there is a big difference Wink


I expected nothing else than for you to agree with Griff. In fact I would have been astonished if you had disagreed with him. Wink

The question was not will the kids survive but what would you shoot first and why.

I can assure you I haven't missed a vital part of the great man's words. Managing roe, is managing roe.There is no difference.

Management strategies change for each and every species depending upon the circumstances. However the fundamental management best practices remains the same regardless of the strategy. In respect to roe does, the best practices is shoot the doe first and then the kid or kids.
 
Posts: 44 | Location: UK | Registered: 31 October 2009Reply With Quote
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o'l blue eyes
Have edited the post to "do not learn",typing error.

Why would Richard E agree with me ? Never Met the guy,or spoke to him..

regards
griff
 
Posts: 1179 | Location: scotland | Registered: 28 February 2001Reply With Quote
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Hi Griff

I wondered if that had been the case.

I did ask you where and in what best practice did it say they couldn't or wouldn't survive the winter.

Perhaps you could answer that question too?

As for Dickie agreeing with you. Not with standing a long and protracted explanation. Which I'm sure no one is really interested in apart from you or Dickie. I shall simply leave it to your imagination and intuition. Wink
 
Posts: 44 | Location: UK | Registered: 31 October 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Old blue eyes:
Hi Griff

I wondered if that had been the case.

I did ask you where and in what best practice did it say they couldn't or wouldn't survive the winter.

Perhaps you could answer that question too?

As for Dickie agreeing with you. Not with standing a long and protracted explanation. Which I'm sure no one is really interested in apart from you or Dickie. I shall simply leave it to your imagination and intuition. Wink
Now I'm a little more interested in this Big Grin
 
Posts: 683 | Location: Chester UK, Home city of the Green collars. | Registered: 14 February 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Old blue eyes:
Hi Griff

As for Dickie agreeing with you. Not with standing a long and protracted explanation. Which I'm sure no one is really interested in apart from you or Dickie. I shall simply leave it to your imagination and intuition. Wink


Old Blue Eyes.....is back! (H5N1 again?)

As with Steve - I'm fascinated as well. Smiler

Tell us all - this sounds like insider knowledge for sure!


Just taking my rifle for a walk!........
 
Posts: 1306 | Location: Devon, UK | Registered: 21 August 2001Reply With Quote
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As I am too. Perhaps Griff will not be able to provide the answer to the question.
 
Posts: 44 | Location: UK | Registered: 31 October 2009Reply With Quote
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c'mon bluey
am i not allowed to agree with another member's post now , if i think they are right
you did
so whats the difference Confused
but like i said
managing Roe by numbers is not the same as managing a species
and as you say
you don't know enough about it to say wether Ronnie is right or wrong
so you will be led by him just goes to show
give Ronnie a call and ask him about how he would manage Roe as a species
might make interesting reading
i hav a number if you require Wink
as for the original question
Kid first and depending wether i hav a choice will depend on which kid
even with Muntjac Wink
 
Posts: 238 | Location: coventry, England | Registered: 03 March 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Old blue eyes:
As I am too. Perhaps Griff will not be able to provide the answer to the question.


Me too
as you brought it up coffee
 
Posts: 238 | Location: coventry, England | Registered: 03 March 2009Reply With Quote
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Dickie

You can agree or disagree with whom ever you like. Just don't try and play the innocent when it come to the reasons why. Wink
You can repeat your misinformed opinion all you want, it still doesn't make it right or any the less informed.
What I actually wrote was "I'm certainly not equipped with sufficient knowledge to argue the point with him." I very much doubt if anybody is sufficiently equipped to do so.I most certainly didn't write that I couldn't say whether he was right or wrong. As you have tried to suggest. There is a world of difference between the two. But then you of course knew that already. I say he is very right indeed. You really will have to try harder if you want to make a serious point.
Again I say you are misinformed, and misguided if you think managing roe by numbers is not the same as managing roe as a species. Again I refer you to my earlier post in which I stated the following "Management strategies change for each and every species depending upon the circumstances. However the fundamental management best practices remains the same regardless of the strategy. In respect to roe does, the best practices is shoot the doe first and then the kid or kids.". I too have his number. But I can see little point in disturbing him to have a pointless conversation regarding your misinformed and misguided opinions on the managemnet of roe.

Like I said you can agree or disagree, its the same with target selection you can choose to do it the right way which is the way prescribed by the man who knows more about roe management than you and just about everybody alive, or you can choose to do it your way which is the wrong way. Do I care? Not in the least!

I see you can't even get it right for muntjac. Oh well, theres no helping some people!

If I could make one small suggestion. At least attempt to use some form of sentence structure,punctuation, and capitals in your posts. It makes you look less like a retarded 13 year old chav and helps those who have to try and read the thing, to form some kind of impression about what you are trying to convey to your respondent with out having to resort to reading the post 2 or 3 times. A common courtesy I sure you would agree, seeing as we are by and large an adult written word medium, and not some prepubescent text chat room. in'it. lol
 
Posts: 44 | Location: UK | Registered: 31 October 2009Reply With Quote
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Berkeley is reputed to have said of Johnson: "He kicked the stone but missed the point"
If OBE has a point, its buried in an attack on the man and his grammaticals.
As to who is true custodian of the wisdom of Ronnie Rose or whoever, it all smacks a little of "The Life of Brian".


Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened. Sir Winston Churchill
 
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I await Brians comment on this Big Grin
 
Posts: 683 | Location: Chester UK, Home city of the Green collars. | Registered: 14 February 2006Reply With Quote
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Interesting points (the stalking bits that is!)

I think there is a world of difference between southern England and Scotland for this scenario. I'm now in my 7th year of shooting fairly considerable numbers of does with doe fawns on a large patch of ground right from 1st November and leaving the buck fawns (heartbreaking sometimes having to shoo them off). I've not seen any dying buck fawns thereafter nor particularly rubbish ones thereafter in April. More artificial food around in the shape of grain from game shoots and more high value foodstuffs such as rape pluse much milder weather.

I don't think if plod wants to get difficult that FC practice would make much odds. Certainly my contact with the great and the good (Dominic Griffith) taught me to avoid shooting button bucks and gave me the impression that when I did so I was transgressing.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Old blue eyes:
In respect to roe does, the best practices is shoot the doe first and then the kid or kids.".


if this is not some kind of joke, that i miss completly, then it has to be the worst advice i have ever heard regarding roe population if we are talking about managing roe.
im sure that if you have to take out significant numbers of the population then it would be a good strategy, othervice forget it.

when out managing roe, weakest kid and/or female kid first.

best regards

peter
 
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