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One of Us |
This nothing to do with the good doctor, this is about a suitable calibre for Chinese water deer. I had a chance to cull one last weekend and the trusty '06 made a bit of a mess of it. Over to the floor, get another calibre, if so which one, or download the '06? What would you do? Regards, Amir | ||
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Haven't managed to shoot one yet, but the guy who took us out after CWD at Baldock swore by his 220 swift. As per yesterdays conversation, just use a slighty heavier tougher bullet out of the 30/06 for small deer - 165 interlock or the like. Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not out to get you.... | |||
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Ditto It ain't the calibre or speed - it's the bullet construction.  Rgds Ian Just taking my rifle for a walk!........ | |||
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I had good success with a 160 Sierra GK in 7x64. Here's my C.I.C. silver Muntjac buck, shot in Woodstock (Oxfordshire) :  André DRSS --------- 3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact. 5 shots are a group. | |||
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Hi Amir Glad you had a great time last weekend. May I suggest you to invest in a box of 125 grain Ballistic tips if you are worried about meat damage. Projectile choice and shot placement is so important. You have a very versitile caliber 30-06. Don't change the gun change your choice of projectile. That's the prudent way to go about it. On the low end you have 110 grain and on the hight end you can shoot 220 grain. What more can you ask for....? Honestly 125 Nosler Ballistic in 30-06 you won't regret it. Would you describe this caliber I used last weekend as "surgical" no pun intended......  | |||
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I am afraid I did....... 110 yards 6.5 x 55 with 140 bergers VLD jammed shot from behind. The bullet hit the spine and decapitated it ........well virtually Longest shot of the day was 411 yards from a highseat. These bergers are with revised BC's are unbelivably flat. I have to redo all my drop charts now..............  From the same estate just shy off the world record  | |||
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totally agree aswell as shot placement if after meat, head or neck if after a mount for the wall then chest them makes no different if using a .222 or a .375 the result will be the same if worried about where to shoot as a result of meat damage or ruining a trophy then take up a different sport, till you hav more confidence in your shooting or your ability out in the field but practice makes perfect at times i hav used my 30-06 with 180 grain nosler solid base heads to great effect on these beautifull little deer , never had a problem to yet | |||
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Thanks for the advice chaps, it seems as if another choice of bullet is the way forward here but I must give maximum kudos to Peter for not only guessing that I was looking for an excuse to get another stalking rifle but also suggesting what would be possibly the classiest choice ever for dedicated CWD rifle  The trouble is Peter that our firearms licensing police can have even less of a sense of humour than German airport security so I think I’ll have to put off applying for my paradox (I now officially want one) until I have had my license a bit longer...... Regards, Amir | |||
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I haven't used a 125 grain ballistic tip but would assume this is even more fast expanding and damaging than the 150 grain softs you are currently using. Maybe try some Barnes X bullets? | |||
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I suppose I’d better tell a bit of my story.... Imagine a world where you're mobility is suddenly impaired to the extent that coughing is a painful exercise. I know that many live in this unfortunate predicament, many more deserving and generally good than I. I was however struck down, for my sins, with a slipped disc pressing on my sciatic nerve in October of last year. The worst thing was I had gotten the nod from plod and was due to pick my first rifle at around that time as well. The ticket landed on my doormat in late January and the story of subsequent events is told elsewhere on this forum. I had the rifle, I had the stock finishing kit courtesy of Dig at vintageguns.co.uk, I had the reloading components( eventually, with a little help from a few dear friends ) and I had the time. Consequently the rifle was used for polishing, admiring and lots and lots of oiling, mainly oiling in fact. What it had not done is, in the immortal words of Uglystick, put blood on the ground. Valliant friends thrust themselves into the breech to redress this omission, Fallowbuck painted a picture of a deerstalkers utopia, hilly and rugged - a land where a backstop was never difficult to find; IanF invited me to stalk a red deer on the understanding that I arrived with a foolproof plan for extracting the carcass from the knife profile like valleys that litter the Devonian hills, Jon2 sent me word of the borders' country siren song and Boggy observed that arguably dulce et decorum est to shoot me on the basis that I was a cull buck if I couldn't even get into a high seat. Salt of the earth the lot of them. Now it turns out that my informal back specialist, having observed my attempts at independent motion on a recent driven boar trip, had wisely and tactful informed the merry men that I was risking incurable pains in my posterior should I be foolish enough to go stalking before the operation and recovery. Slowly I began to realise the wisdom of his words, he knew his onions after all and had observed my state of health, or otherwise, in person and So I began to think of my abilities more accurately. Whilst having never exactly ascribed a cheetah in the hunting field, in my current trim it would be fair to say I closer to Garfield in ability and athleticism. I was then both pleased and surprised to get a telephone call from the good doctor on Friday afternoon last, asking me if I fancied a crack at some CWD that needed culling urgently from a farm near Woburn, just north of London. I was slightly taken aback; here was the architect of stalking leprosy talking about a chance to blood the rifle! I asked a few tactful questions, got a few tactful replies and thusly reassured that I would effectively be under medical supervision the whole time, or at least within gunshot of medical supervision, I was good to go. The only slight problem being that we had to meet at HQ in north London at 4 in the morning. Have I mentioned before how much waking up in the dark disagrees with me? (Shudder) Off home and to bed to snatch a few hours of sleep before waking up at 3am to gather kit and drive to North London. We met up with LH and another doctor friend ( medical supervision, can't beat it!) and set off to arrive in the time honoured manner, in a pub car park half an hour before dawn. Paul the game keeper met us in the larder and after the safety talk and plan of action we split off with our respective ghillies to find some Chinese Water Deer. I was confident; the trick with culling is not to shoot anything you don't want to pay for. During the talk I asked Paul whose responsibility it was to select the beast. He said that it was the ghillies' of course and so noticing that one had probably had a big night before and was attempting to doze as subtly as possible in the corner I seized upon this chance and declared "I want the sleepy one!". After a few moments of off-the-cuff remarks I managed to phrase my desire for a particular ghillie a bit better and with the promise of cold hard cash, I got my man. Off we went in his corsa (!) to our beat. Out of the car, rifles loaded and stalking to the high seat along the edge of a planted field I suddenly stopped. There were deer, literally, everywhere! Little groups of two and three dotted about with the closest 250 yards away and a herd of perhaps 15 on the other side of the field, these were perhaps 500-700 yards away. "Deer" I hissed at my rather young ghillie. "Yes" he very politely, in the circumstances, whispered back "don't worry, we'll get to that high seat", pointing to a stand about 150 yards away, "and we'll go from there, there's a better chance of taking a few off the seat than from here" He was of course absolutely correct, the undulations of the ground meant that the deer could disappear and re-appear at will and a shot from the un-moderated 30.06 would have certainly scattered them like nine-pins. Telling myself that this lad of 19 had probably been shooting and stalking for years longer than I had, and certainly taken many more deer, I resolved to shut up and do as I was told. We got to the high seat, which I immediately noticed had "Character building" as one of it's primary design goals. The rungs were at precisely the right spacing to warrant a lovely meaty sciatic stretch in climbing from each and every one to the next. Having arrived at the top in the opposite of good humour I then noticed that the seat was patently only ever designed to take one occupant. I emphasise that I am built for comfort and style rather than speed and economy and I was bloody glad that Jamie was rather the opposite. We eventually got comfortable and glassed the field, spotting many CWD but finding that they were out of comfortable range. The closest was about 300 yards away and although others with more skill will take shots at that distance but your humble scribe risks both barrels of the eyebrows from a certain gentleman that will not be named if he were to mess it up! Besides, if they got closer I could take more than one! We spent an hour in the high seat quietly chatting and watching the world wake up. I love that first hour in the high seat, it is almost not a deerstalking thing for me, it’s closer to a live nature documentary where you can direct the camera and linger on any old detail, no matter how small, for as long as you please. At about half past six Jamie decided we should go for a little stalk, I was apprehensive as to how my back would hold up but as we had been tantalized by deer for the past hour resolved to make it as far as possible. The estate had a quad bike in any event and I decided that if I collapsed in a dramatic enough heap I could get Jamie to pity me enough to go back and pick me up in it. The light was still a watery grey as we skirted the wood to left of the high seat in order to take advantage of a bridleway that offered a covered and downwind approach to the far end of the field. Jamie was sure that the deer would still be feeding there as they are not shot at all during the pheasant season. He was true to his word, we sneaked along the bridleway, praying not to meet any jodhpur-clad environmentalists along the way until we were within 80-110 yards of the herd. Some were lying on their sides, apparently watching a hot air balloon, and other were nearby chewing blissfully on the farmers profits. The next phase was down to Jamie, he had to select the right beast. I had told him I had no desire to try and shoot a buck that was just in the limit or anything like that and to simply select a beast that would fit well in the cull plan. We (I) had a scare when the first buck he told me to shoot, on the basis that although it looked mature it had no tusk, turned around and revealed a monster tusk on the other side! That could have been an expensive mistake. He pointed out a young doe, apparently recognizable from the reddish tinge to it’s fur, and I lined up on the sticks waiting for it to get broadside. My back let me down however as standing still, hunched over a rifle I can with authority say is the most painful position I can be in at the moment. With the regular jolts of agony running down my leg the crosshairs would not settle. “I’m too unstable mate” I said “OK” Jamie replied and then sensibly waited for me to come up with plan B. “I can shoot prone, I’ll try and get to that crest over there” pointing to a 6” berm between the boundary of the bridleway and the field “If there’s a backstop I’ll take her from there” Jamie agreed and crouched down with the binos to observe the shot. The great thing about going stalking with someone new is that not knowing your abilities, or having heard salacious rumours, they by and large let you get on with it. The nerve-wracking thing about going stalking with someone new is that not knowing your abilities, or having heard salacious rumours, they by and large let you get on with it. The pressure was on and feeling like a proper stalker I slowly got prone, making sure the rifle was held such that the safety catch was pointing up, and crawled the whole 8 feet to the berm. I put the rifle up and rested it on my hand, I found I could not get enough elevation and so placed my hand on a handily located strand of barbed wire fence. All being good and the rest solid I watched the doe through the scope for what felt like hours, in reality of course it couldn’t have been more than a few seconds, until she turned broadside. The crosshairs found her shoulder and I touched the round off. In the time the rifle had come down from recoil I could see the doe lying in exactly the spot she had stood her foreleg twitching. I reloaded and kept looking. Someone miles away was saying something and I felt some slapping on my back but I, of course, was elswhere. She was profoundly done for. We had a victory cigarette and walked over to the beast. Almost immediately I spotted a fairly fundamental organ belonging to the late doe on the grass a foot and a half behind it. My first thoughts were “uh-oh” but I wasn’t entirely sure why. When we went up to it and rolled it over it was apparent that the doe was missing its rib-cage on the offside. The 30.06 is a great round for all-round stalking, but I understand why it legal to shoot them with a .22 CF. We tidied up as best as we could, took the photo and dragged it to where it would be picked up later. I felt like I had enough for the morning and since it was about half seven anyway we packed up and headed back to the larder for tea and discussions. Needless to say, I bought the carcass….. Regards, GH | |||
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Amir Regret to inform you that We actually turned up at the WRONG estate that mornjing and technically we were POACHING. I am sorry but its was too early for me as well. It was dark and meeting at a pub car park was a bad idea. I have just had a visit from the firearms officer and I have voluntarily surrendered all my guns. It took them 02 vans to remove them all.... They told me they will be visiting you next............. | |||
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 As far as i'm aware the "he made me do it" defence is the best I have left under the circumstances! They wouldn't take a cripple's guns away would they? Surely not even them? Besides, what is the gamekeepers excuse? He even gave me my shoes back..... | |||
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Happy April's fool Amir................ BTW there is a bullet recall for all who is reading this http://www.wimp.com/hollowpoint/ | |||
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There are various things you can do to make your 06 more meat friendly and make smaller holes in smaller deer. They are variously - increase bullet weight, decrease velocity (a function of the former generally), increase bullet toughness (also often a byproduct of the former). Of course there is no such thing as a free lunch. Your 06 is now going to drop more perhaps to the extent that matters on such small quarry and punch straight through the deer at any angle (so frontal or angled shots from the front are now going to destroy haunches or through and through rupture the rumen) It is also going to have a increased propensity to ricochet which as the bullet is heavier and tougher and CWD are often located on big flat fields might be an issue. My experience on roe and muntjac is that 243 bullet diameter is the largest one can go and use full velocity and properly (ie sierra soft point or ballistic tip etc)expanding bullets without getting holes that are too large. A 22 centre fire produces noticeably smaller holes but is also less lethal on a pure lung shot. It is also a pain where larger deer are co-located. Me I'd use a 243 and a hornady 70gr softpoint at any velocities. When I do use larger calibres on muntjac I prefer to sacrifice the shoulders in order to ensure the rumen isn't ruptured which can happen regardless of bullet construction when a bullet is placed behind the shoulder. And now a question. Does the new legislation for centre fire 22s for Muntjac and CWC translate to allow 6mm and above rifles to shoot bullets at the lower (?1000ftlbs) energy level required for the 22s? | |||
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IMHO yes as long as the minimum energy requirment is met, viz a calibre of not less than 0.220" and ME of not less than 1000 ftlbs. together with the minimum weight of course, so your 50 grain bullet will have to do ~3000fps, your 70 grain ~2550 and the 100 2150-2200. That last is interesting actually, very low velocity plus a decent soft bullet.... Also note that the energy requirements, energy being to the square of velocity prclude the use of subsonic rounds like even upto 404 calibre!, one would need a 420gr bullet to meet the requirements, clever drafting I think. Regards, Amir PS. thanks for the advice on the 06  | |||
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amir i do love the way you spin a yarn, very hemmingway'sk for sure. now had you only used a prober rifle and a prober bullet you would be abel to eat right up to the exit hole. a 12 gauge round ball going at around 1000-1100 fps should take care of that in a heartbeat. and the meat damage is almost nil. you also get the nice bang flop effect as well, which is allways nice. congratulations on your CWD peter P.S. stalking from horse back makes the bum back go away easy | |||
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That's probably the worst thing I have ever seen on here. Really anti-comedy bullshit! | |||
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Great story Amir, I had no problem visiualizing this early morning stalk. And I followed your hardship to the extent that my back was acing like hell when the shot finally rang Yes...the thutty o´six can be a devastating caliber for small critters, but deadly man, very deadly. Arild Iversen. | |||
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Now that I've heard the law in the UK I would say that a 6mm of some description running a lighter bullet at more sane non varmint velocities would work extremely well. I've shot a few roe in Scotland with a 55gr ballistic tip from a 243 at the Scottish energy levels and the result is excellent. Flat trajectory, low recoil, excellent killing power with reasonable balance of penetration and expansion. I've done it often enough that I view it as completely reliable. It's not too difficult to achieve - merely start loads with the fastest powders published. | |||
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Amir- mate congrats on your first Chinese, regarding the damage done, to your back and to the beast, I belive that a shot just behind the shoulder should lead to less damage, what infernal bullet were you shooting, me with 150 grains SGK in a 308 Win, did not mess up the deer to much the last trip ower on your lovely island, I belive the only deer taken that looked slightly worse for wear besides being dead were the two muntjacs I shot at the extended range of 15 meters. Dude you really have to be careful with that body of yours, how about a few months of fresh swedish air, a select few blonde female personal trainers and a extended leave of absence? Best regards Chris | |||
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I've got a bad back too!!! Don't forget me!! I can limp as well if that helps???!??!?! FB | |||
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Back off you! It's first struck down, first served!  Regards, Amir | |||
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Hello mate! Thank you for your kind words, it was only a doe but at least I have finally managed to blood that tikka. The bullet was the same Speer 150gr boat-tail that Ian uses. On larger deer, even Roe, it makes a little hole in and a 1”-2” hole out. The Chinese was quatering slightly towards, no more that a few degrees and the shot was an inch behind the shoulder and hit a rib. The shock broke it’s facing shoulder I think, the foreleg was decidedly wobbly, and took out the rib cage on the offside more or less in it’s entirety. The range was about 90 yards I think and the load is a fast one. I will try some 165grainers and a little less velocity next time if I have to shoot a CWD with the ’06 but I think I now have the perfect excuse to get another rifle. 1894 has hinted, as subtly as ever, on the right calibre for these tiny deer, much as I irrationally hate the 243 it looks like it is a very useful tool in the uk. As to the very kind offer of your last paragraph, I can only say “yes please”, “hell yes” and “yes,yes,yes,yes”. Mr. '98, Sir. When I’m off the cull list we have to put some plans into action! I hope all is well and to see you soon. Regards, Amir | |||
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Thank you Peter, I embarrass the memory of ‘Ol Pop for sure but confess that "The Green Hills of Africa" is one of my very favourite books full stop. I am again in awe of your tools of choice for this sort of work; I would truly love to go off stalking with a 6 foot musket over one shoulder, a bag of explosives over the other and trusty steed to take up the strain! I have always identified with more than a few of the romantic aspects of game shooting and deerstalking. To turn up with a 12 bore BP rifle and horse would have such panache as to utterly blow the farmers and gamekeepers in this country away  In fact, Kiri when I come on Saturday can I .......  All the best Sir, Amir | |||
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Thanks Arlid, I hear you can tell a hunting story or two yourself! I am sorry to hear about your back, I had no idea what profound understandings of the terrible, universal truth behind the phrase "Pain in the Arse" was possible until I slipped a disc. The wise old sage that coined the phrase must have indeed been fellow sufferer. As to the '06, yep I can see why it is suitable for everything below buff! Regards, Amir | |||
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Amir, a slow and nice 6,5x55 is the true answer to a medium deer rifle in my humble opinion, as for how I am doing, my office is moving, we have about five polish builders and an assortment of other unknowns here. Here is a very representative pic of how it all looks, sort of hard to be productive in this environment. And Amir, yes we will have a get together as soon as you recover. Best regards Chris  | |||
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Stalkers get wedded to bullets - so I need to tread lightly! But you might find that the speer boat tail is partially to blame. I have found that a small difference in expandability to make a really big difference on carcass damage in my 30-06. The speer is by their own admission a more expanding bullet than their hot core spitzer and that isn't exactly a slouch on the expansion front itself. Don't get me wrong I actualy use the speer boat tail myself for about 50% of my deer stalking but that's an 85gr 243 BTSP. It works very well but I can see it likes to expand. The bullet which has worked extremely well for me on UK deer in 30cals has been the 150gr sierra pro hunter. I have no particular axe to grind but it fells fallow very reliably and makes very little mess of roe. I shot a roe buck with that exact bullet this morning out of my 308 (max load varget so not hanging around) and the damage was very slight. Quartering is to be avoided if possible with a bigger rifle. It leads to greater expansion. | |||
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I feel for you fella, that looks a bloody nightmare! I can only imagine what dealing with clients can be like in the middle of that lot! As for the 6.5  ssssh! I was thinking exactly the same as you but got a stern ticking off from Captain Sensible and his heavies for buying too many guns!Honestly I think they're on the government payroll..... ATB, Amir | |||
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No need to tread lightly old chap, the only thing I know for sure is my own ignorance! I think the situation is much as you and the other experienced chaps on here say, i.e. bullet a little frangible because speed a little high because bullet a little light because calibre a little too big because deer a little too small for ....(back to the beginning of the sentence). I think I should get a 243 in my armoury for foxes and the like anyway and a 6.5x55 for the middle ground. the 30.06 could stay for large deer, boar and one day Africa. I will try 165gr in the .06 anyway, I have heard good things about accubonds and interlocks, any others worth considering? Regards, Amir PS. Thank you, and of course everyone else, for taking the time to pass on your experience on this, it is much appreciated. | |||
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amir those calibers pretty much cover the same ground, so save your money and work with the bullets you have for the 30-06. and start looking at all the nice calibers you can stuff in drillings and dbl. rifles as well. the shot and ball guns are really a lot fun, but it demands quite a bit of stalking to get the most from them(thats the fun part). maybe a nice light break action in a 7x57r would be good for you, you can get them with the most beautyful english styling. remember dbl rifles can shoot as good as bolt guns and dont have to cost you an arm and a leg. best regards peter(with a bum back as well) | |||
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Andre Mertens swears by the 165gr sierra gameking hollow point as quite a tough bullet. They are generally accurate (sierras) and cheap to try. A 30-06 with 165s, 6.5x55 with 140s and 243 with 85 or 90s is a great selection. Lots of crossover in case something breaks but enough difference for each to have a niche at which it excels. You could do it with just the 243 and 30-06 on factory ammunition if you wanted. | |||
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Thank you for the tip Andre, is that the hollow or softpoint Gameking you used? That is a very nice Muntjac buck by the way! REgards, Amir | |||
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Hmmmmmmmm. A double rifle you say? Now that certainly has appeal, Mr IanF has a very nice drilling he takes stalking with no complaints..... I can feel a google search coming on Regards, Amir | |||
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There's nothing I could add to 1894mk2's statement. More often than not, it's a matter of bullet rather than caliber. I never used smaller than 7x64 on Roe, incl. a few Muntjac. I use 160 Sierra GK BTSP on lighter game and switch to the GK HPBT if there's a chance for Wild Boar or Red deer. I've since (and temporarely*) replaced the 7x64 bbl. by a new one in .30-06 in which I shoot the 165 GK equivalent bullets. If no big bones are hit, venison damage and haematoma are minimal on soft animals (even less so with the .30-06) and I think a heavier bullet would destroy even less. I like the accuracy, flat shooting and fast killing of the 160-165 bullets and I'll stick to them though. The picture Muntjac buck was shot with a 7mm Sierra 160 GK SPBT (frontal chest shot and bullet recovered in opposing ham). The trophy was scored C.I.C. silver.  *Nothing wrong with the 7x64. I bought a new .30-06 bbl. for my Sauer 202 and it's my latest fad. As a matter of fact, I can't tell any difference whatsoever between the 2 calibers. André DRSS --------- 3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact. 5 shots are a group. | |||
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I am no ballistics expert or even up on all my calibres but i do know a little about bullet damage from the calibres that i use start with the .243 win, 100 grain hornaday boat tail sp using 41 grains reloader 22, federal cases and 210 primers thought i had a few more pics than this fallow doe entry wound .243,   exit wound   cwd  found a few more for the 30-06 using 180 nosler solid base sp 51 grains of varget, federal cases and 210 primers Roe buck side on neck shot at 50+ yards  head shot fallow calf at 40+ yards  fallow doe at 40+ yards entry back of neck  exit through mouth  exit wound fallow buck 30-06 at 100+ yards   muntjac 30-06 neck shot from behind notice extensive exit wound damage 20+ yards, it ran ten feet or so  different munty at 150+ yards entry wound   exit wound   very little meat damage   shot placement counts more than which calibre is best in my book , but i do like the little xtra the 30-06 provides ATB Richard | |||
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