I have a bit of a problem which after quite some consideration I would like very much appreciate you gentlemens' help with.

I seem to shoot a disproportionate number of deer too far back.

I realise that this is not perhaps the most tasteful of bad habits to admit to but feel obliged to try and do something about it.

As I am laid up I'm writing up a gamebook of sorts, just a brief description of events and notes on each outing in a moleskine notebook (I have a fetish for them, blame you-know-who).

As I read through it I realised that apart from my first ever deer, a inexplicably perfect high heart/lung shot, and the Chinese Water Deer I had shot all of my deer to some degree too far back.

I have been lucky in that none got away, or even took longer than a minute to expire, but it still bothers me that despite making an mental effort to place the crosshairs "just behind the shoulder, about a third of the way up broadside" and actually waiting to shoot my deer broadside or as near as damn it broadside, I seem to be consistently shooting them 3-4" too far back on fallow, 2-3" on Roe and perhaps a little less on the sole fox I shot 3 weeks ago.

After the second deer I took with an early mentor, Rick - not the kind of bloke you want to cock up in front of, was shot too far back and a touch high I thought it was my marksmanship. I joined a rifle club and would shoot about 100 rounds of 308 a month in various positions at distances from 200-1000 yards in all weather and conditions. I continue to do so to this day and without wishing to sound like a twat I can now keep my rounds comfortably within a minute of an angle prone with sling or rest out to 1000 yards as long as the wind isn't being difficult. My best ever 10 to count on a still day at 1000 yards was 10 shot group measuring 10" at 1000 yards with a Enfield Enforcer.

I stress that I do not think I'm a brilliant shot by any means, merely that I think I have got to grips with breath, hold, trigger squeeze, etc in a general way and don't think that I should be shooting them 4" backwards at 100 yards.

I then proceeded to shoot five deer over the season, each one a consistent three or so inches to far back ending up with almost invariably with a shredded liver,some lung damage;sometimes I was fortunate with regard to splitting the diaphragm sometimes I was not.

Suspecting then that I am flinching I went back to the target range and tried all manner of wacky recommendations from the boys like having someone else load the rifle for you so that every so often there would be no round in the chamber and one could determine if one flinched when it went click rather than bang etc.

After a couple of months it was pronounced that I don't have a flinch.

With renewed confidence I then went out again and shot a fallow about 3" too far back..........

I cannot think what it can be apart from actually not knowing where to shoot the beast!

The maxim of "behind the shoulder, a third of the way up when broadside" does not help me much, to take a facetious example the ham is behind the shoulder about a third of the way up.

Could it be as bloody simple as not knowing where to aim on a beast? Is there a decent resource with pictures of deer in various conditions and at various angles complete with little dotted outlines of organs?

This is beginning to become an issue to be honest and any help and advice would be much appreciated.

Thank you,

Amir

It could be one (or both) of two different things.

(1) A physical problem when the shooter "pushes" or "pulls" a shot the same way almost everytime my first thought is trigger control and by that I mean how you actually pull the trigger --- what part of the finger used? Is the motion straight back or does the shooter put more pressure on one side or the other and in doing so slightly "push" or "pull" the shot in the opposite direction. This can be caused by a variety of things -- shape of the pistol grip, length of pull, trigger pull to light or to heavy, and even the pitch of the stock can be wrong.

(2) The other cause is a little different in that it's psychological ---- the shooter knows where to aim but, due to a lack of confidence, is afraid to miss so to avoid missing to the front he shoots toward the biggest part of the animal. This can be difficult to cure and the only way I know to stop is to aim not at just "behind the shoulder", but rather for a specific spot such a the crease made where the leg joins the body. One exercise that has helped is to make a farily large dark target and put some small white marker's around it near the edge and then try to hit the small targets.

I must also confess that I have the same problem (lack of confidence) if I don't shoot very much but all it takes to basically beat it into submission is a fairly regular practice regime.

A very large part of being a good shot is confidence.

Amir,

being a man of similar fate of yours, I can only add this to the pot,

I have been litteraly wacked ower the fingers for shooting a roe through the shoulder, my most loving fathers doing, so I am since that time some 20 years ago shy of shooting through the shoulder.

On my last tripp over I was fortunate enough to bag some beasts and all but 2 muntjacs where behind the shoulder blade hits, one really behind so to speak,

the two munties I had to really force my self to punch through the shoulder well knowing there full ability to take a hit and still run considerable distance.

Afterwards at the larder I got the "well those shoulder are going in the trash" but I am still happy as a clam that they did n´t run off and got lost on me/us.

So my advice to you is the same one I decided to give my self, follow the back side of the front leg up and when I have the cross hair centered in the body ie splitting it in half, take the shot.

No more fuss, aiming about or thinking, all the thinking should have been prior to taking the shot.

I think that Dr Bill above here states a good case for alternative reasons why hits migrate to the rear.

Ooooo update, reread the thread.

here you go mate, shoot straight:

http://www.jagareforbundet.se/...kolan/jaktskolan.htm

and for Roe in perticular:

http://www.jagareforbundet.se/jaktskolan/deere.htm

by moving your coursor across "visa träffläge" you get an anatomicaly correct pic interposed above the pic of the roe.

Btw have a go at the moose, do you realise now why I at times say that they are easy targets?

Best regards Chris

Maybe just put the vertical crosshair on the front leg and forget the 'crease behind the shoulder' routine?

I have also been guilty of this in the past and I think DB Bill's second point was the problem (for me).

quote:

rather for a specific spot such a the crease made where the leg joins the body.

Amir,

Bill's suggestion is very good. It's been referred to as the "Aim Small, Shoot (Hit) Small" concept and bantered about by several shooters in periodicals.

I suggest a Life Size Roe Deer target to practice with. They are large and for Bisley you can trim the target as required to fit the target frames. You can order them here:

https://ssl.kundenserver.de/s7...ata/index.shopscript

Also available are inserts "Speigel" for the main aiming area that can also be ordered to replace the primary shot out area of the target so you're not looking at a bunch of pasties (available in the same color) and trying to stick them together over a (hopefully) shot-out heart-lung area.

DJV Spiegel 1 Rehbock

We use these for our DJV Shooting here in The Fatherland and our group in Heidelberg uses them not only to practice for this particular event but also to confirm scope settings for the field.

This is a complex issue, involves good shooting techinque, a good dose of "Buck Fever" and field conditions that don't present the perfect standing braodside shot as we'd all prefer.

Like Bill, I'd suggest if you are always hitting several inches back it most probably a matter of trigger control and you are pulling the shot as you squeeze the trigger resulting (for a right-hander) the rifle being pulled off the aiming point as you squeeze/pull/jerk the trigger.



Another option is to try to shoot with BOTH eyes open; a techique not easily mastered with a high-powered scope - requring for some alot of practice.

The Swedes have a "Target Clock" for their Moose shooting that uses the techique of imagining and shooting at the heart from all angles, a good techique for those who can master it. Apparently some cannot imagine the heart placed in the body of an animal. Perhaps Chris can give you a hand with these - I think they were available from Norma?.

These issues affect us all; I too, had a spell where I was simply putting the X-hairs on the "target" instead of aiming precisely. Getting back to the basics has apparently cured this.

Amir,

Your problem is that you do not have a synthetic stainless .25-06

Only Joking.


Is the entry and exit too far back?

Often a broadside deer is not really broadside.

Shooting a paper deer target it is only a 2D target and does not account for the physiology of the animal.

If a deer is facing to the to the right and even slightly quartering towards you and you shoot just behind the shoulder the bullet will most likely burst the rumen and exit 'back'.

Most 'broad side' shots in the field will involve shooting though at least one shoulder to get a 'perfect' Heart/Lung shot.

If the deer is leaning forward to feed or is mid stride using the back of the leg will result in a shot that is several inches either fore or aft of the perfect shot, when the leg is forward of the neutral position it is easy to see but when it is to the rear it is somewhat harder to judge.

Have a look at these links Anatomy
Shot Placement 1
Shot Placement 2

quote:

Originally posted by Husqvarna M98:
So my advice to you is the same one I decided to give my self, follow the back side of the front leg up and when I have the cross hair centered in the body ie splitting it in half, take the shot.

No more fuss, aiming about or thinking, all the thinking should have been prior to taking the shot.

Thats good advice, you get a defined target. I just go straight up from the leg not on the backside.

As by Gerrys mentioning

älgklockan: http://www.jagareforbundet.se/docs/algklockan.pdf

there is one made for bears to,

when taking angled shots, it´s a good idea to have had had a look at the "clock" above.

Best regards Chris

Have to agree with DJM, the problem is the wrong rifle, go and buy a 25-06 this weekend!!!

No, but seriously, as DJM stated again what appears to be broadside on when you take the shot is very often not, thus a shot will break a shoulder.

I always waited with clients until forelegs overlapped each other, then wait for head up and squeeze (head down stomach pushed forward and I never liked stomach contents on hands before breakfast!!).

Sounds like your accuracy is spot on, if it worries you that much maybe neck shoot them???

Perhaps it will help to familiarize yourself with a deer's anatomy. This is the shot I practice and prefer : taking out the aorta knot. No heavy bones are hit (small exit hole) and it generally kills on the spot.

Notice that the aiming point is significantly more forward and higher than you're used to.
This is how a Roedeer's heart looks afterwards. To enhance visibility, I slipped a piece of white paper behind the bullet hole at the base of the aorta. This shot is supposed to cut off blood flow to the brain at once, inducing immediate coma. In this case, the animal was dead before hitting the ground

As mentioned by Gerry, we practice quite a lot on the above shown roe deer. If you look at the "bulls eye" or "10", you just need to move upward from the rear side of the front leg and shoot right into the middle.

This "high heart shot" was choosen because not only does it sever the aorta from the heart, it also allows for the largest amount of error into all directions: Too high = spine shot, too low = heart, to far to the rear = liver, too far to the front = still lung and shoulder; all shots are deadly.

You practice that several hundred times until it becomes an automatism. From what I read your shooting skills are not the issue, MOA is far better than necessary for a clean kill. It rather seems that you need to learn about the exact position of the organs in a deer's body.

The DJV (German hunters federation) targets can be purchased here or printed, here is another one with the chamois:

Amir, this is an interesting one. You need to have fixed into your brain that you are not shooting at a fixed point on an animals hide, but on a fixed point inside the chest cavity. The route the bullet needs to take to hit that fixed point inside the animal will always vary slightly.

As the lads have said, it is very rare for any deer to be standing perfectly broadside. You need to train your eye / brain to quickly recognise which slight angle the deer is standing at and then to adjust you point of aim accordingly. You need to put the shot through the near side shoulder on a deer which is quartering towards you, or to shoot for the off side shoulder on a deer which is quartering away.

It takes a while to achieve this, but it should become instinctive.

Very good thread and quite interesting. I'll be the first to admit that I have also had 'a couple' hit too far back. I think it's ingrained in me not to bust or tear the shoulder apart and waste meat. And a very good point on being broadside, rarely are they perfectly broadside so you really have to be careful. I 'crowd' the shoulder, much better than even a piece of the bullet touching the diaphram which separates the paunch. One last comment, when they're always stuffing their faces this time of year that paunch pushes hard against the diaphram and is a good portion into the chest cavity, touch it and you make spinat (spinach) Waidmannsheil, Dom.

amir

it sounds to me as though you are yanking the trigger a bit due to the excitment of the stalk/hunt, in denmark it is called buckfever and most of us get it to some degree.
i have promised myself to stop when i dont feel it anymore.

while your back is acting up this is good for practise to imprint the perfect picture in your mind, now do it a 1000 times and it should help.

http://jaegerflash.pro.dir.dk/jagtskolen/talme.asp
its in danish but you will get the idea, just click the rifle after each shot and try again.

either which way do it while you are at work as well, a fun little toy to train with.

best regards

peter

A right handed man would pull shots to the right if it was trigger control - I suspect if you are getting this issue on both sides of the deer it isn't trigger control.

Personally the advice to shoot 1/3 of the way up makes me shoot low, I changed to shooting just under 1/2 and get good placement - but this was in the days when 4x scopes were recommend!

Andre Mertens diagram is very helpful, the shoulder & leg are two side of a triangle, shoot on the third side 1/2 way up, this is all visible with a 8x scope and resolves the problem, if I deliver the shot correctly - but that's another issue.

When I first stalked fallow on fields I wondered why my shots were further back than where I was aiming. I realised there were 2 reasons.

Herd deer such as fallow are often grazing. The dynamics of the herd (moving around) are such that when a deer comes clear it might be grazing. I never like shooting at grazing deer (ie head down) and it is because the front leg is moved backwards. If you then move 'just behind the shoulder' you are in fact very near if not on the liver and rumen.

Fallow have a distinctive line where the pale underpart merges with the dark upper coat. It's about perfect height for an aiming mark BUT it only provides a vertical mark. It is so distinctive that it's easy to concentrate too much on that and not enough on lateral, sort of target fixation

Cures therefore are to visualise the internals of the deer and not be hidebound by leg position. Also forget 'just behind the shoulder' Finally unless there is no alternative try not to shoot deer with head down.

Finally there is no substitute for taking your time. I get slower and slower as I go on. You will learn when a deer is going to move and when it's not.

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:


Cures therefore are to visualise the internals of the deer and not be hidebound by leg position. Also forget 'just behind the shoulder' Finally unless there is no alternative try not to shoot deer with head down.

Finally there is no substitute for taking your time. I get slower and slower as I go on. You will learn when a deer is going to move and when it's not.

nicely put 1894

another thing Ghubert
with out going back through all your posts to find what set up you hav and wot work you hav had done to your rifle
hav you ever had the trigger lightened
most people learn to shoot with a slightly heavier trigger than they need to, but as you are being mentored at the time and extra pressure on you not to cock up, added to the fact you hav deer infront of you to shoot, your whole stance, stress levels and attention to detail will change in an instance as the deer move
this certainly helps you to rush the shot with out realising it and plus you hav a bigger target to aim at which does not have a cross or circle to mark out the bulls eye
so invertedly your actual shot placement might of been correct but your aim point slightly back
failing that aim 3 inches further to the front of the chest

My penny's worth.

Looking at the Bisley Roe Deer targets - the scoring rings, they appear, to my mind anyway, skewed to the animal's rear.

Maybe, subconciously, you have a target aim point for hand -eye co-ordination purposes, a little too far back. Other possibilities are jerking the trigger.

I presume you are right handed, then if the shots go to the right of aim point, this could be an explanation. Coupled with a trigger which could benefit from being adjusted. Is it heavy?

Re-reading. If it was a question of this right handed thing, then you should occasionally hit the shoulder-ribs area too far forward, depending upon which direction the deer was facing.

Like many others posting here, when I started out, stalking Red Deer, I was taught to place my shots on a broadside animal thus:

Follow the back face of the front leg, go up a height = 0.333 body depth at short ranges (less than 100 - 120 yards). At longer sporting shot distances, say 150 - 250 yards, follow the same procedure but aim at a point (on same alignment) at a height = 0.5 body depth.

The bullet drop, with a rifle zeroed to shoot 1.0 to 2.0 inches high at 100 yards, would do the rest, and the shot would hit the vital zone.

BTW, I have found this method also works, with adjustment, when the deer's body is orientated at an angle. In these cases, I angle my shot to 'get' the off, or far, side front leg / shoulder - playing the diagonals.

Doing this, your bullet is likely to traverse the chest cavity and damage the liver,lungs and heart.

Seems like an easy fix...you described your problem as shooting too far back...3" too far back, to be precise. Wouldn't aiming 3" in front of your normal aiming spot correct your problem?

quote:

the scoring rings, they appear, to my mind anyway, skewed to the animal's rear.

rob,

You are correct; they rings are skewed, but the rings are used for scoring purposes, so they have to be; well, equally sized.

Having said that at 100 meters unless the conditions are absolutely perfect and you've at least 12X+ scope you cannot see the rings anyway.

For Deer shooting, not competition purposes - since you can't see the rings but the animal very well. So using the target to plunck shots just at the point of the elbow or a tad higher makes for good training.

I reckon you are going to water when the live target presents and are pulling on the trigger instead of squeezing...buck fever!

Forget about how good a shot at targets you (we) are its the live targets that count.

In the real world, deer seldom pose perfectly broadside on...This is compounded by the fact they often only present a limited shooting opportunity.

So if you are under pressure to complete a cull and want to end up with carcasses in the freezer, you need to accept that sometimes you have to take a less than text book shot, and expect a little carcass damage.

As others have suggested, I would aim forward onto the shoulder more and start thinking about where the off side shoulder is..

Also if carcass damage is critical, consider taking frontal or rear (high) neck shots if circumstances permit..

I don't care for neck shots on the larger species, but on roe and fallow does and prickets, I find them very effective, with
minimal chances of wounding..

Here's a drawing that illustrates what has been said above regarding the 3D relation between POI vs. aiming angle.

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:

Herd deer such as fallow are often grazing. The dynamics of the herd (moving around) are such that when a deer comes clear it might be grazing. I never like shooting at grazing deer (ie head down) and it is because the front leg is moved backwards. If you then move 'just behind the shoulder' you are in fact very near if not on the liver and rumen.

Absolutely.

If you look at deer grazing the legs will be slightly splayed when its head s down. Next time we put a besastin the chiller or on the ground, (saturday hopefully) then take a look at how mobile the shoulder blade is in reality over the rib cage. You will see it move significantly. For this reason I usually tru to alert deer a little before taking the sot so that I don't have this problem.

FB

Hallo,

any one seen or heard of Amir,

mate you have some good advice here.

Kiri just to clarify for a stumbling Swede, du you call out to the deer, like Oiihh or give of a small whistle?

/Chris

He is around recovering from a medical problem.

He will be back in full force soon from what I understand.

I Spoke to Amir/Amy yesterday. She seems in fine fettle and the Gender reassignment surgery went well . As you can imagine she's spending a lot of time laying down at the moment.

With regards to the deer, I tend to avoid a whistle as I found after a while the deer associate the sound with trouble (especially in park scenarios) so a knock on the stock or a grunt/snort gets their attenton the same way.

Dunno if it makes a difference but then, we are all about theories round here .
FB

OH dear "Gender reassingment"

I dont think that was what he signed for on the consent form ......

He will definitely need to put in for a VARIATION then...

From his last posting he was thinking of a "Caliber reassingment" as well

Over to you AMIR

quote:

Originally posted by londonhunter:
OH dear "Gender reassingment"

I dont think that was what he signed for on the consent form ......

He will definitely need to put in for a VARIATION then...

From his last posting he was thinking of a "Caliber reassingment" as well

Over to you AMIR

that would be going for a bigbore, wouldent it ?

i hope all is well and he/she soon will be back on his feet, now after the transformation would any of you mind sharing a room with him

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by DB Bill:
It could be one (or both) of two different things.

(1) A physical problem when the shooter "pushes" or "pulls" a shot the same way almost everytime my first thought is trigger control and by that I mean how you actually pull the trigger --- what part of the finger used? Is the motion straight back or does the shooter put more pressure on one side or the other and in doing so slightly "push" or "pull" the shot in the opposite direction. This can be caused by a variety of things -- shape of the pistol grip, length of pull, trigger pull to light or to heavy, and even the pitch of the stock can be wrong.

(2) The other cause is a little different in that it's psychological ---- the shooter knows where to aim but, due to a lack of confidence, is afraid to miss so to avoid missing to the front he shoots toward the biggest part of the animal. This can be difficult to cure and the only way I know to stop is to aim not at just "behind the shoulder", but rather for a specific spot such a the crease made where the leg joins the body. One exercise that has helped is to make a farily large dark target and put some small white marker's around it near the edge and then try to hit the small targets.

I must also confess that I have the same problem (lack of confidence) if I don't shoot very much but all it takes to basically beat it into submission is a fairly regular practice regime.

A very large part of being a good shot is confidence.

Thanks for posting Bill, I am not sure whether I pull the shot, unless it is buck fever induced, but certainly your second paragraph sounds like good advice.

Regards,

Amir

quote:

Originally posted by Husqvarna M98:
Amir,

being a man of similar fate of yours, I can only add this to the pot,

I have been litteraly wacked ower the fingers for shooting a roe through the shoulder, my most loving fathers doing, so I am since that time some 20 years ago shy of shooting through the shoulder.

On my last tripp over I was fortunate enough to bag some beasts and all but 2 muntjacs where behind the shoulder blade hits, one really behind so to speak,

the two munties I had to really force my self to punch through the shoulder well knowing there full ability to take a hit and still run considerable distance.

Afterwards at the larder I got the "well those shoulder are going in the trash" but I am still happy as a clam that they did n´t run off and got lost on me/us.

So my advice to you is the same one I decided to give my self, follow the back side of the front leg up and when I have the cross hair centered in the body ie splitting it in half, take the shot.

No more fuss, aiming about or thinking, all the thinking should have been prior to taking the shot.

I think that Dr Bill above here states a good case for alternative reasons why hits migrate to the rear.

Ooooo update, reread the thread.

here you go mate, shoot straight:

http://www.jagareforbundet.se/...kolan/jaktskolan.htm

and for Roe in perticular:

http://www.jagareforbundet.se/jaktskolan/deere.htm

by moving your coursor across "visa träffläge" you get an anatomicaly correct pic interposed above the pic of the roe.

Btw have a go at the moose, do you realise now why I at times say that they are easy targets?

Best regards Chris

Hi Chris!

thanks for those links mate, very useful indeed!

I'm glad, in a perverse sort of way, that i'm not the only one with a mortal fear of punching through the shoulder, I think all this business stems from the the fact that a good deal of the reason why I shoot deer ( and furred game, feathered game, fish, etc..) is eating the catch afterwards.

Your advice about the aiming points on deer are well noted, I do think I need to put some work into deer anatomy.

ATB,

amir

quote:

Originally posted by Gerry:

quote:

rather for a specific spot such a the crease made where the leg joins the body.

Amir,

Bill's suggestion is very good. It's been referred to as the "Aim Small, Shoot (Hit) Small" concept and bantered about by several shooters in periodicals.

I suggest a Life Size Roe Deer target to practice with. They are large and for Bisley you can trim the target as required to fit the target frames. You can order them here:

https://ssl.kundenserver.de/s7...ata/index.shopscript

Also available are inserts "Speigel" for the main aiming area that can also be ordered to replace the primary shot out area of the target so you're not looking at a bunch of pasties (available in the same color) and trying to stick them together over a (hopefully) shot-out heart-lung area.

DJV Spiegel 1 Rehbock

We use these for our DJV Shooting here in The Fatherland and our group in Heidelberg uses them not only to practice for this particular event but also to confirm scope settings for the field.

This is a complex issue, involves good shooting techinque, a good dose of "Buck Fever" and field conditions that don't present the perfect standing braodside shot as we'd all prefer.

Like Bill, I'd suggest if you are always hitting several inches back it most probably a matter of trigger control and you are pulling the shot as you squeeze the trigger resulting (for a right-hander) the rifle being pulled off the aiming point as you squeeze/pull/jerk the trigger.



Another option is to try to shoot with BOTH eyes open; a techique not easily mastered with a high-powered scope - requring for some alot of practice.

The Swedes have a "Target Clock" for their Moose shooting that uses the techique of imagining and shooting at the heart from all angles, a good techique for those who can master it. Apparently some cannot imagine the heart placed in the body of an animal. Perhaps Chris can give you a hand with these - I think they were available from Norma?.

These issues affect us all; I too, had a spell where I was simply putting the X-hairs on the "target" instead of aiming precisely. Getting back to the basics has apparently cured this.

Thanks for the Links Gerry I've ordered some of the Deer and Boar targets for use at Bisley

I rang them up to find out how big their backing boards are and was informed that they don't allow the targets for anything other than zeroing!

I feel the need to do a very thorough zeroing session quite soon

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the technique aspect, One thing thaat I am sure of is that the deer have not all been facing the same direction, IE head to the left and hindquarters to the right, this makes me think that it is me not knowing where exactly to aim a more likely culprit.

Your point about consciously aiming for a point on the beast rather than the "vital area" is well taken.

Thanks again buddy,

Amir

quote:

Originally posted by DJM:
Amir,

Your problem is that you do not have a synthetic stainless .25-06

Wait a minute!

You're right! All the shots I am unhappy with were not made with a 25.06! Admittedly all the shots I am happy about were not made with a 25.06!

The uncertainty goes on.....

quote:

Originally posted by DJM:

Is the entry and exit too far back?

Quite often, yes mate. I do tend to wait for the deer to get broadside, a tendency that has become reinforced by shooting a few too far back

quote:

Originally posted by DJM:
Often a broadside deer is not really broadside.

Shooting a paper deer target it is only a 2D target and does not account for the physiology of the animal.

If a deer is facing to the to the right and even slightly quartering towards you and you shoot just behind the shoulder the bullet will most likely burst the rumen and exit 'back'.

Most 'broad side' shots in the field will involve shooting though at least one shoulder to get a 'perfect' Heart/Lung shot.

If the deer is leaning forward to feed or is mid stride using the back of the leg will result in a shot that is several inches either fore or aft of the perfect shot, when the leg is forward of the neutral position it is easy to see but when it is to the rear it is somewhat harder to judge.

Have a look at these links Anatomy
Shot Placement 1
Shot Placement 2

thanks for the links and the pointers mate, I'll get it eventually i'm sure..

ATB,

Amir

quote:

Originally posted by nightwalker uk:
Have to agree with DJM, the problem is the wrong rifle, go and buy a 25-06 this weekend!!!

No, but seriously, as DJM stated again what appears to be broadside on when you take the shot is very often not, thus a shot will break a shoulder.

I always waited with clients until forelegs overlapped each other, then wait for head up and squeeze (head down stomach pushed forward and I never liked stomach contents on hands before breakfast!!).

Sounds like your accuracy is spot on, if it worries you that much maybe neck shoot them???

Good point about the head up/down difference.

It's the sort of thing that would have taken me a while to guess

Thanks mate,

Amir

quote:

Originally posted by Andre Mertens:
Perhaps it will help to familiarize yourself with a deer's anatomy. This is the shot I practice and prefer : taking out the aorta knot. No heavy bones are hit (small exit hole) and it generally kills on the spot.

Notice that the aiming point is significantly more forward and higher than you're used to.
This is how a Roedeer's heart looks afterwards. To enhance visibility, I slipped a piece of white paper behind the bullet hole at the base of the aorta. This shot is supposed to cut off blood flow to the brain at once, inducing immediate coma. In this case, the animal was dead before hitting the ground

Thanks Andre, I think my deer anatomy is perhaps not quite up to scratch. The diagram and photo you posted are particularly informative. I had of course heard of the high heart shot but did not know where the aim point should be on the live, standing animal.

The roe deer diagram you posted is rather good as well.

I confess that I have no idea where else to go about getting materials such as have been posted by yourself and others on this thread.

The deerstalker books I have seen don't seem to have much on it and neither do the rags, you help is very much appreciated.

With regards,

Amir

quote:

Originally posted by DUK:


As mentioned by Gerry, we practice quite a lot on the above shown roe deer. If you look at the "bulls eye" or "10", you just need to move upward from the rear side of the front leg and shoot right into the middle.

This "high heart shot" was choosen because not only does it sever the aorta from the heart, it also allows for the largest amount of error into all directions: Too high = spine shot, too low = heart, to far to the rear = liver, too far to the front = still lung and shoulder; all shots are deadly.

You practice that several hundred times until it becomes an automatism. From what I read your shooting skills are not the issue, MOA is far better than necessary for a clean kill. It rather seems that you need to learn about the exact position of the organs in a deer's body.

The DJV (German hunters federation) targets can be purchased here or printed, here is another one with the chamois:

Thank You DUK, I will certainly be investing in a few of those targets for the range. the high heart shot sounds a good one.

With my rifle sighted in 1.5" high at 100 yards, if I hold "the third of the way up" ie on the middle of the heart, the impact will be high heart between 70-140 yards, heart out to 200 and lungs out to 250 with no change to aim point right?

I think I can cope with that to be getting on with.

Regards,

Amir

quote:

Originally posted by Dom:
Very good thread and quite interesting. I'll be the first to admit that I have also had 'a couple' hit too far back. I think it's ingrained in me not to bust or tear the shoulder apart and waste meat. And a very good point on being broadside, rarely are they perfectly broadside so you really have to be careful. I 'crowd' the shoulder, much better than even a piece of the bullet touching the diaphram which separates the paunch. One last comment, when they're always stuffing their faces this time of year that paunch pushes hard against the diaphram and is a good portion into the chest cavity, touch it and you make spinat (spinach) Waidmannsheil, Dom.

Thanks Dom, you have put a lot of what I think contributes to the problem very well in your post. Again things like the position of the internal organs in relation to the external landmarks are things I want to think about before I have a skittish deer in the sight!

Regards,

Amir

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
amir

it sounds to me as though you are yanking the trigger a bit due to the excitment of the stalk/hunt, in denmark it is called buckfever and most of us get it to some degree.
i have promised myself to stop when i dont feel it anymore.

while your back is acting up this is good for practise to imprint the perfect picture in your mind, now do it a 1000 times and it should help.

http://jaegerflash.pro.dir.dk/jagtskolen/talme.asp
its in danish but you will get the idea, just click the rifle after each shot and try again.

either which way do it while you are at work as well, a fun little toy to train with.

best regards

peter

Thanks Peter

I've just got a lifetime's worth of Roe, Bear, Moose and Boar in the bag between those links Chris and You posted.

Will post results!

Thank you,

Amir

You cost me an early night tonight with the link to the 4 box target /species, I have just torn myself away from it, the only bit missing is the smell of burned powder!

AAARRRGGHH!, NOW THE MISSUS HAS THE MOUSE!